Save the Manuals!
#41
Off topic, but I'm a manual newb. I have the gist of how to drive, and I've learned the basics, driven a few different cars, dont really stall. But how do I know I'm learning the right way? Because before I get a manual and learn, somewhat on my own, I don't wanna get bad habits. I would rather have them gone when I start learning.
Do we have any threads or do you know of any links that can teach you some of these bad techniques? Ultimately I bet it would come down to having someone sit with you, I guess my dad would be pretty good, but he hasn't driven a manual in quite a while.
Do we have any threads or do you know of any links that can teach you some of these bad techniques? Ultimately I bet it would come down to having someone sit with you, I guess my dad would be pretty good, but he hasn't driven a manual in quite a while.
The first thing I would suggest to you is to learn how a clutch assembly works and how a manual transmission operates. Not to the depth of knowing how to disassemble and reassemble one of course, but so that you will understand terms and develop an intuitive understanding of what is actually taking place when you operate a manual transmission. This, in turn, leads to a certain mechanical "logic" that will aid you as you learn and actually help to keep you from developing bad habits because you will know what is best for your car. Here is a link you might find informative. Read down to post #30, then follow the three links I give in that post for some more info. Feel free to ask questions.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...7#post11888357
#44
I fear this is coming because of a number of reasons. Economies of scale, emissions, move to all electric cars, the diminishing manual market... these are just a few of them. For folks like me and other diehard manual lovers on this site, we may be left with some 4-cylinder stink-o-wagons and that just ain't gonna work for me. My left foot and my right hand is not going to know what to do.
#45
That's the number I see for all consumer 4 wheel vehicles in the US for getting MT. Not sure but I thought MT for the Euro market was >70% and Asia >50%. America is a strange place for transmissions demographics.
#46
I fear this is coming because of a number of reasons. Economies of scale, emissions, move to all electric cars, the diminishing manual market... these are just a few of them. For folks like me and other diehard manual lovers on this site, we may be left with some 4-cylinder stink-o-wagons and that just ain't gonna work for me. My left foot and my right hand is not going to know what to do.
I still believe there will be MT in Accords, Civics, and 3 series, and others 2 decades from now.
#47
I agree, it's diminishing and I think the main factor is emissions for the Euro and Asian manufactures. They already have the MT for their markets, it's the question of importing and getting emissions certification for the MT's.
I still believe there will be MT in Accords, Civics, and 3 series, and others 2 decades from now.
I still believe there will be MT in Accords, Civics, and 3 series, and others 2 decades from now.
Another consideration is China. I suspect NA and European markets will have less of an influence on the automotive landscape than they do now within a few short years. China will become the premier marketplace, and I'm very curious to see what their preferences will be.
Terry
#48
Last time I was in France I took the Air France bus from downtown Paris to the airport. This standard city metro bus (~60 passengers) had a 5MT. Still remember the driver rowing through the gears in stop and go traffic to the airport.
#50
I hope so, but I'm still hesitant to think that manuals will increase or even maintain their current numbers. Along with manufacturing and emission requirements, the continual improvement of automatic gearboxes may also lead to demise of the manual.
Another consideration is China. I suspect NA and European markets will have less of an influence on the automotive landscape than they do now within a few short years. China will become the premier marketplace, and I'm very curious to see what their preferences will be.
Terry
Another consideration is China. I suspect NA and European markets will have less of an influence on the automotive landscape than they do now within a few short years. China will become the premier marketplace, and I'm very curious to see what their preferences will be.
Terry
And it's definitely worth learning how to drive a manual. Even if you aren't an enthusiast, you never know when you might be forced to drive one.
#51
Trolling Canuckistan
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,453
Likes: 811
From: 100 Legends Way, Boston, MA 02114
Purists are always resistant to change.
#52
i too think a manual transmission is the epitome of driving and should be in any FUN car. I would NOT however want a manual as a daily driver because I drive 250 miles per week with plenty of traffic. Some would still want stick in those situations, but not for me.
to get to the point, I see myself having an auto daily driver, but always having that manual fun sports car in the future for when I really want to drive.
As for Ferrari, think about it guys: Ferrari is not the same as it used to be. the 458 has lost the Ferrari charm and I personally think its an extremely ugly car, which is not like Ferrari. Either way, with the car being as it is, I cannot see it with a full manual transmission at all...it simply doesn't fit the car one bit IMO.
anyways: Porsche, BMW, and manual transmissions FTMFW!!!
to get to the point, I see myself having an auto daily driver, but always having that manual fun sports car in the future for when I really want to drive.
