Honda-Acura vs Nissan-Infiniti
08-16-2001, 03:46 PM
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Honda-Acura vs Nissan-Infiniti
I sat here and read all of this about how Nissan and cant hold it in any longer. First off just cause a Maxima manual can beat a CL-S by very little doesn't mean that it can handle better. The CL-S has VSA, Nissan can't even spell VSA. Second when can a V6 do 340 HP unless Nissan takes the cheap way out and add their so caller supercharger thing to the car. CL's and Type S are way more luxury with all that it has like the navi and the climate control. And last you would be proud that your manual Maxima can beat an automatic car. Just wait’ from what I have read' the 6 speed manual will be out in 2003 on the CL-S and on the soon to be released 2003 TL-S. Then the 2002 or 2003 Honda Accord with the 240 HP and 5-speed manual. So Nissan might think there winning but Honda is right behind them. Even without being a little faster than Nissan, Honda and Acura sells way more cars that win more awards from higher class magazines than Nissan will ever have. And when has Infiniti ever one any awards in the last 5 years from any magazine other than the mags that only talk about Nissans. All of this is fact and not just hype, so there isn't much you could say to save Nissans ass. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes.
08-16-2001, 03:48 PM
#2
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Who cares if the Maxima is a faster, because it is still Nissan.
We are driving luxury / performance coupes that compete with BMW 330ci, CLK 320, Volvo C70, etc... (Remember that we should not go down to their level.
)
The Maxima is a mid-size sedan that competes with Camry, Accord, Taurus, etc... (In other words, it's a poormans I30.
)
Hell a $22,000 2002 Mustang GT will beat a $28,000 2002 Maxima SE. What does that prove???
If you want to compare apples to apples then compare an I30 with the CL-S and see who wins.
Go find 10 people and ask them which car looks better. 9 out of 10 will say the CL. Except for the engine the Maxima is worthless.
We are driving luxury / performance coupes that compete with BMW 330ci, CLK 320, Volvo C70, etc... (Remember that we should not go down to their level.
)The Maxima is a mid-size sedan that competes with Camry, Accord, Taurus, etc... (In other words, it's a poormans I30.
)Hell a $22,000 2002 Mustang GT will beat a $28,000 2002 Maxima SE. What does that prove???
If you want to compare apples to apples then compare an I30 with the CL-S and see who wins.
Go find 10 people and ask them which car looks better. 9 out of 10 will say the CL. Except for the engine the Maxima is worthless.
08-16-2001, 03:51 PM
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don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.
08-16-2001, 03:55 PM
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You guys realize that both the Maxima and the I30 has "real leather" on the entire seat. Who cares that the Maxima is faster or the CLS is faster than the I30. All good cars, and all great for what they were built to be. And don't kid yoursef here stating that "it's just a Nissan", what the hell do you think you're driving? A Honda with an Acura coat over it.
08-16-2001, 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Scooter:
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by 2002 3.2 CL:
<STRONG>I sat here and read all of this about how Nissan and cant hold it in any longer. First off just cause a Maxima manual can beat a CL-S by very little doesn't mean that it can handle better. The CL-S has VSA, Nissan can't even spell VSA. Second when can a V6 do 340 HP unless Nissan takes the cheap way out and add their so caller supercharger thing to the car. CL's and Type S are way more luxury with all that it has like the navi and the climate control. And last you would be proud that your manual Maxima can beat an automatic car. Just wait’ from what I have read' the 6 speed manual will be out in 2003 on the CL-S and on the soon to be released 2003 TL-S. Then the 2002 or 2003 Honda Accord with the 240 HP and 5-speed manual. So Nissan might think there winning but Honda is right behind them. Even without being a little faster than Nissan, Honda and Acura sells way more cars that win more awards from higher class magazines than Nissan will ever have. And when has Infiniti ever one any awards in the last 5 years from any magazine other than the mags that only talk about Nissans. All of this is fact and not just hype, so there isn't much you could say to save Nissans ass. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes.</STRONG>
<STRONG>I sat here and read all of this about how Nissan and cant hold it in any longer. First off just cause a Maxima manual can beat a CL-S by very little doesn't mean that it can handle better. The CL-S has VSA, Nissan can't even spell VSA. Second when can a V6 do 340 HP unless Nissan takes the cheap way out and add their so caller supercharger thing to the car. CL's and Type S are way more luxury with all that it has like the navi and the climate control. And last you would be proud that your manual Maxima can beat an automatic car. Just wait’ from what I have read' the 6 speed manual will be out in 2003 on the CL-S and on the soon to be released 2003 TL-S. Then the 2002 or 2003 Honda Accord with the 240 HP and 5-speed manual. So Nissan might think there winning but Honda is right behind them. Even without being a little faster than Nissan, Honda and Acura sells way more cars that win more awards from higher class magazines than Nissan will ever have. And when has Infiniti ever one any awards in the last 5 years from any magazine other than the mags that only talk about Nissans. All of this is fact and not just hype, so there isn't much you could say to save Nissans ass. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes.</STRONG>
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08-16-2001, 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Scooter:
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
honda had a 4wheel steering prelude too.
