should YOU pay?
dɐɹɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʍ
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,522
Likes: 1
From: Lexington, KY
There was a time when Unions did have a purpose but it was long ago and now they are sucking the life out of companies, making it impossible for companies to remain competitive.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 29,869
Likes: 3,489
agreed, good fix. You are one of many technicians who echo the same sentiment..... of course they were great back then, but now....
How it should be done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF6lx...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF6lx...layer_embedded
Miracle on the Rhine and Miracle on the Han were not accomplished without the sweat, blood and sacrifice of many people who worked hard for their countries and their people.
I would say send them overseas to learn, but you can't teach old dogs new tricks. It's best to just let them out to the pasture... restructure the top management at each of the Detroit 3 and start over.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 288
Likes: 9
Here is the daily schedule for a typical union worker:
9:00-10:00AM Coffee time
10:01-10:15AM Work
10:16-1:00PM Lunch
1:01-1:30PM Toilet
1:31-1:45PM Work
1:46-3:00PM Plan the next strike
3:01-4:30PM Nap
4:31-5:00PM Get ready to head home
CNN Money article laying out how it's not just about Detroit -->
http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/s...ers/index.html
Extremely disappointed in CNN. This data only depicts one side of the picture.
1. Title "Motor City is the U.S.A."
Isn't that the mentality that GM had for the last several decades? "What's good for GM is good for America"?? They built what they wanted to build, made the consumers buy what they wanted them to buy, because they had this wrongly perceived mentality that they ARE America. Maybe so back then, but not anymore with global competition. I'm sure they are painfully aware of this now.
2. The data source is the Center for Automotive Research, which is heavily funded by the Detroit Three. Combine this with the title, and I don't need to say more.
3. The data includes ALL people employed in the auto industry, including foreign companies. There is no differentiation noted in the chart. Again, combined with the title, an unsuspecting reader may be led to believe that "Motor City" feeds all these people.
Bottom line is that this piece reeks of bias. I'm very disappointed in CNN right now.
Granted, should the Detroit Three fail, it would have a ripple effect on the entire industry. But competing brands are in relatively good standing and are not on the brink of bankruptcy like the Detroit Three. There should have been a differentiation noted in the article, instead of grouping it all together and making it sound like the Detroit Three feeds all these people.
http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/s...ers/index.html
Extremely disappointed in CNN. This data only depicts one side of the picture.
1. Title "Motor City is the U.S.A."
Isn't that the mentality that GM had for the last several decades? "What's good for GM is good for America"?? They built what they wanted to build, made the consumers buy what they wanted them to buy, because they had this wrongly perceived mentality that they ARE America. Maybe so back then, but not anymore with global competition. I'm sure they are painfully aware of this now.
2. The data source is the Center for Automotive Research, which is heavily funded by the Detroit Three. Combine this with the title, and I don't need to say more.
3. The data includes ALL people employed in the auto industry, including foreign companies. There is no differentiation noted in the chart. Again, combined with the title, an unsuspecting reader may be led to believe that "Motor City" feeds all these people.
Bottom line is that this piece reeks of bias. I'm very disappointed in CNN right now.
Granted, should the Detroit Three fail, it would have a ripple effect on the entire industry. But competing brands are in relatively good standing and are not on the brink of bankruptcy like the Detroit Three. There should have been a differentiation noted in the article, instead of grouping it all together and making it sound like the Detroit Three feeds all these people.
3:00 Go home.
3:30 Get a call from supervisor like clockwork, because a Material Handler is needed.
3:45 Come back to work, literally move a liquid container off a truck and onto the dock, be paid 4-hours of call-in pay for 5 minutes of work.
3:46 Another person is called in to move it to the designated location, again, for a 4-hour call-in pay.
Everyday, this happens. Why? Because there is absolutely no flexibility in a union environment.
Nobody but this guy is allowed to handle the materials.
Let's not even get into how everybody stands around and does nothing until this container is moved. Thus, lost productivity = lost profit for company = costs passed onto consumers.
Then there are people paid to snoop around to look for violations and file grievances.
And they wonder why they lost their competitive advantages a long time ago.
Registered but harmless
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 14,888
Likes: 1,164
From: Los Angeles, CA
Yep and how about this? True story.
3:00 Go home.
3:30 Get a call from supervisor like clockwork, because a Material Handler is needed.
3:45 Come back to work, literally move a liquid container off a truck and onto the dock, be paid 4-hours of call-in pay for 5 minutes of work.
