Motor Trend favors A4 over TL...
05-19-2009, 11:41 AM
#201
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you look at where Audi was three years ago and where they are now, it's night and day. Audi is still average but they were down with Mini and Land Rover back before 2006.
I haven't had any major issues with my S4 in 15k miles (at 41k now). Parts break and others are designed to last a certain amount of time and not indefinitely.
If someone prefers Acura, I'm happy for them. Right now, I like what Audi is doing but believe me, I'll be the first to jump ship if someone builds a better car that fits my criteria.
I haven't had any major issues with my S4 in 15k miles (at 41k now). Parts break and others are designed to last a certain amount of time and not indefinitely.
If someone prefers Acura, I'm happy for them. Right now, I like what Audi is doing but believe me, I'll be the first to jump ship if someone builds a better car that fits my criteria.
Personally, I hope newer Audis prove to be reliable. When I am looking for a new car in one or two years, the A4/S4 will be high on my list based on its great design, as long as I am confident that it will be a reasonably reliable car.
05-19-2009, 11:47 AM
#203
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Missed my edit window on the previous post. For everyone's information, here is Consumer Reports' predicted reliability rankings for 2009.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg
05-19-2009, 11:49 AM
#204
I'm trying to have a civil debate about this, but you provided no elaboration when I challenged your evidence. You said that you have personal contact with an Audi dealership owner and an Acura dealership. What type of data were you privy to through this contact? What % of Acuras and Audis needed repair? I'm curious what data you used to form your opinion that Audi is more reliable.
I cited published dependability data by Consumer Reports and JD Power, which shows that Acura, in general, has been more reliable than Audi, and specifically, the TL has been more reliable than the A4. How do you refute this data?
I cited published dependability data by Consumer Reports and JD Power, which shows that Acura, in general, has been more reliable than Audi, and specifically, the TL has been more reliable than the A4. How do you refute this data?
Go back and re-read every post I made, then show me where I said that Audi was more reliable then Acura (as you indicated in bold above)? If you can do that, then I may continue to have a discussion with you. The problem is going to be that I never said that... these are words which you put in my mouth, yet I never said. You are trying to create a debate/discussion with words that were never said. Therefore, I see no need to continue discussing anything with you since you do not possess basic reading comprehension...
05-19-2009, 11:50 AM
#205
AZ Community Team
He also went to Valley Audi (Hunt Valley) and they also reset the ECU and told him everything was good. Criswell is where is bought it and he lived Arundal County.
After the 75K and Criswell telling him he needed a turbo, cat, and labor for a total of $4K he contacted Audi of North America. He is a S/W engineer and not much a car guy. He didn't get very far with the Audi rep. So when people on this thread claim how great Audi dealerships are, I remember his experience. My neighbor with the A8 had no problems getting his A8 fixxed, he just grew tired of driving 1 hour each way to the dealer to drop off/pick up.
Audi may be improving but it's quality but from my observations from colleagues/neighbors/friends fairly recent models (2000-2006) it's not the case. I realize again I'm looking at a extremely small number of owners but the probablity of all these bad cases happening is also pretty small. And I also know several 2G TL owners with troublesome transmissions (one on his 3rd 4AT).
After the 75K and Criswell telling him he needed a turbo, cat, and labor for a total of $4K he contacted Audi of North America. He is a S/W engineer and not much a car guy. He didn't get very far with the Audi rep. So when people on this thread claim how great Audi dealerships are, I remember his experience. My neighbor with the A8 had no problems getting his A8 fixxed, he just grew tired of driving 1 hour each way to the dealer to drop off/pick up.
Audi may be improving but it's quality but from my observations from colleagues/neighbors/friends fairly recent models (2000-2006) it's not the case. I realize again I'm looking at a extremely small number of owners but the probablity of all these bad cases happening is also pretty small. And I also know several 2G TL owners with troublesome transmissions (one on his 3rd 4AT).
The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.
If he's not happy with Criswell he should have gone somewhere else.
It's like going to the dentist for a toothache over and over and being told there's nothing wrong and then your teeth fall out.
If I went to a dealer with a problem and they couldn't fix it, I'd go somewhere else. If that didn't work, I'd pay for an independent mechanic to look at it and then take his findings to the dealer and show them.
This happens at every dealer. I took my Pontiac Grand Prix in four times to three dealers because I was unable to start it before Adams in Annapolis finally figured out it was the fuel pump. I had to have the car towed by Pontiac several times (under warranty) and wasted countless hours waiting for a tow truck and sitting at a dealer before it was fixed.
If Adams hadn't fixed it I would have tried someone else.
Throwing one's hands in the air and being a victim is just silly.
If he's not happy with Criswell he should have gone somewhere else.
It's like going to the dentist for a toothache over and over and being told there's nothing wrong and then your teeth fall out.
If I went to a dealer with a problem and they couldn't fix it, I'd go somewhere else. If that didn't work, I'd pay for an independent mechanic to look at it and then take his findings to the dealer and show them.
This happens at every dealer. I took my Pontiac Grand Prix in four times to three dealers because I was unable to start it before Adams in Annapolis finally figured out it was the fuel pump. I had to have the car towed by Pontiac several times (under warranty) and wasted countless hours waiting for a tow truck and sitting at a dealer before it was fixed.
If Adams hadn't fixed it I would have tried someone else.
Throwing one's hands in the air and being a victim is just silly.
05-19-2009, 11:54 AM
#206
AZ Community Team
You call the people that think Audi's reliability is sub-par idiots then you wonder why there is so much fail in the thread?...
Fortunately SD23 posted
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg
May not be the final word but definitely better than people's claims of reliability in this thread.
Fortunately SD23 posted
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg
May not be the final word but definitely better than people's claims of reliability in this thread.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 05-19-2009 at 11:57 AM.
05-19-2009, 12:04 PM
#207
You call the people that think Audi's reliability is sub-par idiots then you wonder why there is so much fail in the thread?...
Fortunately SD23 posted
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg
May not be the final word but definitely better than people's claims of reliability in this thread.
