GM losing as much as $49,000 per volt sold

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Old 09-11-2012, 09:02 AM
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Thumbs down GM losing as much as $49,000 per volt sold

Another great idea to fund the Volt Obama
Let's work on gas prices before having another stupid idea.

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-per-volt-sold
Old 09-11-2012, 09:31 AM
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$89k to produce?
Old 09-11-2012, 09:56 AM
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Yeas dumb I don't think covers it.
Old 09-11-2012, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RPhilMan1
$89k to produce?
Production cost + research and development + over head = 89k / car.

Productiion itself is super cheap. It's the research that screwed them up. 1 billion. Wtf
Old 09-11-2012, 10:14 AM
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GM's basic problem is that "the Volt is over-engineered and over-priced," said Dennis Virag, president of the Michigan-based Automotive Consulting Group.
Doesn't he mean "over-engineered and under priced?" Understood that many see it as already over-priced but if you're losing money per car your selling it too cheaply.

I'd actually like to own a Volt.
Old 09-11-2012, 10:39 AM
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Linky: GM Response to Reuters Story on Chevrolet Volt Development Costs


DETROIT – Reuters’ estimate of the current loss per unit for each Volt sold is grossly wrong, in part because the reporters allocated product development costs across the number of Volts sold instead of allocating across the lifetime volume of the program, which is how business operates. The Reuters’ numbers become more wrong with each Volt sold.

In addition, our core research into battery cells, battery packs, controls, electric motors, regenerative braking and other technologies has applications across multiple current and future products, which will help spread costs over a much higher volume, thereby reducing manufacturing and purchasing costs. This will eventually lead to profitability for the Volt and future electrified vehicles.

Every investment in technology that GM makes is designed to have a payoff for our customers, to meet future regulatory requirements and add to the bottom line. The Volt is no different, even if it takes longer to become profitable.

GM is at the forefront of the electrification of the automobile because we are developing innovative technologies and building an enthusiastic – and growing – customer base for vehicles like the Volt.

Last edited by Shoofin; 09-11-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 09-11-2012, 10:41 AM
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Yeah, this is a story built upon a faulty assumption of how the accounting works.
Old 09-11-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by nspec_ya4
Production cost + research and development + over head = 89k / car.
For now.

As I understand it, the more Volts sold, the lower the cost-per-unit using the same erroneous "accounting" as used by Reuters.

Every Volt sold is profitable from a cost-of-production standpoint.
Old 09-11-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
Another great idea to fund the Volt Obama
Let's work on gas prices before having another stupid idea.

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/...-per-volt-sold
I'm not a fan of the guy either, but was that really necessary?
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Old 09-11-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AZuser
I'm not a fan of the guy either, but was that really necessary?
Especially since the development of the Volt pre-dated the current Administration by a significant margin.
Old 09-11-2012, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AZuser
I'm not a fan of the guy either, but was that really necessary?
Why not? Everyone voices their .02, can't I? Isn't that my right
Old 09-11-2012, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
Why not? Everyone voices their .02, can't I? Isn't that my right
you can, just dont put up an article that clearly doesnt know its shit...

I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
Old 09-11-2012, 03:00 PM
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Volts have been hard to get in CA...but thats understandable seeing how we are very hippy "eco" state.

My wife's cousin got one and let us check it out...I like it. Its very nicely done. I know a camera operator who got one, too. He spends about $30 bucks in gas a year.

For a city commuter its a nice little car.
Old 09-11-2012, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
Why not? Everyone voices their .02, can't I? Isn't that my right
Of course you can... but it's better to have a good source with accurate data when trying to use a link to backup to said comment...
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:24 PM
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With 60 miles per plug in this car doesn't seem to impress me espescially after reports of 40 miles per plug in. You do the math
Old 09-11-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90
you can, just dont put up an article that clearly doesnt know its shit...

I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
It might be a good idea to take a look at those sales number bud
Old 09-11-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
With 60 miles per plug in this car doesn't seem to impress me espescially after reports of 40 miles per plug in. You do the math
Um...once again you're info is bunk. The battery IS rated for 39 miles, and thats exactly what most people are claiming to get.

