Originally posted by NOVAwhiteTypeS:
<STRONG>way more torque than us. and yes it does sound very good.</STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>looks like shit.. but fast as shit.. bubble butt :p..

hmm... 6spd Manual Transmission.... HLSD ... 255 hp ..... don't wake me up fella's let me keep dreaming.. if the 222 hp with no LSD can run 14.8 .. and the 227 with LSD can run 14.4 .. hmm.. with 255.. oh boy.. time to change the bed linen

i think that look can grow on me now </STRONG>

Originally posted by NOVAwhiteTypeS:
<STRONG>way more torque than us. and yes it does sound very good.</STRONG>

Originally posted by gavriil:
<STRONG>OK. Here are my comments:

As far as the pricing, I think if you add up all we have as standard options, you will see the price of the Maxima get in the low $30s and still be missing options PLUS, since there is leather seats and then there is leather seats and the same applies to all options, then the Maxima is not as good of a deal as a CLS. Plus dont forget that when you get a Maxima, you get Nissan service (post-sale) and not Infiniti service. So there is another con.

As far as the engine. It sounds to me like the 5 HP descrepancy is there to sound like the Maxima makes less power than the Infinitis what will wear this engine.

Other than that, I see nowhere what size and type of tires will the 6 speed manual wear which is very important. Dont forget this is still a FWD car. So for anything less than 225mm wide and being a summer tire, the 6 speed will have trouble hooking up from a stand still (most probably).

A $30K Maxima just does not sound right in my opinion. They are pricing themselves out of the equation. Nissan does care much about this because their bread and butter will now be the Altima, so they probably expect a shift in the sales from the Max. to the Alt. But think of the choices for $30 in the luxury segment: TL, CL, Merc's C240, 325i, Audi's new A4 1.8T, a couple of cars from Volve like the S60 and S40, ES 300.</STRONG>

Originally posted by MaxManiac:
<STRONG>The car will hook up just fine with Helitcal LSD. That is what makes the difference. A loaded Maxima AE 5spd right now goes for 27k that is with every option. I doubt the new one will be anymore.

</STRONG>

Originally posted by gto2050:
<STRONG>
My 98 was $28,600 with every option but Automatic. Let's end all the hating. Nissan makes some freakin great cars. I love 'em. My all time favorite car to this day is a 96 300ZX TT. Gimme one of those anyday and I'll throw everything in my stable out. But..... this is a CL board. Max owners won't get much sympathy here. No more than say if we were to invade the Maxima board and start talking shiznits about our cars. Take it for what it's worth. "My dad can whip your dad." Over and out.</STRONG>

Originally posted by Mike:
<STRONG>due to the parasitic loss of our auto drive train we're looking at ~180 ft lbs of torque at the wheels. i'm guessing that the manny se will probably put down ~ 210-215 at the wheels so that's huge.</STRONG>

Originally posted by gavriil:
<STRONG>

Woh, you folks misunderstood me. I dont hate the Maxima. I dont hate any car. I am no Acura fan. I am a fan of whoever gives me the best deal on what I want.

We'll see about the LSD and how much of a difference there will be. I say the secret still lies behind the tires mostly as far as traction is concerned (provided the suspension is doint its job fairly well).

THis is a great car at this point, this new Max. but I am not sure about how will Nissan justify the cost (look at the options list folks, you even have to pay for airbags, I mean give me a break). If there were an AWD version for $1500 more, I think this car would make much more sense. But who cares what I say, we'll see what the public does.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: gavriil ]</STRONG>

Originally posted by tankmonkey:
<STRONG>

1. neither acura nor nissan quote horsepower or torque at the wheels, and I was commenting on the manufacturers' respective ratings. (which are at the crank, yes?)

2. the maxima will be available in an auto transmission version, which will likely outsell the manual.

3. according to the major automotive press, acura is will be providing the 2002 cl-s with a 6 speed manual this fall.

