6spd FTW

 

While this will go a long way in helping to match engine speed to wheel speed, it does nothing for matching input shaft speed to lay shaft speed. In other words, it does not help synchronizers. This is why you must engage the clutch some at the same time you blip the throttle on a downshift so that the shaft speeds can be matched.

 

I drive a manual now and love it. I would love it a bit more if the car had torque, which I think would make driving in heavy traffic a bit easier (I could be wrong).

I'm not sure yet if my next car will be auto or manual.

 

You are very smart, now I gotta find out if it rev matches in nuetral

If it does, then why bother, just turn it off. Double clutching is something I always do on 3-2 and 2-1 shifts. Tsx dbw is the worst!

 

Finding MT in some cars is hard. I was lucky even to find my Element in MT, wouldn't have bought it if it was AT. Just had to fly to NY and drive it back.

 

The fiancee and I own two cars, both with manual transmissions, both 6 speeds. The next car we have agreed upon will also be a manual transmission.

I have had a couple of manuals before, but they always bored me to tears so manual is really the only choice for me and I refuse to get anything other than a manual from now on.

 

Thank you for the kind words though when it comes to cars, I tend to think of myself more along the lines of a conscientious enthusiast. Driving is a passion of mine, especially with interesting machines.

I would be of a mind to do what you said: turn it off and do it myself. I don't care for cars doing things for me, outside of my control. Not everything - ABS, EBS, VSA, traction control are all good things. But there are some things I want to be able to take a decision as to how and when they will be used and/or activated.

It's good that you double clutch on your down shifts. You'd be amazed at how many people will tell you that doing this is not necessary with modern transmissions. Either they don't understand how a manual transmission and clutch assembly work, or they just never master this skill and are making excuses for their lack of ability. There is never any shame in saying you don't know or that you would like to learn how to do that.

Take care.

 

Well my car search isnt going so hot. I really want a 03-07 accord coupe 4 cyl manual and it hardly exists. On a recent auto trader search i found 289 accord coupes and only 6 were manual. Wow. Of the ones i found, 2 were salvaged and the others were really high mileage, black or red exterior, etc. Im starting to look at private sellers too on craigslist and autotrader. Ive called all of the local honda dealers too and left them my info and still no one calls me back. Where else can i look?

 

yea, the G's clutch is a very difficult one to master/get used to... at least comin from a honda lol

my dad said the same thing when he drives my G35... hes driven stick his whole life but back in the day with much weaker cars, he was shocked he didn't have to downshift all the time because the car really takes alot to 'boggle' the engine

 

I've driven a M/T G... tons of power. I love the Vette where you can start in 3rd and still go...

 

i want a manual car.....

 

I do, I was lucky to find a 6MT TSX.

 

Yes. So far my commute hasn't turned me back onto automatics

 

What exactly is double clutching and why is it important when downshifting?

Honestly, you can try eBay. That is where I bought my Element. Just make sure the seller is very reputable.

 

i will have another hopefully on saturday

 

What did you decide?

 

2002 yellow boxster s with 51k miles for 17k, i think it has full leather, it has zenon, painted rollbar, newish tires and is in perfect shape. hope the ppi goes well on friday

 

Nice. Good luck, hope it works out.

 

Double clutching is an action whereby the operator matches engine speed to wheel speed and transmission input shaft speed to lay shaft speed in the chosen lower gear for the downshift for the purpose of significantly reducing clutch component and synchronizer wear.

If the manner in which you downshift resembles this;

o Remove foot from throttle.
o Shift to the chosen lower gear.
o Begin to ease the clutch out.

You are downshifting incorrectly. Your clutch and your synchronizes will experience substantially less life. Along with this, if you hold your car on a hill with the clutch instead of the break, you are really doing bad things to your clutch.

How to double clutch for a downshift.

o Remove foot from throttle.
o Begin your shift to the lower gear.
o As you enter the neutral gate, pause for a moment and blip the throttle to raise engine while at the same time engaging the clutch.
o Depress the clutch and complete your shift.
o Let the clutch out.