Maybe now is a good time to just stop talking.
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Old 09-11-2012, 04:20 PM
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So, let me get this straight. Car Company A builds a new model with $10M in R&D and $20k/car production cost. They sell their first car for $40k and someone says, "Well, they are losing $10M per car."

C'mon. Pull your head out and keep the political editorials in R&P.
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarlacc
Volts have been hard to get in CA...but thats understandable seeing how we are very hippy "eco" state.

My wife's cousin got one and let us check it out...I like it. Its very nicely done. I know a camera operator who got one, too. He spends about $30 bucks in gas a year.

For a city commuter its a nice little car.
I've been seeing TV commercials talking about this. I keep thinking is the trade off worth it, spend up to 20k for this car or pay for gas with another.
Old 09-11-2012, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by oo7spy
So, let me get this straight. Car Company A builds a new model with $10M in R&D and $20k/car production cost. They sell their first car for $40k and someone says, "Well, they are losing $10M per car."

C'mon. Pull your head out and keep the political editorials in R&P.
Guess you didn't even click the link for the story. Headline says "GM losing as much as $49,000 per Volt sold"
Old 09-11-2012, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarlacc
Um...once again you're info is bunk. The battery IS rated for 39 miles, and thats exactly what most people are claiming to get.

Maybe now is a good time to just stop talking.
my info is bunk, or "your" spelling is bunk
Old 09-11-2012, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90
you can, just dont put up an article that clearly doesnt know its shit...

I think the volt is starting to be a success, just took some time. I havent looked at sales numbers. But with my own eyes, i'm starting to see volts pretty often. Before i never really saw them.
Is a success spending double to build it, for what you sell it for?
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
Is a success spending double to build it, for what you sell it for?
exactly, can anyone here, honestly say GM is profiting off the Volt?

anyone? As of now..

just a question
Old 09-11-2012, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
I've been seeing TV commercials talking about this. I keep thinking is the trade off worth it, spend up to 20k for this car or pay for gas with another.
Because of GMs troubles they have had RIDICULOUS lease deals on these.

If it was better suited to twins, Id consider it.
Old 09-11-2012, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
my info is bunk, or "your" spelling is bunk
Thats not spelling thats grammar and a simple mis-typing. And you improperly used a comma...

Care to try again mister genius?
Old 09-11-2012, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarlacc
Thats not spelling thats grammar and a simple mis-typing. And you improperly used a comma...

Care to try again mister genius?
I will trade you an apostrophe for a comma, looks like you need it more then I do bud. I might add, shame on you for starting a sentence with a conjunction. Laugh it off big guy, it's not so serious, let's get back on topic!!

Anyways can anyone honestly say the volt is a success or GM has profited from this car?

What is everyone's view on electric cars? Should we continue to pursue this? I am interested to hear what everyone thinks about this.

Should there only be a release of an electric car if it is significant, ie: more then 150 miles on electric?

Last edited by Nexson; 09-11-2012 at 06:07 PM.
Old 09-11-2012, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
I might add, shame on you for starting a sentence with a conjunction.
There is nothing wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction. It doesn't violate any grammar practices.

Even the Merriam Webster's dictionary says there's nothing wrong with it (see --> http://books.google.com/books?id=2yJ...age%22&f=false )

as does the Oxford Dictionary. (see --> http://books.google.com/books?id=z_V...nction&f=false

and --> http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2...a-conjunction/ )
Old 09-11-2012, 06:45 PM
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Meh at this endless cycle of bashing USA engineering/products. I guess China does it better....but then again ah nvm.. Either way, we've finally decided to purchase a volt within the next couple of years. We shifted back and forth with Audi and Chevy over the last few months, but the volt just makes more sense. The fact that owners are going up to 6+ months without refueling or spending less than a grand on fuel (annually) is huge.
Old 09-11-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
Is a success spending double to build it, for what you sell it for?
From the article posted the cost to build the Volt is $20,000-$32,000, get your shit right
Old 09-11-2012, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson
I will trade you an apostrophe for a comma, looks like you need it more then I do bud. I might add, shame on you for starting a sentence with a conjunction. Laugh it off big guy, it's not so serious, let's get back on topic!!

