Do you really save money ditching gas-guzzlers?
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Do you really save money ditching gas-guzzlers?
Gerry Malloy
Jul 26, 2008
History, it seems, does repeat itself. What's happening in the auto industry today closely parallels what happened during the first oil crisis in 1973.
The precipitating factors then were a gasoline supply shortage accompanied by unprecedented high prices. Today, there is no lack of supply at the retail level – at least not yet – but increasing demand by developing economies like China and India have stoked fuel prices, and an uncertain economy here at home are having a similar effect.
That effect, to put it bluntly, is panic. And that panic is being felt in auto sales and the rush of some to dump their gas-guzzlers in favour of a fuel-sipping alternative.
But does such a move make sound economic sense?
While Canadians have always been disposed to more economical vehicles than our American cousins, that predisposition has been tilted even further in recent months.
Sales of fuel-efficient vehicles are skyrocketing, while those of once-dominant pickup trucks and their big SUV siblings have tanked.
The Honda Civic has surpassed the perennially bestselling Ford F-Series pickup truck as the nation's top seller. And according to automotive analyst Dennis DesRosiers, of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants, all 10 of the bestselling cars in June were compacts or sub-compacts – for the first time ever.
DesRosiers says the sales of those vehicles might have been even higher if their supply wasn't constrained by the sudden increase in demand for them south of the border, where the switch in consumer preference has been even more dramatic than here.
Furthermore, almost every manufacturer that builds any kind of hybrid vehicle has a backlog of orders that in some cases will take months to fill – a situation exacerbated by insufficient battery supply capacity to meet the sudden surge in demand.
In a recent survey of U.S. consumers conducted by J.D. Power and Associates, fully 72 per cent of the respondents said they were "definitely" or "probably" interested in a hybrid for their next vehicle purchase. That is, until they were told that the typical price premium for a hybrid is $5,000!
Even after hearing that figure, fully 46 per cent confirmed their hybrid preference.
At the other end of the spectrum, people are abandoning gas-guzzling big SUVs and pickups. "You can't give away a large sport utility vehicle," says DesRosiers.
That is something people who already own such vehicles are quickly learning, to their chagrin. The media have been full of reports of people trying to dump their gas-guzzlers, and advice on doingso.
All of which is a clear reflection of the panic that is overwhelming rational analysis of the situation.
The fact that people are faced with a consistently increasing bill every time they visit the gas pump seems to have a far greater impact than any long-term economic consideration.
The fact is, just as it may take consumers five years – or even much more – to recoup the cost premium for purchasing some hybrids, as we discussed in an earlier column, it may not make economic sense for people to precipitously dispose of sport-utes or pickups.
Even with gasoline at $1.50 a litre, it is likely to take them a very long time to make up what they may lose in trading a gas-guzzler for something more fuel-efficient, given the current depressed prices of such large vehicles.
For example, consider someone who sells or trades in a two- or three-year-old SUV at a $5,000 lossover and above what they might expect from normal depreciation, which is probably a conservative figure. Assume that gas is $1.50 a litre and they drive the accepted average of 20,000 km a year.
Even if they reduce their average fuel consumption from 15 to 10 L/100 km, which would be a tall order if they stick with something remotely close in terms of room and utility, it would take more than three years to recoup that loss from fuel savings.
So would they be further ahead to stick with what they have?
Every situation is different, so that's a decision people have to make for themselves. In addition to pure economic factors, there are also environmental impacts you may want to consider, as well as personal needs.
The point is that such decisions are best made on the basis of sound analysis, not in a reactionary panic.
Jul 26, 2008
History, it seems, does repeat itself. What's happening in the auto industry today closely parallels what happened during the first oil crisis in 1973.
The precipitating factors then were a gasoline supply shortage accompanied by unprecedented high prices. Today, there is no lack of supply at the retail level – at least not yet – but increasing demand by developing economies like China and India have stoked fuel prices, and an uncertain economy here at home are having a similar effect.
That effect, to put it bluntly, is panic. And that panic is being felt in auto sales and the rush of some to dump their gas-guzzlers in favour of a fuel-sipping alternative.
But does such a move make sound economic sense?