Fortunately SD23 posted
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/Reliability.jpg
May not be the final word but definitely better than people's claims of reliability in this thread.
That chart is for PREDICTED reliability of the 2009 models. That proves nothing except what one magazine THINKS may happen for one model year
. You also have to keep in mind that many manufacturers have completely redesign models, or introduced new ones which, historically, may bring down the overall reliability of the whole nameplate in the short-term. It has nothing to do with what will happen, or how car makers (including the German manufacturers) have improved over the years....
05-19-2009, 12:09 PM
#208
The sizzle in the Steak
No I said "I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street".
Just you don't forget, you brought up the logic. I never implied my logic in any way.
In terms of the current quality, a co-worker I don't know that well just got a A3 so I'm curious how well her Audi holds up over time. My neighbor had a 2006 A8, and although he loved driving it it's problem list was fairly extensive and it's not that much in the past.
The only way to find out how well the current models are is wait 5 years for the truth to come out. Audi and VW both have had several previous campaigns to improve quality, it still remains to be seen if this attempt is successful or not. So just because you claim
"...and again we are talking about today's Audi & VW not the past.
Their improved reliability recently is not something everyone here just randomly made up. It is current. "
You gotta back it up with something more than words, results are all that matter inquality. It's rare in the auto industry for quality initiatives to take hold in a year or two, it's taking MB now almost a decade.
The one german car maker who truly took quality and reliabilty to heart was Porsche. They hired a former Lexus Senior VP of Operations to spend months going over all aspects of Porsche's operation. That was 10 years ago, and Porsche underwent extensive changes to their design/development/operations/supplier's that truely changed the company. The result's speak for themselves Porsche has done extremely well for quality/reliability metrics in JD Powers and others as well.
Just you don't forget, you brought up the logic. I never implied my logic in any way.
In terms of the current quality, a co-worker I don't know that well just got a A3 so I'm curious how well her Audi holds up over time. My neighbor had a 2006 A8, and although he loved driving it it's problem list was fairly extensive and it's not that much in the past.
The only way to find out how well the current models are is wait 5 years for the truth to come out. Audi and VW both have had several previous campaigns to improve quality, it still remains to be seen if this attempt is successful or not. So just because you claim
"...and again we are talking about today's Audi & VW not the past.
Their improved reliability recently is not something everyone here just randomly made up. It is current. "
You gotta back it up with something more than words, results are all that matter inquality. It's rare in the auto industry for quality initiatives to take hold in a year or two, it's taking MB now almost a decade.
The one german car maker who truly took quality and reliabilty to heart was Porsche. They hired a former Lexus Senior VP of Operations to spend months going over all aspects of Porsche's operation. That was 10 years ago, and Porsche underwent extensive changes to their design/development/operations/supplier's that truely changed the company. The result's speak for themselves Porsche has done extremely well for quality/reliability metrics in JD Powers and others as well.
You need to read what you wrote. You stated
"I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon).
If I use your logic about ownership experience then Acura is
when it comes to quality.....going through 2 "glass" transmissions...and the first one at only 7,000 miles on my CL-S would mean that Acura is bottom of the bunch when it comes to quality....but this is not true. Acura on the whole is not poor in reliablity. What is true was that the 5 speed auto trans was very, very, very poor quality. One aspect of the entire Honda/Acura product line.
Same goes for VW/Audi. Sure there are quality/reliabilty issues just like with Acura. (See coil packs)
To say that there is no vast improvement over the past couple of years for Audi/VW is just plane ignorant.
I see that there are quality/reliability flaws in all the car companies, and that a car company that is rated "poor" in quality by some survey can produce a car that is of high quality.....and by the same token a company that is rated "best" can produce a poor quailty product as well. It's pretty fluid in terms of mfg. & quality.
If you are going to try to wave the Acura/Honda fan-boy banner in cartalk....I hate to tell you, but that's not going to fly in here.
You are going to find that we are fans of all types of cars regardless of the badge in here.
Fanboys end up looking stupid in here.
05-19-2009, 12:21 PM
#209
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go back and re-read every post I made, then show me where I said that Audi was more reliable then Acura (as you indicated in bold above)? If you can do that, then I may continue to have a discussion with you. The problem is going to be that I never said that... these are words which you put in my mouth, yet I never said. You are trying to create a debate/discussion with words that were never said. Therefore, I see no need to continue discussing anything with you since you do not possess basic reading comprehension...
Originally Posted by juniorbean
at you for assuming I"m using small samples and at you for not being on Acurazine from 2001-2006 or so when about 85% of the forum members were having their transmissions replaced... some more then 2 or 3 times each. Compare that with the "problems" reported on Audizine or Audiworld during the same time and the Audi's were better overall.
Originally Posted by juniorbean
Lastly, not only do we know the GM and the Service Manager of the local Audi dealership, but we know the owner as well. Additionally, we know a few execs at the automotive group which owns the Acura dealer... so I'd put my money on the fact that I have access and have seen more "samples" then you... 
05-19-2009, 12:26 PM
#210
I agree. The problem I have is that some people argue that average reliability is subjective, and not something that can be measured statistically. These are the same people who think a sample size of two or three is significant. Generally, it bothers me when people try to spread misinformation.
In addition, if anyone else had those same experiences, when it came to a survey or a magazine saying this, that and the other about reliability or another person on a forum saying how much trouble they had, I don't think it would discourage x person all that much, since its the complete opposite of their experience.
05-19-2009, 12:37 PM
#211
And as much as it surprised me, there are quite a few 3G TL owners who are experiencing tranny issues at the moment. Some not only have issues but actually needed their entire transmission replaced. This is not a trend that I'd like to see.
05-19-2009, 01:22 PM
#212
Punk Rocker
Hmmm, what the crap is going on in this thread? Just skipped to the last page and I find an argument over who is more reliable: Audi or Acura? Is this a joke and whats the punchline????
