Inside Line: 2011 BMW 550i vs 2011 Infiniti M56S Comparison

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Old 12-28-2010, 02:14 AM
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Inside Line: 2011 BMW 550i vs 2011 Infiniti M56S Comparison

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/5-seri...ison-test.html

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BMW's Velvety New 550i Takes on Infiniti's Macho M56


When it comes to respectability in the midsize sport sedan segment, all roads lead through BMW's 5 Series. It's been ruling this class for decades now, and for good reason. It has the uncanny ability to satisfy both driving enthusiasts and buyers who are simply looking for a luxury sedan with German cachet.

Now that the all-new twin-turbo 2011 BMW 550i is here, it was time to see just how well it stacks up against its newest competitors. But instead of going toe-to-toe with a classic European rival, we figured a match-up with the latest from Japan would be more interesting. For that we turned to the all-new 2011 Infiniti M56, a thoroughly redesigned sedan that is once again aiming for the Germans. It has all the makings of a worthy competitor, but how does it hold up on the road?




How They Stack Up
Not surprisingly, the 2011 BMW 550i and 2011 Infiniti M56 have plenty of similarities. Both are rear-drive sedans powered by sizable V8s. In this case, both are hooked to automatic transmissions, a seven-speed in the Infiniti and an eight-speed in the BMW.

To make sure no one whines about "stacking the deck" in one car's favor, both the 550i and the M56 were outfitted with Sport packages. The Infiniti's $3,650 option adds a stiffer suspension with upgraded springs and shocks, larger brakes, Bridgestone Potenza RE050A summer performance tires on 20-inch alloy wheels, four-wheel active steer, paddle shifters, sport seats and a unique steering wheel and shift knob.

The BMW 550i had the benefit of both a Dynamic Handling package, which includes electronic damping control, active roll stabilization (active antiroll bars) and Adaptive Drive (allowing for specific chassis/drivetrain settings) for $2,700, as well as a $2,200 Sport package, which adds a sportier leather steering wheel, multicontour seats, special exterior trim, an increased top speed (limited to 150 mph) and — surprisingly — 19-inch Goodyear Excellence run-flat all-season tires.

Technology and luxury abound in these cars, the kind of niceties that make your drive safer (the BMW's standard adaptive cornering headlights) and more relaxing (Infiniti's standard heated and cooled front seats). Differences come in the form of which features each manufacturer supplies standard, and which ones they make you pay extra for — as an example, you can get those adaptive headlights on the Infiniti, but it'll cost $3,000 as part of the Technology package; conversely, neither heated nor cooled front seats come standard in the BMW — heated seats cost $500 (or could be part of a package), while seat cooling tacks on another $1,950-$2,950 depending on the package.

As you might have guessed, these are expensive sedans. The M56 starts at $58,765 with an as-tested price of $67,130, while the BMW is a few grand more. The 550i starts at $60,575 and our tester topped $70K with options.

What's the Motivation Here?
Turbocharged engines are quickly becoming the norm at BMW, and now the 550i is on board. Its direct-injected 4.4-liter twin-turbo V8 produces 400 horsepower at 5,500 rpm and 450 pound-feet of torque from 1,750-4,500 rpm. Yes, that's a massive torque curve, but it comes at the expense of the old V8's rumbling exhaust. Now there's little more than a muted growl, and you can't even hear the turbos working their magic.

The 2011 Infiniti M56 uses cubic inches and plenty of revs to achieve its power. Its 5.6-liter V8 is good for 420 hp at 6,000 rpm and 417 lb-ft of torque at 4,400. It's no dinosaur, also utilizing direct-injection and variable valve timing and valve lift for a smooth, reasonably efficient power plant.

A little more driver involvement is required to get the most out of the M56's V8, though, as its power is concentrated at higher engine speeds. The Infiniti sounds more like a sport sedan than the BMW, especially when it approaches the 6,700-rpm redline.

By the Numbers
At our test track, the M56 was slightly quicker to 60 mph than the 550i, 5.0 to 5.2 seconds, respectively (4.7 and 4.9 seconds with a 1-foot rollout, as on a drag strip). So the BMW is slower, despite the fact that it's capable of getting a near-perfect amount of wheelspin off the line thanks to power-braking, something the Infiniti's brake-override system won't allow.

