Negotiating Tactics...
01-05-2009, 09:05 AM
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Negotiating Tactics...
Hey everyone... I know there are multiple threads on pricing and negotiating but I wanted to start a thread focusing solely on the negotiations and tactics that can be used and avoided...
I've taken several negotiating classes at the graduate level and the professors like to toy with car dealers but they admit that everyone is at a disadvantage negotiating with a car dealer. Let's face the facts... car dealers negotiate every day all day long for a living. They have seen all the negotiating tactics and strategies out there so you won't be able to "out negotiate" them... But if you go in with a solid agenda and some of these techniques queued and ready to deploy you will be better off for it....
Rule #1 in negotiating a car: The only and best power you have as a car buyer is to walk away. You must use this in order to get the best deal... The dealer has every other power angle with their information. Even with the internet, we don't have all the information. By all means play dealers off of one another but don't tell them exactly which dealer is giving you the "other" quote because they'll call them to collude (I've seen this happen).
Having said that, here are some of the tactics besides walking away that may be helpful in a car negotiation or in every day life:
Bracketing - the logical bargaining process of moving towards a middle point. This is car deal 101 stuff and involves "anchoring". The dealer will anchor high and you'll anchor low. There is a set pie here so try to get as big of a piece as you can. If everything goes your way and they say they won't make any money on the deal, tell them that's ok with you. That actually happened with my TL deal when the dealer told me the "economics" of their business wouldn't let them make money on my offer so I told them that wasn't my problem and I responded in kind by telling them "my economics wouldn't allow your offer to happen". If you get a bigger piece of the pie than they do and they ask you if you can be happy knowing they are not happy respond with this: "I'm happy enough for the both of us..."
Flinching - as soon as the they give you a quote have a fast "gasp" reaction and a deep breath. This conveys that you are shocked.
Nibbles - this is basic... one last thing to close the deal often involving new items of nominal value. The response to this technique is to either be silent, walk away, or make counter with a nibble of your own.
Vise - "you gotta do better than that". This puts the ball in their court without you having to make a counter offer... but the weakness of this technique is the obvious counter of "how much better". If they counter with "how much better" you may be stuck...
Mutt and Jeff - aka Good Cop / Bad Cop. Have your significant other act as the "bad cop." This worked with my first car deal when my dad was buying me a truck (F150) in HS. We were negotiating with a salesman and my dad postured like he was about to walk and instead went to look as a lesser truck (Ranger). I then pleaded with the salesman to make a better deal for my dad so I could get the nicer truck and the salesman would make more commission. It worked that time...
Belly Up - "I've never really done XYZ before... "... this is a long shot but I wouldn't try it with an Acura...
Limited Authority - I'll have to ask my XYZ first... Although this may actually be true, it's a useful technique as this is one of the car dealers' favorites. In reality this subjects you to multiple negotiations and allows them to say "NO" but not "YES". They use this with their multiple levels of authority on deals so you should too. The best counter to this is to refuse to talk to the first level salesman and negotiate directly only with the person with the authority to make the deal.
Reinforcement - give reward (concession) for good behavior. Tell them you are close to deciding to prod them to make final concessions. May only work if you have worn them down...
Boulwarism - Take it or leave it. First offer is final offer. You may try to push them to do this to you if you are getting multiple quotes or combine this with the #1 rule of walking out.
Reluctant Buyer/Seller - "I just don't know...". This is pretty weak but may work.
Delayed Liking - don't warm up to other party very fast until they start to concede. I used this effectively in my TL deal by not conceeding or "anchoring" until they were very close to invoice.
Norm of Reciprocity - give concessions only when you get them...or in this case less often than you get them because you are facing an uphill battle with the car dealer
Agenda - control the flow and timing of the negotiations. Leave when you want, don't sign anything, question everything they ask you to initial. This is one of the only things you can control in the car deal
Chicken - both parties make big bluffs and see who gives in first. This can breed mistrust and is seen a threat, so be wary of using it in negotiations you hope will succeed. May be used when "shooting the moon" with a dealer you don't want to deal with to see if you can get a great deal...
Attitudinal Structuring - control of perceptions during negotiations. Say "I'm ready to pull the trigger today" and watch the salesman's mouth start to water. They will make concessions fast then pull out and leave.
Consistency Principle - stay with your guns... commit up front and stay with it. Low ball them at invoice and stick with it and don't give in... This will show that you say what you mean and are honest... and tell them that and point out that they came in high and are now pack peddling to get to your number. Call them out on not being consistant or trust worthy...
Shadow Negotiation - negotiation about the negotiation. This could be anything from being late to not answering a phone call. This is focused on how you will deal with each other and will arise when the power in a negotiation is not equal as is the case with a car deal.
Here's some more techniques that won't work in a car deal:
Similarity - dressing or acting like the opposition. This seems like it may work with a car deal but you'll come across as condescending or hard balling.
