Motor Trend favors A4 over TL...
05-19-2009, 07:07 PM
#241
Proving your point how? That because most of us once owned Acuras and now dont, we have no say?
Another part of why this thread took off was, to sum up the review, MT said they prefer the car with more acceleration and better ride quality, fair argument if your tastes are those two areas, but what about if it's not?, and how about the fact that the TL had on 19's and will directly contribute to the results of their preferences and that is as useless as the shit that is said here. Sorry to say but if the comparo was on an overall basis, the TL would have won more non subjective categories, hands down.
05-19-2009, 07:56 PM
#242
AZ Community Team
No need to, if one actually convey your words well enough there's no ambiguity.
And you're the one who brought up this cult of VW followers, then decided to use this "fan-boy" term. I find when someone wants to categorize people with childish phrases that sums themselves up pretty well. No need to read your other posts as you've already written enough.
So unless someone put you in charge of "all of us", please do us all a favor and write posts that don't distort other's posts.
Context. Try reading posts that way...including your own.
<---Not a fan-boy of VW/Audi......I may be guilty of being an Aston Martin and Ferrari fan-boy...but nothing more.
...and you saying you are not an Acura fan-boy made be
Do yourself a favor and find a post where I am shown as being a Audi/VW fan-boy. You won't find it...I bitch and moan and sing the praises of all cars from all mfgs.
Please do all of us here in Cartalk a favor and go back to the TL forum.
And you're the one who brought up this cult of VW followers, then decided to use this "fan-boy" term. I find when someone wants to categorize people with childish phrases that sums themselves up pretty well. No need to read your other posts as you've already written enough.
So unless someone put you in charge of "all of us", please do us all a favor and write posts that don't distort other's posts.
Context. Try reading posts that way...including your own.<---Not a fan-boy of VW/Audi......I may be guilty of being an Aston Martin and Ferrari fan-boy...but nothing more.
...and you saying you are not an Acura fan-boy made be
Do yourself a favor and find a post where I am shown as being a Audi/VW fan-boy. You won't find it...I bitch and moan and sing the praises of all cars from all mfgs.
Please do all of us here in Cartalk a favor and go back to the TL forum.
05-19-2009, 08:02 PM
#243
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,493
Received 835 Likes
on
519 Posts
Back on topic. It's pretty clear to me that Motor Trend, at least in this comparison test, favors a car that is very comfortable while offering decent performance and handling. They don't seem to care too much about sports-car like handling and braking performance. How did I come to that conclusion? Well, here are some quotes from the article:
"with the Acura taking top honors, putting down 0.91 g on the skidpad, 26.0 seconds at 0.73 g through the figure eight, and 103 feet in 60-to-0 braking. Super handling? Pontiac's rear-drive, 415-horse G8 GXP can better, um, none of those numbers. Nor, of course, can the A4, whose all-season Pirellis could only grapple for 0.84 g, 27.0 at 0.64 g, and 131 feet. "
From the above, we can see that the TL is much better in terms of handling and braking, thanks to both SH-AWD and the HPT package.
"While the TL delivers slightly more vertical motion when driving aggressively, say, at 7/10ths, its limits are nevertheless higher than the A4's, always egging you on to approach another tenth. Much of that egging comes courtesy of the 3.7-liter V-6, whose racy rhythm above 5000 rpm is literally music to the ears. Problem is, for routine, public driving -- even of the spirited sort -- that slim window from 7 to 10/10ths isn't one normally entered. If, however, autocrossing or racetrack activities routinely make the calendar, then the TL is the better, more capable choice. But for the daily grind, be it enduring rush hour or relishing a deserted byway, the A4 is more accessible and more comforting."
Yup, they said it. They are not looking for a car that can lap faster. They want something that's more suitable for daily driving, something that's more comfortable, and that's why the A4 won.
If that's the case, then why didn't they choose the TL with the HPT package? With the HPT package, you get 19" rims, which if you are a car enthusiast, would know immediately that bigger rims are usually heavier, adds unsprung weight, tire profile is lower, and all of these would make the ride less comfortable. Another thing that all car enthusiasts know is heavier wheels = slower/sluggish performance.
