winstrolvtec

That's well and fine, but my experiences are the opposite and again the key word general. Your comparison to one car does not justify the meaning of general when applied here and it's a bit contradictory that your german makes are then described as on par with the Hondas and not the other way around, so you subconsciously agree. Nothing is a garauntee, when it comes to reliability it's about playing the percentages. Not implyig anything personal or baout your case but a lot of issues are user related, as well.

taitando

WTF?!?

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

^ Seriously... who let these guys out?

Moog-Type-S

put down the bong.

Sarlacc

My experiences have been the same.

My CL was the "worst" of all my vehicles. Where my Japanese built Hondas and Nissan were/are bullet proof.

My former old Bimmer was also bulletproof...but it was also back from a time when bimmers were known for their reliability.

JD23

I can't waste my time either with people who cannot support their arguments with verifiable evidence Especially ones who get huffy when they are challenged.

Sarlacc

He's had two solid audis and one tranny ridden acura...I fail to see where he lacks verifiable evidence?

Replies like this are of the "huffy when challenged" nature.

Go back to your forum little boy, Car Talk is reserved for real enthusiasts who don't always have to have Acura on the tip of their dick.

subinf

Shocking...


My next purchase will not be a TL but most likely an Audi.

Loseit

iTrader: (1)

can we move this thread back to the TL forum? It is painful reading this stuff. It is right up there w/ the TL being good looking.

phile

If we can just keep the noobs in the TL forums that'd be great.

JD23

And I've had four Acuras that have been reliable, so what's your point? If you're going base your conclusions on anecdotal evidence and not published reliability data, whose anecdotal evidence is more valid? All I wanted to know was how a sample size of three can be considered valid, when all reliability data based on a large sample size has Acura reliability above Audi. I'm guessing logic and a knowledge of statistics is too much for some on this forum.

I'm guessing you fail to see the irony in you calling me a little boy, when you're a 30 year old who curses people off on internet forums like an 8 year old who just learned dirty words. Grow up.

YeuEmMaiMai

My CL-S has been less reliable than I would have liked overall but it has been by far more reliable than my co worker's A6. He is contstantly in the shop for lower ball joints, engine seals, brake repairs, transmission problems, etc. In this last year, he has spent more on maint for his car than I did for my CL-S and my 94 accord in their entire lifetimes

subinf

I've been visiting the TL forums less and less recently.

Sarlacc

Its not always about what the magazines tell you. Its not always about what little minute details you might find in the technical specs and what the manual says.

A lot of it boils down to first hand experience. JB has his, you have yours, and rest of us has ours. And in many cases they differ, and in many cases they are the similar.

I can read all day about how X car is the greatest in the world and nothing else is better, but if I go out and buy one and it turns out to be a piece of shit. Well, my personal experience is brand X is a piece of shit but brand Y has treated me well and I like them.

All your whining and crying is boiling down to how is it humanly possibly people on this might not like Acura. May never buy them again based on past experience.

That is logic.

And if you don't like my "8 year old" ways because you dont like what we have to say than you can simply wander back to your forum. But try and do it with dignity, cause my guess is you'll just complain how the people in car talk were mean and made you all butt hurt.

JD23

Statistically, anecdotal evidence is not reliable, but there is no point arguing this anymore. My argument was centered only on reliability; I'm not even debating whether the TL is better overall than the A4, because it is a completely subjective argument, and, for that matter, I might very well choose the A4.

You have a right to your opinion, as do I, but why am I "whining and crying" when I don't agree with you? I didn't say you act like an eight year old because I disagree with your opinion, I made that statement because you resort to some sort of juvenile name calling in most of your posts. True to form, that's how you concluded your last post.

winstrolvtec

A man simply states reasoning for him buying Acura in of all the places an Acura forum, you "car" guys jump on one of our threads and push your non intellectual bullshit on us. I hope you realize there is or was actually a enlightening discussion going on and I will say thanks to those who had more to say then just, I would buy the Audi, the TL is ugly, wow, that's great guys, I hope you didn't strain yourselves. Anytime you want to add anything useful feel free or maybe it's just us, did we not see the subjective opinion only sign?

