canadiandude

Worth reading....any comments?

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/...73-85663f8cc933

agranado

dead link.. good one! Try again.

Whiskers

He is saying that the future of Acura is dead, just like the link.... Acura...

MSZ

Try this one:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...3-85663f8cc933

aaronnn

well.. once my second gen TL dies.. im also gonna leave acura. i dont like the new look of the TL at all. the TSX is just too small and weak compared to the rest in its class and the RL is just a slightly better looking, refined, and pricier version of the TL.

but then again i was never a fan of any other brands that sells sporty sedans. i dont know. im starting to become really disappointed with acura. front wheel drive (3 sh-awd, that doesnt really matter to me), no cars over 300hp, no real halo car, nothing to really get people into it.

what happened? the legend, integra, nsx.. what a legendary lineup.

until acura comes up with a 350Z/G35C killer, come up with better ways to sell the RL, and sell different models of the same car, theyre not gonna do too well at all.

and the biggest joke of all: canada's CSX!!

on the other hand, Honda.. S2000, civic si (car of the year), accord (facelift looks beautiful on both coupe and sedan), ridgeline (truck of the year), pilot (same thing as an mdx but tons cheaper), and the new FIT! fun looking little car..

mrdeeno

i don't agree with some of the details, but the overall gist is about right.

As i've stated in the past, I think that Honda/Acura is too cocky to admit that they have lost touch with their audience, and instead they continue to build cars that Acura wants rather than cars that premium-luxury consumers want.

GreenMonster

I've always called my CLS a pimped out accord... which is what it is... and accord w/ a couple of extras...

With no coupe in the lineup. Rsx is going, cls is gone, nsx... well we're still waiting on that one too...

I think they have gone in the right direction w/ the redesigns of the TL and RL, and the TSX intro to the US was good too, but it seems that Acura always stops a little short of perfection and plays into it's conservative past...

Time for them to come out w/ some more kick ass sports cars like the s2000 and NSX... It would be nice to see a hardtop 2+2 RWD coupe priced somewhere between the two...

Donte99TL

Well they are coming out with the RDX which is a 4 cylinder turbo with sh-awd. The engine produces 240 hp with 260 torque. Car and Driver just did a two page write up on it and they said it looked to be a really cool car.

Let’s see what they do with the TL in 08. Maybe they will go to 290 to 300 hp and have the sh-awd. That should boost the sportyness of the TL.

If they don’t then they are heading for a dive. They also better send the manufacturing back to Japan. If they keep building them here in the US then we all know the quality will remain shitty.

mrdeeno

A TL with 290-300hp and SH-AWD...don't they already offer that?

They play it too safe...they currently produce mid to high-volume "sensible" cars with broad appeal, which is what Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Ford, etc. etc. etc. produce.

They need to start producing low-mid volume cars with less "sensibility", such as high powered sports coupes with polarizing, but tasteful designs, high powered sedans and SUVS, and pretty much anything that would say, "Hey, Acura is taking RISKS for once!" Like the NSX like over a decade ago, but they need to do it again and again and again, not once every 10 years.

LuvMyTSX

I think it's a little harsh, but they do have some valid points.

aaronnn

like mrdeeno said.. they already have that. its called an RL.

first of all, acura needs a bigger engine.. and soon.
then they need to have an option for the V6 or a V8. drop the price, make some more options. no more just a navi as an option because not everyone needs all the things the RL/TL comes with.

acura needs a coupe. something like the S2000, but a nice base model and a more aggressive race model (something like the Type-S models acura USED to have).

and maybe chop the top off and come up with a roadster version too. what is acura waiting for?? do they really want to be behind all the time? besides the NSX back in the early 90's they really are:
Always
Catching
Up
Rarely
Ahead

dom

Not only are those numbers wrong, they're so far off it ain't even funny.

So far YTD 2006 Acura has sold 7,163 vehicles in Canada. YTD 2005 8,475. Lexus in the same time frame has sold 4,582 and 3,909. Now I'm not suggesting Acura is superior to Lexus by any means. Obviously the EL/CSX plays a huge part in these sales figures. But I'm just trying to figure out where this guy got his numbers. Acura handily outsells Lexus in Canada year after year.

mrdeeno

Sitting around reading my C&D, Motortrend, and Automobile magazines (they always come on the same day every month), and also realized something else.

I'm reading about all the new engine technology by OTHER automakers. For example, MB's AMG engines are getting larger displacements (old tech), but with new tech advances and 7-speed trannies. BMW's previous M3 engine, the current M5/6 engine. Toy/Lex, Audi, Porsche, etc. etc. etc. Even the Mazda CX-7 uses turbocharging AND direct-injection, a relatively new technology. Not to mention all the other advances such as 6 or 7 speed auto trannies, clutchless trannies, etc.