If they tested a normal TL SH-AWD against the same A4, and the A4 one, then I'm cool with that. I'm also fine if they tested a TL SH-AWD with the HPT package against the A4 with the S-line package, even if the A4 won. But unfortunately, that is not the case in this comparison test.
By the way, please don't call me a fan boy or whatsoever. I'm just trying to have a mature discussion here. Everyone has his/her own opinion and it's great to hear what other things, without resorting to name-calling or being disrespectful. Let's keep this civilized please.
"with the Acura taking top honors, putting down 0.91 g on the skidpad, 26.0 seconds at 0.73 g through the figure eight, and 103 feet in 60-to-0 braking. Super handling? Pontiac's rear-drive, 415-horse G8 GXP can better, um, none of those numbers. Nor, of course, can the A4, whose all-season Pirellis could only grapple for 0.84 g, 27.0 at 0.64 g, and 131 feet. "
From the above, we can see that the TL is much better in terms of handling and braking, thanks to both SH-AWD and the HPT package.
"While the TL delivers slightly more vertical motion when driving aggressively, say, at 7/10ths, its limits are nevertheless higher than the A4's, always egging you on to approach another tenth. Much of that egging comes courtesy of the 3.7-liter V-6, whose racy rhythm above 5000 rpm is literally music to the ears. Problem is, for routine, public driving -- even of the spirited sort -- that slim window from 7 to 10/10ths isn't one normally entered. If, however, autocrossing or racetrack activities routinely make the calendar, then the TL is the better, more capable choice. But for the daily grind, be it enduring rush hour or relishing a deserted byway, the A4 is more accessible and more comforting."
Yup, they said it. They are not looking for a car that can lap faster. They want something that's more suitable for daily driving, something that's more comfortable, and that's why the A4 won.
If that's the case, then why didn't they choose the TL with the HPT package? With the HPT package, you get 19" rims, which if you are a car enthusiast, would know immediately that bigger rims are usually heavier, adds unsprung weight, tire profile is lower, and all of these would make the ride less comfortable. Another thing that all car enthusiasts know is heavier wheels = slower/sluggish performance.
If they tested a normal TL SH-AWD against the same A4, and the A4 one, then I'm cool with that. I'm also fine if they tested a TL SH-AWD with the HPT package against the A4 with the S-line package, even if the A4 won. But unfortunately, that is not the case in this comparison test.
By the way, please don't call me a fan boy or whatsoever. I'm just trying to have a mature discussion here. Everyone has his/her own opinion and it's great to hear what other things, without resorting to name-calling or being disrespectful. Let's keep this civilized please.
05-19-2009, 08:16 PM
#244
AZ Community Team
Wow, back on thread topic!
I read the article and felt it was pretty fair both to both cars. MT focuses on real world driving as they typically do. Still surprised the Audi couldn't do better in braking even with A/S tires. Both nice cars but the Acura exterior styling is still pretty bad.
Your last paragraph was well written, just gotta keep reminding myself to read it over and over.
I read the article and felt it was pretty fair both to both cars. MT focuses on real world driving as they typically do. Still surprised the Audi couldn't do better in braking even with A/S tires. Both nice cars but the Acura exterior styling is still pretty bad.
Your last paragraph was well written, just gotta keep reminding myself to read it over and over.
05-19-2009, 08:22 PM
#245
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
By the way, please don't call me a fan boy or whatsoever. I'm just trying to have a mature discussion here. Everyone has his/her own opinion and it's great to hear what other things, without resorting to name-calling or being disrespectful. Let's keep this civilized please.
2) your magic statment...assuming the criteria of the test were different, that if the audi won you'd still be OK with it...The fanboys in here still would not.
05-19-2009, 11:54 PM
#246
The sizzle in the Steak
No need to, if one actually convey your words well enough there's no ambiguity.
And you're the one who brought up this cult of VW followers, then decided to use this "fan-boy" term. I find when someone wants to categorize people with childish phrases that sums themselves up pretty well. No need to read your other posts as you've already written enough.
So unless someone put you in charge of "all of us", please do us all a favor and write posts that don't distort other's posts.