4. comparing manual to manual or auto to auto, I don't see 14 lb/ft as being a major difference.</STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>unless Honda offers LSD .. then its a huge difference </STRONG>

Originally posted by tankmonkey:
<STRONG>

I don't care if nissan is offering slicks on the damn thing... 14 lb/ft is *still* not a major difference on a 3400-3500 lb fwd car.

it isn't like we're taling about the 70lb/ft difference between the mustang gt and the cl-s...</STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>once you start getting in the 240 hp range.. torque steer is a bitch.. and LSD eliminates torque steer.. if you can't launch your car.. then you lost the race right there.. LSD is a BIG deal </STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>once you start getting in the 240 hp range.. torque steer is a bitch.. and LSD eliminates torque steer.. if you can't launch your car.. then you lost the race right there.. LSD is a BIG deal </STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>once you start getting in the 240 hp range.. torque steer is a bitch.. </STRONG>

Originally posted by GoldTypeS:
<STRONG>


I guess that would depend upon the manufacturer. The Eclipse at 200-205hp has WAY WAY WAY WAY more torque steer than the CL-S at 260hp. A stock CL-S has virtually no torque steer, IMHO. Now that I have headers and intake and am around 300hp, I feel a twitch in the steering wheel fairly often. But it's just something I notice, and not something I necessarily deem to be a problem. When the car starts steering itself towards the nearest ditch... then I'll call it a problem </STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>you stomp on the gas in a maxima in first gear and that thing flies every which way direction...</STRONG>

Originally posted by tankmonkey:
<STRONG>

I don't care if nissan is offering slicks on the damn thing... 14 lb/ft is *still* not a major difference on a 3400-3500 lb fwd car.

it isn't like we're taling about the 70lb/ft difference between the mustang gt and the cl-s...</STRONG>

Originally posted by DtEW:
<STRONG>

Does the car simply "(fly) every which way direction" when you keep hold the wheel centered, or does the steering wheel actually wrestle against you so hard that you can't keep it straight, then forcing the car to "(fly) every which way direction"?

If it's the former, then it's not torque steer at all. You're just having problems managing your wheelspin. A LSD will help with that (which also tells you it's not torque steer).

Only the latter is torque steer. Significant torque steer in a stock car implies bad design.</STRONG>

Originally posted by MaxManiac:
<STRONG>Dane, when did the max gain 200-300 lb? lol

</STRONG>

Originally posted by DtEW:
<STRONG>Hehe, it's amusing what you guys are listing as the design features that eliminate torque steer, but the true eliminator of torque steer that all current Honda/Acura cars and most other FWD cars have are:

3. Steering geometry that puts the kingpin axes roughly through the centers of the CV joints, minimizing the effect of the CV joints' resistance to "flexing" as large loads are applied.

2. Equal length halfshafts, so the CV joints' resistance to "flexing" as large loads are applied are equal at both sides.

3. Suspension geometry that puts the kingpin axes roughly through the centers of the contact patchs, so forces at work on the contact patchs do not result in significant torques on the kingpin axes.

Simply defined, torque steer is the effect in which the power going to the wheels by way of the halfshafts gets fed back to the steering mechanism. Say you've got the wheel turned as you're negotiating a slow switchback. Getting on the gas in a torque-steery car will result in the steering wheel wrestling against being held in the turned state. We're not talking about the natural tendency for steering to center as the vehicle is moving forward; that's a function of caster and trail. We're talking about throttle-dependent self-centering (or self-decentering in the case of unequal-length halfshafts). That would be torque steer, and it has nothing to do with LSDs or stability/traction control systems.

Sure, increased power output does have a tendency to magnify the little torque-steer that is present in all modern FWD cars. But no LSD or ABS-variant electronic gadgetry is going to mitigate that.

LSD in a FWD car is all about being able to harness the grip of both tires to put down the power in a situation where the power output is enough to overwhelm one tire but not enough to overwhelm both. In a RWD car, it not only does that, but also gives one the option of being able to overwhelm both tires on-demand (better control at calling up power oversteer), and contributes a little bit to braking stability.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: DtEW ]</STRONG>

Originally posted by doug:
<STRONG>its probably dependent on where your torque curve hits.. i know on my car when it was stock with only 190 hp and 200 ft lbs tq at the crank.. i was getting way way way.. torque steer.. this is because our VQ engine has that low down torque ... and it hits at like 1000 rpm... you stomp on the gas in a maxima in first gear and that thing flies every which way direction... i am not sure how much torque you guys have and when it hits.. but that has alot to do with it

</STRONG>

Originally posted by GoldTypeS:
<STRONG>

I don't know the characteristics of our engines torque down low. I haven't seen a stock dyno in awhile. I do remember the torque peak is 3500-5500rpm however. But I'm not sure your theory holds with the CL-S. I can say for sure that headers and intake absolutely (and unfortunately) DO NOT add significant (if any) torque down low but yet torque steer has still increased noticeably.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: GoldTypeS ]</STRONG>