These "little" advances over time for each makes for an overall large advance in the long run. It seems that a lot of makes are introducing all "new" engines every several years.

As for Honda/Acura, they seem content to stick with what works. They continue to use their V6 engine in everything that needs a V6, just with minor displacement modifications. Their i4's have gotten some new technology, such as i-vtec, but that was more or less playing catch-up since a lot of other makes already a version of "intelligent" valve timing when this came around.

I think the last REAL technological advance for Honda was the S2000, and prior to that the NSX.

But as of late, as great as their engines are, they seem to be complacent and using it for everything. This "complacency", coupled with their seemingly "cocky" behavior of "People will buy it because it's a Honda/Acura" (doesn't some of their commercials say that..."Above all else, it's a Honda"?) reminds me of another automaker, one that rather than keep up advancement of technologies, depended on their good 'ole pushrod engines, one that got complacent and saw no threat from foreign automakers...GM. Not that the situations are exactly the same, but there are some damn interesting similarities.

LuvMyTSX

Well, let's hope they're working on a lot of new stuff and are just being tight-lipped about it. I'd hate to see the brand go downhill. I've had my first Acura for a year now, and I don't want it to be my last.

mrdeeno

Well, didn't the big guy up top retire and get replaced recently? And didn't Colliver just retire or something?

I see those as potential signs that Honda/Acura "could" break from tradition...we'll see. I'd like to buy a Honda or Acura again in the future, but because they have a car(s) that are appealing, not out of pity...which appears to be what the domestics have been resorting to lately ("oh pleez buy our cars so we can keep feeding our workers, even the ones that sit around and do nothing !")

dozorca

This is how I would like to see Acura align its cars:

TSX = BMW3/AudiA4/LexusIS
Coupe+Sedan, 2.3L Turbo4 and/or 3.0-3.2L V6

TL = Inifinti M35/GS350
3.5L V6

RL = A6/BMW5
3.5L V6 and 4.5L V8

XL (hehehe) = LS/A8/7
5L V10

youngTL

I had a hard time finding an Acura that fit my price and specifications I wanted. But I ended up with a 6MT Accord and could not be happier with it. Honda is VERY much on the right track. Acura just needs some more time to revamp itself. It's happening, just not as fast as we'd like it.

I'd pick Nissan/Infiniti ANYDAY over Lexus/Toyota. Those cars have NO soul. Even the new IS feels numb for an alledged "sport" sedan. Sure it's fast, but I don't care if I can't feel fuck all.

And I tested the new Camry out just recently. I drove both an XLE V6 and an SE 5MT. The SE was better, but it still felt floaty and numb to me. It can't match the Accord's eagerness to rev either.

Ken1997TL

Honda has several engines on the way.. an all-new direct injection 4 cylinder, possibly a new DOHC DI V-6 and 4/6 cylinder diesels..

We're basically waiting on Honda to release the 8th generation Accord (Model Year 2008) and its platform.

F23A4

Interesting perspective. I tend to agree; although I do not find the F20C to be any thing special aside from peak horsepower. But the K series was a significant development.

In some respects, Nissan/Infiniti's VQ35DE is in the same boat as Honda/Acura when it comes to the "innovation" of their motors...and maybe less so. The VQ35DE (at least, stateside) is effectively an enhanced version of the VQ30DE that debuted in the 1995 Nissan Maxima. While displacement and CVVT have 'advanced' the VQ (not to mention Nissan's reorientation of that motor to accomadate the FM platform's RWD layout), I think it is time for it to be updated with DI and a iVTEC style variable valve system (rather than just cam phasing).

IMHO, Acura has fallen behind in engine development and this article is right on the money. However, Acura is not that far behind and still can leapfrog back to the top provided the work earnestly to distinguish the brand from its capable but downmarket Honda roots.

IMHO:

TSX - incorporate the RDX's powertrain
TL - incorporate the RL's powertrain
CL - develop a TL based coupe with the same equipment
RL - develop that V8 (with an optional IMA and VCM)
XX - establish a new flagship sedan to go after the LS and Q (<--- before Infiniti develops the 4G)
RDX & 2G MDX - look good to go, from what I have seen at the NY Auto Show

Ken1997TL

Well the J series is going the way of the dodo soon. Maybe we'll see DOHC V6's as a new Honda standard?

mrdeeno

yes, but with all these developments, they are essentially catching up with other automakers, they have not been the first to innovate and incorporate these technologies like they did with vtec.

The last major technology that they were first to market with was hybrids. but then shortly after they let toyota steal the hybrid show.

mrdeeno

uh, wouldn't that mean the TL and RL are in the same class, considering the M35/45 and GS350/430 are direct competitors to the A6 and 5, not to mention E-class?