So how come the BMW is slower? Might have something to do with the extra 287 pounds of ballast the 4,380-pound 550i carries versus the M56. Seriously, what's a 5 Series doing weighing nearly 4,400 pounds? This is "EfficientDynamics?"

Weight aside, by the time the 550i hits the quarter-mile, its twin-turbo V8 inches the BMW ahead by 0.1 second (13.2 vs. 13.3); it's also traveling a lot faster at this point — 108.3 mph against the Infiniti's 106.7.

A Shifty Pair
The BMW 550i comes standard with a six-speed manual transmission, but our test car was fitted with the no-cost-option eight-speed automatic. BMW says this new tranny's two additional ratios (over the old six-speed auto) come with no increase in size or weight.

It's a smooth operator in full automatic mode and easy to shift when you want to take control of the gears yourself. Not only does it shift in our preferred pattern (forward for downshifts, back for upshifts), it also blips the throttle when you grab a lower gear to match revs. It's not actually a true full manual mode, though, as a stomp on the gas will call up a multigear downshift. It doesn't hold gears either. If you hit the redline, you get the next cog whether you like it or not.

Infiniti offers just one transmission in the M56, a seven-speed automatic with four driver-controlled modes that affect transmission and throttle mappings. As with the BMW, leaving the center console shifter in "D" gives supremely smooth automatic shifting. But moving the center console lever toward the driver puts it in Manual mode, bringing the optional leather-covered, steering-column-mounted magnesium paddle shifters into play. The control is fully with the driver at this point, as the transmission will neither shift up nor down without consent from the paddle shifters. Downshift under braking and it rev matches, too.



These Are Sport Sedans, After All
With all of the BMW's high-techery, you'd think it would easily handle the Infiniti when the going gets twisty. Not so, especially in terms of instrumented testing. The M56 bested the 550i by 1.2 mph through the slalom (66.7 vs. 65.5 mph, respectively) while generating 0.89g around the skid pad against the BMW's so-so 0.84g.

The blame for the 550i's less-than-stellar performance doesn't lie purely with its all-season tires either, as they provided enough grip for it to stop almost as well as the M56 — just 1 foot longer from both 30 and 60 mph. The BMW's pedal felt stronger at the test track, but when pushing hard on back roads the Infiniti's optional ($370) high-friction brake pads felt more consistent.

More than anything, the 550i is simply too heavy and softly sprung for aggressive back-road driving. Even with the suspension at its stiffest setting, the 550i exhibited a surprising amount of understeer, while the 5's electric power steering feels artificial. You can still flog the 550i, but you won't feel completely in touch with the car.

The Infiniti isn't spot-on either. Its variable-assist steering, combined with the optional four-wheel active steering (the rear wheels are turned in phase with the front wheels, depending on vehicle speed and steering angle), makes for overly quick turn-in at low to medium speeds, alarmingly so at times.

But it's clear the driver seat of the Infiniti is the place to be when you pick up the pace on any kind of curvy road. The M56's steering becomes more and more natural as speeds increase, while the stiff suspension soaks up turns, if not bumps, with ease. The whole M56 experience, from its quick steering to its stiff suspension, is a bit on the frenetic side, but it's more engaging than the vague BMW.

There is one area where the BMW trumps the Infiniti on the fun scale — powerslides. Now, the average enthusiast may not find this very relevant, but in the right hands the BMW's electronic limited-slip rear differential does allows you to utilize the twin-turbo V8's prodigious low-end torque to induce some wicked corner exits. And that's all we'll say about that.

When You're Not Laying Rubber
Our enthusiasm for the Infiniti drops slightly the moment the road gets bumpy, or basically any time you're just driving from A to B. The M56's stiff, nonadjustable suspension makes the average commute tiresome and unnecessarily jumpy. The tire and road noise is also a bit much for a luxury sedan, too. Basically, this car reminds you that you bought the Sport package every time you drive it.

The BMW, on the other hand, is always plush and serene. The same sedan that can execute tire-smoking powerslides can also tame mangled city streets. We would still prefer more steering feedback, but the trade-off is slightly less sawing at the wheel during normal driving. It's still a sport sedan, but one you can live with.

No Cabin Fever Here
When you pay around $70,000 for a luxury sport sedan, you expect to be coddled, and neither car disappoints. Both are extremely comfortable places to spend time, the BMW's front seats getting the nod for their width and comfort, the Infiniti's for lateral support.