And you're the one who brought up this cult of VW followers, then decided to use this "fan-boy" term. I find when someone wants to categorize people with childish phrases that sums themselves up pretty well. No need to read your other posts as you've already written enough.
So unless someone put you in charge of "all of us", please do us all a favor and write posts that don't distort other's posts.
If you don't like 'em...stop posting.
Seriously now read YOUR posts!!!You stated you know nothing of Audi/VW repeat buyers...I mentioned VW owners are cult-like. To give you insight into how much they love their cars.
I've made it clear: I and the rest of the typical posters in cartalk are not fan-boys. You clearly are an Acura fan-boy....that is fine. No shame in that.
...but you look foolish when you speak of other car makes that you know nothing about.
The more posts from you that are clearly fan-boy centric, the shorter you will last in cartalk.
05-20-2009, 01:54 AM
#247
Punk Rocker
I'm still kinda lost here guys. I can't imagine anyone is seriously saying that Acura has worse overall reliability than Audi. I mean, I am by no means an Acura fanboy, but ALL of the japanese luxury brands are more reliable than any of the German ones in general. Sure many people with Acuras have had problems and many people with Audis have not, but historically and generally, I would trust a used Honda/Nissan/Toyota far more than a BMW/Volkswagen/Mercedes....
05-20-2009, 03:39 AM
#248
Back on topic. It's pretty clear to me that Motor Trend, at least in this comparison test, favors a car that is very comfortable while offering decent performance and handling. They don't seem to care too much about sports-car like handling and braking performance.
They are not looking for a car that can lap faster. They want something that's more suitable for daily driving, something that's more comfortable, and that's why the A4 won.
If that's the case, then why didn't they choose the TL with the HPT package? With the HPT package, you get 19" rims, which if you are a car enthusiast, would know immediately that bigger rims are usually heavier, adds unsprung weight, tire profile is lower, and all of these would make the ride less comfortable. Another thing that all car enthusiasts know is heavier wheels = slower/sluggish performance.
If they tested a normal TL SH-AWD against the same A4, and the A4 one, then I'm cool with that. I'm also fine if they tested a TL SH-AWD with the HPT package against the A4 with the S-line package, even if the A4 won. But unfortunately, that is not the case in this comparison test.
They are not looking for a car that can lap faster. They want something that's more suitable for daily driving, something that's more comfortable, and that's why the A4 won.
If that's the case, then why didn't they choose the TL with the HPT package? With the HPT package, you get 19" rims, which if you are a car enthusiast, would know immediately that bigger rims are usually heavier, adds unsprung weight, tire profile is lower, and all of these would make the ride less comfortable. Another thing that all car enthusiasts know is heavier wheels = slower/sluggish performance.
If they tested a normal TL SH-AWD against the same A4, and the A4 one, then I'm cool with that. I'm also fine if they tested a TL SH-AWD with the HPT package against the A4 with the S-line package, even if the A4 won. But unfortunately, that is not the case in this comparison test.
These two cars where really designed for this as they are both manufactures mainstream (bread and butter) cars. If the MT comparo was an S4 vs a M3 then braking and handling probably would have been more of a factor along with the other performance results but the A4 and 4G aren't aimed at these categories.
While it would have been nice if the A4 had the S-Line pkg to make it more comparable we cant really blame the mags for this. I am not sure if you realize this but when these mags generally do comparo's they approach the manufactures for a vehicle from their press fleets. Depending on whats available and what that manufacture is trying to market that maybe all MT had available from Audi.
He is a thread from VWVORTEX about the same comparo and you will notice George from fourtitude that does testing, briefly touches on the topic and i have heard him and others mention it before in other mags.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4385788
You do make a good point about how the 19" HPT would make a difference in ride/comfort but i dont really think it would have made that much difference for them to notice. I read an article a few months ago interviewing the chief engineer at Audi who was involved in the development of the new A4. He stated that they actually designed the A4 where it would have outhandled the 3 series in any configuration. The executives at Audi stopped the progress though because the ride would have been severely jeopardized and they felt this would have drastically hurt sales. In the end they are probably right as the new A4 is breaking sales records around the world, except here of course although they have improved at the cost of a few of us unhappy enthusiasts......(i'll try and find the article and forward it or post it later).
