mcflyguy24

Here's my story/confession. I've got about 6k in debt that I want to pay off and I also want a new car, something sportier. I can sell my TL for about 7k and then finance something else. I am looking at used Subie WRX Sti's, VW golf GTi's, ect. Basically I want something a lot sportier, but everything I want is MT. I get how a manual trans works and understand what to do in order to operate one, but am not sure how good at it I am. I can ride dirtbikes, ect, so I def grasp the whole clutch concept. Does anyone think it is possible to go and buy a new car with MT and just drive away with it without really practicing much?

Also, I have driven stick once when my friend got pulled over on a suspended license and the cop said I had to drive or he'd tow the car. I stalled only once turning into a mall and people where honking at me like crazy. Shit was kinda embarrassing. Theres a sick 300whp STi for sale over in Jersey that I am seriously considering. I want AWD with all this damn snow around here.

SouthernBoy

Yes it is, but you should have someone with you who knows how to operate a manual transmission. You say you believe you have a handle on how manual transmissions and clutches work. If you really do they you should already know all the minutiae about operating a manual. If not... learn. You do NOT want to develop bad habits from the get go as they will cost you in the long run in both dollars and failed components.

TL_Captain

from what you wrote, I'm sure you'll have no problem. All you need is few hours of practice.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

This is what I tell people when they ask about driving stick: "If you have rythm, you'll learn how to drive stick quicker." It's all about the modulation of the clutch and accelerator.

BTW, to become a man, one needs to know how to drive stick.

spence341

If you understand the concept, all it takes is a little practice. All MT vehicles behave differently. You can drive 3 WRX's and all 3 clutches may grab differently. If you are that concerned, I would rent a car with a MT and play with it for a day.

Will Y.

It sounds like you have the basic idea down.
I'd suggest borrowing a stick shift vehicle or testing a dealer's used car -- preferably something with gradual clutch engagement-- for an hour to practice before picking up the new car.

I really learned to drive a stick in a couple of hours on a Toyota pickup used to make an urgent delivery during a summer shipping dock job in 1982. Didn't drive a stick after that until I bought an Integra in 1987 and drove it out of the dealership.
Parallel parking the Toyota on Nob Hill in San Francisco was more intimidating in concept than actuality.

mcflyguy24

Damn I guess I fail in my manhood. I think I'm going to take my brother who drives nothing but stick along with me when I go to look at cars just in case.

kingkong222

do you know 'heel to toe'? if you do then you're all set. If not, then start learning.

wonton

My theory is if you can't drive home, then you shouldnt be driving a stick. i recommend getting the car when it's closing time so that theres less traffic on the road. that's what i did and it worked out fine....stalled 2-3 times but that's normal if you never drove a stick.

SouthernBoy

Here are some excerpts from some writings I've done over the years. Hope these get you started in the right direction. If you have questions, please feel free to ask.

And remember. Just because someone has been driving a manual transmission for years does not mean they know how to do it correctly. Don't absorb bad habits.


================================================== ========

What follows is a collection of writings which I have posted at various times on this website in an effort to help answer some questions regarding the proper manner in which a manual transmission should be operated. While there are certainly many ways to drive a car with a manual transmission, there is really only one correct way. I was most fortunate to have learned these techniques while I was still in my teenage years. In so doing, I was able to avoid developing entrenched habits before they became really bad habits and difficult to correct. It is my hope that this helps you learn what I have learned and perfected over the years. If you do, you will reap the rewards, both financial and in the knowledge that you have mastered a technique that few do in their lifetimes. Have fun!

Under normal driving situations (not racing), when you start out from a standing start, you do so with the lowest possible RPMs, get the clutch out to full engagement as soon as you can while adding throttle. If you do this correctly, the transition will be smooth and seamless, and the wear on your clutch disk, pressure plate, release bearing, and flywheel will be minimized.

If properly designed (sufficient size and clamping pressure, etc.), and properly installed with no defects (correct torque, non-faulty equipment, alignment, etc.), then the next, and most important, factor to the life of the clutch assembly is the operator.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY A CLUTCH CANNOT LAST THE LIFE OF THE ENGINE UNDER NORMAL DRIVING CONDITIONS.

When I speak of engine life here, I am referring to life before a serious teardown or part replacement such as a timing chain (200,000+ miles) or headwork. If you cannot get at least 100,000 miles out of a clutch, you are doing something terribly wrong. Obviously, racing and other extreme conditions such as towing constitute a whole different approach and, as such, do not come under this.


Don'ts:

Do not use any more engine speed (RPMs) than absolutely necessary to get the car rolling in first gear.