Contrasting - giving multiple choices then go with just one. This is a framing technique that cops use a lot...ex: cop tells you he could give you tickets for X, Y, and Z then gives you ticket for just X so you are happy in the situation. He never intended to give you Y and Z, just didn't want to argue so he out negotiated you...
Flattery - name says it all... flattering other party to weaken them... works good on the opposite sex!...
Briar Rabbit - "whatever we do, let's just not do XYZ..." when XYZ is actually something you want
Snow Jobs - bombard the other party with so much information they can't tell what's useful. This is what the car dealer will do to you!!!
Bogies - fight for something you don't want so you can give in for something you really care about. These are "throw aways"... if you don't get them then no big deal.
Time Pressure - define the end of the negotiation to pressure other party into decision/compromise. Time is on your side with a car deal, so don't use this or give into it.
Multiparty negotiations... when you bring along someone besides yourself to the negotiation be aware of a few things. First, negotiators (including yourself) will "try harder" to make a deal happen and seek a positive reaction from the "audience". Audiences put undo pressure on negotiators to compromise and cause irrational behavior. If you do bring a spouse to the negotiation, have everything scripted and know your roles. This may mean, as corny as it sounds, having "safe words" to walk, playing Mutt and Jeff as described above, and definitely have your agenda planned on what you want to cover so that you may control the flow of the negotiation. Make sure the "audience" is briefed on what to say and what not to say. You don't want them to slip and say something like "I thought you really like XYZ" when you were using Briar Rabbit technique.
Another point of interest is how to deal with the car dealer's hard balling. The proper way to address this is to do one of a few things including: ignore it, discuss it, harball back, or co-opt with them. By co-opting and making friends with them they'll find it hard to hardball a "friend". Co-opting may be tough with a car deal, so stick with the first three...
Some common mistakes negotiators make is to believe that you have to hardball or be closed off from the first interaction. You need a "game face" but not from the beginning. I saw this while I was dealing with other men walking around the dealer acting like assholes. There is a time and place for everything so mix up the hard ass routine so you catch them off guard. Other mistakes often made are believing that this is a fixed sum game and walking away too fast.
When we get down to the nuts and bolts of a car deal, we have to realize that there are several moving parts. This is in fact a integrated negotiation! To conquor this beast, we'll need to unbundle the deal into steps. The best case scenario with a deal is that you're only negotiating on price and don't have a trade in or need to finance through the dealer...but this isn't very often the case. Remember everything is negotiable so by unbundling the deal you can get the best deal at each stage. Come prepared with your own financing and quote on your trade in from another dealer like CarMax.
Finally, here are some responses to tough questions:
-Rephrase it
-Play dumb
-Defer until later
-Counter with your own question
-Qualify your answer
-Split the answer into Yes and NO parts
-Argue the question (LSP's favorite...)
Hope you didn't get bored with this and that it helps y'all out!!!...
-LSP
I've taken several negotiating classes at the graduate level and the professors like to toy with car dealers but they admit that everyone is at a disadvantage negotiating with a car dealer. Let's face the facts... car dealers negotiate every day all day long for a living. They have seen all the negotiating tactics and strategies out there so you won't be able to "out negotiate" them... But if you go in with a solid agenda and some of these techniques queued and ready to deploy you will be better off for it....
Rule #1 in negotiating a car: The only and best power you have as a car buyer is to walk away. You must use this in order to get the best deal... The dealer has every other power angle with their information. Even with the internet, we don't have all the information. By all means play dealers off of one another but don't tell them exactly which dealer is giving you the "other" quote because they'll call them to collude (I've seen this happen).
Having said that, here are some of the tactics besides walking away that may be helpful in a car negotiation or in every day life:
Bracketing - the logical bargaining process of moving towards a middle point. This is car deal 101 stuff and involves "anchoring". The dealer will anchor high and you'll anchor low. There is a set pie here so try to get as big of a piece as you can. If everything goes your way and they say they won't make any money on the deal, tell them that's ok with you. That actually happened with my TL deal when the dealer told me the "economics" of their business wouldn't let them make money on my offer so I told them that wasn't my problem and I responded in kind by telling them "my economics wouldn't allow your offer to happen". If you get a bigger piece of the pie than they do and they ask you if you can be happy knowing they are not happy respond with this: "I'm happy enough for the both of us..."
Flinching - as soon as the they give you a quote have a fast "gasp" reaction and a deep breath. This conveys that you are shocked.
Nibbles - this is basic... one last thing to close the deal often involving new items of nominal value. The response to this technique is to either be silent, walk away, or make counter with a nibble of your own.
Vise - "you gotta do better than that". This puts the ball in their court without you having to make a counter offer... but the weakness of this technique is the obvious counter of "how much better". If they counter with "how much better" you may be stuck...