05-19-2009, 01:35 PM
#213
Everyone has personal experiences, put them away, they don't make for a overall argument only an idividual one and we all have the right to buy whatever we want for whatever reasons. No brand makes a flawless vehicle, period. To date, the best information that can be used to determine the issue was already presented, right or wrong, there is no better way to determine that. While Audi has increased it's reputation for reliability recently so has Acura. Hypothetically, if the two brands were equal in terms of reliability, which they are not, and a serious problem occurs in both, which is now the bigger disappointment in terms of reliability in relation to price? I mean that is what you pay more for right, "quality"?
05-19-2009, 02:05 PM
#214
To say that there is no vast improvement over the past couple of years for Audi/VW is just plane ignorant.
I see that there are quality/reliability flaws in all the car companies, and that a car company that is rated "poor" in quality by some survey can produce a car that is of high quality.....and by the same token a company that is rated "best" can produce a poor quailty product as well. It's pretty fluid in terms of mfg. & quality.
If you are going to try to wave the Acura/Honda fan-boy banner in cartalk....I hate to tell you, but that's not going to fly in here.
You are going to find that we are fans of all types of cars regardless of the badge in here.
Fanboys end up looking stupid in here.
I see that there are quality/reliability flaws in all the car companies, and that a car company that is rated "poor" in quality by some survey can produce a car that is of high quality.....and by the same token a company that is rated "best" can produce a poor quailty product as well. It's pretty fluid in terms of mfg. & quality.
If you are going to try to wave the Acura/Honda fan-boy banner in cartalk....I hate to tell you, but that's not going to fly in here.
You are going to find that we are fans of all types of cars regardless of the badge in here.
Fanboys end up looking stupid in here.
I know you guys and gals here are pissed off that this was moved, but from my perspective its sure nice to see people that are true car enthusiasts that arent blinded by the brand and actually know that there are other brands out there that are possibly better than an Acura........go figure.
I agree, that to say there have been no vast improvements by the VAG group over the last few years is ridiculous. Just look at initial quality studies where Acura is below the industry standard while Audi is above.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/06/...t---again.html
I purchased my first VW in 2006 (2.0T/GLI) and it has been extremely reliable compared to the various Toyota, Nissan, Honda and NA products i have owned over the years.
In 2006 when i was checking Consumer Reports etc they made it sound like the first pot hole you hit the car would be written off. Its funny when i looked at CR in 2006 (GLI vs TSX) CR gave the TSX great ratings and the Jetta poor, but when you went to actual input from owners on their site 75% of the TSX had problems with their vehicle compared to 25% from the Jetta.
After seeing how their results varied so much from actual owners and after my own experience after 4 years of ownership.....lets just say I dont weight CR very high anymore for vehicle purchases.
05-19-2009, 02:11 PM
#215
AZ Community Team
You continuously reinterpret my words repeatedly so (to your dead horse symdrome) here it is again
I said
"I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon)."
Which means (and I'm going out on limb here I know).
1) I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there
2) but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon).
Does not imply
1) majority or 90% are unhappy (as you stated)
2) "As if there are only "some" happy owners of Audi vehicles"
So stick to what I actually wrote and not what you construe or misrepresent. Again I never stated anything about logic in ownership experience, you seem to like using logic.
In terms of the Acura/Honda infamous 4AT/5AT, it is both a quality and reliabilty problem. It's been well documented (LA Times did a excellent piece on years ago even going to the machine shops in Ohio where some of the faulty maching was done).
The 4AT/5AT has some design flaws but also more important was a external subcontractor to Honda that was doing the machining, heat treating, and finishing of some of the AT components. There were several sub-contractors doing the same components (redundacy for supply change managment).
The result of the one manufacturer providing poor components resulting in a huge amount of AT failures. Honda/Acura was also at fault for not providing thorough incoming inspection (tolerance issues and hardness checks).
However, notice one extremely important difference it involves one major reliability problem being the AT. It was a disaster for Honda/Acura but other systems in their vehicles have proven themselves to be very reliable.
The very limited group of Audi owners I know, have had a very diverse type of problems. Nothing in one particular area (say AT for Acura's that are highly troublesome across the spectrum).
This is also what I see in Consumer Reports, Acura 2G TL's have black dots mixed with alot of half-red and solid red dots. Go over to the Audi section and it's not the same case.
It's not like all class of problem but turbo oil seal, total AWD AT failures, intermittent CAN bus failure, plastic intake pipe disintergrates. That points to a more systematic arena of quality problems across the whole vehicle. Not something you solve in a year or two.
So if you'd like to debate with some real facts concerning Audi reliability/quality, great. If you have some menaingful dialog that shows they've moved toward a more Toyota Production System model or some other CPI improvment, nice.
But if you're going to misrepresent my statements you going to look stupid to me.
I said
"I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon)."
Which means (and I'm going out on limb here I know).
1) I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there
2) but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon).
Does not imply
1) majority or 90% are unhappy (as you stated)
2) "As if there are only "some" happy owners of Audi vehicles"
So stick to what I actually wrote and not what you construe or misrepresent. Again I never stated anything about logic in ownership experience, you seem to like using logic.
In terms of the Acura/Honda infamous 4AT/5AT, it is both a quality and reliabilty problem. It's been well documented (LA Times did a excellent piece on years ago even going to the machine shops in Ohio where some of the faulty maching was done).
The 4AT/5AT has some design flaws but also more important was a external subcontractor to Honda that was doing the machining, heat treating, and finishing of some of the AT components. There were several sub-contractors doing the same components (redundacy for supply change managment).
The result of the one manufacturer providing poor components resulting in a huge amount of AT failures. Honda/Acura was also at fault for not providing thorough incoming inspection (tolerance issues and hardness checks).
However, notice one extremely important difference it involves one major reliability problem being the AT. It was a disaster for Honda/Acura but other systems in their vehicles have proven themselves to be very reliable.
The very limited group of Audi owners I know, have had a very diverse type of problems. Nothing in one particular area (say AT for Acura's that are highly troublesome across the spectrum).
This is also what I see in Consumer Reports, Acura 2G TL's have black dots mixed with alot of half-red and solid red dots. Go over to the Audi section and it's not the same case.
It's not like all class of problem but turbo oil seal, total AWD AT failures, intermittent CAN bus failure, plastic intake pipe disintergrates. That points to a more systematic arena of quality problems across the whole vehicle. Not something you solve in a year or two.