Costco

How can somebody NOT use subjectivity when determining what car they want to buy? Some people can stand the new TL's looks.... I for one cannot. I don't care how great a car is for the price, if I don't like the exterior styling I would never buy it.

Car Talk has gone way downhill ever since TL threads started moving over here.

Sarlacc

Same argument applies here that always has, don't like what is being said fuck off back your own forum.

We didnt ask for your silly thread to land over here.

There are several other reasons most of us would choose the Audi over the Acura at this point in time, butterface looks aside.

There was no enlightening discussion. There was a bunch of Acura fanboys dissing a great car because they fear ze germanz.

Sarlacc

Yeah well, graphs and charts don't add up to this conclusion so you, sir, are wrong!!!

SSFTSX

Well i will add some. This is the most detailed commentary on upcoming car. I am looking at above 0.93gs and more than 72mph on slalom.


http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature..._Audi_S4.shtml





Boost. No, it's just not a crappy energy drink or lame synonym for car theft. Boost from a supercharger or turbocharger, paired with smaller displacement engines and often all-wheel drive, is a shared theme in a genre of cars born out of the WRC. There's a generation of kids who grew up on PlayStation rally games, saved up for their first WRX or Evo, and now are ready to take the next step. It is this rally generation — one not unfamiliar with the idea of natural resource conservation or the need to be greener, who should be most interested in the 2010 Audi S4.

Of course, Audi is not new to forced induction or rally racing. It made its modern name in rally and raised the word "quattro" to legendary status. The first S4 was of the breed as well — a 250-hp, twin-turbocharged V-6, all-wheel drive sedan that pre-dated both the Evo and the WRX in the American market.
Most car enthusiasts know where it went from there. Audi dropped the turbo V-6 in favor of a V-8 engine with one more horsepower than its M3 peer's inline six. Boost was blown off, if only for a while.

That brings us to 2008. The BMW M3 has gone V-8 as well, and moved upmarket to duel with the likes of the outgoing Audi RS 4. Meanwhile, that rally generation is graduating from college, making more money, thinking about kids, and looking to trade out of their boy-racer rides. BMW was already in buyers' sights with the turbocharged, all-wheel drive 335xi sedan, but Audi was staying the course with its naturally-aspirated V-8. With the 2010 S4, however, the brand is looking to chase after boost fiends again, this time with a supercharger.

Essentially, Audi has taken a built 3.0-liter version of its direct-injection V-6 and fastened an Eaton four-vane, roots-style supercharger on top. The setup is good for 333 hp and 324 lb-ft from a wide 2900 to 5300 rpm. That's 11 horsepower down from the old V-8 S4, but the power curve tells the story: Torque is up by 12 lb-ft over more revs, dropping the car's official zero-to-62 figure by half a second, to 5.1.

You'll notice a "V6T" callout on the front quarter panel, but that's a little confusing. We hear "T" stands for any forced induction — not just turbos — in Audi-speak. We overheard a snarkier explanation — "T" stands for "thoopercharged," but that's definitely not the official word. It begs the question though — why a kompressor and not a turbo?

To answer that, we hooked up with the VW Group's engine czar Wolfgang Hatz. Hatz says they ran two programs internally — one examining turbo technology, the other examining superchargers. A challenge in design, according to Hatz, is the packaging. Audi's V-package engines are short, so optimum placement for either getup is in the cylinder valley. Placing turbos behind the engine made ULEV2 emissions hard and turbo lag worse, and placement in the S4's crowded engine bay would be tight.

Torque was another factor. It's more immediate with the supercharger, making it feel like a V-8 — which makes sense, as this engine is expected to see duty in the A6, Q5, and Q7 as well. Hatz still believes turbos are the go-to tech for higher-performance models like the RS 6, but thinks the supercharger is better for 300-350 hp applications.