Mutt and Jeff - aka Good Cop / Bad Cop. Have your significant other act as the "bad cop." This worked with my first car deal when my dad was buying me a truck (F150) in HS. We were negotiating with a salesman and my dad postured like he was about to walk and instead went to look as a lesser truck (Ranger). I then pleaded with the salesman to make a better deal for my dad so I could get the nicer truck and the salesman would make more commission. It worked that time...
Belly Up - "I've never really done XYZ before... "... this is a long shot but I wouldn't try it with an Acura...
Limited Authority - I'll have to ask my XYZ first... Although this may actually be true, it's a useful technique as this is one of the car dealers' favorites. In reality this subjects you to multiple negotiations and allows them to say "NO" but not "YES". They use this with their multiple levels of authority on deals so you should too. The best counter to this is to refuse to talk to the first level salesman and negotiate directly only with the person with the authority to make the deal.
Reinforcement - give reward (concession) for good behavior. Tell them you are close to deciding to prod them to make final concessions. May only work if you have worn them down...
Boulwarism - Take it or leave it. First offer is final offer. You may try to push them to do this to you if you are getting multiple quotes or combine this with the #1 rule of walking out.
Reluctant Buyer/Seller - "I just don't know...". This is pretty weak but may work.
Delayed Liking - don't warm up to other party very fast until they start to concede. I used this effectively in my TL deal by not conceeding or "anchoring" until they were very close to invoice.
Norm of Reciprocity - give concessions only when you get them...or in this case less often than you get them because you are facing an uphill battle with the car dealer
Agenda - control the flow and timing of the negotiations. Leave when you want, don't sign anything, question everything they ask you to initial. This is one of the only things you can control in the car deal
Chicken - both parties make big bluffs and see who gives in first. This can breed mistrust and is seen a threat, so be wary of using it in negotiations you hope will succeed. May be used when "shooting the moon" with a dealer you don't want to deal with to see if you can get a great deal...
Attitudinal Structuring - control of perceptions during negotiations. Say "I'm ready to pull the trigger today" and watch the salesman's mouth start to water. They will make concessions fast then pull out and leave.
Consistency Principle - stay with your guns... commit up front and stay with it. Low ball them at invoice and stick with it and don't give in... This will show that you say what you mean and are honest... and tell them that and point out that they came in high and are now pack peddling to get to your number. Call them out on not being consistant or trust worthy...
Shadow Negotiation - negotiation about the negotiation. This could be anything from being late to not answering a phone call. This is focused on how you will deal with each other and will arise when the power in a negotiation is not equal as is the case with a car deal.
Here's some more techniques that won't work in a car deal:
Similarity - dressing or acting like the opposition. This seems like it may work with a car deal but you'll come across as condescending or hard balling.
Contrasting - giving multiple choices then go with just one. This is a framing technique that cops use a lot...ex: cop tells you he could give you tickets for X, Y, and Z then gives you ticket for just X so you are happy in the situation. He never intended to give you Y and Z, just didn't want to argue so he out negotiated you...
Flattery - name says it all... flattering other party to weaken them... works good on the opposite sex!...
Briar Rabbit - "whatever we do, let's just not do XYZ..." when XYZ is actually something you want
Snow Jobs - bombard the other party with so much information they can't tell what's useful. This is what the car dealer will do to you!!!
Bogies - fight for something you don't want so you can give in for something you really care about. These are "throw aways"... if you don't get them then no big deal.
Time Pressure - define the end of the negotiation to pressure other party into decision/compromise. Time is on your side with a car deal, so don't use this or give into it.
Multiparty negotiations... when you bring along someone besides yourself to the negotiation be aware of a few things. First, negotiators (including yourself) will "try harder" to make a deal happen and seek a positive reaction from the "audience". Audiences put undo pressure on negotiators to compromise and cause irrational behavior. If you do bring a spouse to the negotiation, have everything scripted and know your roles. This may mean, as corny as it sounds, having "safe words" to walk, playing Mutt and Jeff as described above, and definitely have your agenda planned on what you want to cover so that you may control the flow of the negotiation. Make sure the "audience" is briefed on what to say and what not to say. You don't want them to slip and say something like "I thought you really like XYZ" when you were using Briar Rabbit technique.
Another point of interest is how to deal with the car dealer's hard balling. The proper way to address this is to do one of a few things including: ignore it, discuss it, harball back, or co-opt with them. By co-opting and making friends with them they'll find it hard to hardball a "friend". Co-opting may be tough with a car deal, so stick with the first three...
Some common mistakes negotiators make is to believe that you have to hardball or be closed off from the first interaction. You need a "game face" but not from the beginning. I saw this while I was dealing with other men walking around the dealer acting like assholes. There is a time and place for everything so mix up the hard ass routine so you catch them off guard. Other mistakes often made are believing that this is a fixed sum game and walking away too fast.
