Nashua_Night_Hawk

Acura and Honda are all about, Performance, Quality and Value for your dollars.

Do you think Acura will ever make a true M3 Competitor?

M5 Lite

I don't think Acura has to worry about the M3. They are two completely different cars. Acura should worry about Infiniti and Lexus. People who buy Japanese, buy Japanese.

Let Mercedes and Audi look for a response to the M3. People who buy German, buy German.

Just my .02.

Infamuz

Thats true but unfortunately all these Japanes manufactures are competing against Mercedes and BMW. GS vs E class vs 5 series. TL vs ES300 vs I35 vs 3 series.

Fabvsix

They do......it's called an N S X ! How much is the M3......70K, what is the price of the N S X ......84K.............

Nashua_Night_Hawk

M3 is aound $50k, NSX is around $90k, huge difference.

scalbert

Not to mention the NSX is lacking a rear seat that the M3 has,

cakennedy

Acura makes great cars, but it would take a pretty fundamental shift in corporate philosophy to produce an M3-fighter. Right now, Acura chooses not to compete even with the three-series. The TL is a great car and a terrific bargain (I used to have one), but it doesn't really compete with the 3er like the IS300 does.

So without a small RWD platform, and with no indications that one is in development, I don't think we'll see a small, fast road car in the M3's league from Acura soon.

astro

I think you're wrong...I have 2 german cars, I have had 2 japanese cars in succession and many more in the past, I have an American truck that I love quite a bit too....

M5 Lite

Astro you don't count. Your different.

I wanna be like __________.

BakedWafer

NSX

BarryH

From a marketing perspective, Acura's strategy is kind of hard to predict. The NSX is clearly a "statement" about performance and engineering as it's been a failure from a sales perspective. Yet, they've announced an even more powerful replacement for 2004. The Type S program is clearly aimed at bolstering the performance image of the mainstream Acura line. The RD-X is from another planet and is hard to use as a predictor of the future. I guess the biggest indicator will be the release of the RL as it will be the new Acura mainstream flagship. My guess is that Acura is going to try to move more upscale to compete with BMW and M-B who are both moving downstream to bolster sales. I think the standard Acura models will become more "Germanic" in performance and content and the "Type S" line will become even more performance oriented but not quite to the level of the M and AMG cars. My guess anyway.

IntegraVT

iTrader: (1)

Although nowhere near an M3, an RSX-R perhaps?

Hmph, a 3.5CL Type-R, now there's an idea....

Chrisbert

Momma Like! Momma Like!

KP117

CL 3.2 type-r.... Nope; RSX type R Nah

Both are fwd. Car companies don’t make RWD performance cars to put on the features list of the window sticker. It makes a difference in the cars performance. Until a RWD platform is introduced Acura will never have an M3 fighter. But Nissan has come to save face for all of Japan with a credible candidate (350z) Maybe the turbo charged edition coming in 04 can knock off the M3

monkeymato

I highly doubt they will. I know Acura is changing its color from red to blue. Red is racing they say and blue is luxuary. I know Miami Acura changed their huge Acura sign to blue from red. So I doubt they will.

CL-Super

N.S.X. in my opinion is another class from an M3...the only way Acura can compete w/ an M3 is to get an all wheel drive supercharged Type S that is about 2 feet shorter in overal length

nt5k

I don't think Acura has the needed clout or prestige to come out with a CL Type R or whatever. If it wants respect it need to take the CL, soup the crap out of it and enter the ALMS (american le mans series) and beat or at least place well against the M3 in the GT class. the only reason the M3 is so huge now is because when the E30 M3 was introduced to racing, it beat the hell out of everything in its path. most of the M legend is being controlled by the marketing at BMW now but none the less they are still churning out great cars.

if acura doesn't race first and just come out with a Type R, it will have very limited appeal limited to the people on this board, and a subsection of those people to boot. but if does good in motorsports it will garner more respect..

1SICKLEX

M3's only true competition is the S4, AMG C32 to a lesser extent. Notice the overall LENGTH of these cars.
Notice they are AT LEAST RWD.
NOTICE the engines (VANOS,bi-turbo but the new S4 will have a V-8, V-6 supercharged)

Those are just the BASICS.

Honda/Acura makes some if not the best FWD sporty cars but if it's not RWD with a manual, it really can't be taken too serious.

acura_service

NO

moforose3.0

I dont think there is anyway acura is going to compete with the new m3's, atleast not anytime soon. With 333HP and 0-60 in 4.7 seconds the bmw will be hard to beat, thats faster than a vette. I love my car, but theres no way acura can compete with that anytime soon.