The M56's rear seat is more plush, while the BMW has more headroom. Fine leather and wood abound, as do such niceties as power rear window shades and excellent navigation systems, the BMW in particular boasting an impressive 10.2-inch transreflective screen that becomes easier to see in direct sunlight — the exact opposite of many systems.

In general the BMW's controls have better detents and are more ergonomic, while the Infiniti's are easier to decipher from the moment you sit in the car. And yes, iDrive Version 4 can still be a bit nonintuitive.

When it comes to interior design, though, the Infiniti has a more interesting take on luxury. The mix of materials in the M56 is more modern and stylish without looking overdone. The 550i has plenty of high-quality stuff; it's just on the sterile side.

And the Winner Is...
As athletic and well-mannered as the Infiniti is on back roads, the BMW 550i squeezed out a win by 2.2 points. Why?

The BMW 550i is simply a better all-around sedan. Infiniti may have figured out the sport sedan piece of the formula, but BMW is better at making a sport sedan that you can live with. We like a tightly wound sedan as much as the next enthusiast, but we don't want to be reminded of the car's capabilities every time we head to the office. It's a fine line for sure, but one the Infiniti still needs to work on.

With the 550i, you get the refined driving experience along with plenty of sport sedan capability. Should it weigh less? Yes. Would we prefer more precise steering? Yes again. The new 5 Series is by no means perfect, but it still puts all the pieces together in a way that makes it feel like a proper luxury sport sedan. The Infiniti is close, but the BMW is already there.
I'd love to have either one of these.

Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 12-28-2010 at 02:18 AM.
Old 12-28-2010, 02:27 AM
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Got to say, I think I'd rather have the M.
Old 12-28-2010, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rossv1
got to say, i think i'd rather have the m.
+ 1
Old 12-28-2010, 03:13 AM
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I really dont like the F10 5 series but not crazy about the M either. I would take a CTS-V or Audi S6
Old 12-28-2010, 09:25 AM
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My mom just got a 2011 535i and it's really nice. We tried the M from Infiniti, but it just didn't appeal to my mom, or me. I'm satisfied with the response, even though I still think the M is a good car.
Old 12-28-2010, 10:26 AM
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Not that I could afford either of these fine sports sedans but as with their predecessors, I'd rather have the M as well. But I would be a little concerned with Nissan's direction when it comes to harsh ride quality as I've read similar accounts regarding the GT-R as well.

...and it seems that Infiniti has been getting this MUCH since the original G debuted in 2002:

The Infiniti is close, but the BMW is already there.
Old 12-28-2010, 10:37 AM
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much rather have a Porsche Panamera
Old 12-28-2010, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by crazy acura

i'd love to have either one of these.
+1
Old 12-28-2010, 10:54 AM
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i already know who would win without even reading the article. 99% of all car magazines favor BMW; all they stress is the sportiness of the car, how it drives, how it handles, etc...and yet when the M clearly outperforms the 5 in almost every category, it still lose. typical bias writer!
Old 12-28-2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by F23A4
Not that I could afford either of these fine sports sedans but as with their predecessors, I'd rather have the M as well. But I would be a little concerned with Nissan's direction when it comes to harsh ride quality as I've read similar accounts regarding the GT-R as well.

...and it seems that Infiniti has been getting this MUCH since the original G debuted in 2002:
You cant really be concerned of an overall brand when one the model, the GTR is said to have a harsh ride...I mean look at what that car is...it was designed for the track.

That said, visually the M does nothing for me. And as nice as the new 5 series is (visually its what the E60 SHOULD have always been) bimmer is not the same bmw it was in the 80s and 90s. All the new electronics, nannies, etc etc have taken away that very distinct bmw feel that people who owned or have driven the E39 and prior gens know what i mean.

Not saying its a bad car by any stretch...but I think the playing field is leveled and there are more and in some cases better options at this point.
Old 12-28-2010, 12:07 PM
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^Not the same BMW on the inside. The outside looks like 1995 all over again.
EDiT: Not to mention the Papa bear, Mom(550), & Baby bear formula.