When we get down to the nuts and bolts of a car deal, we have to realize that there are several moving parts. This is in fact a integrated negotiation! To conquor this beast, we'll need to unbundle the deal into steps. The best case scenario with a deal is that you're only negotiating on price and don't have a trade in or need to finance through the dealer...but this isn't very often the case. Remember everything is negotiable so by unbundling the deal you can get the best deal at each stage. Come prepared with your own financing and quote on your trade in from another dealer like CarMax.
Finally, here are some responses to tough questions:
-Rephrase it
-Play dumb
-Defer until later
-Counter with your own question
-Qualify your answer
-Split the answer into Yes and NO parts
-Argue the question (LSP's favorite...)
Hope you didn't get bored with this and that it helps y'all out!!!...
-LSP
01-05-2009, 10:01 AM
#2
AZ Community Team
Great writeup, the last two cars i bought (my TL and my brother's Civic) I did most of the communication via email and phone. It greatly reduces the stress of dealing.
01-05-2009, 01:52 PM
#3
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Interesting read.
Most of the time when I email dealers, they'll give me some bs special dropping the price $300 or something small. Then when I make a "lowball" offer, they won't even bother to respond.
Anyone wanna chime in on this.
Most of the time when I email dealers, they'll give me some bs special dropping the price $300 or something small. Then when I make a "lowball" offer, they won't even bother to respond.
Anyone wanna chime in on this.
01-05-2009, 02:03 PM
#4
Senior Moderator
I just do my own homework and email them first with that lowball price. As long as I know its doable that is.
Main thing is in the email mention that you are ready to buy today to the first dealer to agree. That way they know you sent the same email to other dealers and that they have to compete for your sale.
Oh and that post made my head hurt. Haggling a car price shouldnt be that involved and if the dealer makes it to be then im out the door.
01-05-2009, 02:06 PM
#5
The Box
I used to be an internet sales manager at an independent dealership. I'd like to say that most of the low ball offers from the internet are honestly not even worth a response. I've literally had people email me $15K offers on a $22K car saying "the economy is getting worse and I can make you this offer".
"*&^% you!" is all I wanted to send back.
I always had a low online price where I couldn't move much. Competition on the internet has made it very difficult for dlrs to make money since people are willing to travel....
"*&^% you!" is all I wanted to send back.
I always had a low online price where I couldn't move much. Competition on the internet has made it very difficult for dlrs to make money since people are willing to travel....
01-05-2009, 02:32 PM
#7
The Box
It's the best way to purchase/sell a car IMO. It filters through most of the ugly negotiation process and just speeds up to the sale. Some people obviously still don't understand that but that's their problem. Most of the online sales I had, we agreed on a price, paperwork was completed, truck came for shipping and it was done and done. No headaches and everyone was happy.
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01-05-2009, 02:44 PM
#8
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I used to be an internet sales manager at an independent dealership. I'd like to say that most of the low ball offers from the internet are honestly not even worth a response. I've literally had people email me $15K offers on a $22K car saying "the economy is getting worse and I can make you this offer".
"*&^% you!" is all I wanted to send back.
I always had a low online price where I couldn't move much. Competition on the internet has made it very difficult for dlrs to make money since people are willing to travel....
"*&^% you!" is all I wanted to send back.
I always had a low online price where I couldn't move much. Competition on the internet has made it very difficult for dlrs to make money since people are willing to travel....
BTW, great write up by the original poster. I've seen a lot of negotiating threads on here and I tend to get an attitude about how people go about their negotiating and their view of car salesman. I can understand the stigma that is placed on us by the people who did all of the games and unscrupulous acts 10-20 years ago but for the most part that is all over. Most dealerships have even gone to half salary half commission to avoid the high pressure sales from salesman.
01-05-2009, 04:13 PM
#9
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It's the best way to purchase/sell a car IMO. It filters through most of the ugly negotiation process and just speeds up to the sale. Some people obviously still don't understand that but that's their problem. Most of the online sales I had, we agreed on a price, paperwork was completed, truck came for shipping and it was done and done. No headaches and everyone was happy.
I agree. Last two deals were *complete* (including credit approval) via e-mail before I walked in to sign the papers.
I did mine more as a bid, not sending an offer. Best couple of bids I worked with to get the best price. Made it clear that $$ saved was easily worth a couple hours drive time.
Both times the same dealer had a low bid on the first response - no hassle, no BS.
Compared to other "starting bids" this dealer saved me ~$4k the first car and ~$3.5k the second car.
It is GREAT advantage for the buyer to negotiate *away* from the dealership - you get more control over time and place and have better access to information AND can still walk away from the deal before you sign.
01-06-2009, 06:39 AM
#10
Internet dealing is the way to go.
Make a legitimate offer through e-mail, and if they won't accept, just call the dealer(s) and tell them "I'm willing to sign today if you'd accept this deal."
www.carbuyingtips.com was also a great resource.
