Are people mocking us when they say...
08-28-2010, 11:53 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Are people mocking us when they say...
V-tec just kicked in yo!!
Or do they really think it's a good thing. I only hear it in a negative tone myself. I say this cuz my friend with an Audi said this to me when he saw a pic of my car. I didn't know how to react. I don't want to get out my baseball bat...
Or do they really think it's a good thing. I only hear it in a negative tone myself. I say this cuz my friend with an Audi said this to me when he saw a pic of my car. I didn't know how to react. I don't want to get out my baseball bat...
08-28-2010, 11:59 PM
#2
Race Director
iTrader: (8)
It's just another damn meme...
08-29-2010, 12:17 AM
#4
It's pretty common for German car fans to mock VTEC (because they don't understand it). I had a co-worker making fun of my Type-R powered Civic saying Honda's had to wait for VTEC to kick in to go fast. I guess he didn't realize I could simply downshifted and blow past his turbo Corrado with instant throttle response. That was a lesson he learned the hard way...
08-29-2010, 02:07 AM
#6
Team Owner
Coming from the Domestic world and especially a high boost turbo car, yes, they are mocking you.
Vtec is great, don't get me wrong. On a car like the TL where it's only on the intake side, you don't really feel it. What I notice is a car that has decent low rpm power yet pulls hard all the way to redline. You may not feel it but if you've been racing much you will either expect a severe lack of low end with a good high end kick or you will expect decent low end and the little 3.2L to start falling off past 5,500rpm or so. That's how I can tell vtec is there and working, it does not fall off to redline even though you can't really feel the kick when it hits.
Vtec was very advanced for it's time. However, regular vtec is way behind the curve. Pretty much every new car has some form of "vtec". They implement it in a much better way to where some form of cam phasing and timing is implemented right off of idle and all the way to redline. You don't have that on/off feeling because it's constantly adjusting at every rpm. Maybe Honda has stayed with the on/off style (yes, I know there is Ivtec) because that's what honda fans have come to expect and they want to feel it kick in. The problem is, it's only for feelings, it's not the best way. Many maufactureres, even Ford trucks manipulate the cam timing to the point that EGR is no longer necessary.
As much as people love it, all variable cam timing, cam lift, cam phasing is really for emissions more than anything else. It can make an engine rev very high while maintaining low rpm emissions and drivability. For a race car, you're better off just using a large cam and the appropriate high stall convertor or launch technique rather than vtec.
Where it gets made fun of is the rice crowd jacking off over vtec "kicking in" and comparing it to a turbo kicking in. I've heard thousands of excuses of "vtec didn't kick in" after I put 1/8 mile on a Civic in a 1/4 mile race. Or "it bogged out of vtec range" or any of 100 other vtec excuses. You're talking about a relatively small hp increase yet it's compared to turbos or it's the excuse for losing to a car that has 450 more hp than you as if vtec would have made up the difference. My car makes about 170hp without boost. It kind of offends me when people try to compare vtec to boost.
Vtec is great, don't get me wrong. On a car like the TL where it's only on the intake side, you don't really feel it. What I notice is a car that has decent low rpm power yet pulls hard all the way to redline. You may not feel it but if you've been racing much you will either expect a severe lack of low end with a good high end kick or you will expect decent low end and the little 3.2L to start falling off past 5,500rpm or so. That's how I can tell vtec is there and working, it does not fall off to redline even though you can't really feel the kick when it hits.
Vtec was very advanced for it's time. However, regular vtec is way behind the curve. Pretty much every new car has some form of "vtec". They implement it in a much better way to where some form of cam phasing and timing is implemented right off of idle and all the way to redline. You don't have that on/off feeling because it's constantly adjusting at every rpm. Maybe Honda has stayed with the on/off style (yes, I know there is Ivtec) because that's what honda fans have come to expect and they want to feel it kick in. The problem is, it's only for feelings, it's not the best way. Many maufactureres, even Ford trucks manipulate the cam timing to the point that EGR is no longer necessary.