3:46 Another person is called in to move it to the designated location, again, for a 4-hour call-in pay.
Everyday, this happens. Why? Because there is absolutely no flexibility in a union environment.
Nobody but this guy is allowed to handle the materials.
Let's not even get into how everybody stands around and does nothing until this container is moved. Thus, lost productivity = lost profit for company = costs passed onto consumers.
3:00 Go home.
3:30 Get a call from supervisor like clockwork, because a Material Handler is needed.
3:45 Come back to work, literally move a liquid container off a truck and onto the dock, be paid 4-hours of call-in pay for 5 minutes of work.
3:46 Another person is called in to move it to the designated location, again, for a 4-hour call-in pay.
Everyday, this happens. Why? Because there is absolutely no flexibility in a union environment.
Nobody but this guy is allowed to handle the materials.
Let's not even get into how everybody stands around and does nothing until this container is moved. Thus, lost productivity = lost profit for company = costs passed onto consumers.
I had this same problem when I was a non-union forklift driver asked to accompany a driver to unload two trailers at a union warehouse in the early '80s.
Neither my driver nor I could unload the trailers, nor could we do any work more than a few feet away from the ramp into the trailers. The union forklift drivers had to remove the pallets and place them, etc. etc. It took 3 days to unload the first trailer-- we just counted the pallets and pieces, and my boss wanted both the driver and me there for the unloading at this warehouse.
The second trailer took a day and a half to empty.
FYI- It took us less than 2 hours to load each trailer originally, and I could and did unload trailers with palletized loads and some loose items in about an hour, including a break.
Unions have lost their usefulness for professional and manufacturing industries, although they may still be good for the agricultural and some service industries.
Administrator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 26,326
Likes: 131
From: Northwest IN
Senior Moderator
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 17,085
Likes: 740
From: Brooklyn, NY USA
I know the most recent meeting came and went, but this was an interesting read in the 12/1 edition of Automotive news:
Pretend it's December 2009
Keith Crain
Automotive News
December 1, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
It's a year from now.
Back in 2008, Congress decided to let the auto companies fend for themselves.
General Motors filed for Chapter 11 in early 2009. Floor traffic stopped in showrooms. GM factories shut down, and soon suppliers started to shut down as well.
Six weeks later, Ford Motor Co. had to suspend operations because many of its major suppliers had gone dark. Chrysler LLC suspended operations at about the same time. It had run out of money, and owner Cerberus wasn't interested in supplying Chrysler with any more cash.
With the huge losses from GMAC Financial Services as well as Chrysler, Cerberus folded quickly. Another Wall Street firm disappeared, but this time there was no federal rescue.
Nearly 10,000 car dealers ran out of new-car inventory. Some became used-car dealers and continued to service their old franchises until the parts ran out. Others continued to operate with Asian and European franchises that they already had. Thousands of dealership employees were let go. They weren't needed anymore.
Tens of thousands of autoworkers, mainly UAW, were sent home with only unemployment comp to help. The companies were bankrupt and could pay no benefits. Pensions were paid out of the separate pension plans, but current employees were out of luck.
In a few months, it was time for GM to declare Chapter 7. GM sold Europe, Brazil and Australia, which could still produce products locally.
GM let go just about everybody, not just assembly line workers. Hundreds of thousands of white-collar and blue-collar workers, as well as tens of thousands of dealership employees, in states across the country went looking for unemployment benefits.
They were joined by out-of-luck former employees of Ford, Chrysler and auto suppliers. Before long, the unemployment rolls swelled by millions.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan shut down North American manufacturing. Six months later, they were able to replace bankrupt suppliers in the United States with Japanese suppliers. They got their production back up to speed, with much higher import content.
Almost a year after General Motors declared Chapter 11, millions of workers are unemployed, hundreds of suppliers have disappeared, and 6,000 dealerships have shuttered their doors.
The United States is in a major depression.
Now tell me once again why Congress doesn't want to give the domestic auto industry financial assistance.
Pretend it's December 2009
Keith Crain
Automotive News
December 1, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
It's a year from now.
Back in 2008, Congress decided to let the auto companies fend for themselves.
General Motors filed for Chapter 11 in early 2009. Floor traffic stopped in showrooms. GM factories shut down, and soon suppliers started to shut down as well.
Six weeks later, Ford Motor Co. had to suspend operations because many of its major suppliers had gone dark. Chrysler LLC suspended operations at about the same time. It had run out of money, and owner Cerberus wasn't interested in supplying Chrysler with any more cash.