Make a legitimate offer through e-mail, and if they won't accept, just call the dealer(s) and tell them "I'm willing to sign today if you'd accept this deal."
www.carbuyingtips.com was also a great resource.
01-06-2009, 09:33 AM
#12
Administrator Alumnus
It's interesting how many chose to avoid the more traditional tactic of face to face negotiations. Guess that's par with us living in the internet age.
Me personally, I enjoy going in and having the "heart to heart" talks with the sales people. But then again, I am negotiating all day at work, so I don't have much of a fear of anything when it comes time to striking a deal.
Me personally, I enjoy going in and having the "heart to heart" talks with the sales people. But then again, I am negotiating all day at work, so I don't have much of a fear of anything when it comes time to striking a deal.
01-06-2009, 07:48 PM
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I just do my own homework and email them first with that lowball price. As long as I know its doable that is.
Main thing is in the email mention that you are ready to buy today to the first dealer to agree. That way they know you sent the same email to other dealers and that they have to compete for your sale.
Oh and that post made my head hurt. Haggling a car price shouldnt be that involved and if the dealer makes it to be then im out the door.
Main thing is in the email mention that you are ready to buy today to the first dealer to agree. That way they know you sent the same email to other dealers and that they have to compete for your sale.
Oh and that post made my head hurt. Haggling a car price shouldnt be that involved and if the dealer makes it to be then im out the door.
My first email to them:
I was wondering how close you would be willing to get to $17,000.
I'm looking to buy ASAP as I just had a deal fall through. Thanks
Their response:
$18300.
My response:
$200 drop? I'm sure you can do better
Their response:
the tl has factory navigation & it is clean car
I didn't even bother responding to that. Is $17k even considered lowballing, considering the mileage and year of the car? Hell, I have another 06 TL at 60k miles with navi lined up at $17.5.
01-06-2009, 08:54 PM
#15
Senior Moderator
Also that email attack only really works on new cars. Not used ones since there too many variables in it.
Guess i forgot to mention that. I was never able to do email pricing when buying used. Always did that in person.
Guess i forgot to mention that. I was never able to do email pricing when buying used. Always did that in person.
01-06-2009, 09:52 PM
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Maybe you're right, if kbb and edmund's TMV count for anything, 18k should be a good deal, but I've some go lower in the 3G TL forum. I'm probably being too optimistic.
I had a feeling that was the problem.
I had a feeling that was the problem.
01-06-2009, 11:28 PM
#17
I don't care for the negotiating game with dealerships in general, but especially so on used cars because the door swings open much wider for BS than it does on new ones. On a new car you know what invoice is for a model with given options, and the condition of the car is of course supposed to be flawless, so it's never very hard to know what a good deal is on a new one.
Used cars are a totally different animal. I can produce evidence that says XYZ car is worth $13,000 and you can produce evidence that says it's *actually* worth $23,000! Then we dance around each other for a few minutes until I get bored and leave. It's just not a pleasing way to buy or sell a used car IMO.
Used cars are a totally different animal. I can produce evidence that says XYZ car is worth $13,000 and you can produce evidence that says it's *actually* worth $23,000! Then we dance around each other for a few minutes until I get bored and leave. It's just not a pleasing way to buy or sell a used car IMO.
01-07-2009, 12:35 AM
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Good write-up. I think most of that is too much for the average person to remember when negotiating a car deal, with so many factors, but some of those "tactics" I've noticed are real, natural responses people have negotiating. I can always tell those that are trying to hard to use one or another of those tricks, but most people are sincerely doing the "good cop/bad cop" without even knowing it. Even though I do it for a living, I do a lot of these things subconsciously. I liked it.
01-07-2009, 08:40 PM
#19
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Wow a thread on how to be a Jack. If I get someone who is too Jackish I don't even waste my time. Getting a 'good deal' is one thing, wasting my time is another. That's alright, in the end, if I sell them a car I still get to laugh at their purile behavior and 'tactics' that they think actually worked. Letting the dealer win a little and letting the customer win a little is best for everybody.
My two favorite things are when the programs change and the customer is like: "They changed? You mean that deal doesn't exist anymore?" And when they get all puffy and walk out thinking I'll run after them and when I don't they leave because of pride or they sulk back in.
I hate haggling it makes the job so difficult and creates bad feelings on both sides!
My two favorite things are when the programs change and the customer is like: "They changed? You mean that deal doesn't exist anymore?" And when they get all puffy and walk out thinking I'll run after them and when I don't they leave because of pride or they sulk back in.
I hate haggling it makes the job so difficult and creates bad feelings on both sides!
Last edited by CL6; 01-07-2009 at 08:43 PM.
01-08-2009, 10:13 PM
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Want good advice people? Be yourself, be honest, tell me what you want and be realistic. We can smell assholes a mile away and you'll be treated with the same attitude you bring in to us!