While Canadians have always been disposed to more economical vehicles than our American cousins, that predisposition has been tilted even further in recent months.
Sales of fuel-efficient vehicles are skyrocketing, while those of once-dominant pickup trucks and their big SUV siblings have tanked.
The Honda Civic has surpassed the perennially bestselling Ford F-Series pickup truck as the nation's top seller. And according to automotive analyst Dennis DesRosiers, of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants, all 10 of the bestselling cars in June were compacts or sub-compacts – for the first time ever.
DesRosiers says the sales of those vehicles might have been even higher if their supply wasn't constrained by the sudden increase in demand for them south of the border, where the switch in consumer preference has been even more dramatic than here.
Furthermore, almost every manufacturer that builds any kind of hybrid vehicle has a backlog of orders that in some cases will take months to fill – a situation exacerbated by insufficient battery supply capacity to meet the sudden surge in demand.
In a recent survey of U.S. consumers conducted by J.D. Power and Associates, fully 72 per cent of the respondents said they were "definitely" or "probably" interested in a hybrid for their next vehicle purchase. That is, until they were told that the typical price premium for a hybrid is $5,000!
Even after hearing that figure, fully 46 per cent confirmed their hybrid preference.
At the other end of the spectrum, people are abandoning gas-guzzling big SUVs and pickups. "You can't give away a large sport utility vehicle," says DesRosiers.
That is something people who already own such vehicles are quickly learning, to their chagrin. The media have been full of reports of people trying to dump their gas-guzzlers, and advice on doingso.
All of which is a clear reflection of the panic that is overwhelming rational analysis of the situation.
The fact that people are faced with a consistently increasing bill every time they visit the gas pump seems to have a far greater impact than any long-term economic consideration.
The fact is, just as it may take consumers five years – or even much more – to recoup the cost premium for purchasing some hybrids, as we discussed in an earlier column, it may not make economic sense for people to precipitously dispose of sport-utes or pickups.
Even with gasoline at $1.50 a litre, it is likely to take them a very long time to make up what they may lose in trading a gas-guzzler for something more fuel-efficient, given the current depressed prices of such large vehicles.
For example, consider someone who sells or trades in a two- or three-year-old SUV at a $5,000 lossover and above what they might expect from normal depreciation, which is probably a conservative figure. Assume that gas is $1.50 a litre and they drive the accepted average of 20,000 km a year.
Even if they reduce their average fuel consumption from 15 to 10 L/100 km, which would be a tall order if they stick with something remotely close in terms of room and utility, it would take more than three years to recoup that loss from fuel savings.
So would they be further ahead to stick with what they have?
Every situation is different, so that's a decision people have to make for themselves. In addition to pure economic factors, there are also environmental impacts you may want to consider, as well as personal needs.
The point is that such decisions are best made on the basis of sound analysis, not in a reactionary panic.
#2
Fahrvergnügen'd
I see this all the time and fall victim to it subconsciously as well.
Most people drive 15-20k a year, no?
Going from a Suburban to a Honda Fit makes sense but from a 20mpg minivan to a 25mpg crossover doesn't IMO. And how many people are really going to ditch a Suburban for a Fit anyway?
Most people drive 15-20k a year, no?
Going from a Suburban to a Honda Fit makes sense but from a 20mpg minivan to a 25mpg crossover doesn't IMO. And how many people are really going to ditch a Suburban for a Fit anyway?
#3
Senior Moderator
I miss the days where people would brag about horsepower.
Now it seems people brag about MPG they are getting. Almost as if they did it to be trendy.
I never understood why people do that.
Now it seems people brag about MPG they are getting. Almost as if they did it to be trendy.
For example, consider someone who sells or trades in a two- or three-year-old SUV at a $5,000 lossover and above what they might expect from normal depreciation, which is probably a conservative figure. Assume that gas is $1.50 a litre and they drive the accepted average of 20,000 km a year.
Even if they reduce their average fuel consumption from 15 to 10 L/100 km, which would be a tall order if they stick with something remotely close in terms of room and utility, it would take more than three years to recoup that loss from fuel savings.
So would they be further ahead to stick with what they have?
