GM losing as much as $49,000 per volt sold
#1
-Brian
Thread Starter
GM losing as much as $49,000 per volt sold
Another great idea to fund the Volt Obama
Let's work on gas prices before having another stupid idea.
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-per-volt-sold
Let's work on gas prices before having another stupid idea.
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-per-volt-sold
#5
GM's basic problem is that "the Volt is over-engineered and over-priced," said Dennis Virag, president of the Michigan-based Automotive Consulting Group.
I'd actually like to own a Volt.
#6
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Linky: GM Response to Reuters Story on Chevrolet Volt Development Costs
DETROIT – Reuters’ estimate of the current loss per unit for each Volt sold is grossly wrong, in part because the reporters allocated product development costs across the number of Volts sold instead of allocating across the lifetime volume of the program, which is how business operates. The Reuters’ numbers become more wrong with each Volt sold.
In addition, our core research into battery cells, battery packs, controls, electric motors, regenerative braking and other technologies has applications across multiple current and future products, which will help spread costs over a much higher volume, thereby reducing manufacturing and purchasing costs. This will eventually lead to profitability for the Volt and future electrified vehicles.
Every investment in technology that GM makes is designed to have a payoff for our customers, to meet future regulatory requirements and add to the bottom line. The Volt is no different, even if it takes longer to become profitable.
GM is at the forefront of the electrification of the automobile because we are developing innovative technologies and building an enthusiastic – and growing – customer base for vehicles like the Volt.
DETROIT – Reuters’ estimate of the current loss per unit for each Volt sold is grossly wrong, in part because the reporters allocated product development costs across the number of Volts sold instead of allocating across the lifetime volume of the program, which is how business operates. The Reuters’ numbers become more wrong with each Volt sold.
In addition, our core research into battery cells, battery packs, controls, electric motors, regenerative braking and other technologies has applications across multiple current and future products, which will help spread costs over a much higher volume, thereby reducing manufacturing and purchasing costs. This will eventually lead to profitability for the Volt and future electrified vehicles.
Every investment in technology that GM makes is designed to have a payoff for our customers, to meet future regulatory requirements and add to the bottom line. The Volt is no different, even if it takes longer to become profitable.
GM is at the forefront of the electrification of the automobile because we are developing innovative technologies and building an enthusiastic – and growing – customer base for vehicles like the Volt.
Last edited by Shoofin; 09-11-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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#7
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Yeah, this is a story built upon a faulty assumption of how the accounting works.
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#8
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For now.
As I understand it, the more Volts sold, the lower the cost-per-unit using the same erroneous "accounting" as used by Reuters.
Every Volt sold is profitable from a cost-of-production standpoint.
As I understand it, the more Volts sold, the lower the cost-per-unit using the same erroneous "accounting" as used by Reuters.
Every Volt sold is profitable from a cost-of-production standpoint.
#9
Another great idea to fund the Volt Obama
Let's work on gas prices before having another stupid idea.
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-per-volt-sold
Let's work on gas prices before having another stupid idea.
http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-per-volt-sold
#10
Moderator
#12
Suzuka Master
you can, just dont put up an article that clearly doesnt know its shit...
I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
#13
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Volts have been hard to get in CA...but thats understandable seeing how we are very hippy "eco" state.
My wife's cousin got one and let us check it out...I like it. Its very nicely done. I know a camera operator who got one, too. He spends about $30 bucks in gas a year.
For a city commuter its a nice little car.
My wife's cousin got one and let us check it out...I like it. Its very nicely done. I know a camera operator who got one, too. He spends about $30 bucks in gas a year.
For a city commuter its a nice little car.
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speedemon90 (09-11-2012)
#16
-Brian
Thread Starter
you can, just dont put up an article that clearly doesnt know its shit...
I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
#17
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Maybe now is a good time to just stop talking.
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#18
Senior Moderator
So, let me get this straight. Car Company A builds a new model with $10M in R&D and $20k/car production cost. They sell their first car for $40k and someone says, "Well, they are losing $10M per car."
C'mon. Pull your head out and keep the political editorials in R&P.
C'mon. Pull your head out and keep the political editorials in R&P.