As for Ferrari, think about it guys: Ferrari is not the same as it used to be. the 458 has lost the Ferrari charm and I personally think its an extremely ugly car, which is not like Ferrari. Either way, with the car being as it is, I cannot see it with a full manual transmission at all...it simply doesn't fit the car one bit IMO.
anyways: Porsche, BMW, and manual transmissions FTMFW!!!
#53
First off, you are to be congratulated for realizing and knowing that you both need and want to learn correct methods and not learn bad habits. Most people ignore this for some reason, probably because the way they learn is, to them, the correct way. Unfortunately more often than not, they learn from a relative or friend who already has bad habits so they adopt those habits without knowing the consequences.
The first thing I would suggest to you is to learn how a clutch assembly works and how a manual transmission operates. Not to the depth of knowing how to disassemble and reassemble one of course, but so that you will understand terms and develop an intuitive understanding of what is actually taking place when you operate a manual transmission. This, in turn, leads to a certain mechanical "logic" that will aid you as you learn and actually help to keep you from developing bad habits because you will know what is best for your car. Here is a link you might find informative. Read down to post #30, then follow the three links I give in that post for some more info. Feel free to ask questions.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...7#post11888357
The first thing I would suggest to you is to learn how a clutch assembly works and how a manual transmission operates. Not to the depth of knowing how to disassemble and reassemble one of course, but so that you will understand terms and develop an intuitive understanding of what is actually taking place when you operate a manual transmission. This, in turn, leads to a certain mechanical "logic" that will aid you as you learn and actually help to keep you from developing bad habits because you will know what is best for your car. Here is a link you might find informative. Read down to post #30, then follow the three links I give in that post for some more info. Feel free to ask questions.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...7#post11888357
I'll take a look at the thread later, I've already seen some videos of how a manual transmission operates, curiosity got to me.
#54
- Use as few (low) RPM's as your engine and the conditions support to start off. This reduces clutch slip and makes for a smoother launch.
- Never hold your car on a hill with the clutch. That's what brakes are for.
- Don't keep the transmission in gear with the clutch depressed while sitting at a traffic light. Put it in neutral and get your foot off of the clutch.
- Never rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving.
- Never "ride" the clutch any more than absolutely necessary.
- If you don't know how to properly downshift, avoid downshifting as much as possible.
Heat is the enemy of a clutch and any time your clutch is allowed to slip, there is friction and thus, heat. Of course, a certain amount of slipping is both necessary and desired (you have to slip the clutch to get moving). But the goal is to keep this to a minimum. You are off to a great start because you are curious and have expressed a desire to learn to operate a manual transmission correctly. Take your time, put in the effort, and apply both logic and knowledge and you will be just fine.
#55
I hope so, but I'm still hesitant to think that manuals will increase or even maintain their current numbers. Along with manufacturing and emission requirements, the continual improvement of automatic gearboxes may also lead to demise of the manual.
Another consideration is China. I suspect NA and European markets will have less of an influence on the automotive landscape than they do now within a few short years. China will become the premier marketplace, and I'm very curious to see what their preferences will be.
Terry
Another consideration is China. I suspect NA and European markets will have less of an influence on the automotive landscape than they do now within a few short years. China will become the premier marketplace, and I'm very curious to see what their preferences will be.
Terry
China is a good point, never thought about that market. My brother got back from a one week business trip to Shanghai and said the amount of traffic seemed about the same as NYC where he lives.
#57
And that, my friend, is how to do it. In a nutshell, here's a couple of things to give you a start.
Heat is the enemy of a clutch and any time your clutch is allowed to slip, there is friction and thus, heat. Of course, a certain amount of slipping is both necessary and desired (you have to slip the clutch to get moving). But the goal is to keep this to a minimum. You are off to a great start because you are curious and have expressed a desire to learn to operate a manual transmission correctly. Take your time, put in the effort, and apply both logic and knowledge and you will be just fine.
- Use as few (low) RPM's as your engine and the conditions support to start off. This reduces clutch slip and makes for a smoother launch.
- Never hold your car on a hill with the clutch. That's what brakes are for.
- Don't keep the transmission in gear with the clutch depressed while sitting at a traffic light. Put it in neutral and get your foot off of the clutch.
