Car hits Md. street-race crowd; 8 killed (was) Street-race crash kills 7 in crowd
#81
If the street racers didn't street race this whole tragedy could have been averted....
I agree.
Now if that Crown Vic driver didn't drive through the cloud of smoke, this whole tragedy could have been averted. There just is NO other way around it. Here's how I see it, in terms of who's at fault for the deaths...
20% for the street racers (street racing is an ENTIRELY different crime, its an additional charge)
30% for the bystanders
50% for the Crown Vic driver
If the street racers drove through a cloud of smoke and killed 8 people its a different story. But the cold, hard fact here is that the Crown Vic driver demonstrated negligence. I doubt there will be any new findings that would change my view on this matter at all. Lights on, lights off, drunk/high or sober, awake or asleep, why would it matter?
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Now if that Crown Vic driver didn't drive through the cloud of smoke, this whole tragedy could have been averted. There just is NO other way around it. Here's how I see it, in terms of who's at fault for the deaths...
20% for the street racers (street racing is an ENTIRELY different crime, its an additional charge)
30% for the bystanders
50% for the Crown Vic driver
If the street racers drove through a cloud of smoke and killed 8 people its a different story. But the cold, hard fact here is that the Crown Vic driver demonstrated negligence. I doubt there will be any new findings that would change my view on this matter at all. Lights on, lights off, drunk/high or sober, awake or asleep, why would it matter?
#82
Senior Moderator
you're wrong.
#83
Originally Posted by srika
you're wrong.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Lets say a car rear-ended another on the highway, and they both started to smoke profusely and both drivers were stuck in their car. Another car can't see through the smoke, so they keep driving at a slightly slower pace. Then *smash*, they sandwich the middle car into the other and then both drivers of the smoking cars die. Who is at fault?
#84
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Age: 43
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion, all parties are responsible:
-Crown Vic driver: Failure to yield to pedestrians and not reducing speed for conditions. If the eyewitness views are correct and it his headlights weren’t on, well he is the party that holds the most fault.
-Pedestrians: A bit of common sense goes a long way. Don’t stand in the middle of a highway
-Street Racers: If the race wouldn’t have been there, the people wouldn’t have congregated. Although the spectators came at their free will.
I am not a street racer, nor do I condone it. The thing that irks me is that this is being sensationalized by the media because of “street racing”. These was an accident and let’s leave it at that.
-Crown Vic driver: Failure to yield to pedestrians and not reducing speed for conditions. If the eyewitness views are correct and it his headlights weren’t on, well he is the party that holds the most fault.
-Pedestrians: A bit of common sense goes a long way. Don’t stand in the middle of a highway
-Street Racers: If the race wouldn’t have been there, the people wouldn’t have congregated. Although the spectators came at their free will.
I am not a street racer, nor do I condone it. The thing that irks me is that this is being sensationalized by the media because of “street racing”. These was an accident and let’s leave it at that.
#85
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
Wow, that convinced me. ![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Lets say a car rear-ended another on the highway, and they both started to smoke profusely and both drivers were stuck in their car. Another car can't see through the smoke, so they keep driving at a slightly slower pace. Then *smash*, they sandwich the middle car into the other and then both drivers of the smoking cars die. Who is at fault?
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Lets say a car rear-ended another on the highway, and they both started to smoke profusely and both drivers were stuck in their car. Another car can't see through the smoke, so they keep driving at a slightly slower pace. Then *smash*, they sandwich the middle car into the other and then both drivers of the smoking cars die. Who is at fault?
#86
Originally Posted by Maximized
In my opinion, all parties are responsible:
-Crown Vic driver: Failure to yield to pedestrians and not reducing speed for conditions. If the eyewitness views are correct and it his headlights weren’t on, well he is the party that holds the most fault.
-Pedestrians: A bit of common sense goes a long way. Don’t stand in the middle of a highway
-Street Racers: If the race wouldn’t have been there, the people wouldn’t have congregated. Although the spectators came at their free will.
I am not a street racer, nor do I condone it. The thing that irks me is that this is being sensationalized by the media because of “street racing”. These was an accident and let’s leave it at that.
-Crown Vic driver: Failure to yield to pedestrians and not reducing speed for conditions. If the eyewitness views are correct and it his headlights weren’t on, well he is the party that holds the most fault.
-Pedestrians: A bit of common sense goes a long way. Don’t stand in the middle of a highway
-Street Racers: If the race wouldn’t have been there, the people wouldn’t have congregated. Although the spectators came at their free will.
I am not a street racer, nor do I condone it. The thing that irks me is that this is being sensationalized by the media because of “street racing”. These was an accident and let’s leave it at that.
People are so hung up over the fact that this was a "street race" so instantly in their head they're thinking, the street racers are 99% at fault. Street racing is a crime, but it is a separate charge from the accident.
#87
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Maximized
In my opinion, all parties are responsible:
-Crown Vic driver: Failure to yield to pedestrians and not reducing speed for conditions. If the eyewitness views are correct and it his headlights weren’t on, well he is the party that holds the most fault.
-Pedestrians: A bit of common sense goes a long way. Don’t stand in the middle of a highway
-Street Racers: If the race wouldn’t have been there, the people wouldn’t have congregated. Although the spectators came at their free will.
I am not a street racer, nor do I condone it. The thing that irks me is that this is being sensationalized by the media because of “street racing”. These was an accident and let’s leave it at that.