No surprise, this engine is more fuel-efficient than its predecessor. Audi touts 27 percent less consumption and off-the-record early estimates at EPA figures puts the car at 17 mpg city and 26 mpg highway for six-speed manual models, while and 17 mpg city and 27 mpg highway is the unofficial figure for cars fitted with Audi's new seven-speed S-tronic.

Those are the two transmission choices: a six-speed manual and Audi's new seven-speed S-tronic — their name for a dual-clutch transmission. Audi says the outgoing S4 sold in a 50:50 ratio of manuals to automatics, though they expect that to change to 40:60 in favor of S-tronic due to its technical superiority — faster shifts, better fuel economy, and equal acceleration performance to the stick.



All of it sounds good so far, but it'll still need more of a hooligan factor to win over the aging Evo guys. That's where Audi's new rear sport differential comes in. The main function of the sport differential is to send power to the outer rear wheel in a turn to help stabilize — and even throttle-steer — the car. Where ESP helps control the car via braking individual wheels, the sport differential does the same with engine torque in an effort to neutralize the effects of understeer. The rear sport differential is optimized to work even when the car is coasting and even when the clutch is engaged. If it sounds familiar, that's because similar systems are employed under various names by Mitsubishi (the Evo's Super All-Wheel Control) Acura (Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive) and BMW (the X6's Dynamic Performance Control).

The sport differential itself utilizes a superposition gear on both the left and right sides, connected via a multi-disc clutch that can apportion almost all of the power by an electro-hydraulic actuator to the right or left rear wheel. Action is controlled by computer that reacts in under 100 milliseconds.

All of the cars we sampled paired the sport differential with the Audi Drive Select (ADS) system. In addition to its three-tiered (comfort, auto, dynamic) settings for steering weight and ratio, throttle response, dynamic suspension, and shift points on the automatics, the sport differential also gets three levels of tune when paired to ADS.

In "comfort," the sport differential is used exclusively for enhanced stability. One way it does this is by eliminating load reversal upon accelerator lift or quick brake application. In "dynamic," the focus is the car's agility. "Auto" mode seeks a mix of the two, influenced by the input characteristics of the driver.

It is believed that the sport differential and Audi Drive Select will be offered separately as options when the S4 hits dealers next fall as a 2010 model. Word is the sport differential would retail for around $900, and ADS already sells in the A5, S5, and A4 for $2900.

Inside, the car seems quiet — almost too quiet. The engine note you hear has the bark of a V-6 without the wail of the elder S4's V-8. What exhaust note there is comes off as muffled from the inside — perfect for those looking for refinement, though we bet many S4 owners will turn to the aftermarket for audible enhancement and the side benefit of freeing more ponies. Likely buyers of this car know the capabilities of the aftermarket and aren't shy about exploiting it.

The S4's supercharger is barely audible — again by design, we're told. There's a brief whine just over 2000 rpm off-throttle. Audi erred on the side of refinement again, figuring most customers will want the blower seamlessly indistinguishable, while those who want more probably know who to call to make it more bawdy.

Under full acceleration, torque comes on fast. Throttle inputs seem quicker than previous Audis we've driven and we've got the ADS system set to "dynamic." Depress the accelerator and the power comes on a bit unnaturally — the only real give-away that it is a supercharged six if you're intimate with the power delivery of the V-8.

Our car sports the new seven-speed S-tronic and it feels more sorted than pre-production units we've driven. Standing starts come as seamlessly as a torque-converter Tiptronic, though shifts happen much faster and cog choice is much more intuitive in auto mode. The transmission doesn't have launch control, but it does vary how high the engine revs before engaging the clutch, depending on the setting of the Audi Drive Select system. There's no "sport" selection point on the shift gate for ADS cars, so those looking for spirited handling and dynamics without spastic revving for daily use will want to tailor their own settings in the MMI system.

Once free of roundabouts and tight curves bordered by looming stone walls, we push the S4 hard. The steering, variable in both ratio and weight, is precise and communicative. The sport differential pushes the car into a bit of oversteer as we power through a traffic circle, but the roads are unfamiliar and we're on our way to a track. There's no need to go all Ronin in this little Spanish town.