Do not hold the car on a hill with the clutch.

Do not wait for a traffic light to turn green with the transmission in gear and the clutch depressed.

Do not rest your foot on the clutch while driving.


Do not ride the clutch in any gear (obviously you will to a small degree in first to start off).

Do not down shift by just removing your foot from the gas, moving the shifter into a lower gear, then releasing the clutch slowly.


Do's

Start off smoothly and with low engine speed, and shift in such a manner that if you had a passenger on board, they would not even notice the shifts.

Hold the car on hills with the brakes.. that's what brakes are for. NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch. The amount of heat generated by doing this is incredible.

While waiting for a light to change or while sitting in heavy traffic, put the transmission in neutral and get your foot completely off of the clutch petal. Leaving it in gear for extended periods heats up and shortens the life of the release bearing. The normal condition of a clutch is fully engaged so it stands to reason that's where it should be most of the time.

Resting your foot on the clutch petal while driving engages the release bearing.. see above.

Avoid riding the clutch as much as is humanly possible. You will extend its life significantly.

If you do not know how to properly downshift, DON’T. Use the brakes (should do this anyway), and avoid downshifting any more than necessary. Improper downshifting is analogous to riding the clutch because that is what you are actually doing. Learn how to properly downshift first and save yourself the frustration of premature clutch failure.

Clutches are wear items, heavily affected by heat caused by friction. In a front wheel drive car, they are costly to replace, so unless you like shelling out a lot of money periodically for the replacement of these components, learn the correct way. Learn it until it becomes second nature like breathing.

Downshifting

Ah yes, downshifting. If I had to name just one facet of manual transmission errors-of-operation, this would probably be it.

To understand how to operate a manual transmission, you have to know how the clutch assembly and transmission work, and I am going to take the assumption that most do on this forum. I will only clarify synchronizers. They serve to match the speed of the gears in the transmission as the shifter is moved to a given gear. Now for downshifting.

Let's say you are in fourth gear and you are approaching a stop sign, so you decide to downshift from fourth gear into third. What most people do is just remove their foot from the throttle, depress the clutch while moving the shifter from fourth to third, then start releasing the clutch slowly until they achieve full engagement. If you do this, what you are actually doing is riding the clutch in third gear. After all, the engine has returned to idle (or close to it), you get into third, then just ease the clutch out which pulls the engine from idle up to the RPM's at which it will operate at whatever speed you are traveling in third gear. Here is the correct way to do this in steps that I will break down in a moment.

Raise your foot off of the throttle.

Depress the clutch.

Start the shifter up into third.

As you pass through the neutral gate, let the clutch out a bit (doesn't have to be all the way) while at the same time blipping the throttle to increase engine speed BEYOND that which it will operate in the chosen lower gear.

Depress the clutch again.

Engage the chosen lower gear.

Let the clutch out while adding throttle.

As the engine RPM's decrease they will be met by the engaging clutch and opening throttle.

This should be a simple, smooth, fluid motion and you will know you've done it right if there is no jerking as the clutch comes out in the last step. Now for some details.

As you move into the neutral gate with your foot off of the throttle, the engine RPM's will be returning to idle. This is the point at which you want to blip the throttle a bit while at the same time engaging the clutch some. You want to get the engine turning faster than it will when you are in the lower gear you have chosen. The reason is that you want to spin the gears up to a speed that equals that at which they will be operating when you finally release the clutch in your downshift. If you do this right, there is no clutch slippage because the engine and the gears in the transmission will be spinning at the same or nearly the same RPM's. No slippage means you will get into gear with full engagement of the clutch sooner and with virtually no wear. To best understand this, you really need to know how a clutch assembly and transmission work together to deliver power from the engine to the drive wheels.

This takes a lot of practice, but if you get it down, you will be heads and shoulders above just about anyone else who drives a car with a manual transmission. You will begin to notice the mistakes other are making when they drive. Learn from their mistakes and it will both save you money and make you a far better driver.

So it's in with the clutch, start the shifter into the chosen lower gear, while passing through the neutral gate, blip the throttle and at the same time engage the clutch a bit to spin up the gears, then back in with the clutch as you get into the chosen gear, then finally release the clutch in one smooth operation.

Here's another little tip. Say you are waiting at a light for the green and your transmission is in neutral like it should be with your foot completely off of the clutch petal. When the light turns green, instead of just depressing the clutch and pushing the shifter up into first, pull the shifter partially into a higher gear first, such as second or third. The gears in those selections are not spinning as fast as the gears in first. By starting the shifter into a higher gear before you go to into first gear, you will cause less wear on the synchronizers and they will last far longer because they do not have to stop gears which are spinning at a higher speed. For cars which do not have synchronized reverse, definitely do this and you will not experience the grinding affect when shifting into reverse.