So if you'd like to debate with some real facts concerning Audi reliability/quality, great. If you have some menaingful dialog that shows they've moved toward a more Toyota Production System model or some other CPI improvment, nice.
But if you're going to misrepresent my statements you going to look stupid to me.
<--Beats dead horse
You need to read what you wrote. You stated
As if there are only "some" happy owners of Audi vehicles....as if the majority are unhappy. And your statement is wrong....sorry.
If I use your logic about ownership experience then Acura is when it comes to quality.....going through 2 "glass" transmissions...and the first one at only 7,000 miles on my CL-S would mean that Acura is bottom of the bunch when it comes to quality.
...but this is not true. Acura on the whole is not poor in reliablity. What is true was that the 5 speed auto trans was very, very, very poor quality. One aspect of the entire Honda/Acura product line.
Same goes for VW/Audi. Sure there are quality/reliabilty issues just like with Acura. (See coil packs)
To say that there is no vast improvement over the past couple of years for Audi/VW is just plane ignorant.
I see that there are quality/reliability flaws in all the car companies, and that a car company that is rated "poor" in quality by some survey can produce a car that is of high quality.....and by the same token a company that is rated "best" can produce a poor quailty product as well. It's pretty fluid in terms of mfg. & quality.
If you are going to try to wave the Acura/Honda fan-boy banner in cartalk....I hate to tell you, but that's not going to fly in here.
You are going to find that we are fans of all types of cars regardless of the badge in here.
Fanboys end up looking stupid in here.
You need to read what you wrote. You stated
As if there are only "some" happy owners of Audi vehicles....as if the majority are unhappy. And your statement is wrong....sorry.
If I use your logic about ownership experience then Acura is
when it comes to quality.....going through 2 "glass" transmissions...and the first one at only 7,000 miles on my CL-S would mean that Acura is bottom of the bunch when it comes to quality....but this is not true. Acura on the whole is not poor in reliablity. What is true was that the 5 speed auto trans was very, very, very poor quality. One aspect of the entire Honda/Acura product line.
Same goes for VW/Audi. Sure there are quality/reliabilty issues just like with Acura. (See coil packs)
To say that there is no vast improvement over the past couple of years for Audi/VW is just plane ignorant.
I see that there are quality/reliability flaws in all the car companies, and that a car company that is rated "poor" in quality by some survey can produce a car that is of high quality.....and by the same token a company that is rated "best" can produce a poor quailty product as well. It's pretty fluid in terms of mfg. & quality.
If you are going to try to wave the Acura/Honda fan-boy banner in cartalk....I hate to tell you, but that's not going to fly in here.
You are going to find that we are fans of all types of cars regardless of the badge in here.
Fanboys end up looking stupid in here.
05-19-2009, 02:21 PM
#216
I know you guys and gals here are pissed off that this was moved, but from my perspective its sure nice to see people that are true car enthusiasts that arent blinded by the brand and actually know that there are other brands out there that are possibly better than an Acura........go figure.
05-19-2009, 02:39 PM
#217
Now that this topic is in car talk i think we can all see that this isnt really a surprise. When you look at MT facts and read their review its very easy to see why they decided on the A4 over the 4G.
When you read the OP you can see this thread was doomed from the beginning. It was basically designed in hopes of people bashing MT because god forbid the 4G wasnt the winner.....although at the beginning i believe some people where seriously accusing Audi of bribing MT with advertising money and thats why it won...
05-19-2009, 02:50 PM
#218
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
The funniest part about it is that many of you are still considering Acura, if you don't already own one, for the same reasons you pointlessly contradict us, and still spent a hell of a lot of time in an Acura based website, considering all the better options you say you have.
We have all just been a around for a long time and got over the acura fan boy-ism, if we ever had it to begin with.
05-19-2009, 02:50 PM
#219
AZ Community Team
Oh god... not another one
That chart is for PREDICTED reliability of the 2009 models. That proves nothing except what one magazine THINKS may happen for one model year . You also have to keep in mind that many manufacturers have completely redesign models, or introduced new ones which, historically, may bring down the overall reliability of the whole nameplate in the short-term. It has nothing to do with what will happen, or how car makers (including the German manufacturers) have improved over the years....
That chart is for PREDICTED reliability of the 2009 models. That proves nothing except what one magazine THINKS may happen for one model year
. You also have to keep in mind that many manufacturers have completely redesign models, or introduced new ones which, historically, may bring down the overall reliability of the whole nameplate in the short-term. It has nothing to do with what will happen, or how car makers (including the German manufacturers) have improved over the years....However one common factor in any manufacturer is that they haves processes and procedures to guide the design and development of a new vehicle toward production. This entails making sure all the verification tests are performed, product lifecycle, supply chain audits/inpsections, initial production.
The supply chain audit/inspection is where the Acura/Honda 4/5AT fell down in the quality control department. Honda/Acura had a group of companies they worked with for transmission component manufcturing. Probably all have to get qualified. Even after some initial warning signs that besides the 2nd gear lube problem there were serious tolerance/hardening problems with almost all coming from one particular vedor. Without a doubt one of the worst quality control problems Honda/Acura experieneced (worst than the 1G Accord fender and head gasket problems).
Alot of variables in manufacturing but one consistent theme is the disapplends for a management system that ensures a repeatable process to produce a quality product. It often does not come quickly, it took Toyota decades to get TPS together and it's always evolving. It's often the reason why although models may change, but quality changes for the better take time.
Porsche's example of how they got from the bottom of the quality list to near/at the top is amazing. It can be done, but takes time, money, and in Porsche's case pride. Audi seems to be improving, it'll be a few years if their long term relaibility backs it up.
05-19-2009, 03:48 PM
#220
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, I agree it's predicted which can prove entirely wrong.
However one common factor in any manufacturer is that they haves processes and procedures to guide the design and development of a new vehicle toward production. This entails making sure all the verification tests are performed, product lifecycle, supply chain audits/inpsections, initial production.