In the end though both cars are very good for what they provide and it really depends on the individuals needs and wants for them to make a decision.
05-20-2009, 04:50 AM
#249
AZ Community Team
Yep, in post #191 you start it off by making implications on the word "some" (seems you don't really understand the word "some"). Then you go off make some sort of logic about VW's being #1 statement from my statement on Audi. This happens fairly consistently in most of your replies.
Seriously READ YOUR POSTS.
I wrote
"One of most interesting aspects I find with car owners is how many repeat buyers there are. I don't know what it is for VW/Audi but for about the dozen folks I know with them, none have purchased another. That's a extremely small sampling, I'd like to see something on larger scale.
"
My implication was simple, I don't know what the number is for repeat buyers for VW/Audi's. Nothing more or less. It does not imply at all I don't know nothing about VW or Audi's cultures as you state in #194.
Again you should read your posts. I never stated anything about minority or majority of Audi owners being happy.
Then you start with the stereo-typing.
Now you're assumtions about what I know or don't know about other car makes. Since you don't, you look very foolish by making assumptions of other's knowledge base and skills.
Seriously READ YOUR POSTS.
I wrote
"One of most interesting aspects I find with car owners is how many repeat buyers there are. I don't know what it is for VW/Audi but for about the dozen folks I know with them, none have purchased another. That's a extremely small sampling, I'd like to see something on larger scale.
"
My implication was simple, I don't know what the number is for repeat buyers for VW/Audi's. Nothing more or less. It does not imply at all I don't know nothing about VW or Audi's cultures as you state in #194.
Again you should read your posts. I never stated anything about minority or majority of Audi owners being happy.
Then you start with the stereo-typing.
Now you're assumtions about what I know or don't know about other car makes. Since you don't, you look very foolish by making assumptions of other's knowledge base and skills.
You posts are your own words...nice try but nobody distorted your words.
If you don't like 'em...stop posting.
Seriously now read YOUR posts!!!
You stated you know nothing of Audi/VW repeat buyers...I mentioned VW owners are cult-like. To give you insight into how much they love their cars.
I've made it clear: I and the rest of the typical posters in cartalk are not fan-boys. You clearly are an Acura fan-boy....that is fine. No shame in that.
...but you look foolish when you speak of other car makes that you know nothing about.
The more posts from you that are clearly fan-boy centric, the shorter you will last in cartalk.
If you don't like 'em...stop posting.
Seriously now read YOUR posts!!!You stated you know nothing of Audi/VW repeat buyers...I mentioned VW owners are cult-like. To give you insight into how much they love their cars.
I've made it clear: I and the rest of the typical posters in cartalk are not fan-boys. You clearly are an Acura fan-boy....that is fine. No shame in that.
...but you look foolish when you speak of other car makes that you know nothing about.
The more posts from you that are clearly fan-boy centric, the shorter you will last in cartalk.
05-20-2009, 06:05 AM
#250
AZ Community Team
I'm still kinda lost here guys. I can't imagine anyone is seriously saying that Acura has worse overall reliability than Audi. I mean, I am by no means an Acura fanboy, but ALL of the japanese luxury brands are more reliable than any of the German ones in general. Sure many people with Acuras have had problems and many people with Audis have not, but historically and generally, I would trust a used Honda/Nissan/Toyota far more than a BMW/Volkswagen/Mercedes....
A former colleague worked for Audi (he was a S/W engineer). We'd talk not only about cars, but the business of building them. He told me how good the SAP ERP S/W was that Audi integrated into their enterprise level platform. It not only tracked every car, but keep genealogy of all the sub-assemblies and components. It kept tabs on all aspects of Audi's operation, including engineering, sales, marketing, personel,...
It even tracks the vendor lot number for the bolts that were used for the rod and bearing caps for the engines.
One of worst horror stories at VW was the Brazil plant where in the early 90's the workers were instructed to replace the spot welding rod tips after X number of welds. The workers would then sign a sheet of paper indicating they'd done the operation. After VW of Germany on a random quality check discovered the welds for the uni-body structures on some cars were poor they discovered that the workers were only changing them at intervals of muliple times when they were suppose to (3X, 4X,...).