-Crown Vic driver: Failure to yield to pedestrians and not reducing speed for conditions. If the eyewitness views are correct and it his headlights weren’t on, well he is the party that holds the most fault.
-Pedestrians: A bit of common sense goes a long way. Don’t stand in the middle of a highway
-Street Racers: If the race wouldn’t have been there, the people wouldn’t have congregated. Although the spectators came at their free will.
I am not a street racer, nor do I condone it. The thing that irks me is that this is being sensationalized by the media because of “street racing”. These was an accident and let’s leave it at that.
#88
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
I agree 100% with everything you said
People are so hung up over the fact that this was a "street race" so instantly in their head they're thinking, the street racers are 99% at fault. Street racing is a crime, but it is a separate charge from the accident.
People are so hung up over the fact that this was a "street race" so instantly in their head they're thinking, the street racers are 99% at fault. Street racing is a crime, but it is a separate charge from the accident.
effect: 8 people dead
Tell me you disagree with that. Tell me, that if that street racing did NOT occur that night, that those 8 people would still be dead.
#89
Originally Posted by srika
that's an accident that happened as a result of an accident.
Originally Posted by srika
cause: street racing
effect: 8 people dead
Tell me you disagree with that. Tell me, that if that street racing did NOT occur that night, that those 8 people would still be dead.
effect: 8 people dead
Tell me you disagree with that. Tell me, that if that street racing did NOT occur that night, that those 8 people would still be dead.
Cause: Crown Vic driver goes through cloud of smoke
Effect: 8 people dead
Now tell me you disagree with that. We can make excuses all day. If gun manufacturers didn't make guns, we wouldn't have wars
![Blah Blah](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/blahblah.gif)
#90
teh Senior Instigator
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Huntington Beach, CA -> Ashburn, VA -> Raleigh, NC -> Walnut Creek, CA
Age: 42
Posts: 44,090
Received 957 Likes
on
328 Posts
Originally Posted by srika
without being there, do you have any idea how it looked for the Crown Vic driver as he approached?
no, but apparently you were because you pass very little blame to the vic driver
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
There are a ton of "if's" Reality is, the crown vic drove into a crowd of people. I've been around these events, there are "usually" lights on, it's not like everyone is standing around in COMPLETE darkness.
Yes, had they not been street racing, this wouldn't have happened. Had someone not cut off someone on the hwy, there would not have been a 10 car pileup, and on and on.
#91
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Age: 43
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by srika
cause: street racing
effect: 8 people dead
Tell me you disagree with that. Tell me, that if that street racing did NOT occur that night, that those 8 people would still be dead.
effect: 8 people dead
Tell me you disagree with that. Tell me, that if that street racing did NOT occur that night, that those 8 people would still be dead.
Effect = 8 people dead
#92
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Age: 43
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by CLpower
no, but apparently you were because you pass very little blame to the vic driver ![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
What if there was fog or smoke from a fire? Who would be to blame? You can bet your ass that it would be the driver or the vehicle who caused the accident.
#93
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
And yet the situation is all too similar... big cloud of smoke, negligent driver drives right through it, kills people.
I do disagree actually, and I'll actually give you a reason. The street racers did not plow into the 8 people, the Crown Vic driver did.
Cause: Crown Vic driver goes through cloud of smoke
Effect: 8 people dead
Now tell me you disagree with that. We can make excuses all day. If gun manufacturers didn't make guns, we wouldn't have wars
but ultimately it is the decision or negligence of the person who decides to start a war/drive through a cloud of smoke.
Effect: 8 people dead
Now tell me you disagree with that. We can make excuses all day. If gun manufacturers didn't make guns, we wouldn't have wars
![Blah Blah](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/blahblah.gif)
#94
Senior Moderator
More (complete) info here with more details.. this is saying he didn't have his headlights on - but I think they haven't finalized that yet.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...adlines&sub=AR
Car Plows Into Crowd Watching Pr. George's Street Race, Killing 8
Smoke May Have Hidden Victims in 3 a.m. Mishap
By Steve Vogel, Philip Rucker and Katherine Shaver
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, February 17, 2008; Page A01
Eight people were killed and six others were injured early yesterday morning in southern Prince George's County when a motorist unwittingly drove into a smoke-shrouded crowd of people gathered on a dark rural road to watch as two drivers roared off in an illegal street race, police said.
The crash was one of the deadliest motor vehicle accidents in the Washington region in more than 25 years. It highlighted the risks of street racing, a common practice in remote areas where there are long stretches of road and few traffic lights.
The driver of the white Ford Crown Victoria that hit the group might have been blinded by the cloud of white tire smoke and debris kicked up by the two vehicles that had just started their race on Indian Head Highway near Pine Drive in Accokeek, a well-known racing spot, police said.
A large crowd of spectators -- witness accounts ranged from 50 to almost 300 people -- had gathered about 3 a.m. to watch the race, police said. The racers had created a large cloud of smoke when they spun and screeched their tires in place while "burning out," which drivers do at the start of a race to warm their engines and tires.
The spectators, who were at the starting line, had begun to move into the roadway as they looked north in the direction of the cars racing away, witnesses said. The Crown Victoria came up from behind, hitting several people in the road before it careened onto a grassy embankment, where more spectators were standing, witnesses said. Police said they are investigating reports that the Crown Victoria's headlights were off.
Witnesses and police described a grisly scene. People flew 15 feet in the air as they slammed off the car's hood and roof, which became covered in blood. Shoes and pieces of clothing were scattered along the grassy median for 200 yards. Investigators marked the pavement with spray paint. Below one circle, they sprayed "hat." Next to another, "2 shoes." A third fluorescent mark said "body."