Ken1997TL

Quite true. I'm not sure why they didnt come out with some of these things earlier. I know Honda has direct injection engines available in Japan right now.. but not here

GreenMonster

I never understood why the honda gets the redesign platform/new engines first and Acura (the luxury brand) gets the redesign latter...

I know the hondas (like the accord) sell more units, but I always thought it cheapened the brand. Example: The 2G CL, the luxury offering, is based on the prior gen Accord. 98 Accord comes out, and then the 2001 CL based on that platform....

H/A sometimes seems to use the trickle up process instread of the trickle down...

I think that it would be more benificial to release the luxury offering first (engine/platfom, etc), regardless of what the design process is for the bread and butter money maker (accord).

I'm sure the reasoning is purely economic, but from a marketing standpoint it sucks IMHO

mrdeeno

^^ I think that's an indicaiton of how important (or not) the Acura brand is to the corporation. They DID give us the RL, which has a lot of technological firsts for an Acura instead of a Honda...but then again it's a rebadged Honda from the world market anyway, so that was just coincidence.

that's also why they have such an overlap problem with models between Honda and Acura, a problem that other automakers try to avoid.

dom

I think, at least I hope Acura/Honda is finally getting the picture that what they've been doing isn't good enough. Unfotunately they've been horribly slow to react or see the problem in the first place. (I'm still not convinced they know there's a problem)

This site alone is IMO has enough evidence to suggest that their not on the right track. The amount of members mving to other makes from CL/TL's and now TSX's is IMO alarming.

Infamous425

back when i first joined this forum i used to love acura and always wanted one. as the years go by the love fades away and i realize there are other cars out there i'd rather buy

Ken1997TL

Part of the problem is this.. the new leadership at the top of Honda and Acura has only been around what? 2 years or so? I'm specifically referring to CEO Fukui. The changes he has made wont become apparent for another year or two. Some have been revealed (V-8's and V-10's, diesels coming to the US and the NSX replacement). Others are still secret...

mrdeeno

Agreed...when i got my CL-S in 2000, it was a great car for its segment at the time and a great stepping stone.

I was hoping for it to be a stepping stone into the RL eventually, even with the bad dealership experience I had...but only if the RL was worth moving into to stay with Acura.

At around 2003, the TL was introduced and was a pretty major "evolution" from the previous model. This was also when I heard rumors of a RWD V8 RL. Seeing how the TL evolved from one generation to the next, I think many people expected the RL to be a MAJOR revolution that would blow everyone away...especially since it was 10 years in the works. I heard talks of V8 AWD with hybrid motors driving the front wheels, nightvision, etc. etc. etc. They freakin' had 10 years to do develop an all new platform and engine, not to mention techno-gadgets and whatnot.

I don't know about everyone else, but I was expecting a groundbreaking RL, but instead was underwhelmed by the "sensible" RL that they gave us.

canadiandude

Great points.

I bought my firsts Acura as a used 1993 Integra. I loved it--drove like it should have cost double. My next car was a 2002 RSX---solid, but never liked it as much as my Integra. 9 months ago, I got a 2005 TL---solid, capable, techno-loaded. BUT there are serious quality issues with it--more than there should be for the price.

I think this parallels Acura as a brand. It started out of the gate as a real contender in the Japanese-Luxury market--surpassed Infinity early on for certain. In the last 5 years, however, the engines and designs have been uninspired and the quality has fallen.

With the dropping of NSX and RSX and too much pimping from Honda, this brand has fallen behind Lexus and Infinity now. It seems the gap is only widening.

Acura seems more like a Pontiac-themed brand--well priced and tries to market itself as "built for drivers"

vishnus11

I'm not trying to say that Acura is the "best luxury brand ever" or whathave you, but seriously, its kinda getting old to read some bullshit like this and comments like "designs have been uninspired" and "Pontiac-themed"? wtf?

Acura has had its ups and downs - I'd say the late 90's weren't the best time for Acura. But back to the present - the TL is the best selling luxury sedan in the country. Yeah it has its downfalls, torque steer and what not, but nothings perfect and its a smashing deal in its segment.

The TSX is growing in sales each month as people find out more about it. It's been on C&D's Best 10 for a couple of years, and the reviewers (and the owners) say its fun to drive and love it. Yeah, lately the GLI has stolen some of its limelight, but I'm sure it'll once again rise to the top of the heap when its refreshed/redesigned.

The RL isn't selling well. Doesn't mean its a bad sedan. Everyone has their own "RL sales theory" but bottomline is that it didn't perform as well as Acura had hoped in the marketplace. I'm sure some kind of refresh/redesign is in the horizon that will remedy the problem. Heck it took them 2 tries to get the "formula" for the TL right - the Vigor and the 1st gen TL - both we're fine cars (I own a 1st gen) but for some reason or the other they didn't sell AS well as hoped in the marketplace.