Even if they reduce their average fuel consumption from 15 to 10 L/100 km, which would be a tall order if they stick with something remotely close in terms of room and utility, it would take more than three years to recoup that loss from fuel savings.
So would they be further ahead to stick with what they have?
Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 07-28-2008 at 11:27 AM.
#4
The Third Ball
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I had a full tank Sat Morning. After working two days weekend which required to drive to bumfuck locations. I pulled into the gas near my house last night with 250miles on my trip counter, and a near empty tank.
filled it up...did the math. 16.7mpg....I'm fine with that.
Buying a car with better MPG to "save" on gas would end up costing me more money considering I dont have a car payment.
filled it up...did the math. 16.7mpg....I'm fine with that.
Buying a car with better MPG to "save" on gas would end up costing me more money considering I dont have a car payment.
#6
Uses turn signals in my
A lot of people want 'RIGHT NOW' gratification, even if it does not make financial sense in the long run. I wonder how many of those people skipped out on economics in high school, I learned this stuff a long time ago.
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#9
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Originally Posted by dom
Because they don't do the math.
It makes financial sense to trade in the gas guzzler- for a used econo car of the same vintage and no cash out.
Otherwise, it's just $$$$$
#10
My first Avatar....
Originally Posted by achenator
"I sold my Durango and got this Prius I only had to finance 48k!" LOL.
#11
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by dom
Because they don't do the math.
It's counter intuitive to think that keeping a gas guzzling SUV will save you money, but with fuel efficient cars and hybrids commanding top dollar (msrp and waiting lists), the huge depreciation hit on SUVs, it sometimes makes financial to keep the SUV's...
I've thought about getting rid of my CLS for something more fuel efficient, but with just changing my driving style, I've upped my MPG by 3-4 miles per gallon. Much cheaper to just make the best with what I've already got.
There's a lot of truth to the saying "The cheapest car out there is the one already in your driveway"...
#12
Team Owner
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Too many people are quick to react and never really think things through. Good sales people can sense that a mile away. Today when you walk into a dealership with a SUV and say you are looking at saving on gas, guess what goes through their minds.
It would cost me a lot to dump my Pathfinder for something more gas friendly. I have payments under $300 on it. I would have to either get a POS or increase my payments by about $200 a month to save $50 a month on gas. The last time I took it to a dealer they offered me $4000 below book value for it and it's in great shape.
It's retarded but some consumers will be dazzled by a sales person telling them that this car will cost you only $2000 a year to go 15K miles. They don't typically tell you that all you're spending now is $2500 a year.
It would cost me a lot to dump my Pathfinder for something more gas friendly. I have payments under $300 on it. I would have to either get a POS or increase my payments by about $200 a month to save $50 a month on gas. The last time I took it to a dealer they offered me $4000 below book value for it and it's in great shape.
It's retarded but some consumers will be dazzled by a sales person telling them that this car will cost you only $2000 a year to go 15K miles. They don't typically tell you that all you're spending now is $2500 a year.
#13
Edmunds has a nifty calculator specifically for this purpose http://www.edmunds.com/calculators/gas-guzzler.html
#14
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by pttl
Seriously? 48K for a prius?
#15
That always made me laugh.... people who buy Suburbans and then when gas prices rise all of a sudden they buy a Prius. Why the hell did you buy it in the first place, dumbass? They "like it" and "need it" but when gas prices raise a little all of a sudden they don't need or like it anymore. I'm glad to see fewer soccer moms in their 7-seater SUVs commuting to work all by themselves on the highway.
I get 20 mpg.... unfortunately there isn't anything out there that comes close to being as fast, as cheap, or as reliable as my current car, so I really have no reason to ditch it at all, unless I get bored of it. There are several cars that are more fun I'll admit but they're out of my price range.
I get 20 mpg.... unfortunately there isn't anything out there that comes close to being as fast, as cheap, or as reliable as my current car, so I really have no reason to ditch it at all, unless I get bored of it. There are several cars that are more fun I'll admit but they're out of my price range.
#16
This article is dishonest and misleading. It asks the question "Do you really save money ditching gas-guzzlers?" but the answer it gives is to a different question, which is "Can I recoup my SUV's loss in value with an expensive premium hybrid?"