- Never rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving.
- Never "ride" the clutch any more than absolutely necessary.
- If you don't know how to properly downshift, avoid downshifting as much as possible.
Heat is the enemy of a clutch and any time your clutch is allowed to slip, there is friction and thus, heat. Of course, a certain amount of slipping is both necessary and desired (you have to slip the clutch to get moving). But the goal is to keep this to a minimum. You are off to a great start because you are curious and have expressed a desire to learn to operate a manual transmission correctly. Take your time, put in the effort, and apply both logic and knowledge and you will be just fine.
Something I usually do when I get behind the wheel of a car that Im not familiar with is put it into gear and slowly let the clutch out (not touching the accelerator) till the rpms start to drop, just to find the engagement point.
Do you think thats bad for the clutch?
#58
- Use as few (low) RPM's as your engine and the conditions support to start off. This reduces clutch slip and makes for a smoother launch.
- Never hold your car on a hill with the clutch. That's what brakes are for.
- Don't keep the transmission in gear with the clutch depressed while sitting at a traffic light. Put it in neutral and get your foot off of the clutch.
- Never rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving.
- Never "ride" the clutch any more than absolutely necessary.
- If you don't know how to properly downshift, avoid downshifting as much as possible.
To add to your list - clutch life can also be prolonged with conservative driving habits (i.e. in a traffic jam - I'd rather roll in 1st/2nd gear at 10 mph constantly, than be speeding up to 25 and slowing down to zero repeatedly). I shift as little as possible. If I'm in 3rd gear and I know I can comfortably make the corner without downshifting, I won't shift.
I love love my 6MT.
#59
thanks
I've already decided that my next car will be a manual, lets hope that doesn't change. Hopefully after understanding how it operates and learning all the kinks to keep the clutch in good shape, I will be a good manual driver. Once I also feel that I can drive a manual pretty well, I plan on autocrossing. So I know my clutch won't get the best treatment all the time, but I'll try not to be to harsh on it, when autocrossing. (I'm assuming doing harder shifts, and shifts at higher rpm's wears down the clutch more, correct me if I'm wrong.)
I've already decided that my next car will be a manual, lets hope that doesn't change. Hopefully after understanding how it operates and learning all the kinks to keep the clutch in good shape, I will be a good manual driver. Once I also feel that I can drive a manual pretty well, I plan on autocrossing. So I know my clutch won't get the best treatment all the time, but I'll try not to be to harsh on it, when autocrossing. (I'm assuming doing harder shifts, and shifts at higher rpm's wears down the clutch more, correct me if I'm wrong.)
#60
Very well said.
Something I usually do when I get behind the wheel of a car that Im not familiar with is put it into gear and slowly let the clutch out (not touching the accelerator) till the rpms start to drop, just to find the engagement point.
Do you think thats bad for the clutch?
Something I usually do when I get behind the wheel of a car that Im not familiar with is put it into gear and slowly let the clutch out (not touching the accelerator) till the rpms start to drop, just to find the engagement point.
Do you think thats bad for the clutch?
#61
These are great pearls of wisdom. I daily drive a car with 435,000 miles on an original clutch. I can claim 340,000 of those miles. While it's true that most of the miles I've put on are highway, I still adhere to all of what you mentioned above.
To add to your list - clutch life can also be prolonged with conservative driving habits (i.e. in a traffic jam - I'd rather roll in 1st/2nd gear at 10 mph constantly, than be speeding up to 25 and slowing down to zero repeatedly). I shift as little as possible. If I'm in 3rd gear and I know I can comfortably make the corner without downshifting, I won't shift.
I love love my 6MT.
To add to your list - clutch life can also be prolonged with conservative driving habits (i.e. in a traffic jam - I'd rather roll in 1st/2nd gear at 10 mph constantly, than be speeding up to 25 and slowing down to zero repeatedly). I shift as little as possible. If I'm in 3rd gear and I know I can comfortably make the corner without downshifting, I won't shift.
I love love my 6MT.
Let me guess. You double clutch your downshifts... right? Or at least rev-match them.
