Water-S

I'm a big fan of Speed vision and usually they do a great job covering WRC, other racing stuff.
So I turned it on tonight and they had a program on called "american muscle car" it compared the old GTO(late 60's) to the new GTO.
Normally I don't watch this because I'm not to crazy about American cars but I figured since I had nothing to do what the hell.
The guy they interviewed kept on saying how it would stomp at BMW 330i. WELL DUH. a 225 hp vs 350 hp(for 2004 GTO) that's like saying a CL will stomp a 4-cylinder Accord. Put it up against a M3 Then we'll talk . This guy kept on saying your getting a world class car at 1/2 the price of a BMW. well there's a couple things there:
#1. Resale value on the BMW will be a hell of lot better
#2. Service after the sale of a BMW will be better than a Pontiac
#3. the M3 in my opinion will turn more heads than a GTO
#4. the M3 handles better than the GTO
atleast if your gonna cover the story compare apple to apple and get the facts stright.

DownUnder

The GTO and 330ci are compared to each other cause they're in the same ball park as far as pricing goes, well actually the 330ci costs several thousands mores. The M3 costs around $50K which is compared to the Vette.

Water-S

but the thing is yes it might compare as far as cost. but as far as raw HP it's not a fair comparasion. usually when I compare things I compare them HP/performance #'s first then price.
The new Z06 Vette yes will be cheaper than a new 06 M5 but I'd take a v-10 m5(if i had to the pick of the two).

vishnus11

Which is why GTO sales are lagging and the 3 series is doing just great

Water-S

wait till the e-90 it's "dead sexy"
if you get a chance pop over to bmwusa.com they got some pics of the 06 3 series up the 350(i think they'll stroke the 330 motor to 3.5 liter) it will produce 270 hp.

MADCAT

I saw one show where the guy thought he was all that against riced up Civics. Duh again smarty pants. Of course you'll beat riced up Civics. Just don't talking around well modded cars.
You'll be rapped for sure.

Water-S

dude if you watch the this one they think they're cool because their drifting basically a figure 8 course. how hard is it to drift a figure 8 course in a RWD 350 hp car.

bigman

I hear what you guys are saying, the M3 is more competition to the 04 GTO. But they prolly compared the 330 because of pricing. The GTO should have been a chevy product, it would have gone over better as a new Monte or something. Most pontiacs have this hard edged styling while the GTO looks like a stretched Cavalier. I think the styling of the long gone 4th gen firebirds were much more extreme than the GTO. But, in defense of the GTO i have driven one with 20+ thousand miles on it and it rode great. The ride was firm, yet absorbed bumps and there were no squeeks and rattels to be found. It was a really solid car, kinda made me feel like i was in an RSX with an 8 cyl.

Maximized

The GTO costs a lot less than an M3, as well as a 330Ci. You get what you pay for though. You could put 10K into a GTO and you will stomp pretty much 99.5% of the cars on the road and 99.999999999% of BMWs on the road.

Water-S

but in 5 years when that modded GTO has 75 or 80 k on the car it will probably be ready to take a dump where the M3 will be going strong

Lung Fu Mo Shi

I'm assuming you're joking about the M3?

Maximized

I really don't know many people who buy a cars and look at their depreciation 5 years down the road. Both cars will depreciate; cars are a poor "investment".

cusdaddy

Actually, the M3 is the one that probably will take a dump.. I'd much rather have a LS1/LS2 than the M3 engine which will much more likely end up blowing up

bigman

The LS family of engines is known to be some tough sonsabitches. They can take a beating and last with standard maintenance. A\And when its time for the engine to take a dump, a few grand and a rebuild later and you will have an even stronger more powerful motor than before. Most newer M3's have problems up the ass. Go to an e46 forum and see how many engines go dead early in life, and how many sub frame problems they have.

bl^5

1. German reliability aint about SHIT.
2. To fix a German car will be EXPENSIVE!

Even if the Pontiac breaks it will be cheap to fix or you can fix it yourself whereas you will have to the BMW to the dealer while stopping on the way for a case of vaseline.

Python2121

still, no one in here is goign to argue that an m3's price over the gto is not justified

bl^5

O' hell naw. The price is justified by all means. It is an exclusive and the price keeps it that way. The M3 is definitely the total driving machine (until the warranty runs out) and no one can argue that.

F23A4

When I'm comparing performance cars like the GTO or M3, I like to keep the discussion focused on....performance NOT resale or quality or price (unless the price for one vs the other is totally outrageous).