The MDX has been a hot selling SUV for quite a damn while now, and was Motortrend SUV of the year when introduced. Its still a very competitive SUV in today's marketplace and is due for a redesign that will only make it better.

THe recently introduced RDX - at least according to early reviews - will dominate an X3 in many if not all respects, and boast's Acura's first turbocharged engine. I'm sure it'll be the most competitive SUV in its segment.

Yeah, the RSX and NSX have taken a little hiatus. But both wll be back in full furor soon: the new NSX is due with a V10 in 09 and the RSX will probably be reborn in '09 as a TSX coupe.

And thus ends by defense for Acura. Sure they haven't been the perfect comapny - like someone said, they had 10years to perfect the RL and didn't quite deliver on the "excitement" or "attitude" part of the equation. But Acura is by no means "heading towards downfall" or going down the crapper. If anything they're getting better and better and I'm sure we'll see many more exciting and even better products from them in the future.

EDIT: as Dom pointed out, the article itself isn't very credible as it misquotes both Acura and Lexus sales in Canada.

cambo

i heard the TL exterior that was orignally slated to become the 3G TL was designed in Japan, but scrapped last minute before production for the US designed TL exterior that we see today. The Japan-designed TL exterior that was scrapped evolved into the RL exterior we have now. There was a US designed RL exterior, but top-level execs choose the japanese designed RL exterior.

If this is true, I'd think the US-design team for acura (based in california?) has figured out what americans want to look at in a car.

canadiandude

I guess some of us are just trying to protect our jobs.(wink to Vishnus11)

The fact remains--Acuras are almost all based on the platforms of other Hondas--Just like the Buicks/Chev/Pontiacs of the late 80s and 90s. BORING.

My premium car dollars will find a new company. Bye.

dom

They'll be a correction posted in Friday's edition.

They claim typo. Clearly not a typo when they made a point of claiming Lexus sells more cars.

Infamous425

bottom line is that Acura is making cars for the avg people while we, forum members, want them to make cars for enthusiasts

mrdeeno

I don't think Honda's platform sharing is a problem in itself...it's more that the platform that is being shared is based on a FWD high volume family sedan. they CAN still differentiate the cars significantly through design and equipment level, and they do to a point, but they still keep to their corporate image of being "sensible" more than anything else...their car designs and engineering are more choice than platform limitations. They CAN choose to give the RL more aggressive styling. They CAN choose to give it better looking rims, tires, and equipment. They CAN choose to pick new rims for the Accord 17 inchers rather than use up their leftover stock of last gen TL/CL type-S rims (it's the same 17" rim, just with different centercaps ).


Nissan's FM platform is shared with the G, M, FX and also the Nissan Z...all the cars CAN and ARE differentiated, but they all share the same "BASICS"...ie they are all RWD based cars. But the designs vary widely from the AWD FX to the Z to the M and G. But then again, Nissan just CHOOSES to design and engineer their cars this way. Imagine all the bitching and moaning if Nissan had used the Altima's FWD platform for every Infiniti instead, and they actually TRIED to keep all their designs conservative like Honda does.

All the reasons why Acura's image is getting "stagnant" is due mostly to CHOICES they made, not any real limitations or obstacles.

mrdeeno

And they should realize that this is EXACTLY what their problem is...

Honda/Toy/Niss/Hyun/Ford/Chry/Chevy/etc.... are making cars for the average people.

Acura should be in the business of making cars for PREMIUM buyers if it wants to earn its PREMIUM image.

Sub-$35k vehicles with broad appeal is great for sales and all but eventually they'll be competing with Honda.

youngTL

What's wrong with the Accord's rims? I really like the way mine look and I'm having a hard time deciding what I want to do for winter rims. The stock rims are very nice IMO. The fact they were the Type-S rims means NOTHING to me or most people that see them. 99% of people don't even know unless both cars are side by side. And even then, they still look nice in their own right.

mrdeeno

The discussion was differentiation of individual models on the same platform, and some automakers differentiate their cars more than others by choice.

there's nothing inherently wrong with the rims or the way they look...but the fact that many of US can recognize that these are "hand-me-downs" from the tl/cl-s, and to put it on a NEW generation accord goes to show how Honda/Acura is compromising on design by going with "older generation" rims rather than picking out a new "unused" OEM design....basically they're just getting rid of old inventory to save costs and this is an example of not "differentiating" the models by choice, not by engineering limits or obstacles.

dom

They are nice wheels and they look great on the Accord Coupe. But it is kinda strange IMO that the same wheels that were found on 02/03 models are now on 06 models. Having said that only a enthusiast would mind or notice these things anyway.