If this is all done correctly, it will be seemless, smooth and virtually unnoticeable by a passenger.

If you need further explanation, please feel free to ask.

 

thats rev matching.....i thought double clutch and rev match were two different things....

 

Always thought Double clutching saves your syncros and Rev Matching saves your clutch.

A lot of people also say that Double clutching is useless in modern MT cars because modern syncros are much more advanced than older syncros.

My buddy who works as a technician for Nissan says that modern syncros should last 200k miles easy even if slightly abused.

Also thought that to correctly double clutch you're supposed to clutch in, shift to neutral, let the clutch out in neutral, rev match, than clutch in and complete shift?

 

me too.

 

No, what I describe is double clutching. Rev matching leaves off the step where you engage the clutch in the neutral gate while at the same time rev matching (blipping the throttle). When rev matching, you're half way there. Double clutching completes the picture.

 

Rev matching reduces wear on the clutch components. Double clutching does that and reduces wear on synchronizers.

"A lot of people also say that Double clutching is useless in modern MT cars because modern syncros are much more advanced than older syncros."

I hear this argument a lot, but it's just patently false. It's false because when you do not double clutch the synchronizers, which act like little clutches in the gear case, have to match the speed of the input and lay shafts. This means they have to overcome mass and inertia and they are usually made of brass. As for your Nissan technician buddy saying that "modern syncros should last 200k miles easy even if slightly abused", they very well may. But if you knew of a way and better yet, learned a way in which to reduce wear on your synchronizers, wouldn't you want to do that in order to get even more life out of them and therefore save money? Why would you not wish to do this?

"Also thought that to correctly double clutch you're supposed to clutch in, shift to neutral, let the clutch out in neutral, rev match, than clutch in and complete shift?"

Go back and read what I wrote and you'll see that it is nearly identical to what you have described above.

Finally, as far as the synchronizers in the TL manual transmission being better than those in some older transmissions, try comparing them to those installed in a Muncie M20 thru M22 of the mid 60's. I would put my money on the Muncie.


Gentlemen, it's your car and you should do as you see fit and what you like. I am simply offering an answer to someone who asked what double clutching was. I know it works and I also know it is the only correct manner in which do downshift a manual transmission. True, there are other ways to do this, but there is really only one correct way and by this I mean a way in which the least amount of wear and potential damage might be visited upon your equipment. But do as y'all see fit.

 

Guiltey for most of these behaviors. Sounds like I may need to re-learn a little bit about my MT. I think with a little bit of practice the double clutching will make more sense to me.

 

I just don't understand the point of MT any more. Why make a car more work than it needs to be? I can understand on a track car but on an every day commuter car? In the old days there was the logic behind getting better miles per gallon and it being more efficient however both of those points are mute with modern systems.

Time to bring back the rotary phone, dials on TVs, and manual typewriters while we are at it. No not for the sake of them being any better, just for the sake of saying you do it.

 

then you have no clue

 

Bad, bad analogy. I would buy a manual transmission car even if it were slower, more expensive and not as fuel efficient. Its still way more fun otherwise. So much more fun to the point that I will never buy a car without a manual transmission.

I don't think anyone buys a manual transmission car because its old school. People do have their reasons though, so who knows. Maybe someone buys rotary phones only because its what they're used to. I'm already used to both automatics and manuals, its just that I don't see the point of the other.

If I lived in an area with unbearably bad traffic, then I would move.

 

Simple, poeple are too lazy. It takes no effort to learn and drive AT. MT takes time and practice......but it's so much more fun to drive. Why else would someone drive a MT Element?

 

The word you're looking for is "moot"

Better MPG and efficiency are, or were, just two among many other reasons to prefer manual.

Aside from the immediate physical satisfaction from engaging the clutch and throwing the stick to and from gears, you get much more isntant gratification. You can choose the RPMs (which determines how much power the engine is puting out) prior to a hard acceleration whereas with an automatic the car will not downshift for the additional power until a few moments after you mash the gas.