Say you are driving normally, shifting up through the gears to the one in which you wish to be for cruising. As you disengage the clutch and move the shifter to the next higher gear, you might notice a slight resistance just before you finish the shift. What you feel is the synchronizer for that gear forcing the drive gear(s) from the input shaft and the gears selected to "mesh". That is to say, their speeds are forced to equalize so that as they engage, there is no grinding and no damage to the gear teeth. That said, we can move to double clutching.

Instead of going right into first as the light starts to go green, try starting the shifter into second gear.. don't have to go all the way into gear, though it won't hurt. This slows the gears down just as though you had gone on into first, but it's much easier on the synchronizers. And you won't get the "crunch" you mentioned when you have to move quickly.


To prevent rollback; practice, practice, practice, practice.

One way to do this is to find a nice little hill someplace where you won't be a bother to anyone. Take along some masking tape and mark off two sections with the tape a foot apart. Your goal is to keep the car from coasting back more than 1 foot.. of course you do not use the clutch to hold the car.. use the brakes. As you learn to do this, find another hill a little steeper. And so on, and so on.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I've been driving a manual car for about 4 months... but i don't know how to heel and toe.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

^
That's ok. Heel-toeing isn't a necessary skill.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Heel-toe shifting isn't necessary for standard driving. Sure it can be handy on street driving, but definitely not a method to strive for when just starting out.

If you track your car, i'd say it's necessary skill, otherwise, not a requirement at all for street driving.

mrmako

Um, OP, you're 6K in debt and want to sell your TL? Is it paid for? If it is, then I would keep it and wait a year. Why go onto more debt? I understand you can sell it, but better to be debt free then go purchase. Just my

And you can use the time by borrowing your brother's ride and practice on an MT. Or rent a car here and there....

calgary2800

I would say 3-4 hours and you should be Ok.

ThermonMermon

a couple afternoons if you live in a flat area.

ive never owned a stick car, but its not too difficult. although, when i was 17 i stalled a NSX in front of a client, and ive been nervous driving anyone elses stick car since.

couple things:
1. you have debt, is buying a less reliable used car worth it?
2. insurance PMTs?
3. if you live in a hilly area, you are taking on more risk in bumping into other cars - a risk you may not want with debt.

subinf

It isn't very difficult. Don't get frustrated. If you are comfortable in the car it can take an afternoon before you get the basics, and then another day or so to really hammer down smooth shifts.

Not freaking out on a steep ass hill in SF takes another few days.

mcflyguy24

The TL is paid for (it was a gift from my grandparents for turning a lot of shit in my life around), but I have 6k in other debt. I've been paying it down for awhile now. I'm just kinda getting bored with the TL. I'm looking for a car less than 10k so it would basically be about what my current credit card payments are if financed over 5yrs (I'm paying off my cards more aggressively than I'd have to with a car loan). I know I made the mistake when I was younger of living beyond my means and am paying for it now. Maybe I should wait a bit though since the TL has been pretty reliable and I could hopefully pay of my debt faster than my car depreciates. The thing is I have never owned a true sports car, and really would like something faster with better handling.

Btw, to anyone reading this I haven't took on any new debt since 07. I have learned my lesson the hard way with that. The only thing I financed was my computer since I could pay it off in two months.

mcflyguy24

I would hate to try and learn out in SF. My uncle used to live there and that's where he learned though. Those hills are insane.

spurfan15

Ya some of them are. Particularly in the nob hill area. The main thing to remember on such steep hills is the e-brake is an important tool in the MT toolbox. I generally use it on steep hills when parking or at stop lights. I pull it up just enough to prevent the car from rolling back. That way I can perform the clutch / accelerator action and release the e-brake at the exact moment when the car wants to move forward.