The SUV's loss of value is money that is gone and is never coming back. The owner of the SUV took a gamble and has since lost. Recoupment of the loss should not be expected unless money starts coming out of the exhaust pipe. The actual question should be wether or not you want to continue spending $100 or $50 per fill up from this point forward.
Using the Edmunds calculator I input that the trade in is $15k, the used econo car is also $15k, the SUV gets 15 mpg, the econo car gets 30 mpg, the price of gas is $4.50 = $150.00 saved per month.
The SUV's loss of value is money that is gone and is never coming back. The owner of the SUV took a gamble and has since lost. Recoupment of the loss should not be expected unless money starts coming out of the exhaust pipe. The actual question should be wether or not you want to continue spending $100 or $50 per fill up from this point forward.
Using the Edmunds calculator I input that the trade in is $15k, the used econo car is also $15k, the SUV gets 15 mpg, the econo car gets 30 mpg, the price of gas is $4.50 = $150.00 saved per month.
#18
Three Wheelin'
Tell me about it. I tell my wife all the time "I am glad you like your tahoe cuz we're buried in it" We have an 07 tahoe we still owe $30k on. Like I said, we're buried in it. And I put like 20 percent down.
#19
my buddy farms he's got like a 96 extended cab 4x4 Z71 chevy 1/2 ton. it's paid off. i went over to his house and he got a 94 Accord as a beater. i'm like WTF(he gave like 4 grand for it) he doesn't drive the truck all that much(his truck a 96 and only has about 150-160,000 on it). he's like i'm tired of 100 buck fill ups. i said the car will never pay for itself. i think he said he's paying 200 a month on the car for 2 years. PLUS insurance is 300 every 6 months, plus of course the basics(fuel,oil changes,misc car repairs). i was like you were better off to just take it easy driving your truck.
#20
Originally Posted by stright-(paint)balling
my buddy farms he's got like a 96 extended cab 4x4 Z71 chevy 1/2 ton. it's paid off. i went over to his house and he got a 94 Accord as a beater. i'm like WTF(he gave like 4 grand for it) he doesn't drive the truck all that much(his truck a 96 and only has about 150-160,000 on it). he's like i'm tired of 100 buck fill ups. i said the car will never pay for itself. i think he said he's paying 200 a month on the car for 2 years. PLUS insurance is 300 every 6 months, plus of course the basics(fuel,oil changes,misc car repairs). i was like you were better off to just take it easy driving your truck.
I also applaud your friend for not choosing to use more gas, hurt the environment and help the terrorists just because it might be a financial wash.
#21
Punk Rocker
I never have, nor will I ever factor in gas mileage as a criteria for buying a car. I will get what I want to drive regardless of fuel economy. I love cars, I love driving them and I'll be damned if I'm going to let something like a few hundred bucks a year get in the way of what I love doing. The cost is worth it IMO if you truly love the car you own. Not saying that I wouldn't get something that was fuel efficient if I liked the car (last car was an 06 Civic Si that got around 30mpg and I loved it), but I could really care less about its EPA estimated mileage....
#22
Originally Posted by wackura
Your gripes are a little overboard. The cost of maintaining the commuter is offset by the lack of maintanance for the truck he's no longer driving. He doesn't even have to have insurance on truck if he doesn't plan to use it. Plus at the end of the two years he owns another car that could be worth pretty close to what he payed for it. Ultimately how much he saves depends on how often he drives, and I'm willing to bet he'll come out ahead.
I also applaud your friend for not choosing to use more gas, hurt the environment and help the terrorists just because it might be a financial wash.
I also applaud your friend for not choosing to use more gas, hurt the environment and help the terrorists just because it might be a financial wash.
so he's not saving a ton of cash. i still think it's silly but it's his money.
#23
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Everyone stating that the article is misleading is correct, because it all depends on the circumstances. If you have to eat a whole bunch of $$$ to get into one of these things, then you're out of luck (and $$$).