01-10-2009, 01:47 AM
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Yea I understand people get like that because maybe they are lied to or they read about people who are lied to. I am honest with my clients but so many just bring attitude to the dealership. The truth is often the best revenge!
You sell Acuras?
You sell Acuras?
LOL, Our programs just changed this Tuesday and I just had one of those. The guy thought he was so smart but when I showed him the new(lowered) residual values and no factory incentives, he almost shit his pants! He got all huffy and walked out the showroom and said he was gonna go to BMW - hahahaha!
Want good advice people? Be yourself, be honest, tell me what you want and be realistic. We can smell assholes a mile away and you'll be treated with the same attitude you bring in to us!
Want good advice people? Be yourself, be honest, tell me what you want and be realistic. We can smell assholes a mile away and you'll be treated with the same attitude you bring in to us!
01-10-2009, 09:56 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
LOL, Our programs just changed this Tuesday and I just had one of those. The guy thought he was so smart but when I showed him the new(lowered) residual values and no factory incentives, he almost shit his pants! He got all huffy and walked out the showroom and said he was gonna go to BMW - hahahaha!
Want good advice people? Be yourself, be honest, tell me what you want and be realistic. We can smell assholes a mile away and you'll be treated with the same attitude you bring in to us!
Want good advice people? Be yourself, be honest, tell me what you want and be realistic. We can smell assholes a mile away and you'll be treated with the same attitude you bring in to us!
3 weeks before I bought the truck, I traded my 335 in on a M3. They offered me 34k on a 52K car they wanted sticker for 5 months earlier. The car was immaculate with less than 6k miles.
01-10-2009, 01:23 PM
#24
My only car is a Bus
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It is a high pressure job and many customers lie and if you don't buy a car from me you'll buy it from someone else. I don't like the way the system works but unfortunately I doubt it'll be changing any time soon.
There are also many people working in this industry that are washed up from other jobs. I real pro isn't going to say "why" more than once or twice.
There are sales books with 300 lines and comebacks and subject chaNGERS
There are also many people working in this industry that are washed up from other jobs. I real pro isn't going to say "why" more than once or twice.
There are sales books with 300 lines and comebacks and subject chaNGERS
01-11-2009, 09:13 AM
#25
Intermediate
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Used car prices have dropped
I was looking at some used 2005-06 RL, and they are all under 50K mileage and the average price is under 25K. I am seriously thinking picking one up for daily commute vs. driving a gas sucking tank
01-11-2009, 09:43 AM
#26
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
OP: Nice write up.
I don't deal with new cars. Not at all, I just buy through a broker that goes to auction. But even this requires some homework. Once you do that, and realize the broker still has to make some money out of it, you can get a good deal and the broker/seller is still happy.
Most people don't understand that the salesman has to make something out of the deal. I mean, their salary alone does not pay the rent so they have to get some commission out of the deal. Just don't get taken to the cleaners, thats all.
Do some research, compile a list of dealers and their advertised prices, use Edmunds or KBB for some invoice pricing, then find an area that is reasonable for you and the dealer. If you walk in and ask for something that is $5K under invoice because "someone else you know" got that same price, then you're a jerk and deserve to be laughed at.
I don't deal with new cars. Not at all, I just buy through a broker that goes to auction. But even this requires some homework. Once you do that, and realize the broker still has to make some money out of it, you can get a good deal and the broker/seller is still happy.
Most people don't understand that the salesman has to make something out of the deal. I mean, their salary alone does not pay the rent so they have to get some commission out of the deal. Just don't get taken to the cleaners, thats all.
Do some research, compile a list of dealers and their advertised prices, use Edmunds or KBB for some invoice pricing, then find an area that is reasonable for you and the dealer. If you walk in and ask for something that is $5K under invoice because "someone else you know" got that same price, then you're a jerk and deserve to be laughed at.
01-11-2009, 10:49 AM
#27
Senior Moderator
Great writeup. I've purchased my last two new cars using the Internet.
With the wife's Pilot, I emailed multiple dealers, including the dealer we typically use, and took the lowest offer to our preferred dealer, who promptly did the deal. Barely any negotiations, we got a good deal, the dealer made a little money from the deal, and got to keep my service business....which has doubled now that I have the S2000.
With my RL, I emailed and the lowest offer came from my current dealer. I took that offer. The "negotiations" took ten minutes. In fact the longest part of the day was the hour it took to do the typical RL introduction before driving off the lot.
I don't have time for games at the dealership and I don't have to tolerate them anymore.
With the wife's Pilot, I emailed multiple dealers, including the dealer we typically use, and took the lowest offer to our preferred dealer, who promptly did the deal. Barely any negotiations, we got a good deal, the dealer made a little money from the deal, and got to keep my service business....which has doubled now that I have the S2000.
With my RL, I emailed and the lowest offer came from my current dealer. I took that offer. The "negotiations" took ten minutes. In fact the longest part of the day was the hour it took to do the typical RL introduction before driving off the lot.