The supply chain audit/inspection is where the Acura/Honda 4/5AT fell down in the quality control department. Honda/Acura had a group of companies they worked with for transmission component manufcturing. Probably all have to get qualified. Even after some initial warning signs that besides the 2nd gear lube problem there were serious tolerance/hardening problems with almost all coming from one particular vedor. Without a doubt one of the worst quality control problems Honda/Acura experieneced (worst than the 1G Accord fender and head gasket problems).
Alot of variables in manufacturing but one consistent theme is the disapplends for a management system that ensures a repeatable process to produce a quality product. It often does not come quickly, it took Toyota decades to get TPS together and it's always evolving. It's often the reason why although models may change, but quality changes for the better take time.
Porsche's example of how they got from the bottom of the quality list to near/at the top is amazing. It can be done, but takes time, money, and in Porsche's case pride. Audi seems to be improving, it'll be a few years if their long term relaibility backs it up.
However one common factor in any manufacturer is that they haves processes and procedures to guide the design and development of a new vehicle toward production. This entails making sure all the verification tests are performed, product lifecycle, supply chain audits/inpsections, initial production.
The supply chain audit/inspection is where the Acura/Honda 4/5AT fell down in the quality control department. Honda/Acura had a group of companies they worked with for transmission component manufcturing. Probably all have to get qualified. Even after some initial warning signs that besides the 2nd gear lube problem there were serious tolerance/hardening problems with almost all coming from one particular vedor. Without a doubt one of the worst quality control problems Honda/Acura experieneced (worst than the 1G Accord fender and head gasket problems).
Alot of variables in manufacturing but one consistent theme is the disapplends for a management system that ensures a repeatable process to produce a quality product. It often does not come quickly, it took Toyota decades to get TPS together and it's always evolving. It's often the reason why although models may change, but quality changes for the better take time.
Porsche's example of how they got from the bottom of the quality list to near/at the top is amazing. It can be done, but takes time, money, and in Porsche's case pride. Audi seems to be improving, it'll be a few years if their long term relaibility backs it up.
05-19-2009, 03:55 PM
#221
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
Our new resident Vulcan thinks in a very clear and logical manner. We should listen to him.
Of course, I think the only real word he knows is logic and its derivatives. He can't seemed to stop saying it over and over again, without actually following through on using it.
05-19-2009, 04:00 PM
#222
The sizzle in the Steak
You continuously reinterpret my words repeatedly so (to your dead horse symdrome) here it is again
I said
"I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon)."
Which means (and I'm going out on limb here I know).
1) I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there
2) but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon).
Does not imply
1) majority or 90% are unhappy (as you stated)
2) "As if there are only "some" happy owners of Audi vehicles"
So stick to what I actually wrote and not what you construe or misrepresent. Again I never stated anything about logic in ownership experience, you seem to like using logic.
In terms of the Acura/Honda infamous 4AT/5AT, it is both a quality and reliabilty problem. It's been well documented (LA Times did a excellent piece on years ago even going to the machine shops in Ohio where some of the faulty maching was done).
The 4AT/5AT has some design flaws but also more important was a external subcontractor to Honda that was doing the machining, heat treating, and finishing of some of the AT components. There were several sub-contractors doing the same components (redundacy for supply change managment).
The result of the one manufacturer providing poor components resulting in a huge amount of AT failures. Honda/Acura was also at fault for not providing thorough incoming inspection (tolerance issues and hardness checks).
However, notice one extremely important difference it involves one major reliability problem being the AT. It was a disaster for Honda/Acura but other systems in their vehicles have proven themselves to be very reliable.
The very limited group of Audi owners I know, have had a very diverse type of problems. Nothing in one particular area (say AT for Acura's that are highly troublesome across the spectrum).
This is also what I see in Consumer Reports, Acura 2G TL's have black dots mixed with alot of half-red and solid red dots. Go over to the Audi section and it's not the same case.
It's not like all class of problem but turbo oil seal, total AWD AT failures, intermittent CAN bus failure, plastic intake pipe disintergrates. That points to a more systematic arena of quality problems across the whole vehicle. Not something you solve in a year or two.
So if you'd like to debate with some real facts concerning Audi reliability/quality, great. If you have some menaingful dialog that shows they've moved toward a more Toyota Production System model or some other CPI improvment, nice.
But if you're going to misrepresent my statements you going to look stupid to me.
I said
"I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon)."
Which means (and I'm going out on limb here I know).
1) I'm sure they're some happy Audi owners out there
2) but on my street there are 18 houses last year, two Audi's on that street (A8 and A6 wagon).
Does not imply
1) majority or 90% are unhappy (as you stated)
2) "As if there are only "some" happy owners of Audi vehicles"
So stick to what I actually wrote and not what you construe or misrepresent. Again I never stated anything about logic in ownership experience, you seem to like using logic.
In terms of the Acura/Honda infamous 4AT/5AT, it is both a quality and reliabilty problem. It's been well documented (LA Times did a excellent piece on years ago even going to the machine shops in Ohio where some of the faulty maching was done).
The 4AT/5AT has some design flaws but also more important was a external subcontractor to Honda that was doing the machining, heat treating, and finishing of some of the AT components. There were several sub-contractors doing the same components (redundacy for supply change managment).
The result of the one manufacturer providing poor components resulting in a huge amount of AT failures. Honda/Acura was also at fault for not providing thorough incoming inspection (tolerance issues and hardness checks).
However, notice one extremely important difference it involves one major reliability problem being the AT. It was a disaster for Honda/Acura but other systems in their vehicles have proven themselves to be very reliable.
The very limited group of Audi owners I know, have had a very diverse type of problems. Nothing in one particular area (say AT for Acura's that are highly troublesome across the spectrum).
This is also what I see in Consumer Reports, Acura 2G TL's have black dots mixed with alot of half-red and solid red dots. Go over to the Audi section and it's not the same case.
It's not like all class of problem but turbo oil seal, total AWD AT failures, intermittent CAN bus failure, plastic intake pipe disintergrates. That points to a more systematic arena of quality problems across the whole vehicle. Not something you solve in a year or two.