i actually hope nissan does well, because i'm pretty sure i'm not buying another acura again. they STILL have a lot of catching up to do, whether nissan fans think so or not. but i think they're shooting themselves in the foot when they introduce models so early before the car's actually released...giving the competition time to plan a strategy.
08-16-2001, 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by AC:
<STRONG> And don't kid yoursef here stating that "it's just a Nissan", what the hell do you think you're driving? A Honda with an Acura coat over it.</STRONG>
<STRONG> And don't kid yoursef here stating that "it's just a Nissan", what the hell do you think you're driving? A Honda with an Acura coat over it.</STRONG>
I would rather have a Passat with an A4 coat over it.
I would rather have a Camry with an ES300 coat over it.
I would rather have a Mondeo with a Jaguar X-type coat over it.
I would rather have a Highlander with a RX300 coat over it.
End of story
08-16-2001, 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by Scooter:
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Scooter:
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 04:28 PM
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Well I think the two companies will leap frog each other in the next few years regarding hp and whose car is faster and what have u.. I think it is good that we have some hp wars .. too bad Toyota/Lexus doe snot wanna participate
08-16-2001, 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by e1828:
<STRONG>Well I think the two companies will leap frog each other in the next few years regarding hp and whose car is faster and what have u.. I think it is good that we have some hp wars .. too bad Toyota/Lexus doe snot wanna participate</STRONG>
<STRONG>Well I think the two companies will leap frog each other in the next few years regarding hp and whose car is faster and what have u.. I think it is good that we have some hp wars .. too bad Toyota/Lexus doe snot wanna participate</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by moomaster_99:
<STRONG>
They don't need to...the own the mid-level luxury market (30K~65k).</STRONG>
<STRONG>
They don't need to...the own the mid-level luxury market (30K~65k).</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by SilverSoCal_CL-P:
<STRONG>
Sorry, but it is just a Nissan. The quality of our cars and dealers is superior to the Nissan Maxima. The quality of the Infiniti I30 and their dealers is equal to the CL.
I would rather have a Passat with an A4 coat over it.
I would rather have a Camry with an ES300 coat over it.
I would rather have a Mondeo with a Jaguar X-type coat over it.
I would rather have a Highlander with a RX300 coat over it.
End of story</STRONG>
<STRONG>
Sorry, but it is just a Nissan. The quality of our cars and dealers is superior to the Nissan Maxima. The quality of the Infiniti I30 and their dealers is equal to the CL.
I would rather have a Passat with an A4 coat over it.
I would rather have a Camry with an ES300 coat over it.
I would rather have a Mondeo with a Jaguar X-type coat over it.
I would rather have a Highlander with a RX300 coat over it.
End of story</STRONG>
As far as quality is concerned, I belive that Infiniti has higher quality materials in the interior compared to our TL/CL. I am just shocked to just learn that my TL just has 1/2 leather seat and the rest being, who knows what.
I also think that "OMG Maximas will kick our butts, etc" is about the dumbest comments someone can make. If you were concerned about beating every car, why the hell did some of you buy the CL.
08-16-2001, 05:02 PM
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True !
I have beaten 2 Max's, both Manuals. Of course I do have Headers, but it was actually NO contest.
I have beaten 2 Max's, both Manuals. Of course I do have Headers, but it was actually NO contest.
Originally posted by spiroh:
<STRONG>I think u guys are smoking some shit to think the maxima is faster.
Spiro</STRONG>
<STRONG>I think u guys are smoking some shit to think the maxima is faster.