Shortly thereafter we're at the Circuito Mallorca. The track has a very small, tight layout that looks like a set of tangled earbuds in the bottom of your man-purse. It is well suited for fleshing out the handling dynamics of the S4, sans the straights needed for nosebleed speeds. To make things interesting, it's just started raining, which should make the car that much more animated.

The first few laps of the course are taken with Audi Drive Select in "dynamic" and ESP still engaged. Learning the course, the added stability of the system is clearly evident. Where we expect the car to chatter its way into ESP-numbed oversteer, the S4 continues to track.

Hit a corner wrong, with harsh steering or throttle inputs, and the new Audi does what we expect it to do — understeer and engage the ESP. Then again, it does seem a bit smoother, like it's a bit less willing to fall into the ESP safety net in the first place. A few more laps and we are learning that the S4 is willing to forget about the nets almost entirely and focus on differential-controlled corrections. Some throttle-on oversteer is viable, even with ESP still active — so long as you're smooth with your lines and your inputs.

Disengaging ESP, the sport differential is still active. Go hot into a corner and turn in — you can feel the trailing throttle begin to slide you around. Keep your boot in it, correct the steering and the S4 will slide out in a full four-wheel drift. It's hard to believe the S4 would be this cheeky on a dry surface, but the dynamics are still there. Audi claims a 55:45 weight distribution, though the car actually feels more balanced than that.




Where S4s and Audis of old were mildly enjoyable to toss around in such conditions, the sport differential makes this one seriously entertaining. Sliding around yet another tight corner on the Circuito Mallorca, we're ready to declare this the second best-handling Audi ever behind the R8. The sport differential is a game changer for Audi, and we can only hope it will proliferate into as many of their cars as possible.
Exterior differences from the A4 are formulaic given Audi's consistent design language. New elements are almost identical to the S5's changes — S-line body treatment with red S4 badges, painted sills, aluminum trim at the front and rear and the same grey grille with chrome uprights. Standard 18-inch wheels, minimum to fit over the S4's front brakes, and optional 19s again are straight out of the S-car parts bin. The only design wildcards here are a larger spoilered trunk lid and the "V6T" badge on the quarter panel that kind of loses some cachet in translation, especially when parked next to a V-8 or V-10 on an Audi lot.


Inside, the S-car formula continues with more bits seen first in the S5. This means a different instrument cluster, shift knob, accented stitching, and bolstered sport seats available in contrast leather colors or Alcantara. As with the coupe, beltline trim comes in carbon fiber, aluminum, wood, or steel weave. It's a top-notch formula, but formulaic nonetheless.

A quick call to a couple of tuners after we returned gave us a little bit of insight on tuning potential for the motor. Alabama's APR Tuned got the most specific, speculating on what we might see for the car. They envision there will be an initial wave of products that hits the market centering on software upgrades, pulleys, belts, downpipes, and exhausts. President Stephen Hooks estimates these should net horsepower in the low-to-mid 400 range. A larger supercharger would be needed to raise the power further, and space is already at a premium. As a result, bulged hoods may become a necessary design cue in staged aftermarket development of the S4.

The new S4 will begin sales in Europe as early as Q1 of 2009. Pricing has already been announced at €50,950 for the sedan and €52,600 for the Avant. That's a welcome €4500 below the outgoing B7 S4, and we hope the newfound economy will carry over to the States.

Will Generation Rally accept the S4 as a stepping stone from an Evo or the like? We suspect it will. The S4 lacks the raw edginess of those turbo toyboxes, but most of us start to grow out of stark interiors and buckboard rides as our hairline recedes and our 401K grows. When they're ready for the move, the Audi S4 — with its all-wheel drive, forced induction and refined hooligan nature — should be a familiar configuration with a lot more luxury and refinement.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's the problem, they have had decades of experience testing a lot of cars, and most cars don't have that brake torquing issue, except for some high end cars like the 550i.