So if you'd like to debate with some real facts concerning Audi reliability/quality, great. If you have some menaingful dialog that shows they've moved toward a more Toyota Production System model or some other CPI improvment, nice.
But if you're going to misrepresent my statements you going to look stupid to me.
The Honda/Acura 5 speed AT mess is one item that I brought up....must we bring up every problematic item for you to understand?
ok...
try Honda/Acuras horrible brakes...rotors warping at 8k miles? That's not quality.
How about the horrible Acura paint? Poor quality there.
How about the CL-S non functional butterfly valve issue?....
How about all the rattles that never go away?
....we can go on and on.
....but this exercise is pointless.
You are an Acura fan-boy.
The rest of us are auto-enthusiasts.
05-19-2009, 04:03 PM
#223
AZ Community Team
05-19-2009, 04:04 PM
#224
You keep proving my point with every passing second. For what reason did you ever buy an Acura in the first place, then? You are making yourself sound silly, fan-boyism or not. The fan based entusiasm exists to a degree with every purchase in every make and model for different reasons, it's really no different than simply weighing one purchase over another. You not planning to buy another Acura has nothing to do with the TL vs the A4, your opinion has nothing to do with it either. The TL gives you more functional return for your dollar and the A4 gives you more of a subjective return but charges more, no contest for my needs, winner TL.
05-19-2009, 04:11 PM
#225
Yes, everyone.
Our new resident Vulcan thinks in a very clear and logical manner. We should listen to him.
Of course, I think the only real word he knows is logic and its derivatives. He can't seemed to stop saying it over and over again, without actually following through on using it.
Our new resident Vulcan thinks in a very clear and logical manner. We should listen to him.
Of course, I think the only real word he knows is logic and its derivatives. He can't seemed to stop saying it over and over again, without actually following through on using it.
Yep, that about fits the descirption of what JD was talking about, thanks for the example.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 05-19-2009 at 04:13 PM.
05-19-2009, 04:25 PM
#226
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
Its like a kid who just opened the dictionary for the first time. You can't have a conversation with someone who only hears what they want to hear.
Fuck him, fuck you, too. Let that fit some descriptions
05-19-2009, 04:28 PM
#227
AZ Community Team
If you think all Audi owners are happy then that's truely assine, I said some are and that also applies to Honda's and Acura's too. You're pretty hard headed on the definition of "some", so
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some
nope I've always been a auto enthusiast, even though I have a few rattles in my 05 TL (brakes and paint are OK).
So if I follow your logic your just a Audi/VW fan-boy since you wrote "The VW car culture is like a cult....many customers for life."
Again sounds like you're the one who just doesn't understand or get it?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some
nope I've always been a auto enthusiast, even though I have a few rattles in my 05 TL (brakes and paint are OK). So if I follow your logic your just a Audi/VW fan-boy since you wrote "The VW car culture is like a cult....many customers for life."
Again sounds like you're the one who just doesn't understand or get it?
Again you can keep trying, but your quote assumes there are only some happy Audi owners...which is asinine.
The Honda/Acura 5 speed AT mess is one item that I brought up....must we bring up every problematic item for you to understand?
ok...
try Honda/Acuras horrible brakes...rotors warping at 8k miles? That's not quality.
How about the horrible Acura paint? Poor quality there.
How about the CL-S non functional butterfly valve issue?....
How about all the rattles that never go away?
....we can go on and on.
....but this exercise is pointless.
You are an Acura fan-boy.
The rest of us are auto-enthusiasts.
The Honda/Acura 5 speed AT mess is one item that I brought up....must we bring up every problematic item for you to understand?
ok...
try Honda/Acuras horrible brakes...rotors warping at 8k miles? That's not quality.
How about the horrible Acura paint? Poor quality there.
How about the CL-S non functional butterfly valve issue?....
How about all the rattles that never go away?
....we can go on and on.
....but this exercise is pointless.
You are an Acura fan-boy.
The rest of us are auto-enthusiasts.
05-19-2009, 04:28 PM
#228
Please explain the implication of these two comments:
These comments were in response to my assertion that the TL has been known to be more reliable than the A4 based on past data. If your implication was not that the A4 is expected to be more reliable, what was it? Please enlighten me, since I "do not possess basic reading comprehension."
These comments were in response to my assertion that the TL has been known to be more reliable than the A4 based on past data. If your implication was not that the A4 is expected to be more reliable, what was it? Please enlighten me, since I "do not possess basic reading comprehension."
OK, one more time slowly, in clear, plain english. Here is a basic timeline...- I initially responded to a comment Bitium made where he implied Audi had poor reliability, high maintenence costs, and high repair costs by stating my personal experience with Audi verses my personal experience with Acura.
- You then replied to me regarding reliability ratings regarding the TL and the A4. Not sure why that was relevent when I was speaking about my personal experiences and knowledge, but you felt it necessary.
- I replied back laughing at you for assuming that I was using "small samples sizes" when you have no idea what information I have access to. I gave you examples to show I was not using "small sample sizes" to form my opinion.
- You then replied asking for evidence that Audi as a brand was more reliable then Acura... something I never said as I had posted my opinions.
- I replied stating that you were making assumptions and putting words into my mouth, which is fact, as I never said any of the things you were questioning. I posted an opinion.
- You then replied saying I could not support my argument with verifiable evidence. Since when do I need verifiable evidence to support an opinion of mine?
- I replied to Sarlac, basically stating the above... that have an opinion and you want me to prove to you that my opinion is not wrong.
- You replied again looking for data proving Acura is more reliable then Audi. Again, something I never stated.
- I replied to you asking you to find a post where I stated that Audi was more reliable then Acura.
- You replied, quoting my opinions, again trying to put them against the fact that you believe Acura is more reliable then Audi. My replies to you were simply stating that I have formed my opinion using more data then just personal experiences as you had assumed. I also stated that for a small period of time, yes, A4 owners were experiencing a higher owner satisfaction then TL owners when a large number of TL owners were having tranny issues.