#62
thanks
I've already decided that my next car will be a manual, lets hope that doesn't change. Hopefully after understanding how it operates and learning all the kinks to keep the clutch in good shape, I will be a good manual driver. Once I also feel that I can drive a manual pretty well, I plan on autocrossing. So I know my clutch won't get the best treatment all the time, but I'll try not to be to harsh on it, when autocrossing. (I'm assuming doing harder shifts, and shifts at higher rpm's wears down the clutch more, correct me if I'm wrong.)
I've already decided that my next car will be a manual, lets hope that doesn't change. Hopefully after understanding how it operates and learning all the kinks to keep the clutch in good shape, I will be a good manual driver. Once I also feel that I can drive a manual pretty well, I plan on autocrossing. So I know my clutch won't get the best treatment all the time, but I'll try not to be to harsh on it, when autocrossing. (I'm assuming doing harder shifts, and shifts at higher rpm's wears down the clutch more, correct me if I'm wrong.)
#64
I agree over time we see manufacturers dropping MT option from models. But every so often some manufacturer brings it back to a model, the 2G TL had no MT but Acura included a 6MT for the 3G, MB had a 6MT option for the 2G C-class in 2000.
China is a good point, never thought about that market. My brother got back from a one week business trip to Shanghai and said the amount of traffic seemed about the same as NYC where he lives.
China is a good point, never thought about that market. My brother got back from a one week business trip to Shanghai and said the amount of traffic seemed about the same as NYC where he lives.
I'm really curious as to what the automotive climate will be in China in the upcoming years. I definitely think it's an automotive marketplace that will eventually eclipse our own.
Terry
Last edited by teranfon; 07-28-2010 at 07:37 PM.
#65
- Use as few (low) RPM's as your engine and the conditions support to start off. This reduces clutch slip and makes for a smoother launch.
- Never hold your car on a hill with the clutch. That's what brakes are for.
- Don't keep the transmission in gear with the clutch depressed while sitting at a traffic light. Put it in neutral and get your foot off of the clutch.
- Never rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving.
- Never "ride" the clutch any more than absolutely necessary.
- If you don't know how to properly downshift, avoid downshifting as much as possible.
Terry
#66
No, it's not because you probably only do this for a moment and the clamping pressure is not that strong at the initial point of engagement. There is another technique I use for this sometimes, but it is something I generally do not bring up because if done incorrectly, it can result in damaged dog teeth.
#67
Going to have to disagree with you on this one P. Whether an automatic or manual, a car should always be in gear while on a roadway, including traffic lights. The amount of wear on the pressure plate and throw-out would be negligible, and from a safety standpoint it's best to have the car ready to move in any situation.
Terry
Terry
#68
Going to have to disagree with you on this one P. Whether an automatic or manual, a car should always be in gear while on a roadway, including traffic lights. The amount of wear on the pressure plate and throw-out would be negligible, and from a safety standpoint it's best to have the car ready to move in any situation.
Terry
Terry
I do stand by my statement and the reason is primarily to reduce wear on the release bearing as you mentioned.
#69
Some claim that the throw-out bearing will wear prematurely if the clutch is continually depressed. There seems to be some who agree with this, and still others who don't. The manuals I have rebuilt have never exhibited premature bearing wear, but admittedly they were not driven by me when new.
At a safety standpoint I was taught that a vehicle should be able to move at all times. I suppose this is a matter of preference, but I always teach others never to have a car in neutral at a red light.
Terry
#70
I understand your point and I have been in several serious situations where I had to react quickly from a stop light. My car was in neutral and I reacted as I would have expected. One time in particular in 1998, it saved my life.
I do stand by my statement and the reason is primarily to reduce wear on the release bearing as you mentioned.
I do stand by my statement and the reason is primarily to reduce wear on the release bearing as you mentioned.
I recall once sitting at a light in my '67 Shelby and looked up briefly in the rear view only to see a pickup sliding towards me. I instinctively rolled off the clutch (the car was in gear) while looking both ways and accelerated forward about ten feet. The pickup stopped about three inches from my rear bumper. Scared the hell out of me, but I shudder to think of what would have happened if I had been hit from behind.
Terry
#71
You disengage the clutch completely, move the shifter just past neutral but not into first gear - you will notice a "smooth" point there of many two inches. Now move the shifter slowly towards first gear but not into first gear and let out the clutch just a little. As the friction disk makes contact with the flywheel and pressure plate, you will hear and feel the dog teeth grinding against the mating hub. This is where initial engagement begins.
Once again, DO NOT attempt this if you don't know exactly what you're doing. You could seriously damage your transmission.