If you've had your Stupid Useless Vehicle (my term for SUV) for 8 years, then get an economy car, you'll probably be no worse than even if you like making payments. I mean, if its time for a new ride, then buy what you need and can afford, not what you see in an MTV video.
And the hybrid thing is a f-ing farce. Which is the worse ecological nightmare, a 92 Suburban at 10 miles to the gallon, or that hybrid at disposal time for the nickel metal-hydride batteries that are horrendous for the environment? Oh, the liberal "green" crowd doesn't think that far ahead. But my neighbors see I am "green".... Boy I feel better already.
If you've had your Stupid Useless Vehicle (my term for SUV) for 8 years, then get an economy car, you'll probably be no worse than even if you like making payments. I mean, if its time for a new ride, then buy what you need and can afford, not what you see in an MTV video.
And the hybrid thing is a f-ing farce. Which is the worse ecological nightmare, a 92 Suburban at 10 miles to the gallon, or that hybrid at disposal time for the nickel metal-hydride batteries that are horrendous for the environment? Oh, the liberal "green" crowd doesn't think that far ahead. But my neighbors see I am "green".... Boy I feel better already.
#25
Originally Posted by mrmako
Everyone stating that the article is misleading is correct, because it all depends on the circumstances. If you have to eat a whole bunch of $$$ to get into one of these things, then you're out of luck (and $$$).
If you've had your Stupid Useless Vehicle (my term for SUV) for 8 years, then get an economy car, you'll probably be no worse than even if you like making payments. I mean, if its time for a new ride, then buy what you need and can afford, not what you see in an MTV video.
And the hybrid thing is a f-ing farce. Which is the worse ecological nightmare, a 92 Suburban at 10 miles to the gallon, or that hybrid at disposal time for the nickel metal-hydride batteries that are horrendous for the environment? Oh, the liberal "green" crowd doesn't think that far ahead. But my neighbors see I am "green".... Boy I feel better already.
If you've had your Stupid Useless Vehicle (my term for SUV) for 8 years, then get an economy car, you'll probably be no worse than even if you like making payments. I mean, if its time for a new ride, then buy what you need and can afford, not what you see in an MTV video.
And the hybrid thing is a f-ing farce. Which is the worse ecological nightmare, a 92 Suburban at 10 miles to the gallon, or that hybrid at disposal time for the nickel metal-hydride batteries that are horrendous for the environment? Oh, the liberal "green" crowd doesn't think that far ahead. But my neighbors see I am "green".... Boy I feel better already.
#2. Only a way a 92 Suburban getting 10 mpg is if it's a 454 4x4. and you don't buy a 454 to get mileage. it's to tow.
I'm not saying buy a Hummer if you live in town. but like myself who live in rural areas and tow things you gotta have a SUV or truck.
I got a trailer right now hooked to dad's truck at 10,000 lbs(that's trailer and tractor). a heavy half ton might be able to get it. so before you go barking up a tree everyone needs to drive a Toyota Prius with you're "Al Gore thinking" think outside of the city.
#26
Drifting
Speaking of plunging values on SUV's, the opposite holds true, its a damn good time to get one if you need one. My buddy, with 4 kids just bought a brand new suburban. Sticker was 43k, got it for 27k, can't beat that. He can pay $4/gallon for a long time with that 16k he saved on the price of the truck.
#27
Originally Posted by Rock2534
Speaking of plunging values on SUV's, the opposite holds true, its a damn good time to get one if you need one. My buddy, with 4 kids just bought a brand new suburban. Sticker was 43k, got it for 27k, can't beat that. He can pay $4/gallon for a long time with that 16k he saved on the price of the truck.
#28
The Third Ball
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Originally Posted by RaviNJCLs
Too many people are quick to react and never really think things through. Good sales people can sense that a mile away. Today when you walk into a dealership with a SUV and say you are looking at saving on gas, guess what goes through their minds.
It would cost me a lot to dump my Pathfinder for something more gas friendly. I have payments under $300 on it. I would have to either get a POS or increase my payments by about $200 a month to save $50 a month on gas. The last time I took it to a dealer they offered me $4000 below book value for it and it's in great shape.
It's retarded but some consumers will be dazzled by a sales person telling them that this car will cost you only $2000 a year to go 15K miles. They don't typically tell you that all you're spending now is $2500 a year.