So yeah, you do not have basic reading comprehension. You are replying to me looking for data, links, and support for statements I never made. I simply posted opinions I have based on personal experience, and the experiences of others. I do not need to justify my opinions to anyone. If I was stating facts, then yes, it would help my argument to have backup... but I never stated facts, only my opinions. For some reason this is beyond your grasp and you are fabricating a debate/discussion with me off of things I never said, yet you keep insisting on pursuing it. Even when others chime in pointing this out, you don't get it.
And that's that... I'm done with this thread. If this doesn't clean things up for you, then there's nothing else I can say to get it through to you. I mean seriously... it's like watching a monkey fucking a football.
Now I know how the R&P people feel when having conversations with Caddy or Wackura 
...
05-19-2009, 04:29 PM
#229
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
You keep proving my point with every passing second. For what reason did you ever buy an Acura in the first place, then? You are making yourself sound silly, fan-boyism or not. The fan based entusiasm exists to a degree with every purchase in every make and model for different reasons, it's really no different than simply weighing one purchase over another. You not planning to buy another Acura has nothing to do with the TL vs the A4, your opinion has nothing to do with it either. The TL gives you more functional return for your dollar and the A4 gives you more of a subjective return but charges more, no contest for my needs, winner TL.
Some of us got rid of Acuras because of problems, some because we were bored. Some, like me, required different needs. Many, just wanted to try something new...because many of here are enthusiasts and dont like to be tied down to one brand.
Great, your 4g TL gives you more return for your buck, super.
The rest of us are saying waking to a new A4 in our driveway would bring a bigger smile to our face than waking up with the new 4g TL...which would be more reminiscent of waking up after a night a drinking and finding a 400lb post op tranny in your bed.
05-19-2009, 04:42 PM
#230
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
this thread is too serious.
05-19-2009, 05:11 PM
#231
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, one more time slowly, in clear, plain english. Here is a basic timeline...- I initially responded to a comment Bitium made where he implied Audi had poor reliability, high maintenence costs, and high repair costs by stating my personal experience with Audi verses my personal experience with Acura.
- You then replied to me regarding reliability ratings regarding the TL and the A4. Not sure why that was relevent when I was speaking about my personal experiences and knowledge, but you felt it necessary.
- I replied back laughing at you for assuming that I was using "small samples sizes" when you have no idea what information I have access to. I gave you examples to show I was not using "small sample sizes" to form my opinion.
- You then replied asking for evidence that Audi as a brand was more reliable then Acura... something I never said as I had posted my opinions.
- I replied stating that you were making assumptions and putting words into my mouth, which is fact, as I never said any of the things you were questioning. I posted an opinion.
- You then replied saying I could not support my argument with verifiable evidence. Since when do I need verifiable evidence to support an opinion of mine?
- I replied to Sarlac, basically stating the above... that have an opinion and you want me to prove to you that my opinion is not wrong.
- You replied again looking for data proving Acura is more reliable then Audi. Again, something I never stated.
- I replied to you asking you to find a post where I stated that Audi was more reliable then Acura.
- You replied, quoting my opinions, again trying to put them against the fact that you believe Acura is more reliable then Audi. My replies to you were simply stating that I have formed my opinion using more data then just personal experiences as you had assumed. I also stated that for a small period of time, yes, A4 owners were experiencing a higher owner satisfaction then TL owners when a large number of TL owners were having tranny issues.
So yeah, you do not have basic reading comprehension. You are replying to me looking for data, links, and support for statements I never made. I simply posted opinions I have based on personal experience, and the experiences of others. I do not need to justify my opinions to anyone. If I was stating facts, then yes, it would help my argument to have backup... but I never stated facts, only my opinions. For some reason this is beyond your grasp and you are fabricating a debate/discussion with me off of things I never said, yet you keep insisting on pursuing it. Even when others chime in pointing this out, you don't get it.
And that's that... I'm done with this thread. If this doesn't clean things up for you, then there's nothing else I can say to get it through to you. I mean seriously... it's like watching a monkey fucking a football.
Now I know how the R&P people feel when having conversations with Caddy or Wackura ...Anyway, it was my mistake to apply some level of scientific thought to this subject. As a holder of multiple degrees in quantitative fields, sometimes I make the mistake in assuming that others are capable of making cogent arguments and then supporting them with evidence. Based on this thread, I was horribly mistaken. Between your constant condescension and inability to have a civil debate centered around facts, and Sarlacc's inability to construct an argument that rises above the level of throwing together a few profanities without sounding like a complete dolt, I am disappointed with some of the people in this thread.
Last edited by JD23; 05-19-2009 at 05:13 PM.
05-19-2009, 05:16 PM
#232
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
In this context, I don't understand the purpose of your initial post, other than that you were bothered that someone dared to criticize Audi. Reliability is much different than aesthetics; it isn't a subjective matter and opinions have no significant merit. If I state that, in my opinion, it is impossible to get struck by lightning because neither me nor any of my acquaintances have been struck by lighting, is this a valid argument? I guess no one can contradict me because I never stated it was a fact.
Anyway, it was my mistake to apply some level of scientific thought to this subject. As a holder of multiple degrees in quantitative fields, sometimes I make the mistake in assuming that others are capable of making cogent arguments and then supporting them with evidence. Based on this thread, I was horribly mistaken. Between your constant condescension and inability to have a civil debate centered around facts, and Sarlacc's inability make an argument that rises above the level of throwing together a few profanities without sounding like a complete dolt, I am disappointed with some of the people in this thread.
Anyway, it was my mistake to apply some level of scientific thought to this subject. As a holder of multiple degrees in quantitative fields, sometimes I make the mistake in assuming that others are capable of making cogent arguments and then supporting them with evidence. Based on this thread, I was horribly mistaken. Between your constant condescension and inability to have a civil debate centered around facts, and Sarlacc's inability make an argument that rises above the level of throwing together a few profanities without sounding like a complete dolt, I am disappointed with some of the people in this thread.
All this has come to is that youre some insecure little bitch
Thank you, doctor, for schooling us in your educational achievements and anything in this discussion that relates in a scientific nature...Where are my lab rats I didnt realize we were experimenting here.