Steve Swann, 36, of Fort Washington witnessed the crash. "It sounded like a bunch of booms -- boom, boom, boom, boom," he said. "Then, everything came to a stop."
Indian Head Highway (Route 210) is a four-lane road with two lanes in each direction separated by a grassy median where the crash occurred. The speed limit is 55 mph, and there are no streetlights.
Ron Satterfield, 59, who lives off the highway, said he sees street racing on the road far too often.
"This is like a racetrack," he said. "From 228 to Bryans Road is a racetrack, especially in the summertime. You'll see people do in excess of 100 miles per hour all the time."
He expressed frustration that more hasn't been done to shut down the racing. "How many people have to die before the officials say, 'Hey, we need to do something on this street?' " Satterfield asked.
Elizabeth Campbell, a lieutenant with the Charles County EMS department, was the first responder on the scene. She said she expected to see and hear chaos, but what she encountered was a quiet, almost surreal scene with people standing around, some of them appearing to be in shock.
"When one pedestrian is struck, it's a bad scene, but with multiple pedestrians, it was overwhelming," said Campbell, who quickly set about treating victims and placing white sheets over the dead.
Cpl. Clinton Copeland, a Prince George's police spokesman, called the scene the most "horrific" in his 14-year career.
"This is a tragedy. . . . It's a tragic incident, and it's one of those situations you want to never see happen in your county," he said.
William Gaines Jr., of Nanjemoy in Charles County, said his father, William Gaines Sr., 61, was hit and killed while standing next to him in the road. He said he had his back turned when the Crown Victoria came through the crowd. When he turned around, he said, his father was gone.
"The race was over with," said Gaines, who returned to the scene yesterday afternoon. "The car came up from behind us. I didn't see the car until it was over. It happened so fast."
Police did not release the names of those who were killed or injured but said all the deceased were men. Family members identified four of the dead as Mark Courtney, 33, of Leonardtown, who worked as a groundskeeper at Patuxent River Naval Air Station; Gaines, a construction worker who lived in Nanjemoy; Darrell Wills, whose age and home town weren't available; and Milton Pinkney, 41, of Aquasco, who worked in the cement business.
Seven people were pronounced dead at the scene, police said. An eighth died at a hospital. A Maryland Shock Trauma Center spokeswoman said two victims, ages 37 and 44, were flown there by helicopter about 4:30 a.m. By yesterday afternoon, she said, both were in serious condition, and one was in surgery. Copeland said he did not know where the other victims were taken.
Police said the Crown Victoria was not involved in the racing. The name of the driver, who was not injured, was not released because he is considered a witness, Copeland said. A tractor-trailer driver, whose name was not released, struck one of the bodies after coming upon the scene, police said.
Copeland said it was too early in the investigation to discuss criminal charges. He said police are still trying to find the drivers involved in the race.
"There are a lot of questions we still need answers to," Copeland said.
Karen Savoy Phillips, 49, who lives in the Hunters Point subdivision in Accokeek a few hundred yards off of Indian Head Highway, said she has heard the racing and called authorities to report it. She said she did not call police about 2:30 a.m. yesterday when she heard racing out on the highway, nor did she hear a collision or the commotion that followed.
"I've heard it in the early morning hours," Phillips said of racing in general.
Of yesterday's crash, she said, "I was just shocked that people died."
The accident was one of the deadliest motor vehicle mishaps in the Washington area in decades. In 1979, 10 teenagers were fatally injured in a pickup truck crash in Anne Arundel County.
Yesterday's incident was the kind police say they have tried to prevent as part of an illegal late-night pastime that has gone on for decades. The races can draw hundreds of people from across the Washington area, mostly on Friday and Saturday nights, and are often held along dark, remote stretches of road. The events, whose locations are spread via word of mouth, often have a party atmosphere in which participants display souped-up vehicles built for speed. They can draw prizes of thousands of dollars for the winner, although racers say it's more often about bragging rights.
That area of Indian Head Highway is a popular racing spot, Copeland said. However, he said, it's more often motorcycles than cars.
"The way the road is set up, it's definitely enticing for someone who wants to see how fast their vehicle can go," Copeland said.
He said police have used radar and speed traps in the area. "It's not like it's a situation we're not aware of," he said.
Copeland said it is difficult for officers to enforce street racing laws. "No matter how much enforcement you do, no matter how many speed traps you put down, it's still up to the individual to make the decision."
As word of the accident spread, people gathered at the site, some carrying flowers and teddy bears. Some said they came because they are familiar with the street racing scene and knew some of the victims. One person set a simple bouquet of daisies by the side of the road.
Mary Wilson, 37, of Marbury, who went to the scene late yesterday afternoon, said she knew two of the victims.
"I don't know what to say. I feel very empty," Wilson said. "I never imagined it would end like this. I'm just all shook up and nervous."
Denee Hines, 20, a daughter of the owner of Healthy Hair & Co., a salon near the accident scene, said she was horrified to learn of the accident. She said her mother has talked of a street racing problem in the area. "We couldn't believe it," Hines said of the accident. "Our shop as a whole is putting out all our prayers for the families."
Unlike many races, which draw a mostly young crowd, yesterday morning's event drew spectators of all ages, including parents with their children. Those killed and hurt ranged in age from their 20s to 61, police said.
The road, a major commuter route between Washington and Southern Maryland, reopened at 3 p.m., after firefighters used hoses to wash bloodstains and debris from the pavement.