As much as people love it, all variable cam timing, cam lift, cam phasing is really for emissions more than anything else. It can make an engine rev very high while maintaining low rpm emissions and drivability. For a race car, you're better off just using a large cam and the appropriate high stall convertor or launch technique rather than vtec.
Where it gets made fun of is the rice crowd jacking off over vtec "kicking in" and comparing it to a turbo kicking in. I've heard thousands of excuses of "vtec didn't kick in" after I put 1/8 mile on a Civic in a 1/4 mile race. Or "it bogged out of vtec range" or any of 100 other vtec excuses. You're talking about a relatively small hp increase yet it's compared to turbos or it's the excuse for losing to a car that has 450 more hp than you as if vtec would have made up the difference. My car makes about 170hp without boost. It kind of offends me when people try to compare vtec to boost.
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08-29-2010, 08:41 AM
#9
Well, if you feel vtec kick in, then it's set at the wrong RPM. It should be smooth. Similar to how you shift when your thrust curve from one gear meets that of the next. There should be no instant increase in HP.
Also, as IHC said, vtec is solely for low end emissions control. Most Honda guys that track their cars get "vtec killer" cams.
Also, as IHC said, vtec is solely for low end emissions control. Most Honda guys that track their cars get "vtec killer" cams.
08-29-2010, 09:33 AM
#11
When VTEC was new, you'd feel a pretty good kick when the cam profile changed over. I remember the original Prelude VTEC was damned fun to drive because of that. Like hitting the afterburners. Of course, "fun" doesn't equate to "works well in actual performance driving," and modern VTEC doesn't do stuff like that anymore.
But back then, a lot of guys at the autocrosses I went to who didn't understand how it worked, and thought it was basically a turbo-without-a-turbo. So you'd hear a lot of crap about "VTEC kicked in," etc, which led the people who actually knew about cars to make fun of them
But back then, a lot of guys at the autocrosses I went to who didn't understand how it worked, and thought it was basically a turbo-without-a-turbo. So you'd hear a lot of crap about "VTEC kicked in," etc, which led the people who actually knew about cars to make fun of them
08-29-2010, 10:07 AM
#13
In our cars's you can hear the vtec kicking in around 4700 rpm to 4800 rpm. The power is linear from idle all the way through redline. Yeah the rpm does move a little faster after the 4700 mark but really nothing to brag about because the car already has plenty of power low end to mid range no need the vtec sound for the most part. Besides, normal acceleration is enough for me to be ahead of people with car shifting from 2500 to 3500 rpm. I hate to say this but most German cars are pretty unreliable there are only few that are really reliable and that is the bmw 3 series. Most Audi's are not that reliable yeah they are great looking cars but problems start occuring after like 2 to 3 years
Last edited by mb1976; 08-29-2010 at 10:11 AM.
08-29-2010, 02:21 PM
#17
Instructor
08-29-2010, 08:58 PM
#19
OP, yes they are making fun of you..
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...c-Image-Thread
Last edited by John08TL-S; 08-29-2010 at 09:11 PM.
08-29-2010, 10:03 PM
#20
Audi & BMW's don't need to rev up to 4,000 RPM in order to start making any power either (tq).. VTEC is "fun" on my 3.5L TL-S, but really just a band-aid on an underpowered FWD car when you compare it to Audi/BMW turbo cars and Nissan's 3.7L engines and AWD/RWD.. But then again, our cars are much more competitively priced and seem to hold their value much better..
OP, yes they are making fun of you..
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...c-Image-Thread
OP, yes they are making fun of you..
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...c-Image-Thread
08-29-2010, 10:11 PM
#22
Team Owner
Audi & BMW's don't need to rev up to 4,000 RPM in order to start making any power either (tq).. VTEC is "fun" on my 3.5L TL-S, but really just a band-aid on an underpowered FWD car when you compare it to Audi/BMW turbo cars and Nissan's 3.7L engines and AWD/RWD.. But then again, our cars are much more competitively priced and seem to hold their value much better..