You are about as dense as a boat anchor. Of COURSE it's subjective. JBs ownership experience were positive and he has/had no issues. Where as someone else has had issues. Two different owners, two different experiences, two different opinions formed, one probable repeat buyer.
That sounds subjective to me...hell I even kinda wrote it out like a math equation for your scientific mind!
Last edited by Sarlacc; 05-19-2009 at 05:19 PM.
05-19-2009, 05:23 PM
#233
^ He still doesn't get it. It's OK... I'll live.... but I still can't help smiling reading his replies. Well that and 
To all:
Let's continue to keep this thread civil so it does not have to get locked. Lot's of new folks in this section who are not used to the Off Topic areas, so keep that in mind. I'm more or less done replying to the fanbois b/c I can't say the same thing too many different ways, but I will still be moderating.
So far it's been fine, but let's keep it up
He still doesn't get it. It's OK... I'll live.... but I still can't help smiling reading his replies. Well that and To all:
Let's continue to keep this thread civil so it does not have to get locked. Lot's of new folks in this section who are not used to the Off Topic areas, so keep that in mind. I'm more or less done replying to the fanbois b/c I can't say the same thing too many different ways, but I will still be moderating.
So far it's been fine, but let's keep it up
05-19-2009, 05:26 PM
#234
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
^ He still doesn't get it. It's OK... I'll live.... but I still can't help smiling reading his replies. Well that and
Hopefully after this thread dies the TL burros will head back to their section, safe from the outside world and opinions which may not coincide with their opinions...
To all... let's continue to keep this thread civil so it does not have to get locked. Lot's of new folks in this section who are not used to the Off Topic areas, so keep that in mind. So far it's been fine, but let's keep it up
He still doesn't get it. It's OK... I'll live.... but I still can't help smiling reading his replies. Well that and Hopefully after this thread dies the TL burros will head back to their section, safe from the outside world and opinions which may not coincide with their opinions...
To all... let's continue to keep this thread civil so it does not have to get locked. Lot's of new folks in this section who are not used to the Off Topic areas, so keep that in mind. So far it's been fine, but let's keep it up
It just kills me that some kid calls me out on being an 8 year old (duh, this me were talking about) but was looking for an excuse this whole time to try and brag about degrees he may or may not really have? Where does any of that have any relevance in this thread or discussion? It doesnt. Its someone who isnt comfortable with themselves going out of their way to try and hype themselves up.
guess what....fail.
05-19-2009, 05:29 PM
#235
The sizzle in the Steak
If you think all Audi owners are happy then that's truely assine, I said some are and that also applies to Honda's and Acura's too. You're pretty hard headed on the definition of "some", so
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some
nope I've always been a auto enthusiast, even though I have a few rattles in my 05 TL (brakes and paint are OK).
So if I follow your logic your just a Audi/VW fan-boy since you wrote "The VW car culture is like a cult....many customers for life."
Again sounds like you're the one who just doesn't understand or get it?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some
nope I've always been a auto enthusiast, even though I have a few rattles in my 05 TL (brakes and paint are OK). So if I follow your logic your just a Audi/VW fan-boy since you wrote "The VW car culture is like a cult....many customers for life."
Again sounds like you're the one who just doesn't understand or get it?
Context. Try reading posts that way...including your own.<---Not a fan-boy of VW/Audi......I may be guilty of being an Aston Martin and Ferrari fan-boy...but nothing more.
...and you saying you are not an Acura fan-boy made be
Do yourself a favor and find a post where I am shown as being a Audi/VW fan-boy. You won't find it...I bitch and moan and sing the praises of all cars from all mfgs.
Please do all of us here in Cartalk a favor and go back to the TL forum.
05-19-2009, 05:35 PM
#236
Pro
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 42
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this has come to is that youre some insecure little bitch
Thank you, doctor, for schooling us in your educational achievements and anything in this discussion that relates in a scientific nature...Where are my lab rats I didnt realize we were experimenting here.
You are about as dense as a boat anchor. Of COURSE it's subjective. JBs ownership experience were positive and he has/had no issues. Where as someone else has had issues. Two different owners, two different experiences, two different opinions formed, one probable repeat buyer.
That sounds subjective to me...hell I even kinda wrote it out like a math equation for your scientific mind!
.Yes, with a small sample size, individual samples will have widely varying outcomes and it is not unsurprising that a car considered, on average, to be unreliable, will be very reliable for some individuals. However, no statistically significant conclusions can be made about average reliability from small samples. It really doesn't prove anything when you tell me that your girlfriend's dad's orthodontist had an Audi that was more reliable than his Acura. Anyway, trying to explain statistics to you is obviously futile.
05-19-2009, 05:41 PM
#237
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,427
Received 5,086 Likes
on
2,699 Posts
And you have repeatedly demonstrated that you're a dimwit of the highest order .
Yes, with a small sample size, individual samples will have widely varying outcomes and it is not unsurprising that a car considered, on average, to be unreliable, will be very reliable for some individuals. However, no statistically significant conclusions can be made about average reliability from small samples. It really doesn't prove anything when you tell me that your girlfriend's dad's orthodontist had an Audi that was more reliable than his Acura. Anyway, trying to explain statistics to you is obviously futile.
.Yes, with a small sample size, individual samples will have widely varying outcomes and it is not unsurprising that a car considered, on average, to be unreliable, will be very reliable for some individuals. However, no statistically significant conclusions can be made about average reliability from small samples. It really doesn't prove anything when you tell me that your girlfriend's dad's orthodontist had an Audi that was more reliable than his Acura. Anyway, trying to explain statistics to you is obviously futile.
Cars are about owner experience. We here are sharing and disussing owner experience. If cars were about statistics than everyone would be driving a honda accord sedan with the small engine and most airbags.
05-19-2009, 05:59 PM
#238
This thread reminds me of the first time I put my hand on a hot stove. Ah, I had no idea what I was heading into. Like a bunch of scantily-clad drunken college chicks getting lost in the wrong neighborhood...
05-19-2009, 06:17 PM
#239
The sizzle in the Steak