Staff writers Rosalind S. Helderman, Ruben Castaneda, Hamil R. Harris, Avis Thomas-Lester and Jenna Johnson and staff researcher Meg Smith contributed to this report.
Smoke May Have Hidden Victims in 3 a.m. Mishap
By Steve Vogel, Philip Rucker and Katherine Shaver
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, February 17, 2008; Page A01
Eight people were killed and six others were injured early yesterday morning in southern Prince George's County when a motorist unwittingly drove into a smoke-shrouded crowd of people gathered on a dark rural road to watch as two drivers roared off in an illegal street race, police said.
The crash was one of the deadliest motor vehicle accidents in the Washington region in more than 25 years. It highlighted the risks of street racing, a common practice in remote areas where there are long stretches of road and few traffic lights.
The driver of the white Ford Crown Victoria that hit the group might have been blinded by the cloud of white tire smoke and debris kicked up by the two vehicles that had just started their race on Indian Head Highway near Pine Drive in Accokeek, a well-known racing spot, police said.
A large crowd of spectators -- witness accounts ranged from 50 to almost 300 people -- had gathered about 3 a.m. to watch the race, police said. The racers had created a large cloud of smoke when they spun and screeched their tires in place while "burning out," which drivers do at the start of a race to warm their engines and tires.
The spectators, who were at the starting line, had begun to move into the roadway as they looked north in the direction of the cars racing away, witnesses said. The Crown Victoria came up from behind, hitting several people in the road before it careened onto a grassy embankment, where more spectators were standing, witnesses said. Police said they are investigating reports that the Crown Victoria's headlights were off.
Witnesses and police described a grisly scene. People flew 15 feet in the air as they slammed off the car's hood and roof, which became covered in blood. Shoes and pieces of clothing were scattered along the grassy median for 200 yards. Investigators marked the pavement with spray paint. Below one circle, they sprayed "hat." Next to another, "2 shoes." A third fluorescent mark said "body."
Steve Swann, 36, of Fort Washington witnessed the crash. "It sounded like a bunch of booms -- boom, boom, boom, boom," he said. "Then, everything came to a stop."
Indian Head Highway (Route 210) is a four-lane road with two lanes in each direction separated by a grassy median where the crash occurred. The speed limit is 55 mph, and there are no streetlights.
Ron Satterfield, 59, who lives off the highway, said he sees street racing on the road far too often.
"This is like a racetrack," he said. "From 228 to Bryans Road is a racetrack, especially in the summertime. You'll see people do in excess of 100 miles per hour all the time."
He expressed frustration that more hasn't been done to shut down the racing. "How many people have to die before the officials say, 'Hey, we need to do something on this street?' " Satterfield asked.
Elizabeth Campbell, a lieutenant with the Charles County EMS department, was the first responder on the scene. She said she expected to see and hear chaos, but what she encountered was a quiet, almost surreal scene with people standing around, some of them appearing to be in shock.
"When one pedestrian is struck, it's a bad scene, but with multiple pedestrians, it was overwhelming," said Campbell, who quickly set about treating victims and placing white sheets over the dead.
Cpl. Clinton Copeland, a Prince George's police spokesman, called the scene the most "horrific" in his 14-year career.
"This is a tragedy. . . . It's a tragic incident, and it's one of those situations you want to never see happen in your county," he said.
William Gaines Jr., of Nanjemoy in Charles County, said his father, William Gaines Sr., 61, was hit and killed while standing next to him in the road. He said he had his back turned when the Crown Victoria came through the crowd. When he turned around, he said, his father was gone.
"The race was over with," said Gaines, who returned to the scene yesterday afternoon. "The car came up from behind us. I didn't see the car until it was over. It happened so fast."
Police did not release the names of those who were killed or injured but said all the deceased were men. Family members identified four of the dead as Mark Courtney, 33, of Leonardtown, who worked as a groundskeeper at Patuxent River Naval Air Station; Gaines, a construction worker who lived in Nanjemoy; Darrell Wills, whose age and home town weren't available; and Milton Pinkney, 41, of Aquasco, who worked in the cement business.
Seven people were pronounced dead at the scene, police said. An eighth died at a hospital. A Maryland Shock Trauma Center spokeswoman said two victims, ages 37 and 44, were flown there by helicopter about 4:30 a.m. By yesterday afternoon, she said, both were in serious condition, and one was in surgery. Copeland said he did not know where the other victims were taken.
Police said the Crown Victoria was not involved in the racing. The name of the driver, who was not injured, was not released because he is considered a witness, Copeland said. A tractor-trailer driver, whose name was not released, struck one of the bodies after coming upon the scene, police said.
Copeland said it was too early in the investigation to discuss criminal charges. He said police are still trying to find the drivers involved in the race.
"There are a lot of questions we still need answers to," Copeland said.
Karen Savoy Phillips, 49, who lives in the Hunters Point subdivision in Accokeek a few hundred yards off of Indian Head Highway, said she has heard the racing and called authorities to report it. She said she did not call police about 2:30 a.m. yesterday when she heard racing out on the highway, nor did she hear a collision or the commotion that followed.
"I've heard it in the early morning hours," Phillips said of racing in general.
Of yesterday's crash, she said, "I was just shocked that people died."
The accident was one of the deadliest motor vehicle mishaps in the Washington area in decades. In 1979, 10 teenagers were fatally injured in a pickup truck crash in Anne Arundel County.