Last edited by Mr Marco; 12-28-2010 at 12:12 PM.
Old 12-28-2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote: "...what's a 5 Series doing weighing nearly 4,400 pounds?"
Answer: It is as large as a 7 Series was just a few short years ago.

The 1 Series IMO is the enthusiasts' Bimmer; that and the M3. If I were in the market for a 70K sedan my guess is I would probably not care if I can smoke the tires or beat a M56 S off the line. Hell, I probably would get excited just reaching 90 mph on the way to the airport.

Bravo to Infiniti for pursuing the Germans once again. I can't think of any other Japanese automaker that can compete with BMW like Infiniti does. Like it or not BMW is the de-facto standard of the luxury and performance combination BUT with the playing field being leveled with improved models from America, Asia and Germany luxury sport vehicles I'm sure the guys at BMW are not resting well at night.

This comparo is just more of the same and there will be more to come in the future. The REAL question is, who will dethrone the king? I don't mean just 1 or 2 models. I mean become the new standard.
Old 12-28-2010, 12:20 PM
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This comparo is just more of the same and there will be more to come in the future. The REAL question is, who will dethrone the king? I don't mean just 1 or 2 models. I mean become the new standard.
It is not like competitors haven't been trying for 25 years.

As long as Infiniti makes ugly designs that look like a spaceship; not a chance. BMW, Audi and Mercedes are in the top three overall, not Infiniti.
Old 12-28-2010, 12:45 PM
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I'd definitely take an M56 over the 550i. It just looks mean and that interior is frankly stunning. Not sure what IL is on about either. BMW classically wins these comparos by being the better "driver's car" but in this case the Infiniti was clearly the better drive. I guess subjective badge appeal really does trump actual, objective performance....
Old 12-28-2010, 12:49 PM
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I would gladly take a Mercedes E550 over the 550i, I love the new design on those cars.
Old 12-28-2010, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
It is not like competitors haven't been trying for 25 years.

As long as Infiniti makes ugly designs that look like a spaceship; not a chance. BMW, Audi and Mercedes are in the top three overall, not Infiniti.
I'd say Audi has given BMW a real run for it's money in the last ~20 years. I'd take an S8 over both the 550i and M56S all day. I didn't say Infiniti was in the "top three". I said, no other Japanese carmaker has done what Infiniti has in terms of going toe-to-toe with BMW. BTW the M (spaceship) looks better than the BMW 550 (land yatch).
Old 12-28-2010, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by silver3.5
i already know who would win without even reading the article. 99% of all car magazines favor BMW; all they stress is the sportiness of the car, how it drives, how it handles, etc...and yet when the M clearly outperforms the 5 in almost every category, it still lose. typical bias writer!
Yep...no matter what, BMW always ends up on top.....advertisement dollars play a major rule...
Old 12-28-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by knight rider
I'd say Audi has given BMW a real run for it's money in the last ~20 years. I'd take an S8 over both the 550i and M56S all day. I didn't say Infiniti was in the "top three". I said, no other Japanese carmaker has done what Infiniti has in terms of going toe-to-toe with BMW. BTW the M (spaceship) looks better than the BMW 550 (land yatch).
Except for the last sentence (the Infiniti is clearly the ugly one here), I agree about Audi. I would generally chose midsize and large Audi cars from them before BMWs, but not in compacts & SUV.
Old 12-28-2010, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
+1
Add me to that list as well.
Old 12-28-2010, 02:58 PM
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Every article says the new 5er went soft and calling it a baby 7 series. Hell its built off the same platform after all.

550i won by only 2 points and mainly because it was able to be sporty and comfortable at the same time. M56 doesnt have the perfect balance of accomplishing both but its close. Whats not to understand here.

Theres more to a car than just performance stats. People who shop between these cars dont want to lose too much ride comfort to gain performance. Thats what cars like the M5, CTSV, AMG, etc.. are for.

In the end it all depends what you want out of a car.

BMW used to win easily in the past, im glad to see the competition biting at their heels. Makes things very interesting.
Old 12-28-2010, 03:02 PM
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I would take CTS-V over these two..

These two models in this generation don't do anything for me.
Old 12-28-2010, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Acura
Whats not to understand here.


I thought the last part of the article was pretty clear.

And the Winner Is...
As athletic and well-mannered as the Infiniti is on back roads, the BMW 550i squeezed out a win by 2.2 points. Why?