The latest spot welding machines VW use have sensors that not only check to verify the tip replacement, but they run a test batch that does a series of welds where they are ripped apart and the tension strength recorded. All that info goes automatically into the SAP system. No human intervention needed.
One of my wife's co-worker's husband is a BMW factory tech, and we also cars when we get together. The stigma of BMW's having high maintenance also gets to him (he has 1988 5MT 735 with over 300K miles). I was joking to him about the recent switch on the electric water pumps on BMW engines, which although a technical innovation makes me wonder (I've worked on my brother's BMW's and electrics in the past were not their strong point). He said they saw a training video for the new motors where they mention that the motors were designed and tested for ~500K miles of operation in mixed duty operation. So far he's replaced none, same goes for the SMG gearboxes. Since the introduction a decade ago, he's yet to replace one. Occasionaly a sensor may go bad but he said the actuators and internals are as relaible as the standard MT from BMW from his experience.
I think the Germans have made alot of improvement to the Japanese. The Japanese have also recently stumbled (even soccer Mom's in my neighborhood have heard about Accord/Odysses 4AT/5AT problems). And some times the Japanese reduce the quality, when the Camry was redesigned ~7-8 years ago, Toyota went away from the 3 piece door seals (2 on the car body, 1 on the door) that provided triple protection from sound and water leaks into the interior. They went to the traditional American automaker single piece seal, worried some but Toyota claims it works just as well.
About 7-8 years ago Schrempp (CEO of MB) made a great speech on MB quality problems and how they needed to rethink MB quality culture. One of the results of that was MB used make alot of their fasteners, they discovered external vendors did not only cheaper but had the same or better quality control.
One thing that's making reliability more problematic for all automakers is the incredible amount of ever inceasing electronics in the cars. One long term worry is the availablity of the electronic modules since now almost all chip manufacturers do end of life builds way before a product's end of life.
Lotta rambling
05-20-2009, 06:13 AM
#251
AZ Community Team
One last rambling note my first car was a used 1976 Audi 100LS. One of my friends also had one, we used to work on them together through college. Still have scars on my hands from repairing them. So over the last 3 decades for amusement I watch other Audi owner's expericenes. They've always engineered some great cars (being a engineer I love great design), just keeping them on the road for a long time is the hard part.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 05-20-2009 at 06:15 AM.
05-20-2009, 09:21 AM
#252
Somehow that got construed by the fanboys that Audi was more reliable then Acura... and they've had this phantom discussion about that with a few of us who decided to stop responding to them b/c they just don't get that.
Hope that helps you to not be lost any further. Honestly, your best bet is to abandon the thread and just
.
05-20-2009, 10:23 AM
#253
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
Yep, in post #191 you start it off by making implications on the word "some" (seems you don't really understand the word "some"). Then you go off make some sort of logic about VW's being #1 statement from my statement on Audi. This happens fairly consistently in most of your replies.
Seriously READ YOUR POSTS.
I wrote
Seriously READ YOUR POSTS.
I wrote
Do us all a favor already and take the tampon out of your pussy and shove in your mouth.
Youre a broken fucking record, and the music sucks.
05-20-2009, 10:23 AM
#254
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one said that the current A4 has terrible reliability, only that reliability may be one reason to choose the TL over the A4, sort of like how exterior styling is a reason to choose the A4 over the TL. Unfortunately, the Audi fanboys couldn't tolerate the TL being considered superior in any aspect.
05-20-2009, 10:49 AM
#255
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
No one said that the current A4 has terrible reliability, only that reliability may be one reason to choose the TL over the A4, sort of like how exterior styling is a reason to choose the A4 over the TL. Unfortunately, the Audi fanboys couldn't tolerate the TL being considered superior in any aspect.
05-20-2009, 11:18 AM
#256
Punk Rocker
That's the thing... no one has said that... but the fanboys have made it like it has been said. All that has been said by several posters is that they would choose an Audi A4 over an Acura TL today for various reasons... and that Audi is not as "scary" as it used to be years ago b/c they have improved their reliability dramatically.