Spiro</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 05:07 PM
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The HICAS four wheel steering was a disaster. It was only offered on the Q45t in 1994 and 1995. I had one. For the year that I owned it the wheels had to be aligned under warranty on a monthly basis and they replaced two complete sets of tires due to irregular wear caused by HICAS.
08-16-2001, 05:26 PM
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well, for all those that are fighting about which car is better, i really thing that for all the money, the acura is the best car for it, in every class of cars or trucks. I am really lookin floward to gettin my next car casue i really want them MDx badly but if i dont get a truck as my next car, it may be a choice over teh tl-s and the infiniti i35, yes the infinti adn only casue its goin to have 260hp and alot more torqu then the cl-s. i love the luxery treatment that ive been spoiled with in my cl-s so i couldnt go back down a level and get the maxima, plus its but ugly anyway, but if its nice and has a better 0-60 times then the tl-s then i may get it, but if not, well, the tl-s is no shabby car either, i have loved it since it came out and was even thinkin of gettin the tl over the cl-s, but since i was drivin a 98 maxima already, i didnt want another 4 door car again, so its been over 1 year and man i love my cl-s, but like i said, i cant wait to go car shoppin again.
wg
wg
08-16-2001, 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Scooter:
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
<STRONG>don't know if u're aware, but Nissan has the HICAS system...it's not VSA, but it's something Honda/Acura doesn't have...HICAS system is where the back wheels turn the opposite way as the front wheels in unison so as to sharpen a turn, depending on how fast and how sharp...i used to have it on our old '93 J30, and it makes a difference.</STRONG>
08-16-2001, 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by z28typeSWRXkid:
<STRONG>
dude...what are you trying to get at. I am sick of poeple jus comin on the site and tryin to start stuff between the Max and Cl. Most of the time they just ramble on about useless facts like you just did. Get what car you want...and who cares who is a hair faster, or can handle a tad better?</STRONG>
<STRONG>
dude...what are you trying to get at. I am sick of poeple jus comin on the site and tryin to start stuff between the Max and Cl. Most of the time they just ramble on about useless facts like you just did. Get what car you want...and who cares who is a hair faster, or can handle a tad better?
</STRONG>
, but outlasted many car companies and mostly all that didn't last were American cars. Prof right there that American cars are not that well built. Sorry it looks like I started rambling at Nissan but I use start facts to support my arguments. But what I was trying to prove (even if it didn't look like it) was that competition is very large for all of the markets. We all should be happy that we love forge cars that outlast and beat the American cars in all but the truck classes "which Honda is going to fix in 2004 with a Truck". Just be happy for your Honda, Acura, Nissan, Toyota and Lexus and beat those American cars.
08-16-2001, 06:27 PM
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People wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lots of people here concern about performance. They can't get over that some guys buying lots of cheap cars that much faster then ours. It is normal. I don't know why they didn't buy mustangs, over CL-S, or because Mustang has performance, but nothing else.
Speed is not everything. Luxury, handling, performance and name are everything.
Remember people that you could of get Maxima any time, you had spend 5-7 more thousands for the car that has it all. And please don’t compare speed only. People that saying I spend less money and I still have faster car, this people is full of sheat and they don’t have any understanding, why spend more money and how. Some people don’t have 35 grand to spend, that is why they talking bulsheat.
Lots of people here concern about performance. They can't get over that some guys buying lots of cheap cars that much faster then ours. It is normal. I don't know why they didn't buy mustangs, over CL-S, or because Mustang has performance, but nothing else.
Speed is not everything. Luxury, handling, performance and name are everything.
Remember people that you could of get Maxima any time, you had spend 5-7 more thousands for the car that has it all. And please don’t compare speed only. People that saying I spend less money and I still have faster car, this people is full of sheat and they don’t have any understanding, why spend more money and how. Some people don’t have 35 grand to spend, that is why they talking bulsheat.
08-16-2001, 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by AC:
[QB]You guys realize that both the Maxima and the I30 has "real leather" on the entire seat. QB]
[QB]You guys realize that both the Maxima and the I30 has "real leather" on the entire seat. QB]
Honda/Acura uses different grades of vinyl. There are some portions of the seat that are obviously vinyl, while others are a little more difficult to distinguish from the leather. I wish they would use the Nissan/Infiniti approach by making it more seamless, especially in the Acura.