Yesterday's incident was the kind police say they have tried to prevent as part of an illegal late-night pastime that has gone on for decades. The races can draw hundreds of people from across the Washington area, mostly on Friday and Saturday nights, and are often held along dark, remote stretches of road. The events, whose locations are spread via word of mouth, often have a party atmosphere in which participants display souped-up vehicles built for speed. They can draw prizes of thousands of dollars for the winner, although racers say it's more often about bragging rights.
That area of Indian Head Highway is a popular racing spot, Copeland said. However, he said, it's more often motorcycles than cars.
"The way the road is set up, it's definitely enticing for someone who wants to see how fast their vehicle can go," Copeland said.
He said police have used radar and speed traps in the area. "It's not like it's a situation we're not aware of," he said.
Copeland said it is difficult for officers to enforce street racing laws. "No matter how much enforcement you do, no matter how many speed traps you put down, it's still up to the individual to make the decision."
As word of the accident spread, people gathered at the site, some carrying flowers and teddy bears. Some said they came because they are familiar with the street racing scene and knew some of the victims. One person set a simple bouquet of daisies by the side of the road.
Mary Wilson, 37, of Marbury, who went to the scene late yesterday afternoon, said she knew two of the victims.
"I don't know what to say. I feel very empty," Wilson said. "I never imagined it would end like this. I'm just all shook up and nervous."
Denee Hines, 20, a daughter of the owner of Healthy Hair & Co., a salon near the accident scene, said she was horrified to learn of the accident. She said her mother has talked of a street racing problem in the area. "We couldn't believe it," Hines said of the accident. "Our shop as a whole is putting out all our prayers for the families."
Unlike many races, which draw a mostly young crowd, yesterday morning's event drew spectators of all ages, including parents with their children. Those killed and hurt ranged in age from their 20s to 61, police said.
The road, a major commuter route between Washington and Southern Maryland, reopened at 3 p.m., after firefighters used hoses to wash bloodstains and debris from the pavement.
Staff writers Rosalind S. Helderman, Ruben Castaneda, Hamil R. Harris, Avis Thomas-Lester and Jenna Johnson and staff researcher Meg Smith contributed to this report.
#95
Originally Posted by srika
uh no, the situation is not similar. Accidents cannot always be avoided. People standing in the middle of the road watching a streetrace, can be avoided. Honestly I feel like comparing this "accident" to a "regular" one where say someone has a blowout and loses control of their car and crashes is like apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by srika
why were the 8 people standing in the path of the Crown Vic on a busy 4-land road?
Originally Posted by srika
The direct cause of the deaths was the impact from the Crown Vic. But the people would not have been standing there, if not for the street race. This is starting to feel like the discussions in the "Will the plane takeoff" thread...
![rofl](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
However, street racing did not kill those 8 people. The Crown Vic driver did. At this point things can only get worse for the CV driver.... if they were sober and awake it just means they're not a very good driver. Still means they were at fault. If the lights were off, more blame to the CV, CV driver was drunk, thats even more blame.
The only time street racing kills people is when the street racers themselves crash into something/someone. That is not the case here.
#96
Senior Moderator
Yeah if I saw a cloud of smoke I would definitely slow down, probably even come to a stop before the cloud, if I could. Clouds of smoke do not magically appear on large 4-lane roads. You proposed a good question and after thinking about it I would assign more blame to the Crown Vic driver. BUT - I still don't feel it was primarily his fault. If more information is found later to the contrary (headlights were off, he was being chased by police, etc), my thinking can (and will) change.
#97
Originally Posted by CLpower
Where do you think all the people that came to the street race had parked? You don't think they had cars ont he side of the road, like there would be in an accident?
A crowd is a crowd...how you don't see a crowd is beyond me......running into either crowd would be the drivers fault IMO.
A crowd is a crowd...how you don't see a crowd is beyond me......running into either crowd would be the drivers fault IMO.
#98
I just felt that the LEO quoted who said 70% of the responsibility was on the street racers and 5% of the responsibility was on the CV driver was blurring the line between the street racing and the main focus of the incident.... which is the 8 casualties.
For the crime of street racing, I blame 90% on the street racers and 10% on the bystanders, 0% on the CV driver. It seems like quite the crowd gathered, the two street racers could have been instigated/egged on by the crowd (50 people??) to race. CV driver was completely innocent here.
But again, I still think its 20/30/50 for the racers/bystanders/CV driver regarding the casualties. We'll see though...
For the crime of street racing, I blame 90% on the street racers and 10% on the bystanders, 0% on the CV driver. It seems like quite the crowd gathered, the two street racers could have been instigated/egged on by the crowd (50 people??) to race. CV driver was completely innocent here.
But again, I still think its 20/30/50 for the racers/bystanders/CV driver regarding the casualties. We'll see though...
#99
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Age: 43
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just hate street racing being blamed. I frown on street racers and don't engage in it. What sucks is that this puts a black eye on law abiding enthusiasts like myself. These types of tragedies only give police more ammunition to harress enthusiasts.
#100
この道は毛むくじゃらのマンコだらけ..
Got this from another site...