With the huge losses from GMAC Financial Services as well as Chrysler, Cerberus folded quickly. Another Wall Street firm disappeared, but this time there was no federal rescue.
Nearly 10,000 car dealers ran out of new-car inventory. Some became used-car dealers and continued to service their old franchises until the parts ran out. Others continued to operate with Asian and European franchises that they already had. Thousands of dealership employees were let go. They weren't needed anymore.
Tens of thousands of autoworkers, mainly UAW, were sent home with only unemployment comp to help. The companies were bankrupt and could pay no benefits. Pensions were paid out of the separate pension plans, but current employees were out of luck.
In a few months, it was time for GM to declare Chapter 7. GM sold Europe, Brazil and Australia, which could still produce products locally.
GM let go just about everybody, not just assembly line workers. Hundreds of thousands of white-collar and blue-collar workers, as well as tens of thousands of dealership employees, in states across the country went looking for unemployment benefits.
They were joined by out-of-luck former employees of Ford, Chrysler and auto suppliers. Before long, the unemployment rolls swelled by millions.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan shut down North American manufacturing. Six months later, they were able to replace bankrupt suppliers in the United States with Japanese suppliers. They got their production back up to speed, with much higher import content.
Almost a year after General Motors declared Chapter 11, millions of workers are unemployed, hundreds of suppliers have disappeared, and 6,000 dealerships have shuttered their doors.
The United States is in a major depression.
Now tell me once again why Congress doesn't want to give the domestic auto industry financial assistance.
Senior Moderator
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 17,085
Likes: 740
From: Brooklyn, NY USA
Reviving Detroit must start with the UAW
Jack Fitzgerald
Automotive News
December 1, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
At their Nov. 20 press conference, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said they wanted to help the auto industry if the industry helps itself.
They requested a plan for success from the Detroit 3 that would convince Congress that the domestic automakers can become and remain viable after the assistance. If the plan, due Tuesday, Dec. 2, shows that the Detroit 3 would be viable with whatever aid is necessary, Congress will reconvene.
Pelosi and Reid may have to reach out to UAW President Ron Gettelfinger because there will be no success without strong leadership from the UAW — think of the Chrysler loan guarantees of 1979 and UAW President Doug Fraser leading the way.
The Detroit 3 are in trouble because for more than 25 years, they built products that ranked poorly in Consumer Reports' ratings, cost billions in warranty and recall expenses and caused extraordinary losses of market share.
Detroit must produce competitive products to be viable. To do that, it has to start with a competitive overhead. That will require a huge change in the interaction between the UAW and the Detroit 3.
Cut pay and benefits
Toyota is the No. 1 competitor worldwide. The Detroit 3 must benchmark Toyota. They must install the Toyota Production System, work rules and job classifications — which will eliminate the paid positions of union officials in the plants that do no productive work. The Detroit 3 must use Toyota's pay scale for everyone from the CEO down.
That will mean lower pay and reduced benefits for directors, officers, managers and active and retired employees. And there must be no Jobs Bank or make-work projects for UAW members, who must run the plant as if they owned it.
Management must design the vehicles and the production process with UAW input, but the UAW must lead the effort on the shop floor to produce the highest quality worldwide. Quality is better than it was but not what it needs to be. Management and the UAW must unite in a partnership dedicated to that goal, just as they did at General Motors' Saturn plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., in 1990.
For four years, Saturn produced cars with top reliability scores as measured by Consumer Reports. Unfortunately, the plant reverted to a standard UAW contract, and Saturn's reliability scores suffered.
By contrast, the New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. plant in Fremont, Calif., is a great success. It has been a GM-Toyota joint venture since 1984. Currently, it builds the Toyota Corolla and Tacoma and the Pontiac Vibe. GM, Toyota and the UAW produce high-quality products that are very competitive. The vehicles earn high marks in Consumer Reports every year.
Get GMAC back
Toyota, Honda and BMW export vehicles from American plants. Why can't the Detroit 3 do that? Why can't we make inexpensive cars here and ship them to emerging markets?
Congress is offering to help if the industry will help itself. The UAW must seize this opportunity and run with it. Management will have no choice but to go along. Both will make considerably less in pay and benefits. But if they fulfill their responsibilities, they should do well and make more in profit-sharing. Plus a competitive company offers real job security.