That said, the E46 M3 is a good comparison to the GTO. HECK!! Motor Trend did a comparison of the $70k CLK55 versus the $33k GTO in their May 2004 issue. Sidenote: MSRP has much more to do with economics (supply/demand, price elasticity on components & assembled product, foreign exchange, import/export, etc,...), so let's just focus on each car's engineered performance abilities.

So I'm totally with Water-S on his M3 reference and given the interviewee's comments that the GTO would 'stomp a 330i', it's more than fair game to bring up the 3-series that sits atop that food chain. (Seeing how well the E46 M3 did in that Motegi Battle, the GTO would have it's hands full in taking on an M3 under full race conditions.

Point of reference, the Corvette is regularly compared with contemporaries that are tens of thousands of dollars more (i.e.: Viper) . To wit, it still holds its own despite its relative bargain price.

Water-S

thank you
BTW:i think the next generation Z06(whatever it's called z07) will have it's hands full with a M5. both 500 hp the chevy a v-8 and the BMW a 90 degree v-10. personally i'm pulling for the m5

Minch00

Dude, the Vette isn't even in the same class as the M5! A 65k two-seater sports car versus a 90k luxury sedan............

Just because something has the same horsepower rating doesn't mean they are going to be cross-shopped

ilitig8

There was indeed an issue with the bearings in some early M3s, the majority if the failures were built within a 3 month span, some others had problems but it has been quite a while since I saw a documented S54 failure. Now that issue is over there are more and more people going FI (a travesty in my book) but they are putting down well over 400 RWHP with no apparent issues (albeit early on), some who went the whole hog NA route have 9K rev lines without issues. As for the subframe issue on an M3, I have never heard of it before, enlighten me.

All in all the LS1/2 engines are basic and strong and will rack up 200k FAR cheaper than the S54.

Vandy

bigman

Go to e46fanatics.com and do a search for ///mpwr00<sp?> he is my cousin and has had plenty of subframe issues. When he posted about it, he wasnt the only one, many people came out and talked about the issue. Also the issue with the motor wasnt resolved like they said, because his was an 04 and he lost 2 motors. One driving hard and one being babied. And he isnt the only one that lost a later model motor. It reminds me of Honda, they replace the tranny and you think everything is fine, then months later the car is back in the shop. My cousin had the M3 for 1 year and when we sat down and put the service records together the car spent a little over 5 months of that year in the dealer getting repairs. His acura legen had wayyyyyy less problems than that car. And i wish i could say that he was the only unlucky one, but quite a few local M3 guys loved the car at first and still love the power but hate the fact that the only way to make decent power on the car is to spend crazy money. FI on the M is expensive. I am not saying that every M has problems, and the M is light years ahead of the GTO. I'm just saying that the GTO is built soilid and the motor alone is not nearly as technologically advanced as the M's, but the motor is buil tougher. The LS series motor will take a beating, it can be modded far beyon where the M3 can be modded for way less money. At the end of the day i would rather be in an M3, but for the long haul id rather have the GTO if it were to be a daily driver.

BEETROOT

I see your point, but for any comparison of value the cars need to be close enough that a buyer would be considering one or the other... chances are someone considering a gto is not going to be comparing it to a car that costs $20,000 more.

F23A4

Despite similar hp ratings, it's a reach to compare a V8 powered 2-seater with a V10 powered sedan. In encompassing both vehicles, the scope of the comparison becomes a bit wide.

As Minch indicated, it's pretty unlikely that buyers will cross shop the M5 with the C6; a more intriguing comparison would be between the C6 Z06 and the Viper (high powered 2-seater muscle) OR the E60 M5 and the E55 AMG (super sports sedans).

F23A4

I understand your point of view and as I'm a po' folk, I personally cant disregard a $20k diff in price myself. It's really hard for me to quantify (to others) the types of cars I like to see compared to each other. For example, I'd like to see the following comparisons:

Monte Carlo SS (V8) vs G35 Coupe
Malibu SS (V8) vs Altima SE-R
TL vs Maxima SE
C6 vs Viper
E60 M5 vs E55 AMG
SLR vs SL65 (ungoverned )
S4 vs CTS-V (probably the most direct competitors here)
S55 vs STS-V

...not the best comparisons, but I'd like to see how each performs relative to each other under the same conditions.

DownUnder

I hope you're kidding...