"QUOTE
This sucks. I know some of the people that were killed. Some of my friends were out there last night and if i didn't have the flu, I would've probably been out there too. There are a lot of different spots around here and in that area where it happened is an import spot and muscle car spot. The muscle car spot is mostly older people. People were calling me to see if I was alive this afternoon. My girl read me the story and when she said someone was 60 something I knew it was the muscle car spot. Those guys are pro's. They bring their cars on trailers, usually 10.5" Outlaws. 7 or 8 second cars on the street. Someone said something about a group of people being out at 4am, we've been out there until the sun's came up a few times. This group of people doesn't stand on the side of the road though until its time for a race. Where this accident happened, there is a club nearby where everyone takes there cars and set up the races. They set up the races then go out to the strip. The other muscle car spot there is a shop everyone hangs out at all night before they race on the street in the front of it. 4am would be late for the import spots.
My one friend that was there said the crown vic came 20 seconds after the race was already over. he said bodies were flying everywhere. One person that got hit flew through the air and took someone else out. One of my friends that was hit was cut in half and in the middle of the highway and was ran over by a tractor trailer. Everyone ran and went to the hospital to see if the people that lived were ok. 2 of my friends cousins were hit and a 3rd lost his leg. My friends uncle was hit and lived and is alright, another guy I run with was hit and is ok. This is going to change everything and now everyone will be a target like when that cops chased a motorcycle on the beltway and the cop lost control and caused a bad accident killing a lot of people.
from my friend on another forum:
I spoke to my cousin who's a ranking leo in pg county assigned to District II and he said that their special operations traffic enforcement section has been waiting for something like this to happen to get "geared up" (as bad as that sounds). And that the commanders for all of the six divisions are going to be meeting up with Chief High and Special Operations next week, so that probably means the within the next 30days there will be some dramatic changes.
from another friend:
QUOTE
Tonight, myself and two others go to the scene. Man... Seeing all of those skid marks, body markings, etc. I cant describe the feeling that I got. Seeing all of the people gathered around. It brought back all the feelings from earlier in the day. While we were there, the first cop that responded to the scene rolls up. He states that all of the cops that showed up took it bad. In fact, this cop has a shrink riding with him. We leave shortly afterwards.
Go to the 7-Eleven on 228. The same cop pulls up again. He tells us that they are looking for the drivers of the race cars. I believe they intend to charge them. We all tell him that we dont know anything. "
"QUOTE
This sucks. I know some of the people that were killed. Some of my friends were out there last night and if i didn't have the flu, I would've probably been out there too. There are a lot of different spots around here and in that area where it happened is an import spot and muscle car spot. The muscle car spot is mostly older people. People were calling me to see if I was alive this afternoon. My girl read me the story and when she said someone was 60 something I knew it was the muscle car spot. Those guys are pro's. They bring their cars on trailers, usually 10.5" Outlaws. 7 or 8 second cars on the street. Someone said something about a group of people being out at 4am, we've been out there until the sun's came up a few times. This group of people doesn't stand on the side of the road though until its time for a race. Where this accident happened, there is a club nearby where everyone takes there cars and set up the races. They set up the races then go out to the strip. The other muscle car spot there is a shop everyone hangs out at all night before they race on the street in the front of it. 4am would be late for the import spots.
My one friend that was there said the crown vic came 20 seconds after the race was already over. he said bodies were flying everywhere. One person that got hit flew through the air and took someone else out. One of my friends that was hit was cut in half and in the middle of the highway and was ran over by a tractor trailer. Everyone ran and went to the hospital to see if the people that lived were ok. 2 of my friends cousins were hit and a 3rd lost his leg. My friends uncle was hit and lived and is alright, another guy I run with was hit and is ok. This is going to change everything and now everyone will be a target like when that cops chased a motorcycle on the beltway and the cop lost control and caused a bad accident killing a lot of people.
from my friend on another forum:
I spoke to my cousin who's a ranking leo in pg county assigned to District II and he said that their special operations traffic enforcement section has been waiting for something like this to happen to get "geared up" (as bad as that sounds). And that the commanders for all of the six divisions are going to be meeting up with Chief High and Special Operations next week, so that probably means the within the next 30days there will be some dramatic changes.
from another friend:
QUOTE
Tonight, myself and two others go to the scene. Man... Seeing all of those skid marks, body markings, etc. I cant describe the feeling that I got. Seeing all of the people gathered around. It brought back all the feelings from earlier in the day. While we were there, the first cop that responded to the scene rolls up. He states that all of the cops that showed up took it bad. In fact, this cop has a shrink riding with him. We leave shortly afterwards.
Go to the 7-Eleven on 228. The same cop pulls up again. He tells us that they are looking for the drivers of the race cars. I believe they intend to charge them. We all tell him that we dont know anything. "
#101
Morbid
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Maryland
Age: 46
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing to think about, the driver of that Vic was a young person. If you look at the Vic in the accident photos you will see that it was actually a retired police car from the missing spotlights on the driver and passenger door.
Heres what I bet happened- The driver of the Vic was either messing with the crowd, messing with the cars that were racing, or was going to just go blowing past them. By driving with his headlights off he was going scare everyone into some sort of 'OH SH!T' reaction by making them think he was the cops by suddenly turning on the headlights at the crowd OR behind the racers.
It's no coincidence a young punk is driving a retired police car around an "organized" street race with headlights off.
OH, and if you ask where I get that idea from, an incident comes to mind when I was a teen spectating a street race. I remember two young guys in a white Vic with a giant CB whip antenna lip mounted on the trunk who would park and wait for the cars to race from the staging spot, then go tearing out of the parking spot after them as if they were going to pull them over. They did it a few times and then left. It scared the crowd and the racers. I wasnt worried when I saw the green Enterprise rent-a-car sticker on the bumper.
I see this crap on the beltway all the time, young punks in retired police cars riding peoples ass to get them out of the way. The driver was not 'just passing through', something else is up.