Something that should not require additional action from Congress is the restoration and strengthening of the Detroit 3's captive finance companies. Cerberus must sell GMAC back to GM, and Chrysler must own Chrysler Financial.
I can't get the front page of the Nov. 19 Baltimore Sun out of my mind. There is a picture of a man sitting in his kitchen wondering what's going to happen to him after 32 years with GM. He's 52 years old. On the same page is a picture of the Detroit CEOs, each one a millionaire, asking Congress for assistance.
We must do all that we can to keep our people on the job. The UAW can and should lead the way.
Jack Fitzgerald
Automotive News
December 1, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
At their Nov. 20 press conference, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said they wanted to help the auto industry if the industry helps itself.
They requested a plan for success from the Detroit 3 that would convince Congress that the domestic automakers can become and remain viable after the assistance. If the plan, due Tuesday, Dec. 2, shows that the Detroit 3 would be viable with whatever aid is necessary, Congress will reconvene.
Pelosi and Reid may have to reach out to UAW President Ron Gettelfinger because there will be no success without strong leadership from the UAW — think of the Chrysler loan guarantees of 1979 and UAW President Doug Fraser leading the way.
The Detroit 3 are in trouble because for more than 25 years, they built products that ranked poorly in Consumer Reports' ratings, cost billions in warranty and recall expenses and caused extraordinary losses of market share.
Detroit must produce competitive products to be viable. To do that, it has to start with a competitive overhead. That will require a huge change in the interaction between the UAW and the Detroit 3.
Cut pay and benefits
Toyota is the No. 1 competitor worldwide. The Detroit 3 must benchmark Toyota. They must install the Toyota Production System, work rules and job classifications — which will eliminate the paid positions of union officials in the plants that do no productive work. The Detroit 3 must use Toyota's pay scale for everyone from the CEO down.
That will mean lower pay and reduced benefits for directors, officers, managers and active and retired employees. And there must be no Jobs Bank or make-work projects for UAW members, who must run the plant as if they owned it.
Management must design the vehicles and the production process with UAW input, but the UAW must lead the effort on the shop floor to produce the highest quality worldwide. Quality is better than it was but not what it needs to be. Management and the UAW must unite in a partnership dedicated to that goal, just as they did at General Motors' Saturn plant in Spring Hill, Tenn., in 1990.
For four years, Saturn produced cars with top reliability scores as measured by Consumer Reports. Unfortunately, the plant reverted to a standard UAW contract, and Saturn's reliability scores suffered.
By contrast, the New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. plant in Fremont, Calif., is a great success. It has been a GM-Toyota joint venture since 1984. Currently, it builds the Toyota Corolla and Tacoma and the Pontiac Vibe. GM, Toyota and the UAW produce high-quality products that are very competitive. The vehicles earn high marks in Consumer Reports every year.
Get GMAC back
Toyota, Honda and BMW export vehicles from American plants. Why can't the Detroit 3 do that? Why can't we make inexpensive cars here and ship them to emerging markets?
Congress is offering to help if the industry will help itself. The UAW must seize this opportunity and run with it. Management will have no choice but to go along. Both will make considerably less in pay and benefits. But if they fulfill their responsibilities, they should do well and make more in profit-sharing. Plus a competitive company offers real job security.
Something that should not require additional action from Congress is the restoration and strengthening of the Detroit 3's captive finance companies. Cerberus must sell GMAC back to GM, and Chrysler must own Chrysler Financial.
I can't get the front page of the Nov. 19 Baltimore Sun out of my mind. There is a picture of a man sitting in his kitchen wondering what's going to happen to him after 32 years with GM. He's 52 years old. On the same page is a picture of the Detroit CEOs, each one a millionaire, asking Congress for assistance.
We must do all that we can to keep our people on the job. The UAW can and should lead the way.
Senior Moderator
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 17,085
Likes: 740
From: Brooklyn, NY USA
Detroit 3 loans: There's a template for success
Automotive News
December 1, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
Some people in Detroit were offended by the way Republican and Democratic lawmakers treated the Detroit 3 CEOs during last month's congressional hearings on emergency aid to the companies. With typical congressional flair, much of the criticism was rude, unfounded and based on old stereotypes and misimpressions. But that's history.
General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC seemed ill-prepared to make their case for help. Now they must deliver comprehensive business plans to Congress that show what they already have accomplished, what they plan to do and how they can remain viable.