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juniorbean (09-12-2012)
#19
Volts have been hard to get in CA...but thats understandable seeing how we are very hippy "eco" state.
My wife's cousin got one and let us check it out...I like it. Its very nicely done. I know a camera operator who got one, too. He spends about $30 bucks in gas a year.
For a city commuter its a nice little car.
My wife's cousin got one and let us check it out...I like it. Its very nicely done. I know a camera operator who got one, too. He spends about $30 bucks in gas a year.
For a city commuter its a nice little car.
#20
Guess you didn't even click the link for the story. Headline says "GM losing as much as $49,000 per Volt sold"
#21
-Brian
Thread Starter
#22
you can, just dont put up an article that clearly doesnt know its shit...
I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
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Nexson (09-11-2012)
#23
-Brian
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#24
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If it was better suited to twins, Id consider it.
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#26
-Brian
Thread Starter
Anyways can anyone honestly say the volt is a success or GM has profited from this car?
What is everyone's view on electric cars? Should we continue to pursue this? I am interested to hear what everyone thinks about this.
Should there only be a release of an electric car if it is significant, ie: more then 150 miles on electric?
Last edited by Nexson; 09-11-2012 at 06:07 PM.
#27
There is nothing wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction. It doesn't violate any grammar practices.
Even the Merriam Webster's dictionary says there's nothing wrong with it (see --> http://books.google.com/books?id=2yJ...age%22&f=false )
as does the Oxford Dictionary. (see --> http://books.google.com/books?id=z_V...nction&f=false
and --> http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2...a-conjunction/ )
Even the Merriam Webster's dictionary says there's nothing wrong with it (see --> http://books.google.com/books?id=2yJ...age%22&f=false )
as does the Oxford Dictionary. (see --> http://books.google.com/books?id=z_V...nction&f=false
and --> http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2...a-conjunction/ )
#28
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (1)
Meh at this endless cycle of bashing USA engineering/products. I guess China does it better....but then again ah nvm.. Either way, we've finally decided to purchase a volt within the next couple of years. We shifted back and forth with Audi and Chevy over the last few months, but the volt just makes more sense. The fact that owners are going up to 6+ months without refueling or spending less than a grand on fuel (annually) is huge.
#29
Suzuka Master
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I will trade you an apostrophe for a comma, looks like you need it more then I do bud. I might add, shame on you for starting a sentence with a conjunction. Laugh it off big guy, it's not so serious, let's get back on topic!!
Anyways can anyone honestly say the volt is a success or GM has profited from this car?
What is everyone's view on electric cars? Should we continue to pursue this? I am interested to hear what everyone thinks about this.
Should there only be a release of an electric car if it is significant, ie: more then 150 miles on electric?
Anyways can anyone honestly say the volt is a success or GM has profited from this car?
What is everyone's view on electric cars? Should we continue to pursue this? I am interested to hear what everyone thinks about this.
Should there only be a release of an electric car if it is significant, ie: more then 150 miles on electric?
2) You're using "then" when you should be using "than"
3) It IS perfectly OK to begin a sentence with a conjunction. You learn that in High School English if you have a teacher worth anything.
4) "Anyways" is not a real word.
So, who needs it more?
5) Gas/Electric Hybrids such as the Volt and Karma are worth looking into. Having the gas back up system is a nice precaution. When people start figuring out the torque on electrics has LOTS of potential, and car companies such as Toyota take the damn nannies off their popularity will increase.
I would bet money if Toyota would up the actual torque produced by the electric motor on the Prius to give it more oomph off the line it would actually get even better gas mileage, as well as be more fun to drive.
#31
Suzuka Master
I think one of two things will happen.
Hydrogen or some other form to produce energy to turn a wheel will take over
Or
There will be a significant advancement in the battery, making it a whole lot more efficient.
#32
From Forbes:
For reference, Chevy Volt sales:
Aug '12 = 2,831
July '12 = 1,849
June '12 = 1,760
May '12 = 1,680
April '12 = 1,462
Mar '12 = 2,289
Feb '12 = 1,023
Jan '12 = 603
Dec '11 = 1,529
21,494 Volt's have been sold since going on sale in Dec. 2010.