Heres what I bet happened- The driver of the Vic was either messing with the crowd, messing with the cars that were racing, or was going to just go blowing past them. By driving with his headlights off he was going scare everyone into some sort of 'OH SH!T' reaction by making them think he was the cops by suddenly turning on the headlights at the crowd OR behind the racers.
It's no coincidence a young punk is driving a retired police car around an "organized" street race with headlights off.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
OH, and if you ask where I get that idea from, an incident comes to mind when I was a teen spectating a street race. I remember two young guys in a white Vic with a giant CB whip antenna lip mounted on the trunk who would park and wait for the cars to race from the staging spot, then go tearing out of the parking spot after them as if they were going to pull them over. They did it a few times and then left. It scared the crowd and the racers. I wasnt worried when I saw the green Enterprise rent-a-car sticker on the bumper.
I see this crap on the beltway all the time, young punks in retired police cars riding peoples ass to get them out of the way. The driver was not 'just passing through', something else is up.
#102
teh Senior Instigator
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Huntington Beach, CA -> Ashburn, VA -> Raleigh, NC -> Walnut Creek, CA
Age: 42
Posts: 44,090
Received 957 Likes
on
328 Posts
post from someone on my GTO forum, i'm starting to like ncinirator's take on the situation:
"Ok so I know a few people who were there that night and saw the whole thing happen. This is what I was told from two different people who actually dont know each other and were apparently standing in different areas when the accident occurred.
The 2 cars racing did their respective burnouts and then staged. There was NO smoke from the burnout when they launched, it had all dissipated. There was a white ex-cop car with no lights on tailing the two but no one knew it was there so when the cars launched everyone crowded into the street to see who won. The crown vic was accelerating when people ran out in front of it and the driver apparently hit his brakes and slid the car to the side to try and avoid hitting the crowd. The part I have a hard time believing but again this is what I was told is that a Semi was cruising down the road at that exact same time and the driver saw nothing, not the crown vic or the crowd. The Semi apparently creamed the crown vic sending it into a spin and in the process the crown vic spun into several people after being hit by the Semi. One of the guys I talked to said when the racers launched he saw the crown vic out of the corner of his eye and immediately grabbed his girlfriend and pulled her back. They were just far enough back to avoid everything, others were not so lucky.
What I know/ been told is:
That section of road is a common route for tractor trailers so the fact that one was there is not unusual. The crown vic was NOT a undercover cop!!! (heard that rumor too but that was confirmed by a buddy who is a PG county cop). The tire smoke had nothing to do with the accident, the crown vic was maybe trying to shoot a video or something for streetfire/youtube, that no one could confirm. The crown vic was hit by the cruiser, some of the damage in the pics can only be explained by that.
This is a tremendous tragedy none the less"
"Ok so I know a few people who were there that night and saw the whole thing happen. This is what I was told from two different people who actually dont know each other and were apparently standing in different areas when the accident occurred.
The 2 cars racing did their respective burnouts and then staged. There was NO smoke from the burnout when they launched, it had all dissipated. There was a white ex-cop car with no lights on tailing the two but no one knew it was there so when the cars launched everyone crowded into the street to see who won. The crown vic was accelerating when people ran out in front of it and the driver apparently hit his brakes and slid the car to the side to try and avoid hitting the crowd. The part I have a hard time believing but again this is what I was told is that a Semi was cruising down the road at that exact same time and the driver saw nothing, not the crown vic or the crowd. The Semi apparently creamed the crown vic sending it into a spin and in the process the crown vic spun into several people after being hit by the Semi. One of the guys I talked to said when the racers launched he saw the crown vic out of the corner of his eye and immediately grabbed his girlfriend and pulled her back. They were just far enough back to avoid everything, others were not so lucky.
What I know/ been told is:
That section of road is a common route for tractor trailers so the fact that one was there is not unusual. The crown vic was NOT a undercover cop!!! (heard that rumor too but that was confirmed by a buddy who is a PG county cop). The tire smoke had nothing to do with the accident, the crown vic was maybe trying to shoot a video or something for streetfire/youtube, that no one could confirm. The crown vic was hit by the cruiser, some of the damage in the pics can only be explained by that.
This is a tremendous tragedy none the less"
#103
Senior Moderator
this is the kind of infos I was almost expecting to see develop as time progressed..
#105
Morbid
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Maryland
Age: 46
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Small update
The person driving the Vic, his license has been suspended since January. He should have never been driving that night to begin with. Comming home from band practice my ass.
Update
Update
![Annoyed](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/annoyed.gif)
#106
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by ncinirator
The person driving the Vic, his license has been suspended since January. He should have never been driving that night to begin with. Comming home from band practice my ass.
Update![Annoyed](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/annoyed.gif)
Update
![Annoyed](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/annoyed.gif)
#109
Originally Posted by ncinirator
The person driving the Vic, his license has been suspended since January. He should have never been driving that night to begin with. Comming home from band practice my ass.
Update![Annoyed](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/annoyed.gif)
Update
![Annoyed](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/annoyed.gif)
I can't believe he hasn't been charged.... yet. No mention of a semi in the story, so he was going too fast and slammed on the brakes which caused him to swerve. I feel bad for his younger brother who had to witness all of that.
#110
teh Senior Instigator
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Huntington Beach, CA -> Ashburn, VA -> Raleigh, NC -> Walnut Creek, CA
Age: 42
Posts: 44,090
Received 957 Likes
on
328 Posts
how do you not get brought up on any charges (atleast involuntary manslaughter) while running over a group of people and having a suspended license.