Somehow that got construed by the fanboys that Audi was more reliable then Acura... and they've had this phantom discussion about that with a few of us who decided to stop responding to them b/c they just don't get that.
Hope that helps you to not be lost any further. Honestly, your best bet is to abandon the thread and just .
Somehow that got construed by the fanboys that Audi was more reliable then Acura... and they've had this phantom discussion about that with a few of us who decided to stop responding to them b/c they just don't get that.
Hope that helps you to not be lost any further. Honestly, your best bet is to abandon the thread and just
.
05-20-2009, 11:19 AM
#257
The sizzle in the Steak
Yep, in post #191 you start it off by making implications on the word "some" (seems you don't really understand the word "some"). Then you go off make some sort of logic about VW's being #1 statement from my statement on Audi. This happens fairly consistently in most of your replies.
Seriously READ YOUR POSTS.
I wrote
"One of most interesting aspects I find with car owners is how many repeat buyers there are. I don't know what it is for VW/Audi but for about the dozen folks I know with them, none have purchased another. That's a extremely small sampling, I'd like to see something on larger scale.
"
My implication was simple, I don't know what the number is for repeat buyers for VW/Audi's. Nothing more or less. It does not imply at all I don't know nothing about VW or Audi's cultures as you state in #194.
Again you should read your posts. I never stated anything about minority or majority of Audi owners being happy.
Then you start with the stereo-typing.
Now you're assumtions about what I know or don't know about other car makes. Since you don't, you look very foolish by making assumptions of other's knowledge base and skills.
Seriously READ YOUR POSTS.
I wrote
"One of most interesting aspects I find with car owners is how many repeat buyers there are. I don't know what it is for VW/Audi but for about the dozen folks I know with them, none have purchased another. That's a extremely small sampling, I'd like to see something on larger scale.
"
My implication was simple, I don't know what the number is for repeat buyers for VW/Audi's. Nothing more or less. It does not imply at all I don't know nothing about VW or Audi's cultures as you state in #194.
Again you should read your posts. I never stated anything about minority or majority of Audi owners being happy.
Then you start with the stereo-typing.
Now you're assumtions about what I know or don't know about other car makes. Since you don't, you look very foolish by making assumptions of other's knowledge base and skills.
Repharasing the argument isn't helping you.
Seriously now....I'm done talking to brick walls.
Enjoy fantasyland.
05-20-2009, 11:22 AM
#258
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
The debate ends quickly for me as well.
05-20-2009, 11:51 AM
#261
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,493
Received 835 Likes
on
519 Posts
I agree that MT was looking more for an overall great luxury daily driver that still provided a good value for a premium car and thats why the A4 won.
These two cars where really designed for this as they are both manufactures mainstream (bread and butter) cars. If the MT comparo was an S4 vs a M3 then braking and handling probably would have been more of a factor along with the other performance results but the A4 and 4G aren't aimed at these categories.
While it would have been nice if the A4 had the S-Line pkg to make it more comparable we cant really blame the mags for this. I am not sure if you realize this but when these mags generally do comparo's they approach the manufactures for a vehicle from their press fleets. Depending on whats available and what that manufacture is trying to market that maybe all MT had available from Audi.
He is a thread from VWVORTEX about the same comparo and you will notice George from fourtitude that does testing, briefly touches on the topic and i have heard him and others mention it before in other mags.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4385788
You do make a good point about how the 19" HPT would make a difference in ride/comfort but i dont really think it would have made that much difference for them to notice. I read an article a few months ago interviewing the chief engineer at Audi who was involved in the development of the new A4. He stated that they actually designed the A4 where it would have outhandled the 3 series in any configuration. The executives at Audi stopped the progress though because the ride would have been severely jeopardized and they felt this would have drastically hurt sales. In the end they are probably right as the new A4 is breaking sales records around the world, except here of course although they have improved at the cost of a few of us unhappy enthusiasts......(i'll try and find the article and forward it or post it later).
In the end though both cars are very good for what they provide and it really depends on the individuals needs and wants for them to make a decision.