08-17-2001, 03:23 AM
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Originally posted by silverstarr:
<STRONG>
Actually, the Maxima and I30 also use vinyl on the non-seating surfaces of the seat. The difference is that the vinyl used feels very close in texture to the leather on the seating surfaces.
Honda/Acura uses different grades of vinyl. There are some portions of the seat that are obviously vinyl, while others are a little more difficult to distinguish from the leather. I wish they would use the Nissan/Infiniti approach by making it more seamless, especially in the Acura.</STRONG>
<STRONG>
Actually, the Maxima and I30 also use vinyl on the non-seating surfaces of the seat. The difference is that the vinyl used feels very close in texture to the leather on the seating surfaces.
Honda/Acura uses different grades of vinyl. There are some portions of the seat that are obviously vinyl, while others are a little more difficult to distinguish from the leather. I wish they would use the Nissan/Infiniti approach by making it more seamless, especially in the Acura.</STRONG>
Actually I didn't know that. All along when I had a 98 Max, I thought the whole damn seat was leather...oh well.
08-17-2001, 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by 2002 3.2 CL:
<STRONG>I sat here and read all of this about how Nissan and cant hold it in any longer. First off just cause a Maxima manual can beat a CL-S by very little doesn't mean that it can handle better. The CL-S has VSA, Nissan can't even spell VSA. Second when can a V6 do 340 HP unless Nissan takes the cheap way out and add their so caller supercharger thing to the car. CL's and Type S are way more luxury with all that it has like the navi and the climate control. And last you would be proud that your manual Maxima can beat an automatic car. Just wait’ from what I have read' the 6 speed manual will be out in 2003 on the CL-S and on the soon to be released 2003 TL-S. Then the 2002 or 2003 Honda Accord with the 240 HP and 5-speed manual. So Nissan might think there winning but Honda is right behind them. Even without being a little faster than Nissan, Honda and Acura sells way more cars that win more awards from higher class magazines than Nissan will ever have. And when has Infiniti ever one any awards in the last 5 years from any magazine other than the mags that only talk about Nissans. All of this is fact and not just hype, so there isn't much you could say to save Nissans ass. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes.</STRONG>
<STRONG>I sat here and read all of this about how Nissan and cant hold it in any longer. First off just cause a Maxima manual can beat a CL-S by very little doesn't mean that it can handle better. The CL-S has VSA, Nissan can't even spell VSA. Second when can a V6 do 340 HP unless Nissan takes the cheap way out and add their so caller supercharger thing to the car. CL's and Type S are way more luxury with all that it has like the navi and the climate control. And last you would be proud that your manual Maxima can beat an automatic car. Just wait’ from what I have read' the 6 speed manual will be out in 2003 on the CL-S and on the soon to be released 2003 TL-S. Then the 2002 or 2003 Honda Accord with the 240 HP and 5-speed manual. So Nissan might think there winning but Honda is right behind them. Even without being a little faster than Nissan, Honda and Acura sells way more cars that win more awards from higher class magazines than Nissan will ever have. And when has Infiniti ever one any awards in the last 5 years from any magazine other than the mags that only talk about Nissans. All of this is fact and not just hype, so there isn't much you could say to save Nissans ass. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes.</STRONG>
And the I30 has hid's, 17" rims, nav, and Climate control just like the cl!!
Adam
10-31-2001, 12:47 PM
#27
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Originally posted by moomaster_99
HICAS is a system that was used on the Skyline.....and Nissan 300Z...and the J30...this was a great concept...so was ative suspension...they were both canned because of te expense...and no NISSAN/INFINTI has it currently in the USA so that is a moot point to bring up.
HICAS is a system that was used on the Skyline.....and Nissan 300Z...and the J30...this was a great concept...so was ative suspension...they were both canned because of te expense...and no NISSAN/INFINTI has it currently in the USA so that is a moot point to bring up.
10-31-2001, 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by jdl75
HICAS? That's SOOOO early nineties - ever see a prelude? Honda was one of the first, and found out it wasn't liked by custoemrs.
HICAS? That's SOOOO early nineties - ever see a prelude? Honda was one of the first, and found out it wasn't liked by custoemrs.
10-31-2001, 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by A T Fo Sentra!
The Skyline doesn't have HICAS. It has a different system called ATTESSA. HICAS came on the 300ZX, 240SX, and J30. The new Skyline (G35 in the US) has ATTESSA too. Hopefully it will make it here to the US with it.