I don't have time for games at the dealership and I don't have to tolerate them anymore.
01-11-2009, 12:10 PM
#28
thatnks for the writeup, I hope some people can read this and use it. As a vendor, I know the best way to actually negotiate is right when you are about to buy. Not like 3 weeks before you get paid. If you say, this is what I want to pay, I can do this right now or I will continue to look for a good deal, that works. And don't come off as threatening, compliment the car, "but I just can't afford it" usually works. then walk away with your number given to them and call me if you can work with me.
01-11-2009, 03:24 PM
#30
One on the right for me
I didn't need to do much to get the price I wanted. Easiest thing for me was to find a good internet price and then take that in to another dealer.
01-11-2009, 05:16 PM
#31
My only car is a Bus
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This is why I never quote prices via email. I will over the phone if I have to but even then I rarely do. 95% of the time people are just trying to get a quote to bring in to their local dealer. I just tell them an idea of what they can expect but their best deal will be when they are in front of me.
If most buyers didn't lie it would be an easy choice to provide a quote online.
If most buyers didn't lie it would be an easy choice to provide a quote online.
01-12-2009, 10:19 AM
#32
The Box
I don't know how many times I wanted to be like this guy
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01-12-2009, 01:09 PM
#33
One on the right for me
I hit post before I was finished. No one likes wasting time bitching about prices. I got a great price from a dealer out of town. Wanted to buy local. Told them I was more than happy to go out of town if they didn't want to beat their price. They undercut the other place by more than I expected. I don't remember whether it was an internet quote or a quote I got talking to someone on the phone.
01-12-2009, 01:57 PM
#34
Suzuka Master
I've always found this edmunds article to be the best advice I've read regarding purchasing a car from the dealership. It seems very fair and balanced and does account for the dealers side of the negotiation. Shows you how easily you can be taken to the cleaners too though if your working with a greedy dealership.
Confessions of a car salesman: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html
Confessions of a car salesman: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying...2/article.html
01-12-2009, 06:16 PM
#35
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And I believe you can easily turn around what you said to something like "If most dealers didn't lie it would be an easy choice for customers to buy a new car."
If a dealer wants my business and doesn't want me to shop their quote around, then that dealer needs to make sure it's their best & final quote. One that other dealers won't be able to beat. Otherwise, it's back to the capitalistic way, and shop around I go.
01-12-2009, 06:30 PM
#36
Senior Moderator
This is why I never quote prices via email. I will over the phone if I have to but even then I rarely do. 95% of the time people are just trying to get a quote to bring in to their local dealer. I just tell them an idea of what they can expect but their best deal will be when they are in front of me.
If most buyers didn't lie it would be an easy choice to provide a quote online.
If most buyers didn't lie it would be an easy choice to provide a quote online.
Isnt that risky though? You dont lose anything if you quote them via email. Your chances of them buying the car is better if you do. IMO
Personally if i got a reply back saying "lets talk in person about the best deal" I then wouldnt even bother. That response to me makes it sound like they just want me to come in to haggle which im trying to avoid.
Im fair though, if a dealer agrees to my price then i will go out of my way to buy the car from them. I will not try to see if my local dealer can match it. Why should they get the easy sale when they didnt offer the best deal in the first place.
01-13-2009, 12:58 AM
#37
I'm currently in the middle of a negotiation on an M3 with a local boutique dealer. They get alot of looky-lous and are a really low pressure place as far as dealerships go. I'll just have to play coy and let kitty come to me with these guys in terms of my numbers for trade and buy. (I sent them a fax last week and they just got around to responding in kind today...really lazy place
). Hopefully the crap economy and slow sales will get them talking turkey so I can be off motorsporting around before too long.
Patients and being able (politely) walk away from the car a time or two can work in you favor, especially with the low pressure sales outfits like that.
). Hopefully the crap economy and slow sales will get them talking turkey so I can be off motorsporting around before too long. Patients and being able (politely) walk away from the car a time or two can work in you favor, especially with the low pressure sales outfits like that.
01-13-2009, 01:01 PM
#38
My only car is a Bus
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Using the "get a quote" feature is to collect a prospect's information so you can try and get them into the store where you can try to sell them a car. Your price will always be better if you're at the dealership, this is a fact.
I don't lie to my customers but my customers lie to me. Or, if they don't lie, they simply collect my quote then take it to their local dealer where it is beaten by $100 and I've just wasted my time. I know because I've beaten others' quote by $100 and earned a sale. So I don't give out exact quotes. Maybe I lose a few sales but I save tons of time by not wasting it on people who have no intention of buying from me.
Every quote can be beaten and you'll never set the record for buying a car the cheapest.
You will get some who give a 'shopping quote' which cannot be beaten because it's not a real quote for a variety of reasons and this drives the prospective buyer into a frenzy as they try and find a lower number. In sales if you venture into this territory you really have to know what you're doing or it will end very badly.