These two cars where really designed for this as they are both manufactures mainstream (bread and butter) cars. If the MT comparo was an S4 vs a M3 then braking and handling probably would have been more of a factor along with the other performance results but the A4 and 4G aren't aimed at these categories.
While it would have been nice if the A4 had the S-Line pkg to make it more comparable we cant really blame the mags for this. I am not sure if you realize this but when these mags generally do comparo's they approach the manufactures for a vehicle from their press fleets. Depending on whats available and what that manufacture is trying to market that maybe all MT had available from Audi.
He is a thread from VWVORTEX about the same comparo and you will notice George from fourtitude that does testing, briefly touches on the topic and i have heard him and others mention it before in other mags.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4385788
You do make a good point about how the 19" HPT would make a difference in ride/comfort but i dont really think it would have made that much difference for them to notice. I read an article a few months ago interviewing the chief engineer at Audi who was involved in the development of the new A4. He stated that they actually designed the A4 where it would have outhandled the 3 series in any configuration. The executives at Audi stopped the progress though because the ride would have been severely jeopardized and they felt this would have drastically hurt sales. In the end they are probably right as the new A4 is breaking sales records around the world, except here of course although they have improved at the cost of a few of us unhappy enthusiasts......(i'll try and find the article and forward it or post it later).
In the end though both cars are very good for what they provide and it really depends on the individuals needs and wants for them to make a decision.
I just noticed I had so many typos in my last post..lol..
anyways..thanks cp3117 for the great response!
I agree that the TL and A4 are just entry luxury sedans with some sportiness, and are not sports cars. However, I'd say, when the buyer chooses to go with the SH-AWD, AND the HPT package, he gotta be looking for something quite sporty. You are right though, according to the article, even with the HPT package, the TL still has excellent ride and comfort. But when comparing to a A4 with ADS, then obviously there's some difference.
Yup, I agree, these mags can't always choose the cars that they want. I mean and Car and Driver was comparing the Accord, Mazda6, and Ford Fusion, they couldn't find the base trim level for the Accord. So, I'm aware of the fact that mags don't always get to choose. However, I'm surprised that they weren't able to get a TL without the HPT package. I'd imagine keeping a few sets of wheels/tires shouldn't be too difficult. I guess Acura didn't know MT was looking for a more balanced car?
That's the autmotive world, the engineers want something sporty, but usually the management would go against that. This happens in most brands, including Honda/Acura (for example, where's 6MT in V6 TSX). I agree, it's unfortunate for us.
And I agree 100% with your final paragraph.
05-20-2009, 12:01 PM
#262
AZ Community Team
05-20-2009, 12:05 PM
#263
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
05-20-2009, 12:06 PM
#264
AZ Community Team
05-20-2009, 12:09 PM
#265
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
05-20-2009, 12:15 PM
#266
AZ Community Team
05-20-2009, 12:19 PM
#267
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
05-20-2009, 12:22 PM
#268
AZ Community Team
Yeah, and your last line sums up you up well. Can't speak facts and truth move to trash.
05-20-2009, 12:23 PM
#270
AZ Community Team
05-20-2009, 12:23 PM
#271
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Styling-wise, I think the A4 is a lot cleaner than the 4G TL.
Overall I'd say : 3GTL > A4 > 4GTL in looks.
Value and common-sense, TL >>>>>>>>> A4. Audi's drop value like mad. I can go out right now and grab an '07 A4 in the $15k range, 2.0T model. Even though they started out less expensive than a 2.0T A4, the '07 TL's still command ~$20k+.
4-banger German entry-lux for ~$40k+ just makes me want to vomit, particularly as it's more than a lot of overlap with VDub tech/parts.
335i/M3 are still ahead of A4/S4 IMHO, and will be until Audi learns how to put the damned things on a diet (weight and price). There's no reason the ~$40k 335i should have so much better power/weight than a ~$50k+ S4.
Though if I did have the scratch for one of these cars, I'd probably play it conservative and get a low-miles CPO 3G TL-S and call it a day.
Overall I'd say : 3GTL > A4 > 4GTL in looks.