I think those sales #s are better than Honda Insight or CR-Z or Civic hybrid sales
The Real Story On GM's Volt Costs
Bob Lutz, Contributor
I was surprised to read Ben Klayman’s piece on alleged astronomical per-unit losses on the Chevrolet “Volt.” Ben is usually a solid professional who checks his facts.
The statement that GM “loses” over $40K per Volt is preposterous. What the “analyst” in whom poor Ben Klayman placed his faith has done is to divide the total development cost and plant investment by the number of Volts produced thus far. That’s like saying that a real estate company that puts up a $10 million building and has rental income of one million the first year is “losing” 9 million dollars, or several hundred thousand per renter.
Listen, Ben and Micheline: that’s not how car business cost accounting works.
Let me provide a look at how a car company tracks profitability of a product program: measured are material cost and labor, and these are deducted from the selling price. The positive difference is called “gross margin.” Then, one allocates per-unit “fixed cost” (advertising, general overhead, etc.) plus per-unit depreciation and amortization of the initial investment, based on the TOTAL NUMBER TO BE PRODUCED OVER THE LIFETIME of the product. If the margin, after all deductions, is still positive, then we call it a “fully accounted profit,” and the car is a winner.
The Volt “variable cost” (labor and materials, without revealing any confidential GM information), looks very roughly like this: A Li-Ion battery today runs about $350 per KWh. The Volt’s is 16KWh, so that’s roughly $6000. Add $4,000 for the battery pack structure, the cooling, the high-voltage wiring, the motor and the power electronics. So, that’s the electric portion. Add about 20 hours of assembly labor which we’ll round to a very generous $1000. The dealer net price is, say, $37,000. We now have $26,000 left for the rest of the car, which, cost-wise, is about equal to a Chevy “Cruze” which sells for around $22,000 retail! (And the Volt has no costly conventional transmission.) Thus, the “Volt”, by my estimate, is either close to “variable break-even” or may be on the cusp of a positive gross margin. Deduct the per-unit allocation for all fixed cost, depreciation and amortization and it is, surely, still “under water”….but not by much, and less and less so as the volume builds and other, higher-margin GM cars, like the Cadillac ELR, piggy-back off of the Volt’s initial investment.
Maybe the Volt, a first-generation technology masterpiece and the most-awarded car in automotive history, will never make a really decent profit.
But succeeding generations of the same technology will. Meanwhile, the happy Volt buyers (most satisfied owners of any nameplate in the market) are getting more that they paid for. (Is that so bad?)
We won’t even factor in the profound halo effect the introduction of the Volt has had on GM’s reputation as a leader in environmental automotive technology; it’s priceless, and could never have been achieved without it.
So, once again, the knee-jerk Volt bashers, devoid of any real knowledge, have had their usual joyous verbal catharsis, but the car doesn’t care: The volumes are building globally and it’s doing exactly what it was designed to do.
Bob Lutz, Contributor
I was surprised to read Ben Klayman’s piece on alleged astronomical per-unit losses on the Chevrolet “Volt.” Ben is usually a solid professional who checks his facts.
The statement that GM “loses” over $40K per Volt is preposterous. What the “analyst” in whom poor Ben Klayman placed his faith has done is to divide the total development cost and plant investment by the number of Volts produced thus far. That’s like saying that a real estate company that puts up a $10 million building and has rental income of one million the first year is “losing” 9 million dollars, or several hundred thousand per renter.
Listen, Ben and Micheline: that’s not how car business cost accounting works.
Let me provide a look at how a car company tracks profitability of a product program: measured are material cost and labor, and these are deducted from the selling price. The positive difference is called “gross margin.” Then, one allocates per-unit “fixed cost” (advertising, general overhead, etc.) plus per-unit depreciation and amortization of the initial investment, based on the TOTAL NUMBER TO BE PRODUCED OVER THE LIFETIME of the product. If the margin, after all deductions, is still positive, then we call it a “fully accounted profit,” and the car is a winner.