OP, yes they are making fun of you..
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...c-Image-Thread
OP, yes they are making fun of you..
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...c-Image-Thread
LOL. If there was ever a group that had no room to make fun of Hondas it would be the VW guys. No doubt I've seen the gayest, riciest things ever from over there.
08-29-2010, 10:58 PM
#23
Having said that, I must say I love VTEC. It allows an engine to have the flattest torque curve possible. This allows for low rpm torque, as well as high rpm horsepower. Without it, 4-cylinders would either have no top end, or no streetability...
PS: The only Japanese car to ever win the 24 hours of Leman had one of the coolest forms of VTEC ever. The Mazda 787B rotary had a hydraulically operated variable length intake manifold that allowed the engine to breath at any rpm. This thing was awesome. So awesome it was outlawed at Leman...
Last edited by 94eg!; 08-29-2010 at 11:06 PM.
100% mocking and making fun.
08-30-2010, 01:24 AM
#25
When VTEC was new, you'd feel a pretty good kick when the cam profile changed over. I remember the original Prelude VTEC was damned fun to drive because of that. Like hitting the afterburners. Of course, "fun" doesn't equate to "works well in actual performance driving," and modern VTEC doesn't do stuff like that anymore.
But back then, a lot of guys at the autocrosses I went to who didn't understand how it worked, and thought it was basically a turbo-without-a-turbo. So you'd hear a lot of crap about "VTEC kicked in," etc, which led the people who actually knew about cars to make fun of them
But back then, a lot of guys at the autocrosses I went to who didn't understand how it worked, and thought it was basically a turbo-without-a-turbo. So you'd hear a lot of crap about "VTEC kicked in," etc, which led the people who actually knew about cars to make fun of them
right now my dd(since my wife took the tl), is a 93 accord with a h22. its not fast, but it is quick. even though its properly tuned, you do still "feel" vtec. within a 500rpm range, the whp jumps 20+, very noticeable.
and for anyone that wants to talk trash saying hondas are only good post-vtec... when else does a car need to be fast? ive never raced in the low rpms. vtec is great, its all about efficiency, like someone stated before. if you drive normally, you get less power and better mpg. and that 5000+ rpm range is there just for when you need it.
a friend of mine has a g35, says he gets about 18mpg... my tl-s gets 25.
08-30-2010, 09:51 AM
#30
Instructor
So today I parked my '06 TL MT I picked up last month and decided to go riding for a change. I ride a sportbike needless to say...a Honda CBR600F4i... and ya, let's say when I opened up the throttle on a straight stretch and took it up to 15,000 RPM I was like VTEC KICKED IN...JAH!! lol.. I luv Honda...and er..my new TL
08-30-2010, 11:31 AM
#33
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08-30-2010, 01:26 PM
#34
Having said that, I must say I love VTEC. It allows an engine to have the flattest torque curve possible. This allows for low rpm torque, as well as high rpm horsepower. Without it, 4-cylinders would either have no top end, or no streetability...
PS: The only Japanese car to ever win the 24 hours of Leman had one of the coolest forms of VTEC ever. The Mazda 787B rotary had a hydraulically operated variable length intake manifold that allowed the engine to breath at any rpm. This thing was awesome. So awesome it was outlawed at Leman...
08-30-2010, 01:33 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
I believe it wasn't anything to do with variable cams or intake manifold lengths that was banned. It was the rotary engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was because of displacement numbers, and how you couldn't compare displacement of a rotary engine to that of a typical engine.
08-30-2010, 01:51 PM
#37
Team Owner
Exactly. The rotory engine's displacement *should* be multiplied by 3. They were in effect running a larger engine than everyone else.
08-30-2010, 05:35 PM
#40
FYI: Rotaries are more comparable to 2-stroke motors. To compare them to 4-stroke motors, their displacement should be doubled. But for whatever reason, it isn't in racing. But then again, neither are 2-strokes...