And human nature is such that a person does not know if they have a "good quote" unless they compare it to a few others so the line of "I won't shop around" is just a myth and most often a lie when spoken by the customer.
Car sales is a zero sum game... that is to say that if you don't buy the car from me you will buy it from someone else and I am not there to make it easier for another dealer to earn a sale. This is not my first rodeo I've seen it happen many times over many years. 5% of the time I'm wrong but 95% I'm not.
I don't lie to my customers but my customers lie to me. Or, if they don't lie, they simply collect my quote then take it to their local dealer where it is beaten by $100 and I've just wasted my time. I know because I've beaten others' quote by $100 and earned a sale. So I don't give out exact quotes. Maybe I lose a few sales but I save tons of time by not wasting it on people who have no intention of buying from me.
Every quote can be beaten and you'll never set the record for buying a car the cheapest.
You will get some who give a 'shopping quote' which cannot be beaten because it's not a real quote for a variety of reasons and this drives the prospective buyer into a frenzy as they try and find a lower number. In sales if you venture into this territory you really have to know what you're doing or it will end very badly.
And human nature is such that a person does not know if they have a "good quote" unless they compare it to a few others so the line of "I won't shop around" is just a myth and most often a lie when spoken by the customer.
Car sales is a zero sum game... that is to say that if you don't buy the car from me you will buy it from someone else and I am not there to make it easier for another dealer to earn a sale. This is not my first rodeo I've seen it happen many times over many years. 5% of the time I'm wrong but 95% I'm not.
If this is the mentality, why do manufacturer websites even bother with the "Get a Price Quote" feature?
And I believe you can easily turn around what you said to something like "If most dealers didn't lie it would be an easy choice for customers to buy a new car."
If a dealer wants my business and doesn't want me to shop their quote around, then that dealer needs to make sure it's their best & final quote. One that other dealers won't be able to beat. Otherwise, it's back to the capitalistic way, and shop around I go.
And I believe you can easily turn around what you said to something like "If most dealers didn't lie it would be an easy choice for customers to buy a new car."
If a dealer wants my business and doesn't want me to shop their quote around, then that dealer needs to make sure it's their best & final quote. One that other dealers won't be able to beat. Otherwise, it's back to the capitalistic way, and shop around I go.
Last edited by CL6; 01-13-2009 at 01:03 PM.
01-15-2009, 05:59 PM
#39
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I don't lie to my customers but my customers lie to me. Or, if they don't lie, they simply collect my quote then take it to their local dealer where it is beaten by $100 and I've just wasted my time. I know because I've beaten others' quote by $100 and earned a sale. So I don't give out exact quotes. Maybe I lose a few sales but I save tons of time by not wasting it on people who have no intention of buying from me.
Every quote can be beaten and you'll never set the record for buying a car the cheapest.
And human nature is such that a person does not know if they have a "good quote" unless they compare it to a few others so the line of "I won't shop around" is just a myth and most often a lie when spoken by the customer.
Every quote can be beaten and you'll never set the record for buying a car the cheapest.
And human nature is such that a person does not know if they have a "good quote" unless they compare it to a few others so the line of "I won't shop around" is just a myth and most often a lie when spoken by the customer.
And I disagree with the idea that every quote can be beaten, particularly if you limit the radius of your search. In example, when I got my RL, I did so locally within a 25 mile radius. Dealer A gave me a quote that Dealer B could not beat. And that was it. Their first offer was their best, and I didn't need to rack my brain trying to get the price lower because I felt it was a good enough deal, especially if the other dealer couldn't match it.
If other customers are like me, I think we prefer to shop locally especially taking into consideration servicing the car after the sale. I'm sure there were dealers beyond the 25 mile radius willing to beat the offer by $100, but it eventually gets to a point where there's no financial sense in going to a dealer that may be 50 miles or more away just to save $100 on a deal. Especially since I value my time, as you've mentioned you do too.
Anyhow, I'll concede you that caveat, that it IS human nature to shop around, so taking that into account, I hope that your quotes are good enough to help you close your potential deals.
01-15-2009, 06:36 PM
#40
is in Honda heaven
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I dont mind giving price quotes to people online or over the phone but I hate I do hate it in person. Reason being is customers will come in and attempt to play these head games like they are there to buy the car and after driving like 30 cars they want a card and the best price. Well why not get the best price when you're ready to buy. I can understand different reasons like I need the wife, kid, or need to get my money together but tire kickers are the worst. Especially when they waste your time driving 20 used cars, get the best price and dont intend on buying the car like 6 months from now. The car wont be here 6 months from now!!!!
It's definitely a game that's played on both ends and is caused by both parties. Unfortunately this will go on til the end of time unless every dealer goes the Carmax route.
It's definitely a game that's played on both ends and is caused by both parties. Unfortunately this will go on til the end of time unless every dealer goes the Carmax route.