#111
Team Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Age: 41
Posts: 36,474
Received 249 Likes
on
175 Posts
Originally Posted by CLpower
how do you not get brought up on any charges (atleast involuntary manslaughter) while running over a group of people and having a suspended license.
Because what business do 50 people have standing in the middle of a highway at 3am? They aren't pedestrians.
The street racing spectators, the ones who were killed, are to blame for their own actions. No one forced them out on to the highway, no one made them go watch the races that night. They choose to be there, to be an accomplice to a crime, and had no reason or right of way to be standing in a highway, who's speed limit is 55 MPH and routinely traveled at 70+
We need some more personal responsibility in this world...
#112
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by mrsteve
Because what business do 50 people have standing in the middle of a highway at 3am? They aren't pedestrians.
The street racing spectators, the ones who were killed, are to blame for their own actions. No one forced them out on to the highway, no one made them go watch the races that night. They choose to be there, to be an accomplice to a crime, and had no reason or right of way to be standing in a highway, who's speed limit is 55 MPH and routinely traveled at 70+
We need some more personal responsibility in this world...
The street racing spectators, the ones who were killed, are to blame for their own actions. No one forced them out on to the highway, no one made them go watch the races that night. They choose to be there, to be an accomplice to a crime, and had no reason or right of way to be standing in a highway, who's speed limit is 55 MPH and routinely traveled at 70+
We need some more personal responsibility in this world...
If I stand in the middle of a train track and I get run over by a train at the hands of conductor on a suspended license, can my family sue the conductor for negligence?
edit: took the drunk part out, in this day and age I think they COULD sue if that was the case.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
Last edited by srika; 02-28-2008 at 11:44 AM.
#113
Team Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Age: 41
Posts: 36,474
Received 249 Likes
on
175 Posts
Originally Posted by srika
If I stand in the middle of a train track and I get run over by a train at the hands of a drunken conductor on a suspended license, can my family sue the conductor for negligence?
You can sue anyone for anything. Judgment might not go in your favor though.
And in a civil trial you only need to be held responsible, not guilty of the crime. See: OJ Simpson.
They clearly don't have enough of a case against the guy to charge him. The guy wasn't drunk but he was on a suspended license. That's doesn't take away the fact that 50 people had no business standing in the middle of a highway at 3am.
#114
Disinformation Terminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NorCal
Age: 55
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by CLpower
how do you not get brought up on any charges (atleast involuntary manslaughter) while running over a group of people and having a suspended license.
#115
Disinformation Terminator
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NorCal
Age: 55
Posts: 1,930
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mrsteve
They clearly don't have enough of a case against the guy to charge him.
#116
luvs redheads!
steve normally you have valid points but people are pointing out the news etc are blaming this as a cause of streetracing...however there are VALID indications something amiss was going on. Since the first time i read this i knew something was VERY fishy and all i hear from my mother..."o did hear about that street racing crash"...nothing more pisses me off.
Sure streetracing is not good. However its not their fault that a guy drove without his lights on...and why is his license suspended??? probably cuz the kid is a effing moron to begin with.
Normally people see a car headed directly at them at night...unless they are clinically blind.
Sure streetracing is not good. However its not their fault that a guy drove without his lights on...and why is his license suspended??? probably cuz the kid is a effing moron to begin with.
Normally people see a car headed directly at them at night...unless they are clinically blind.
#117
Team Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Age: 41
Posts: 36,474
Received 249 Likes
on
175 Posts
Originally Posted by swift22
steve normally you have valid points but people are pointing out the news etc are blaming this as a cause of streetracing...however there are VALID indications something amiss was going on. Since the first time i read this i knew something was VERY fishy and all i hear from my mother..."o did hear about that street racing crash"...nothing more pisses me off.
Sure streetracing is not good. However its not their fault that a guy drove without his lights on...and why is his license suspended??? probably cuz the kid is a effing moron to begin with.
Normally people see a car headed directly at them at night...unless they are clinically blind.
Sure streetracing is not good. However its not their fault that a guy drove without his lights on...and why is his license suspended??? probably cuz the kid is a effing moron to begin with.
Normally people see a car headed directly at them at night...unless they are clinically blind.
Regardless of something being fishy going on. Regardless of people street racing. 50 people with their own free will decided to go stand in the middle of a highway and be accomplices to a crime (street racing). I've been to the races. People watching are racers themselves, are participating in illegal gambling, etc.
There is no excuse for 50 adults to be standing in the middle of a highway at 3am in the morning. These weren't innocent bystanders or children playing on the sidewalk. These were all people involved in the street racing in one form or another who all willingly went to the spot that night. A large portion of the blame needs to fall on the victim's own shoulders for being stupid enough to stand in the middle of a highway which at that hour has cars and trucks traveling at 70+MPH.
Darwin wins again here...
#118
Senior Moderator
Furthermore - and correct me if I'm wrong - but, by law, cops could have - at the very least - given tickets to each and every person standing there watching the race.
#119
Team Owner
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Age: 41
Posts: 36,474
Received 249 Likes
on
175 Posts
Originally Posted by srika
Furthermore - and correct me if I'm wrong - but, by law, cops could have - at the very least - given tickets to each and every person standing there watching the race.
Not currently a law on the books in Maryland. The following day or two it was brought up by a state legislator though.
#120
Senior Moderator
oic. I think in Illinois they can.