You see the difference in trap speed there? 104mph of the S5 vs 112mph of the M3. That's 8mph of difference. 104mph - 8mph = 96mph = trap speed of my car = 02 TL-S. I don't think by making my car slightly lighter and more torque would have eliminated the gap with the S5. 8mph in trap speed is a lot man. In fact, 104mph trap speed i about the same as the IS350, G37 and 335i. Difference is, these cars obtain 17-20mpg, while the Audi according to your link gets 16mpg.

oonowindoo

who are these ppl???

i would choose A4 over TL just based on looks alone.

winstrolvtec

Great car, you mean the worst value in the Audi lineup that just so happens to be getting reduced to only an entry level 4 cylinder next year, and by the looks of it the S4 will need to step in and fill the void, what a shame. Audi is moving down segments and Acura up, how's that for fucking off, you can have your pointless "cars" forum on an Acura based website if it makes you feel better but this my friend is our thread and it's likely to be closed before we go anywhere.

SSFTX, go buy one already, let me know how it works out, but you are not selling me one so just let it go.

Sarlacc

Well...lets see.

Last time I checked. Audi still uses much higher quality materials on their interiors.

Oh, and there is the little issues of the dealer service depts. With Acura you have to be lucky to be near a dealer with a good and customer oriented service dept. Its very hit and miss since Acura holds NO control over their dealers. For every one great service dept you find for Acura there are 10 royally shitty ones. I have found Honda service depts that shamed Acura ones.

Audi....I'd say the majority of their service depts take care of their customers with no worry. Its not Lexus, but its still keeping in sync with its luxury marque.

throw a big ass chrome beak on the nose and add a v6 to the tsx and Acura is going upscale. yessir. movin on up.


God lock this thread so these idiots go away.

winstrolvtec

They can use all the high quality materials they want, a grandpa can appreciate it's look, not me, and it's definately not worth the premium they charge for it. Let me do you a favor as nobody ever told you that you can service an Acura in a Honda dealer, any place of preference, or simply do it yourself. Audi, as I can imagine, has lots of experience rectifying various problems for many customers, so I have to admit, you may be right about that, but for the record, where I live the Audi dealers service departments are by far the worst in the county. I wouldn't classify myself as an enthusiast if I called Audi or Acura for that matter a true luxury brand. Up segment doesn't mean upscale, but if you look at what the A4 offers for their top of the line, super luxurious, German supreme engine compared to the new TSX V6 than I guess we can make that argument afterall.

phile

i pray they don't discover ramblings, cause that'll just doom us all.

JD23

I agree. The problem I have is that some people argue that average reliability is subjective, and not something that can be measured statistically. These are the same people who think a sample size of two or three is significant. Generally, it bothers me when people try to spread misinformation.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

He said that owning one Acura and two Audi's were not "evidence" enough. Then when I presented him with info saying that my opinion was formed using much more information then just personal experience b/c of the access I have to both an Audi and Acura dealer, he replied saying it wasn't good enough and that my opinion was still wrong. It's just not worth continuing with people like this...

JD23

I'm trying to have a civil debate about this, but you provided no elaboration when I challenged your evidence. You said that you have personal contact with an Audi dealership owner and an Acura dealership. What type of data were you privy to through this contact? What % of Acuras and Audis needed repair? I'm curious what data you used to form your opinion that Audi is more reliable.

I cited published dependability data by Consumer Reports and JD Power, which shows that Acura, in general, has been more reliable than Audi, and specifically, the TL has been more reliable than the A4. How do you refute this data?

Legend2TL

I looked a new A4 interior and it's material quality looks no better than a 2G TSX or a 4G TL. It looked to me like Audi downgraded their dash covers and center stackup switches and displays.

In terms of the Acura dealers, is that your opinion or something you read?

I know some neighbors and former colleagues (S4's, A4's, A8, A6 wagon) who've had nothing but complaints about the Audi service from Criswell (Annapolis MD) and Valley Audi (Towson MD).