The other important thing for safety reasons is when parking on a hill you should use both e-brake AND stay in gear with wheels angled according to up/downhill. Basically park in the spot and keep the clutch pressed, engage the e-brake, make sure it's holding the car, keep the clutch pressed and turn the car off in gear. Use 1st gear if you're going to roll backward, and use reverse if you're going to roll forward. I generally use 1st if I'm parking on a flat surface. I highly recommend this for your car's safety when parked. You do not want it rolling away! Just be sure when you get back in the car and start it up, you press in the clutch, and go back into neutral if you want to let off the clutch -- otherwise you'll stall.

subinf

I'm pretty happy I didn't learn in SF but it wasn't much better when I first went in to see friends. I was never really a fan of the e-brake thing but sometimes you have to...whether it be because the hill is insanely steep or because some jackass is right on your bumper.

mitch14

you're planning on financing an sti for 10k?
where the heck can you find any sti for 10k?
wrx's for 10k are still kinda hard to find
...but with the whole manual situation, why can't you learn on your brother's car, since he only drives manuals?

v6cord2k5

iTrader: (1)

I learned when I was 14, you shouldn't have a problem at 27.

is300eater

I didn't read all the posts... but doesn't it matter on the car? Some cars are harder to learn than others

synth19

learn on a honda. Easiest tranny ever.

v6cord2k5

iTrader: (1)

I learned on a '87 Toyota pick-up, easiest truck I ever drove.

mdkxtreme

Gas first then let go of the clutch slowly. That's how I learned it in less than 30 minutes.

mdkxtreme

*Crap sorry for the double post

Costco

pretty much any economy car/truck is really easy to learn on. Also the clutch is very forgiving on older VWs, Hondas, BMWs, and the like.

There's a flip side.... cars with high torque or more low-end torque are much harder to stall, and easier to get a smooth launch out of. But they'll probably scare the crap out of you if you're not used to it and you slip the clutch too much. When I first got my car I did some brief, accidental burnouts

Focus on the clutch the most... modulating the gas should come naturally sooner than later. Initially you'll get the stiff left foot and just jab the clutch pedal in and out.... just get in enough practice and have experienced stick drivers comment on your driving.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Nah, it's not hard. I learned it as a Lot boy at a car dealership....lol...

Rick_TL-S

Just from personal experience, do not buy a MT car until you've practiced on one enough to decide whether or not you can live with it in all conditions.

I have a leased Si and had never driven a MT before when I got it. Practicing with it, I did grasp it & can drive it to and from places. However, the area I live in is terrible, so I soon regretted the car b/c I had to drive it in stop-and-go traffic rarely getting to enjoy the car. When I got the TL, I soon much more enjoyed driving in this area.

Now, the car itself is fine, I do like driving it every so often in the country to enjoy the 6-speed. But, if I could, I would let it go back in a heartbeat merely because I hate driving a MT through the city.

Short story, MT cars aren't hard to drive, but it's best imo to think hard about the kind of driving you'll be doing in it. It can make driving a chore, or it can be fun.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

You'll do just fine. Plenty of good info in this thread that will help you out

dallison

rondog

iTrader: (1)

Just start driving, you're brain will do all the work in correcting mistakes. it's not something you can deliberately learn by telling yourself to do this and that. Practice is key, and you can most likely learn how to drive home with one 15 minute previous lesson from a buddy and his car. I envy you if you don't know how to drive, because the learning process is the best part. Wish I could forget how to drive it and relearn! Good luck!

phee

iTrader: (5)

dont think too hard and dont be afraid to pop the clutch a couple of times.

once you get comfortable with your launching the shifting comes easy. smooth and steady.

dont overthink the shifts or u will be too slow and they will always be jerky. make it quick but not blaringly retarded fast.

shifts during normal driving should take no more than 1-2 seconds. work on getting them smooth and quick. not just smooth

phee

iTrader: (5)

i learned in a week. on my own. no help. swapped an MT into my car and i didnt even know how to drive one

SG81

iTrader: (1)

it's very easy. all it takes is a bit a practice

jspagna1

Practice,practice,practice.....is all I can say. You will get the hang of it in no time. I learned when I was 15 on my fathers 1967 Falcon with a 3 speed on the column.
I haven't owned a stick in like 30 years,but I can get into any MT car a drive it with no problem. It's like riding a bike, you never forget!!

sanjbaby

I learned on my own by driving my 2001 Audi A4 2.8Q 5spd from dealer in Wallingford, CT to Rockland County, NY. It was 2 hours of highway driving with some stop and go traffic. The local roads in my town had a lot of hills, so I got a little taste of everything on the first day of driving. I would randomly drive thru my local roads to get more comfortable.

The Audi wasn't the easiest car to learn on but it wasn't too bad. I traded that car in for a 2003 Acura CL S 6spd a couple of years later. The two cars were totally different experiences driving MT. I think the Acura would have been easier to start off with. I enjoyed driving the CL more because I was alot more comfortable driving MT by that point.

It would have been a great help to have the info Southernboy posted when I started learning!

Good luck on your search for a car and getting out of debt as well.

CL6

You have to shave with a knife, too. The duller it is the more manly you are.