#72
Some claim that the throw-out bearing will wear prematurely if the clutch is continually depressed. There seems to be some who agree with this, and still others who don't. The manuals I have rebuilt have never exhibited premature bearing wear, but admittedly they were not driven by me when new.
At a safety standpoint I was taught that a vehicle should be able to move at all times. I suppose this is a matter of preference, but I always teach others never to have a car in neutral at a red light.
Terry
At a safety standpoint I was taught that a vehicle should be able to move at all times. I suppose this is a matter of preference, but I always teach others never to have a car in neutral at a red light.
Terry
I have taught people over the years to constantly be aware of their surroundings (a pet mantra thing with me). At lights, do not pull too close to vehicles in front of you. Always look for ways out of an extreme situation. And never take anything for granted. Do I always practice these things? No. But I try to do so most of the time.
#73
I recall once sitting at a light in my '67 Shelby and looked up briefly in the rear view only to see a pickup sliding towards me. I instinctively rolled off the clutch (the car was in gear) while looking both ways and accelerated forward about ten feet. The pickup stopped about three inches from my rear bumper. Scared the hell out of me, but I shudder to think of what would have happened if I had been hit from behind.
Terry
Terry
#74
You know I respect your knowledge and opinions, Terry. I just happen to disagree on this one. One does have to weigh everything they do in their driving experiences and consider all manner of things: safety, longevity, legality... you name it.
I have taught people over the years to constantly be aware of their surroundings (a pet mantra thing with me). At lights, do not pull too close to vehicles in front of you. Always look for ways out of an extreme situation. And never take anything for granted. Do I always practice these things? No. But I try to do so most of the time.
I have taught people over the years to constantly be aware of their surroundings (a pet mantra thing with me). At lights, do not pull too close to vehicles in front of you. Always look for ways out of an extreme situation. And never take anything for granted. Do I always practice these things? No. But I try to do so most of the time.
No problem P, as you know I respect your opinions as well. We wouldn't be friends if we didn't respect each other, regardless of the varying opinions at times.
I have honestly never lost a throw-out or rebuilt a transmission because of it, but each of us has different experiences. And I will always personally feel more comfortable with a car in gear whether I am driver or passenger.
Take care.
Terry
Last edited by teranfon; 07-28-2010 at 10:16 PM.
#75
I had a new transmission put into my Bus and I often depress the clutch when I'm in gear taking turns or waiting at lights. 8 years later driving up a huge San Francisco hill every day home from work for 4 years and my throwout bearing was fine so was the clutch. A new throwout bearing is about $40. No big deal.
Maybe modern cars aren't as sturdy?
Maybe modern cars aren't as sturdy?
#76
Thing is, ferrari is assuming every one of their owners track it. Probably 5 percent of their owners give a shit about whether their 0-60 is .2 seconds quicker in the F1 transmission. Probably even less than that. Unless you are very competitive about racing other people, a manual will be a hundred times more fun and the people who do take these cars to the track are competing with themselves, to improve on their own time. So they do have a reason to make a manual. I dunno how expensive it is to make both.
Regardless of what the customer will use the car for, they're still buying it for the name & the name behind Ferrari means top-of-the-line performance. According to one rep at Ferrari, since nobody bought manuals, the 458 was designed for the 7-speed dual-clutch to help maximize performance. The rep. said a gated manual was outdated technology.
Here's also a quick fact. In 2009, Ferrari offered manual transmissions to those who wanted it because people said, "Ferrari, please give us a 6-speed option". Guess what. Nobody bought the 6-speed in any big numbers, thus, Ferrari dropped it.
This article says the California will be the last available with the 6-speed, but says 0-60 drops to 4.2. For those who care (& they're out there), that's a near-second slower to 60 than when MT got a California there in 3.5 (others average 3.7). Fuel mileage also drops surprisingly.
http://www.luxist.com/2010/03/22/end...h-manual-tran/
#78
#79
I understand your point and I have been in several serious situations where I had to react quickly from a stop light. My car was in neutral and I reacted as I would have expected. One time in particular in 1998, it saved my life.
I do stand by my statement and the reason is primarily to reduce wear on the release bearing as you mentioned.
I do stand by my statement and the reason is primarily to reduce wear on the release bearing as you mentioned.
Also I respect Southernboy and Terafon opinions, both are extremely knowledgeable in vehicles.