One had 10+ check-engine lights from a leaking turbo oil seal causing the O2 sensor to go off. When the S4 reached 75K miles (emissions warrenty), Criswell told him it would now cost $4K to fix yet ignored his previous attempts to get it resolved. Another A4 owner I know had the plastic vacuum pipe distintegrate after a few years, cheap part (~$30) but it takes a day to remove the intake plenum to replace.


When you write
"Audi....I'd say the majority of their service depts take care of their customers with no worry."

followed up by

"For every one great service dept you find for Acura there are 10 royally shitty ones."

then

"God lock this thread so these idiots go away."

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.


I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon).

The A8 is gone and replaced by a MDX, owner grew tired of repeated dealership visits, all under warrenty but he sold after two years (he owned a E38 7-series before so he already was used to German cars).

The other neighbor has his A6 wagon on the market since the gearbox needs total replacement at 120K miles. It was driven fairly gently by his wife. She loved the car, but is highly annoyed at the short lifespan of the gearbox considering she never abused the car and kept up the maintenance.

I also know former Acura 2G TL owners who will never own a Acura again because of their experience but for folks to make claims that Audi are on overall par with Acura for relaibility is absurd. Even VW of North America's CEO made the statement that their reputation is tarnished because of reliabiliy.

Moog-Type-S

"Some happy Audi owners"......Yea....90% of Audi owners are miserable...and Audi keeps selling vehicles and making bigger and bigger market gains because owners are unhappy. Makes sense.

As far as VW Audi reliability issues...the company is referring to the past not the present.

By your logic VW became the #1 automaker in the world by producing horrible products that people buy because they want a miserable car ownership experience.

Legend2TL

That's your logic and words (I never wrote anything alluding to that). Audi and VW's US reputation for reliabilty is well documented with Consumer Reports and JD Powers.

One of most interesting aspects I find with car owners is how many repeat buyers there are. I don't know what it is for VW/Audi but for about the dozen folks I know with them, none have purchased another. That's a extremely small sampling, I'd like to see something on larger scale.

In terms of past and present, that has yet to be seen. Major quality shifts don't happen overnight or in a year or two. MB learned that the hard way in the late 90's to early 00's, and BTW their sales didn't suffer as much as one would have thought

charliemike

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

If he's not happy with Criswell he should have gone somewhere else.

It's like going to the dentist for a toothache over and over and being told there's nothing wrong and then your teeth fall out.

If I went to a dealer with a problem and they couldn't fix it, I'd go somewhere else. If that didn't work, I'd pay for an independent mechanic to look at it and then take his findings to the dealer and show them.

This happens at every dealer. I took my Pontiac Grand Prix in four times to three dealers because I was unable to start it before Adams in Annapolis finally figured out it was the fuel pump. I had to have the car towed by Pontiac several times (under warranty) and wasted countless hours waiting for a tow truck and sitting at a dealer before it was fixed.

If Adams hadn't fixed it I would have tried someone else.

Throwing one's hands in the air and being a victim is just silly.

Moog-Type-S

Sorry...it was you that said there are "some happy Audi customers"
Your flawed logic, not mine.

...and again we are talking about today's Audi & VW not the past.
Their improved reliability recently is not something everyone here just randomly made up. It is current.

You are corrent you know nothing about it.
The VW car culture is like a cult....many customers for life.
...and that is one aspect of Audi/VW owner ship....and repeat customers does not translate directly into a car company having reliable/quality vehicles...it may be part of the reason, but not entirely.

Quality changes occur by model, material, and vehicle engineering.
...and yes they can occur in as little as a year or two. Look at all the new vehicles and engines VW/Audi has put out over the past few years...then you get the idea of the turn-around.

charliemike

If you look at where Audi was three years ago and where they are now, it's night and day. Audi is still average but they were down with Mini and Land Rover back before 2006.

I haven't had any major issues with my S4 in 15k miles (at 41k now). Parts break and others are designed to last a certain amount of time and not indefinitely.

If someone prefers Acura, I'm happy for them. Right now, I like what Audi is doing but believe me, I'll be the first to jump ship if someone builds a better car that fits my criteria.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Wow, so much fail in this thread.

for Moog, Charlie and Junior.