The BMW 550i is simply a better all-around sedan. Infiniti may have figured out the sport sedan piece of the formula, but BMW is better at making a sport sedan that you can live with. We like a tightly wound sedan as much as the next enthusiast, but we don't want to be reminded of the car's capabilities every time we head to the office. It's a fine line for sure, but one the Infiniti still needs to work on.

With the 550i, you get the refined driving experience along with plenty of sport sedan capability. Should it weigh less? Yes. Would we prefer more precise steering? Yes again. The new 5 Series is by no means perfect, but it still puts all the pieces together in a way that makes it feel like a proper luxury sport sedan. The Infiniti is close, but the BMW is already there.
Old 12-28-2010, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Acura

550i won by only 2 points and mainly because it was able to be sporty and comfortable at the same time. M56 doesnt have the perfect balance of accomplishing both but its close. Whats not to understand here.
That is not the point.....the problem is that the terms of the comparison always shifts whenever a BMW is included in the comparos run by the major publications (especially C&D which admittedly by their own word "drank the BMW Kool-Aid")

The Bimmer cost much more and has less power?? Well it is more refined/balanced/whatever.

The Bimmer has more power but a stiffer ride?? Well it has more power...won...

The Bimmer has less technical sophistication than some competitor?? Well it is better executed...

The Bimmer cost more, has less performance, less stable ride at high speed and less comfort?? Well you know, the wipers and lights control knobs are better......

Sometimes it is beyond ridiculous....and at least C&D is honest enough to admit it.

Reliability is never taken in consideration in these comparison tests and price difference is just an afterthought.

When other brands interiors are sometimes "dull" the BMW is admirably "minimalist"

The M56S has an obviously more sporty ride than the 550i because of its.......Sport Package (a big Duuhhh!!!)...if they want a more comfortable ride just de-select the Sport Package option checkmark....it saves some money too you know....

Infiniti does not have an M5 fighter in its stable so it tries to offer a more stiffer sportier ride with that option....

The only publication I trust a bit more is Consumer Report....no advertisement dollars there as far as I know....

After reading these magazines you approach the BMW dealership thinking you are going to test a supercar...then you look inside..you sit on it...you drive it....and you think...WTH.....


I like when people drool over the "superior balance and composure of a Bimmer along twists ans turns"....

Just watch this video by Top Gear Australia where a Mitsu Evo X on a track shows a more powerful 135i who is the boss......look at how the Bimmer fishtail almost comically trying to keep the Evo pace....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvwBc...eature=related

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-28-2010 at 04:02 PM.
Old 12-28-2010, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v
That is not the point.....the problem is that the terms of the comparison always shifts whenever a BMW is included in the comparos run by the major publications (especially C&D which admittedly by their own word "drank the BMW Kool-Aid")

The Bimmer cost much more and has less power?? Well it is more refined/balanced/whatever.

The Bimmer has more power but a stiffer ride?? Well it has more power...won...

The Bimmer has less technical sophistication than some competitor?? Well it is better executed...

The Bimmer cost more, has less performance, less stable ride at high speed and less comfort?? Well you know, the wipers and lights control knobs are better......

Sometimes it is beyond ridiculous....and at least C&D is honest enough to admit it.

Reliability is never taken in consideration in these comparison tests and price difference is just an afterthought.

When other brands interiors are sometimes "dull" the BMW is admirably "minimalist"

The M56S has an obviously more sporty ride than the 550i because of its.......Sport Package (a big Duuhhh!!!)...if they want a more comfortable ride just de-select the Sport Package option checkmark....it saves some money too you know....

Infiniti does not have an M5 fighter in its stable so it tries to offer a more stiffer sportier ride with that option....

The only publication I trust a bit more is Consumer Report....no advertisement dollars there as far as I know....

After reading these magazines you approach the BMW dealership thinking you are going to test a supercar...then you look inside..you sit on it...you drive it....and you think...WTH.....


I like when people drool over the "superior balance and composure of a Bimmer along twists ans turns"....