Many in Congress seem to enjoy bashing corporations and their executives, which can make it easy to lose sight of what is at stake. The impending disaster for some of the Detroit 3 isn't about corporations and other institutions. It's about people — millions of people who would lose their livelihoods if GM goes bankrupt and triggers a depression.
Although the CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger made a bad first impression in Washington, they have another chance to get it right on behalf of those millions of people. To make the most of the opportunity, the Detroit 3 should use the template created by Chrysler Corp. and its chairman, Lee Iacocca, to obtain federal loan guarantees in 1979.
Back then, it was all about equality of sacrifice. The bill that authorized as much as $1.5 billion in federal loan guarantees passed both houses of Congress and was signed into law by President Jimmy Carter in December 1979. It required Chrysler's stakeholders to raise at least $1.4 billion before the loan guarantees could be used.
Painfully, UAW President Doug Fraser saved the bailout by persuading the union's Chrysler employees to accept $462.5 million in wage and benefit concessions. Nonunion employees took $125 million in pay cuts. Suppliers and dealers contributed $180 million. Chrysler's U.S. financial institutions put up $500 million, and even the automaker's foreign lenders came to the table with $150 million. The automaker also needed to raise at least $300 million by selling assets and $250 million from state and local governments.
Wisely, the bailout package allowed stakeholders that made sacrifices — and the government — to profit handsomely when Chrysler was healthy again. They all did.
That should be one of the assumptions this time, too.
Automotive News
December 1, 2008 - 12:01 am ET
Some people in Detroit were offended by the way Republican and Democratic lawmakers treated the Detroit 3 CEOs during last month's congressional hearings on emergency aid to the companies. With typical congressional flair, much of the criticism was rude, unfounded and based on old stereotypes and misimpressions. But that's history.
General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC seemed ill-prepared to make their case for help. Now they must deliver comprehensive business plans to Congress that show what they already have accomplished, what they plan to do and how they can remain viable.
Many in Congress seem to enjoy bashing corporations and their executives, which can make it easy to lose sight of what is at stake. The impending disaster for some of the Detroit 3 isn't about corporations and other institutions. It's about people — millions of people who would lose their livelihoods if GM goes bankrupt and triggers a depression.
Although the CEOs and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger made a bad first impression in Washington, they have another chance to get it right on behalf of those millions of people. To make the most of the opportunity, the Detroit 3 should use the template created by Chrysler Corp. and its chairman, Lee Iacocca, to obtain federal loan guarantees in 1979.
Back then, it was all about equality of sacrifice. The bill that authorized as much as $1.5 billion in federal loan guarantees passed both houses of Congress and was signed into law by President Jimmy Carter in December 1979. It required Chrysler's stakeholders to raise at least $1.4 billion before the loan guarantees could be used.
Painfully, UAW President Doug Fraser saved the bailout by persuading the union's Chrysler employees to accept $462.5 million in wage and benefit concessions. Nonunion employees took $125 million in pay cuts. Suppliers and dealers contributed $180 million. Chrysler's U.S. financial institutions put up $500 million, and even the automaker's foreign lenders came to the table with $150 million. The automaker also needed to raise at least $300 million by selling assets and $250 million from state and local governments.
Wisely, the bailout package allowed stakeholders that made sacrifices — and the government — to profit handsomely when Chrysler was healthy again. They all did.
That should be one of the assumptions this time, too.
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,802
Likes: 1,290
From: Japan
Big who.....?
A Chapter 11 filing will let the companies do what they need and the union can't stop them. The UAW was needed 50 plus years ago, when getting anything resembling a decent wage was only for management. Health care? yeah, right. But now, with all of the normal benefits afforded to someone, there is no need for a union.
Now, getting Detroit to put out vehicles people actually want to buy (sans the Caddy CTS series, the Bowling Green Vette, and maybe trucks for the population that really needs them for work).
My action after the CH 11:
Badge engineering needs to go away, and maybe GM could trim down a bit. Keep Cadillac, and Chevy. Take Buick and Pontiac and get rid of redundant models and roll them into the Chevy company. Keep Saturn as the pure Opel derivative it needs to be.
Chrysler could get rid of Dodge as a brand, and trim down the models. Also trim down the Jeep line so there is less commonality.
Ford should get rid of Mercury, and concentrate on making some their existing products better. The new Lincoln MKS has a nice interior, but the exterior needs some finishing. It's close to being able to compete directly with the CTS, but almost will loose every day.
And the trucks should be scaled back and cater to the community that uses them like trucks.
I'm off my soapbox. They deserve a
, and no money.
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