Red Nj-s

I am preety sure Acura will not build an M3 equivalent, but if they did it would only help the division. Think about a CL-S with 350 hp and AWD. The whole image of the company would raise in buyers minds.

nt5k

ok this has been bothering me for a while.. what the hell do you need over 300 hp for? the last M3 had 240. and even that is alot. sure we have 260 now but how many of you can honestly say you can use that power to the fullest, (no drag racing doesnt count) the whole hp thing is turning into some stupid pissing contest where more and more companies and individuals are compromising the rest of the car by putting in bigger engines and more power.. i really hope the next S4 doesnt keep it going by going over 333. companies need to make cars with excellent control before they even think about turning up the power..

SiGGy

The fact you would even consider comparing the cars is rediculous.

The M3 Loaded is about $60,000 (convertible)
The CLS loaded is about $35,000

M3
333hp
RWD
near 50/50 weight distrobution
Straight 6
Real wood, soft leather, awesome fit and finish

CL-S
260hp
FWD
63/37 (front/rear)
V6
fake wood, ok leather, ok fit and finish (rattles)

And we could continue and compare suspensions, weight transfer, and braking systems. But theres no need. The cars are not comparable.

BMW offsets the car battery in the trunk on the passenger side! WHY? to offset the weight of the driver. You just don't get that type of refinement with many automakers! (especially for 30k)

1SICKLEX

nt5k, yeah the whole horsepower war thing is to me........

Just build a BETTER car and they will come......no matter what auto manufacter you are.

Nashua_Night_Hawk

What is wrong with having a 350 HP, AWD, with 50/50 balanced weight.

What if the IMA system can add 50 HP to the rear wheels when needed and such system would balance the weight to 50/50.

Hopefull,y the weight wont increase by more than 200 lbs.

Add better brakes and tires and the CLS is good to go.

EricL

The idea seems to be nice, but you would want the recovery of stored energy to happen through the electric motors being on the front wheels (check out the weight transfer under braking).

I would think motors would go up front (with a RWD), long before going to a front engine with motors in the back.

There is also that nasty issue of energy storage mechanisms: the current bunch (batteries, flywheels, etc) are rather heavy for anything requiring sustained power output

nt5k

what kind of brakes would you need to stop such a thing? by lowering the weight of the vehicle you wouldn't need as much power. thus saving fuel, and having a car with better handling dynamics.. people always talk about hp/liter, no one seems to mention hp/lbs.. but can you imagine the marketing for that?

"The all new Acura CL Type S With 13.65 pounds per horse"

EricL

To match an M3... How about some Brembos with cool air ducting? In fact, Kevin M's car (now under new ownership) had a set of air ducts added to assist the Brembos for track duty. (The M3 brakes are good to go from the factory.)

You also raise a great point about "specs"...

Although it would probably be "better" and more informative to rate a car's acceleration (at lower speeds) by its power-to-weight, most people love spouting off HP, Torque, CD, and other figures that mean little with out the "bigger picture". (HP and Torque need to be looked at in terms of weight and gearing and CD is pretty meaningless without the car's frontal area...) I have encountered a ton of car groupies that “judged” the car’s performance by a look at the top speed on the speedo and by the famous, “How much HP do you have in this thing… Man, it must be faaaast…”

They had one of those "Police Pursuits" (on last week) with some 15-year old doing 150+ in an M3 down the freeway/highway with LT1 equipped cops in pursuit. One of the cops looked like he was getting all puffed-up when he talked about the 350HP (chipped LT1) output being what is required for nailing speeders (comments by “Mr. Cops” about the M3 (with its 240 hp) being no match for the powerful cop-boat). Most people don't realize that power-to-weight becomes a much smaller issue when talking about top speeds. (BTW -- I know what car I would prefer to be in at 150 just based on that chunk of film alone and it’s the one with the lower HP!)

I mentioned the previous paragraph since the current CLS seems to have a fair amount of lift at 120+ (sure, the rear spoiler will keep the rear down, but...)

Finally, the issue of weight does become important with limited funds and with large SUVs ranging the "plains". While crush zones and air bags are nice and a strong roll cage is great, there is nothing like being in the heavier car in a head-on, side impact, or rear ender... I don’t think a 2000lb super car will fair too well when rear-ended by a 3-ton SUV doing 50 MPH (and forget about the “I’ll maneuver out of the way argument”; there is not much one can do when some moron with no brakes drives up your ass)

nt5k

yeah i hear what your saying man. i guess its just a glutton world we live in.. and once you add the 5-foot-lady-in-an-excursion-by-herself-while-on-the-phone-and-drinking-coffee factor its a wonder we all dont have armor plating on out rides.. im not proposing that we build 2000 lb super fast cars for the masses but put a handle on this weight gain a bit and start building well-rounded cars instead of all-power/no control or all-control/no-power.

Red Nj-s

This is preety funny to read. Most of you guys are being way to idealistic. HEY, why dont they make them light, powerfull, and easy to controll why being safe. Why? Cuz that costs way too much. They have to make compromises...its a business. For the people who do undertsand i am sorry.