Value and common-sense, TL >>>>>>>>> A4. Audi's drop value like mad. I can go out right now and grab an '07 A4 in the $15k range, 2.0T model. Even though they started out less expensive than a 2.0T A4, the '07 TL's still command ~$20k+.
4-banger German entry-lux for ~$40k+ just makes me want to vomit, particularly as it's more than a lot of overlap with VDub tech/parts.
335i/M3 are still ahead of A4/S4 IMHO, and will be until Audi learns how to put the damned things on a diet (weight and price). There's no reason the ~$40k 335i should have so much better power/weight than a ~$50k+ S4.
Though if I did have the scratch for one of these cars, I'd probably play it conservative and get a low-miles CPO 3G TL-S and call it a day.
05-20-2009, 12:31 PM
#273
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I was forced to take one for free, it'd be the TL though. Far less likely IMHO to be eating $1k repairs every few months in 5 years, and I'm a long-term car owner.
If it were a short-term lease, I might consider the A4, but that's about the only way you'd see me in one of them : for free, and for a limited-time-only.
My family has had pitiful luck with VWs, Audis, and Mercedes products. Good luck with BMW/Acura/Honda/Ford.
05-20-2009, 12:36 PM
#274
I had to laugh only b/c I'm not sure if you read the whole thread, but pretty much 4 of the 7 pages are about reliability. 
Many on this forum have Audi's and had great luck, but others know of people who have not had so much luck. Twenty people will have twenty different experiences... that's the beauty of the forums.
BTW, I don't think I've seen you on here before... so welcome aboard
05-20-2009, 12:37 PM
#275
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
Thank you very much. Welcome to Acurazine
I know... I like this guy too
05-20-2009, 12:46 PM
#277
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had to laugh only b/c I'm not sure if you read the whole thread, but pretty much 4 of the 7 pages are about reliability. Many on this forum have Audi's and had great luck, but others know of people who have not had so much luck. Twenty people will have twenty different experiences... that's the beauty of the forums.
BTW, I don't think I've seen you on here before... so welcome aboard
And thanks for the welcome, good to be here
05-20-2009, 03:33 PM
#278
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
http://wrmag.nextautos.com/issue/46
pages 150-151
"After all the spec sheet plainly told us that Z would be faster than the rest, and our previous experience with the car made it evident that it was the most track-focused of the bunch.
Thankfully, comparison test exist for a reason, and driving the Nissan in rotations with other competent coupes was far more enlightening then even the deepest statistical analysis."
Wow, even a car mag says a subjective point of view with cars makes more of a difference than any spec data.
wheird....
pages 150-151
"After all the spec sheet plainly told us that Z would be faster than the rest, and our previous experience with the car made it evident that it was the most track-focused of the bunch.
Thankfully, comparison test exist for a reason, and driving the Nissan in rotations with other competent coupes was far more enlightening then even the deepest statistical analysis."
Wow, even a car mag says a subjective point of view with cars makes more of a difference than any spec data.
wheird....
05-20-2009, 04:00 PM
#279
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep. Good point, and I think it stands pretty well :
All the numbers in the world can't make a car the right or wrong choice for everyone. Being that pretty much any new car will do fine daily driving duties, and that even econoboxes perform about like sports cars did ~20 years ago, the intangibles of 'feel', 'style', 'gotta-have-it' factors come into play pretty highly.
I have strong opinions on auto subjects, but I'll also always be the first to say that my opinion is just an opinion, and at the end of the day, only the guy getting behind the wheel can decide what is best within the limits of the choices and budget at hand.
All the numbers in the world can't make a car the right or wrong choice for everyone. Being that pretty much any new car will do fine daily driving duties, and that even econoboxes perform about like sports cars did ~20 years ago, the intangibles of 'feel', 'style', 'gotta-have-it' factors come into play pretty highly.
I have strong opinions on auto subjects, but I'll also always be the first to say that my opinion is just an opinion, and at the end of the day, only the guy getting behind the wheel can decide what is best within the limits of the choices and budget at hand.
05-20-2009, 04:04 PM
#280
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,199
Received 4,850 Likes
on
2,588 Posts
You really are a breath of fresh air in this stale thread. no-homo