It's hard for me to truely believe that automatics and their associated lag can be sporty because the transmission makes you wait for it to catch up, and I associate that delay with relaxed lazy driving, not hard agressive driving. Imagine you're playing a sport, and at the moment you decide to swing a ball or swing the bat you have to wait a second for anything to happen. You might still win if you're playing in the special olympics but you won't have a lot of fun doing it.

I've never driven a car with turbo but I hear it has a delay also and that doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

 

Some people say that the near-instant response of the VW DSG fixes that. Faster? Sure. More fun? Debatable. Either you get it or you don't, like strong cheese, tequila slammers, and raw garlic.

For what it's worth I drive stick in real life, but when I'm chasing someone down online in Live for Speed I have to use the flappy paddles on my G25 wheel.

 

Not a flame or an insult sir, but I suspect you're not an enthusiast or a gearhead. Certainly your choice however, try to understand that there are a bunch of people out there who cannot imagine driving an automatic for their own personal driving machine. I fit that mold.

 

Boy, it looking over what I wrote in my double clutching description, I see a few typos. Believe me, I know the difference between "break" and "brake". Sorry gentlemen.

 

DSG still isn't as raw as manual, you don't get that feeling of connecting the wheels up with the power plant, but I have much more respect for it than standard automatic. It does what a manual does only much faster.

I won't resist it too much when the day comes that it's all that's offered. I feel like if we resist at that point then it really is like work for the sake of work. They will need to find us some new ways to make driving more interesting. Add wings maybe.

 

I think I am getting my 1st 6mt next week. Been wanting a manual transmission for a while now.

 

I believe the difference is in the wording. IMO, the argument should not be over whether double clutching is "useless" so much as "unnecessary".

There's no doubt that double clutching decreases wear on synchros, so in that respect I agree that the process is useful with regards to maximizing the life of your transmission. However, if modern synchros can last longer than the amount of time I plan to keep my car (i.e. 200k miles), what's the point? Assuming you don't abuse your car, I don't see much incentive in choosing a slightly more complex process if the end result is the same other than a level of pride knowing that you are being as efficient as possible.

Further to the point on complexity, when I go on spirited drives on backroads, I only rev-match my downshifts because I find that double clutching your downshifts takes too much time. Before anyone says anything, I do know how to double clutch properly, and even if it does come instinctually it's tough to argue that the process itself takes slightly longer to perform than a simple rev-matched downshift.

All that said, I am playing devil's advocate because I do double clutch regularly, but only when I'm driving around leisurely and not interested in driving under control as quickly as possible.



Lemme guess...you don't know how to drive a manual .

Beyond all of the points regarding instant gratification and driver sensation already mentioned, I feel that driving a manual provides a level of control that you simply can't get with a standard automatic (excluding DSG/SMGs from this discussion). Being able to specifically choose to be in any gear at any time makes me feel much safer than having a system force me to use a gear based on a given RPM and speed.

In addition, if you know when and how to downshift properly (i.e. use the engine to brake), driving in a manual car can actually be smoother than an automatic, not to mention save you $$$ on brake pad/rotor replacements over the life of your car.

 

Foot off clutch while blipping throttle in neutral

My tsx first gear synchro is trashed, the car is designed not to downshift w/o double clutch above something like 5 mph, and I think me and other people forced the issue...

I'm double clutching all the time on 2-1 and 3-2. Mostly on the 3-2 you are standing on the brakes anyway, so you got plenty of time to set up the car and gearbox.

 

I've never had the chance.

My parents always bought AT's because my mom could never drive stick and my RL never came in a MT. And somehow all my friends drive AT's as well so I've never been able to borrow someone's car and just try it out. I want to get a Cooper S at the end of the year and I'm thinking over the whole AT vs MT dilemma right now. How hard is the learning curve?

 

 

It's not bad. If you have a beater dirt bike, or a friend who does, get on it and let loose. It will make it easier to understand the concept of how to properly engage/disengage the clutch. It did for me anyway back in my younger years...

Oh, instaed of thinking of the clutch as an on/off switch, picture it functioning as a throttle pedal would.