The Volt “variable cost” (labor and materials, without revealing any confidential GM information), looks very roughly like this: A Li-Ion battery today runs about $350 per KWh. The Volt’s is 16KWh, so that’s roughly $6000. Add $4,000 for the battery pack structure, the cooling, the high-voltage wiring, the motor and the power electronics. So, that’s the electric portion. Add about 20 hours of assembly labor which we’ll round to a very generous $1000. The dealer net price is, say, $37,000. We now have $26,000 left for the rest of the car, which, cost-wise, is about equal to a Chevy “Cruze” which sells for around $22,000 retail! (And the Volt has no costly conventional transmission.) Thus, the “Volt”, by my estimate, is either close to “variable break-even” or may be on the cusp of a positive gross margin. Deduct the per-unit allocation for all fixed cost, depreciation and amortization and it is, surely, still “under water”….but not by much, and less and less so as the volume builds and other, higher-margin GM cars, like the Cadillac ELR, piggy-back off of the Volt’s initial investment.
Maybe the Volt, a first-generation technology masterpiece and the most-awarded car in automotive history, will never make a really decent profit.
But succeeding generations of the same technology will. Meanwhile, the happy Volt buyers (most satisfied owners of any nameplate in the market) are getting more that they paid for. (Is that so bad?)
We won’t even factor in the profound halo effect the introduction of the Volt has had on GM’s reputation as a leader in environmental automotive technology; it’s priceless, and could never have been achieved without it.
So, once again, the knee-jerk Volt bashers, devoid of any real knowledge, have had their usual joyous verbal catharsis, but the car doesn’t care: The volumes are building globally and it’s doing exactly what it was designed to do.
For reference, Chevy Volt sales:
Aug '12 = 2,831
July '12 = 1,849
June '12 = 1,760
May '12 = 1,680
April '12 = 1,462
Mar '12 = 2,289
Feb '12 = 1,023
Jan '12 = 603
Dec '11 = 1,529
21,494 Volt's have been sold since going on sale in Dec. 2010.
I think those sales #s are better than Honda Insight or CR-Z or Civic hybrid sales
Last edited by AZuser; 09-11-2012 at 08:33 PM.
#33
Suzuka Master
5) Gas/Electric Hybrids such as the Volt and Karma are worth looking into. Having the gas back up system is a nice precaution. When people start figuring out the torque on electrics has LOTS of potential, and car companies such as Toyota take the damn nannies off their popularity will increase.
I would bet money if Toyota would up the actual torque produced by the electric motor on the Prius to give it more oomph off the line it would actually get even better gas mileage, as well as be more fun to drive.
I would bet money if Toyota would up the actual torque produced by the electric motor on the Prius to give it more oomph off the line it would actually get even better gas mileage, as well as be more fun to drive.
Tesla.
Their top of the line model S has 443lb-ft. Autoblog and Insideline are getting under 4 second 0-60 sprints from this 4600lb monster!
I cant wait until my uncle gets his.. should be within a month now! So excited!
#35
Senior Moderator
The up front costs will be covered when GM sells more than one model year of the Volt. It's really a pretty simple concept. Any introductory course to economics or cost analysis would cover why the article is wrong.
#36
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The REAL question is, how many Volt sales will it take to break even?
No fudging of numbers. Removing subsidies etc.
No fudging of numbers. Removing subsidies etc.
#37
E92
Meh at this endless cycle of bashing USA engineering/products. I guess China does it better....but then again ah nvm.. Either way, we've finally decided to purchase a volt within the next couple of years. We shifted back and forth with Audi and Chevy over the last few months, but the volt just makes more sense. The fact that owners are going up to 6+ months without refueling or spending less than a grand on fuel (annually) is huge.
#38
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Honda makes all of those in Japan and sells them at a loss thanks to the dollar/yen exchange rate. My wife and I waited MONTHS to get a CR-Z EX. And the materials, features and tech involved were easily more than the $22,000 we paid.
Honda doesn't promote or encourage these models in the US at all for a reason. Now if they start building them in Indiana or Ohio...
#39
Suzuka Master
But there's also the fact that cadillac is releasing their version of the volt, ELR hybrid or something like that. Expect other GM cars to use the same tech. Which means its not only the volt that needs to split the costs.
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