Anyways can anyone honestly say the volt is a success or GM has profited from this car?

What is everyone's view on electric cars? Should we continue to pursue this? I am interested to hear what everyone thinks about this.

Should there only be a release of an electric car if it is significant, ie: more then 150 miles on electric?
1) I think we can all agree my lack of apostrophes is more from speed of typing than knowing they actually belong there.

2) You're using "then" when you should be using "than"

3) It IS perfectly OK to begin a sentence with a conjunction. You learn that in High School English if you have a teacher worth anything.

4) "Anyways" is not a real word.

So, who needs it more?

5) Gas/Electric Hybrids such as the Volt and Karma are worth looking into. Having the gas back up system is a nice precaution. When people start figuring out the torque on electrics has LOTS of potential, and car companies such as Toyota take the damn nannies off their popularity will increase.

I would bet money if Toyota would up the actual torque produced by the electric motor on the Prius to give it more oomph off the line it would actually get even better gas mileage, as well as be more fun to drive.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexson

What is everyone's view on electric cars? Should we continue to pursue this? I am interested to hear what everyone thinks about this.
I think it really is just a short term approach. Electricity is still not green, well for the most part. Neither is digging up the rare earth metals to produce large quantities of these batteries.

I think one of two things will happen.

Hydrogen or some other form to produce energy to turn a wheel will take over

Or

There will be a significant advancement in the battery, making it a whole lot more efficient.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:27 PM
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From Forbes:

The Real Story On GM's Volt Costs

Bob Lutz, Contributor

I was surprised to read Ben Klayman’s piece on alleged astronomical per-unit losses on the Chevrolet “Volt.” Ben is usually a solid professional who checks his facts.

The statement that GM “loses” over $40K per Volt is preposterous. What the “analyst” in whom poor Ben Klayman placed his faith has done is to divide the total development cost and plant investment by the number of Volts produced thus far. That’s like saying that a real estate company that puts up a $10 million building and has rental income of one million the first year is “losing” 9 million dollars, or several hundred thousand per renter.

Listen, Ben and Micheline: that’s not how car business cost accounting works.

Let me provide a look at how a car company tracks profitability of a product program: measured are material cost and labor, and these are deducted from the selling price. The positive difference is called “gross margin.” Then, one allocates per-unit “fixed cost” (advertising, general overhead, etc.) plus per-unit depreciation and amortization of the initial investment, based on the TOTAL NUMBER TO BE PRODUCED OVER THE LIFETIME of the product. If the margin, after all deductions, is still positive, then we call it a “fully accounted profit,” and the car is a winner.

The Volt “variable cost” (labor and materials, without revealing any confidential GM information), looks very roughly like this: A Li-Ion battery today runs about $350 per KWh. The Volt’s is 16KWh, so that’s roughly $6000. Add $4,000 for the battery pack structure, the cooling, the high-voltage wiring, the motor and the power electronics. So, that’s the electric portion. Add about 20 hours of assembly labor which we’ll round to a very generous $1000. The dealer net price is, say, $37,000. We now have $26,000 left for the rest of the car, which, cost-wise, is about equal to a Chevy “Cruze” which sells for around $22,000 retail! (And the Volt has no costly conventional transmission.) Thus, the “Volt”, by my estimate, is either close to “variable break-even” or may be on the cusp of a positive gross margin. Deduct the per-unit allocation for all fixed cost, depreciation and amortization and it is, surely, still “under water”….but not by much, and less and less so as the volume builds and other, higher-margin GM cars, like the Cadillac ELR, piggy-back off of the Volt’s initial investment.

Maybe the Volt, a first-generation technology masterpiece and the most-awarded car in automotive history, will never make a really decent profit.

But succeeding generations of the same technology will. Meanwhile, the happy Volt buyers (most satisfied owners of any nameplate in the market) are getting more that they paid for. (Is that so bad?)