And to the idiots thinking Audi is sub par in today's age, think again.

Oh and by the way, I've owned 3 acura's, 1 of which I still have, and '08 Audi. The build quality in the Audi far surpasses ANY Acura I've owned and driven and I've driven every Acura, multiple times, that has been on the market for the last 5 years with the exception of the RL and NSX.

I wouldn't have purchased an Audi if I felt that reliability WAS going to be an issue. Those discounting Audi's reliability, why don't you head over to Audizine or Audiworld forums and listen in on what people have to say about the B7 and B8 A4, it's a completely different tune than owners of the B6 were crying. That's what someone earlier mentioned to about night and day difference in reliability.

Oh and to add, the outcry of reliability for the B6 in particular mainly stemmed from blown coil packs and electrical problems. Many owners just keep coil packs in their trunk, and swap 'em out right there on the side of the road. How many Acura owners from 2000-2003 do you know of kept transmissions in their trunk to swap out? Both had reliability issues, but the reliability issue in the Audi wasn't a major one at all, just an annoying one that was easily fixed.

These blanketed Audi/VW reliability statements are getting to be old.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Missed edit time...

Everyone has problems with their cars, to say that Audi across the board is still having problem is I onlky have 6500 miles on my '08 A4, too early to tell if I will have any major issues, but so far everything is going well. If problem does occur, I wouldn't automatically peg it as reliability fail on Audi's part, but instead just a random failure, kinda like how the steering rack, IMRC needed to be replaced on my CL, things that shouldn't have gone bad in the number of miles they did. Oh and don't forget having to have the brakes redone at only 17K miles under TSB. Please don't talk about Audi reliability issues when there are TSB's out from Acura for problems that shouldn't have occurred in the first place.

It's not so much looking at the number of cars that are brought in for repairs, some people may decide to live with the problem forever. The TSB's aren't the sole indicator, but IMHO a good indicator as to the number of problems a manufacturer has found that may need attention in the forseeable future for their fleet.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

to Sarlacc and phile, missed you guys too.

Legend2TL

No I said "I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street".

Again to remind you, you wrote

""Some happy Audi owners"......Yea....90% of Audi owners are miserable...and Audi keeps selling vehicles and making bigger and bigger market gains because owners are unhappy. Makes sense.

As far as VW Audi reliability issues...the company is referring to the past not the present.

By your logic VW became the #1 automaker in the world by producing horrible products that people buy because they want a miserable car ownership experience."

Just you don't forget, you brought up the logic. I never implied my logic in any way.

In terms of the current quality, a co-worker I don't know that well just got a A3 so I'm curious how well her Audi holds up over time. My neighbor had a 2006 A8, and although he loved driving it it's problem list was fairly extensive and it's not that much in the past.

The only way to find out how well the current models are is wait 5 years for the truth to come out. Audi and VW both have had several previous campaigns to improve quality, it still remains to be seen if this attempt is successful or not. So just because you claim

"...and again we are talking about today's Audi & VW not the past.
Their improved reliability recently is not something everyone here just randomly made up. It is current. "

You gotta back it up with something more than words, results are all that matter inquality. It's rare in the auto industry for quality initiatives to take hold in a year or two, it's taking MB now almost a decade.

The one german car maker who truly took quality and reliabilty to heart was Porsche. They hired a former Lexus Senior VP of Operations to spend months going over all aspects of Porsche's operation. That was 10 years ago, and Porsche underwent extensive changes to their design/development/operations/supplier's that truely changed the company. The result's speak for themselves Porsche has done extremely well for quality/reliability metrics in JD Powers and others as well.

Legend2TL

I agree with you, I'm curious to see if Audi can achieve results. They obviously know how to engineer great cars but getting them reliable has always been a reoccurring challenge to them.

In terms of what makes you happy, that's the most important thing. My brother's had 5 BMW's and now a Porsche Cayenne Turbo, he always drives my 2005 TL and says "nice car but it has no soul".