The Skyline doesn't have HICAS. It has a different system called ATTESSA. HICAS came on the 300ZX, 240SX, and J30. The new Skyline (G35 in the US) has ATTESSA too. Hopefully it will make it here to the US with it.
10-31-2001, 02:07 PM
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Hahahaha! It's really funny how people keep saying "my car's better than yours because of this and that!" Give it a rest! To you Maxima owners why do you guys keep insisting that your car is so much faster than a CL Type S??? Like a few people in here have pointed out we need to compare apples to apples. The Maxima and the I35 are sedans which should be compared the TL Type S.. For now, Nissan/Infiniti does not have a coupe that would compare to the CL Type S. I know you Nissan guys will start screaming that the new Z will be here but it's not going to arrive in showrooms until mid 2003.. So until then stop bickering and yelling about who's car is better because who honestly cares?? If you like your car good, why do you have to force it down other people's throats?? 
10-31-2001, 10:06 PM
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I am not on Nissan's side or anything since I myself like Honda way more than Nissan. But talking about the truth, Nissan has many things that Honda still has not had, probably because Honda doesn't want to develop those things or because of some other reasons, but still, Nissan has V8, pickup truck, twin turbo, inline 6, RWD sedan, and Honda still has none of these. Sure, Honda can have all of them if it wants to, but at least you should not say Nissan sucks, because in fact it is a very good car company, just as good as Toyota and Honda, and that's why they are the big three in Japan. I truly believe that Nissan would be successful in the U.S. with its current strategy, unlike a few years before.
10-31-2001, 10:20 PM
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Re: Honda-Acura vs Nissan-Infiniti
Originally posted by 2002 3.2 CL
Honda-Acura vs Nissan-Infiniti
Honda-Acura vs Nissan-Infiniti
Unreal Tournament vs. Quake3Arena
Internet Explorer vs. Netscape.
Gamecube vs. X-Box
Conservative vs. Liberal
Evolution vs. Creation
Missionary vs. Doggy-style.
Er, well, you get my point.
10-31-2001, 10:22 PM
#36
6 speed...
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Originally posted by SilverCL225hp
Nissan has V8, pickup truck, twin turbo, inline 6, RWD sedan, and Honda still has none of these.
Nissan has V8, pickup truck, twin turbo, inline 6, RWD sedan, and Honda still has none of these.
11-01-2001, 09:04 AM
#38
almost as fast as a CL-S
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lets put an end to this once and for all
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=52312
maybe we will get a couple 6spd guys to run too
http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...threadid=52312
maybe we will get a couple 6spd guys to run too
11-01-2001, 11:16 AM
#39
Suzuka Master
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Originally posted by SilverCL225hp
I am not on Nissan's side or anything since I myself like Honda way more than Nissan. But talking about the truth, Nissan has many things that Honda still has not had, probably because Honda doesn't want to develop those things or because of some other reasons, but still, Nissan has V8, pickup truck, twin turbo, inline 6, RWD sedan, and Honda still has none of these. Sure, Honda can have all of them if it wants to, but at least you should not say Nissan sucks, because in fact it is a very good car company, just as good as Toyota and Honda, and that's why they are the big three in Japan. I truly believe that Nissan would be successful in the U.S. with its current strategy, unlike a few years before.
I am not on Nissan's side or anything since I myself like Honda way more than Nissan. But talking about the truth, Nissan has many things that Honda still has not had, probably because Honda doesn't want to develop those things or because of some other reasons, but still, Nissan has V8, pickup truck, twin turbo, inline 6, RWD sedan, and Honda still has none of these. Sure, Honda can have all of them if it wants to, but at least you should not say Nissan sucks, because in fact it is a very good car company, just as good as Toyota and Honda, and that's why they are the big three in Japan. I truly believe that Nissan would be successful in the U.S. with its current strategy, unlike a few years before.
nissan doesn't have a car-based suv, high performance roadster, or luxury sports coupe.
11-01-2001, 03:21 PM
#40
1st Gear
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I'm up for a friendly race if anybody is in western NY. I'll even allow NOS even though I'm NA. If you're stock then don't bother.
(this is not intended as a flame, I your cars just as much in many ways, just can't live with an auto. )
(this is not intended as a flame, I your cars just as much in many ways, just can't live with an auto. )