We won’t even factor in the profound halo effect the introduction of the Volt has had on GM’s reputation as a leader in environmental automotive technology; it’s priceless, and could never have been achieved without it.

So, once again, the knee-jerk Volt bashers, devoid of any real knowledge, have had their usual joyous verbal catharsis, but the car doesn’t care: The volumes are building globally and it’s doing exactly what it was designed to do.


For reference, Chevy Volt sales:

Aug '12 = 2,831
July '12 = 1,849
June '12 = 1,760
May '12 = 1,680
April '12 = 1,462
Mar '12 = 2,289
Feb '12 = 1,023
Jan '12 = 603
Dec '11 = 1,529

21,494 Volt's have been sold since going on sale in Dec. 2010.


I think those sales #s are better than Honda Insight or CR-Z or Civic hybrid sales

Last edited by AZuser; 09-11-2012 at 08:33 PM.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarlacc
5) Gas/Electric Hybrids such as the Volt and Karma are worth looking into. Having the gas back up system is a nice precaution. When people start figuring out the torque on electrics has LOTS of potential, and car companies such as Toyota take the damn nannies off their popularity will increase.

I would bet money if Toyota would up the actual torque produced by the electric motor on the Prius to give it more oomph off the line it would actually get even better gas mileage, as well as be more fun to drive.
you know what manufacturer may show this.
Tesla.

Their top of the line model S has 443lb-ft. Autoblog and Insideline are getting under 4 second 0-60 sprints from this 4600lb monster!
I cant wait until my uncle gets his.. should be within a month now! So excited!
Old 09-11-2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90
you know what manufacturer may show this.
Tesla.

Their top of the line model S has 443lb-ft. Autoblog and Insideline are getting under 4 second 0-60 sprints from this 4600lb monster!
I cant wait until my uncle gets his.. should be within a month now! So excited!
Hopefully Musk gets his shit together. Tesla has the makings to be a great company.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jupitersolo
Guess you didn't even click the link for the story. Headline says "GM losing as much as $49,000 per Volt sold"
I'll read the article when you read the thread. The article is wrong.
Originally Posted by jupitersolo
Is a success spending double to build it, for what you sell it for?
But I could have sworn it was a fact. The title of a thread told me so.

The up front costs will be covered when GM sells more than one model year of the Volt. It's really a pretty simple concept. Any introductory course to economics or cost analysis would cover why the article is wrong.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:45 PM
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The REAL question is, how many Volt sales will it take to break even?

No fudging of numbers. Removing subsidies etc.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by whudini3000
Meh at this endless cycle of bashing USA engineering/products. I guess China does it better....but then again ah nvm.. Either way, we've finally decided to purchase a volt within the next couple of years. We shifted back and forth with Audi and Chevy over the last few months, but the volt just makes more sense. The fact that owners are going up to 6+ months without refueling or spending less than a grand on fuel (annually) is huge.
How much does the electricity to charge it run them? Cheaper than gas?
Old 09-11-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AZuser
I think those sales #s are better than Honda Insight or CR-Z or Civic hybrid sales
Do you know why their sales suck?

Honda makes all of those in Japan and sells them at a loss thanks to the dollar/yen exchange rate. My wife and I waited MONTHS to get a CR-Z EX. And the materials, features and tech involved were easily more than the $22,000 we paid.

Honda doesn't promote or encourage these models in the US at all for a reason. Now if they start building them in Indiana or Ohio...
Old 09-11-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
The REAL question is, how many Volt sales will it take to break even?

No fudging of numbers. Removing subsidies etc.
the OP article says 120,000 but i dunno what costs they put into it, whether it was just R&D or did they include plant costs or what not.

But there's also the fact that cadillac is releasing their version of the volt, ELR hybrid or something like that. Expect other GM cars to use the same tech. Which means its not only the volt that needs to split the costs.
Old 09-11-2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TommySalami
How much does the electricity to charge it run them? Cheaper than gas?
How much is a kWH for you?

For me it's dirt cheap, about $85 for 1,000 per month.


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