Just watch this video by Top Gear Australia where a Mitsu Evo X on a track shows a more powerful 135i who is the boss......look at how the Bimmer fishtail almost comically trying to keep the Evo pace....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvwBc...eature=related

i couldn't have said it any better!

i've been an avid reader/subscriber to the 4 major car magazines (C/D, Motor Trend, Automobile, Road n Track) for the past 15 years and I can only remember 3-5 times when a BMW would place below 1st place. why? for the exact reasons saturno_V stated above. every writer will purposely find faults in the other cars so that the bimmer would win and this latest article is a classic example.
Old 12-28-2010, 04:45 PM
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The Bimmer cost more, has less performance, less stable ride at high speed and less comfort?? Well you know, the wipers and lights control knobs are better......
è

With all this nonsense demagogy, you just pass beside the point; the Bimmer just drives better and is more involving. It just delivers.

At least, they preserved this.
Old 12-28-2010, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by silver3.5
i couldn't have said it any better!

i've been an avid reader/subscriber to the 4 major car magazines (C/D, Motor Trend, Automobile, Road n Track) for the past 15 years and I can only remember 3-5 times when a BMW would place below 1st place. why? for the exact reasons saturno_V stated above. every writer will purposely find faults in the other cars so that the bimmer would win and this latest article is a classic example.
The Japs have built, on average, globally superior luxury/premium cars to the Germans (reliability, features, value proposition) for the last 15 years or so (many early attempts were duds). I personally did the switch about 10 years ago where that superiority finally hit in my buying segment. 15-20 years ago I would not have considered anything other than German automobiles (with few exceptions) and I was buying accordingly.

Thank God many among the buying public are still capable of thinking with their own heads and this shows in the sales stats where the 3 Jap brands combined outsells the 3 Germans in Northamerica.....end of the story....
Old 12-28-2010, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
è

With all this nonsense demagogy, you just pass beside the point; the Bimmer just drives better and is more involving. It just delivers.

At least, they preserved this.
Yep...pure demagogy...too bad it was not on my part but on the part of C&D that run that comical comparo few months ago making ridicule of themselves....read it for yourself...

Drive more and read a bit less glossy magazines....
Old 12-28-2010, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
è

the Bimmer just drives better and is more involving.
sure, the bimmer drives better and is more involving but is this the only criteria for a comparo? what about all the other stuff?....like price, material, equipment list, wipers, knobs, quality, nav, etc...etc....
Old 12-28-2010, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by silver3.5
the bimmer drives better ..
Not only that....define "drives better"....I did chew more 3 and 5 series that I care of remembering on twisty (often wet) roads with my 6 speed Maxima SE.....and some of them were close to becoming part of the corn field scenery trying....
Old 12-28-2010, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v
Yep...pure demagogy...too bad it was not on my part but on the part of C&D that run that comical comparo few months ago making ridicule of themselves....read it for yourself...

Drive more and read a bit less glossy magazines....
I followed your suggestion; I drive a BMW and consider giving up my C&D subscription in which they made ridicule of themselves.

Of course, they seem to change their mind discreetly.
Originally Posted by C&D 535i long term
Judging by the rapid accumulation of miles on our long-term 535i, we should complete the 40,000-mile test in about nine months. Most long-termers need a year, perhaps a little longer, to hit 40K; talk about bucking conventions.

Not only that....define "drives better"....I did chew more 3 and 5 series that I care of remembering on twisty (often wet) roads with my 6 speed Maxima SE...
So your Datsun is better than a BMW? Ok.. thanks for playing.
Old 12-28-2010, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
I followed your suggestion; I drive a BMW and consider giving up my C&D subscription in which they made ridicule of themselves.

Of course, they seem to change their mind discreetly.





So your Datsun is better than a BMW? Ok.. thanks for playing.

To each his own.....incidentally BMW are my favourite german cars and I would buy one if Acura, Lexus and Infiniti one day would decide to quit the automotive business...

They are definitely good cars....just a bit overrated in my opinion...
Old 12-28-2010, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor


So your Datsun is better than a BMW? Ok.. thanks for playing.
You see....I usually lose interest in an intelligent exchange when I read comments like that.....and by the way my "Datsun" is long gone........

Furthermore I did like more the styling of the old Datsun 240Z than the coupes that BMW was cranking out at that time in the '70s....

By the way....do you know when BMW will put something on the road capable of getting at least a bit close to a GT-R?? 3 years?? 5??