It would cost me a lot to dump my Pathfinder for something more gas friendly. I have payments under $300 on it. I would have to either get a POS or increase my payments by about $200 a month to save $50 a month on gas. The last time I took it to a dealer they offered me $4000 below book value for it and it's in great shape.
It's retarded but some consumers will be dazzled by a sales person telling them that this car will cost you only $2000 a year to go 15K miles. They don't typically tell you that all you're spending now is $2500 a year.
#29
Drifting
Originally Posted by stright-(paint)balling
damn the dealer took a blood bath on that sucker.
#31
Originally Posted by Rock2534
Speaking of plunging values on SUV's, the opposite holds true, its a damn good time to get one if you need one. My buddy, with 4 kids just bought a brand new suburban. Sticker was 43k, got it for 27k, can't beat that. He can pay $4/gallon for a long time with that 16k he saved on the price of the truck.
I wouldn't even pay $27K for a new Suburban right now because used SUVs are depreciating so rapidly. The original sticker price is a joke and shouldn't enter into the equation. Even the bean counters know it and are discountinuing lease options because obviously they're left with worthless assets at the end of the term.
#32
Originally Posted by wackura
I've read that SUVs used to be very high profit margin, ranging from $5000 up to $15,000 because they're icing on a realtively simple truck frame, while the profit margin of cars is closer to $1000-$2000. The dealer probably took a hit but not to the degree that it would seem.
I wouldn't even pay $27K for a new Suburban right now because used SUVs are depreciating so rapidly. The original sticker price is a joke and shouldn't enter into the equation. Even the bean counters know it and are discountinuing lease options because obviously they're left with worthless assets at the end of the term.
I wouldn't even pay $27K for a new Suburban right now because used SUVs are depreciating so rapidly. The original sticker price is a joke and shouldn't enter into the equation. Even the bean counters know it and are discountinuing lease options because obviously they're left with worthless assets at the end of the term.
#33
Originally Posted by stright-(paint)balling
if you plan on driving the Suburban or (insert whatever larger SUV here) until the wheels falls off nows a excellent time to buy. 27 grand is a hell of a deal on a 43 grand sticker. If i wanted a Suburban nows the time to strike cause i keep cars until their toast
#34
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Originally Posted by Rock2534
Its a buyers market, just depends on which side of the deal you are on. I saw one dealer advertising Cadillac Escalades offering 0% financing for 6 years!
That was in this past Saturday's supplement to the LA Times.
#36
Punk Rocker
Originally Posted by wackura
That's true. There's much more supply than demand at the moment but that will disapear as the current supplies get old and break down and there are fewer new SUVs to replace them.
I wouldn't write the SUV's obituary just yet. They'll be back....
#37
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
I wouldn't write the SUV's obituary just yet. They'll be back....
#38
Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
I never have, nor will I ever factor in gas mileage as a criteria for buying a car. I will get what I want to drive regardless of fuel economy. I love cars, I love driving them and I'll be damned if I'm going to let something like a few hundred bucks a year get in the way of what I love doing. The cost is worth it IMO if you truly love the car you own. Not saying that I wouldn't get something that was fuel efficient if I liked the car (last car was an 06 Civic Si that got around 30mpg and I loved it), but I could really care less about its EPA estimated mileage....
I usually agree with everything you say, aside from when it comes to the GT-R
#39
One on the right for me
Originally Posted by sho_nuff1997
People are foolish. Unless you are gaining 15-20mpg, it will take forever to get your money back, if at all.
#40
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Im actually looking into purchasing a v8 SUV these days because there are deals to be had on them!!
you can get a 5 year old Tahoe or Navigator for under 10grand these days! they are selling on average of 5-10k below bluebook.
i would love to finally get a big SUV. my brother has a more gas efficient WRX so we use that car whenever we need to rack up serious mileage.
you can get a 5 year old Tahoe or Navigator for under 10grand these days! they are selling on average of 5-10k below bluebook.
i would love to finally get a big SUV. my brother has a more gas efficient WRX so we use that car whenever we need to rack up serious mileage.