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-28-2010 at 05:16 PM.
Old 12-28-2010, 05:11 PM
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They are definitely good cars....just a bit overrated in my opinion...
I agree with you in a sense. Even a lot more overhyped than a bit overrated.
Old 12-28-2010, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
I agree with you in a sense. Even a lot more overhyped than a bit overrated.
Both...I cross shopped the 335i and the 535i when I got my TL SH-AWD...IMHO the value proposition was just not there....
Old 12-28-2010, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor

So your Datsun is better than a BMW? Ok.. thanks for playing.
i swear...this is the exact mindset that most auto writers seem to have.....my emblem is better looking and more expensive than yours...so my wins regardless!
Old 12-28-2010, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by silver3.5
i swear...this is the exact mindset that most auto writers seem to have.....my emblem is better looking and more expensive than yours...so my wins regardless!
And what is wrong with Datsun anyway?? The Z were great sports car (at some point they were selling more of them in Nordamerica than the 911 with not a lot of difference in price) and the C series (240, 260, 280) were very good luxury sedans almost unknown in Nordamerica.
Old 12-28-2010, 05:34 PM
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By the way....do you know when BMW will put something on the road capable of getting at least a bit close to a GT-R?? 3 years?? 5??
They don't need to. To the contrary of Datsun, they chose to implement that 'go and get it attitude' in the DNA of all their vehicles (more $ of course) and absolute speed is not a requirement; *driving enjoyment is* and again, they deliver even if you have to pay more to play. Result after 25 years; they are still the world's best selling luxury brand, despite Lexus, Infiniti and Acura.

Last edited by Saintor; 12-28-2010 at 05:37 PM.
Old 12-28-2010, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
They don't need to. To the contrary of Datsun, they chose to implement that 'go and get it attitude' in the DNA of all their vehicles (more $ of course) and absolute speed is not a requirement; *driving enjoyment is* and again, they deliver even if you have to pay more to play. Result after 25 years; they are still the world's best selling luxury brand, despite Lexus, Infiniti and Acura.
They sell better worldwide (so far) because....they sell worldwide compared to the Jap premium brands (except Lexus).

BMW sells lots of 4 cylinder stripped down 3 and 5 series in Europe as company fleet cars.....they make 3 Series with as little as a 1.6 liter engines....most of their sales over there are diesel models where the Japs basically do not compete (they never believed in diesel engines for cars)

What concerns me is how they are going to compete as well in the future.....Mercedes is part of a gigantic industrial conglomerate, Audi and Porsche are part of VW one of the largest car manufacturer in the world, Acura is Honda (another giant with interests well beyond automobiles), Infiniti is Nissan-Renault and Lexus is Toyota...they have very "large shoulders" that can heavily invest in R&D to remain extremely competitive...BMW is globally a relatively small automaker and sells only luxury/premium cars (The MINI brand is an attempt to widen their client base).

In order to get better and better you need ever-increasing R&D expenditures....the problem is having a larger audience to spread the costs....

Toyota, VW, Nissan, Honda sells cars in the several millions....BMW is just an automotive company and sells barely above the 1M mark....

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-28-2010 at 05:55 PM.
Old 12-28-2010, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by saturno_v
They sell better worldwide (so far) because....they sell worldwide compared to the Jap premium brands (except Lexus).
It is more than this. Even in markets such as USA where Acura, Lexus, Infiniti should have taken over BMW and others, they failed to do. For 25 years.
Old 12-28-2010, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor
It is more than this. Even in markets such as USA where Acura, Lexus, Infiniti should have taken over BMW and others, they failed to do. For 25 years.
I think you need more reading...Lexus is the largest luxury brand in US...it has been like that for years and years....

BMW barely outsells MB (2.3% market share vs. 2.2%) and significantly outsells Audi (1.1%), Infiniti (1.1% as well) and a bit less Acura (1.4%)

Acura outsells Audi.

And keep in mind that the Jap brands product line is smaller than the Germans...they do not have super coupes, very large super luxurious sedans and on average smaller engine choices....that is particular impressive for Acura vs. Audi where the first still outsells for second with a much maligned styling poor styling, no serious A8 competitor, no A5 fighter, no high-end Q7 compatitor as well and an overall smaller engine footprint.

November BMW sales topped all other luxury brands but they are trying very hard to give basically away the old 3 series with extremely generous incentives and service packages.

Last edited by saturno_v; 12-28-2010 at 06:32 PM.


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