97BlackAckCL

iTrader: (6)

Costco

A small window indeed but then that still reflects poorly on the driver. If you're tired, and especially at 3 or 4 in the morning you shouldn't be driving anyway! And who knows, they could have been speeding at maybe 80-90+ (which is over the speed limit) and hit the brakes but they were still going too fast for the conditions, which resulted in the needless deaths of 8 people. I've had a few instances where I was too tired to drive and had other people take over, or I'd just park it somewhere safe and take a nap.

Hypothetically, if this thread were about a group of 50 people crossing the highway in REALLY foggy weather, and the same people hit 8 people I'm sure we would all be blaming the driver now, wouldn't we? Or would we blame the fog?

We can only speculate for now and I'm certain that the Crown Vic driver didn't do it on purpose, but I just don't see anyway how they aren't at fault here. I'm not saying they should be charged with anything, but this tragedy could have been averted if they took another course of action.

These threads are made for speculation.... what are we gonna do, sit around and twiddle our thumbs while we wait for results and for statements to clear? Speculation makes it interesting.... otherwise all these threads would suck ass. I'm not making any outlandish theories or anything either.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

To say people shouldn't drive if they're tired is silly. If that was the case no one would make their Monday morning commute to work. But yeah, you shouldn't drive if you're so tired that you're falling asleep behind the wheel, but I wasn't saying maybe the driver was about to fall asleep or anything. My point is that there's multiple factors that can play into someone's reaction time. Someone driving at 1 PM during daylight probably has a better reaction time than that very same person driving in the dark at 3-4 AM. So does that mean no one should be driving in the dark and if they do they're doing something wrong and endangering people's lives? No. Also, what if the person was older. Does that mean because they're old they shouldn't be driving? No, it just means they don't have as quick a reaction as someone younger. What is a fact and what is known is that there were people standing in the middle of a highway in the dark. Are you ever antisipating people standing in the middle of a highway when you're crusing along at the speed limit? I don't.

Actually I'd blame the 50 people for crossing the highway in fog. In fact, even if there was no fog I'd blame anyone for standing in the middle of a highway where there could be a car coming. I honestly don't think smoke from burning rubber can be compared to REALLY foggy weather anyway.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would you not charge them if they were at fault? If they were at fault then they deserve to have action taken against them. I don't think drunk drivers go out to intentionally kill people, but the truth is it happens and when it does they need to be held accountable because they could've averted it by not driving after drinking. Again, that's why you leave it to the investigators to do what they do best and determine what the true cause of the accident was.

No, I never thought you were being outlandish, but dude, you're 19 years old. You've been driving for what, 3 years? Have you even ever been in an accident before? If not then when it does happen you'll realize that even though you think you're always in control, sometimes you aren't. I thought I would never be in a sitation where I wouldn't have quick enough reaction time, but truth be told things happen much faster than you think they do, so that's why I think it's a little unfair to start blaming the person the Crown Vic for doing something wrong until they were proven to have done something wrong. And no, not all threads are about speculation and entertainment. I don't think the OP started this thread to entertain anyone, it was more to educate about the dangers of street racing and for people to pay their respects to the deceased.

Costco

The difference here is that people need to get to work, and they tend to gradually become more awake as they drive. When driving at 3 or 4 am though, you get more tired. Yes, this is another assumption, but it does make sense, right? You mentioned that they may have been tired, not sleepy tired, but it does reach a point where it affects your reaction and you need to realize that that is unsafe. If you are tired enough that you swerve over to oncoming traffic and kill someone in a head-on, that is your fault. And I never said you shouldn't drive at 3-4 AM, I do it mainly because I am awake and in a conscious and awake enough to drive safely. Otherwise I let other people drive for me or I sleep in my car or at someone's house. I would never anticipate people on the highway at night.... and neither would I anticipate a cloud of smoke. But I would see cars stopped in the middle of the road, doing a brakestand, burning out and leaving a cloud of smoke from quite a ways, even at night. Don't they teach look to look ahead of the road, and not just at the road ahead of you? You can see brake lights from quite a ways away, unless all the bulbs on both cars were out, which is highly unlikely. Still, there is no acceptable excuse to warrant the Crown Vic driver to do what they did. They shouldn't be convicted of anything unless it was deemed intentional, but either way they should be required to go take driving school.

Every single party here, from the street racers, to the crowd, to the Crown Vic driver, all demonstrated poor judgment. Alright, lets just say the cloud of smoke was from someone seafoaming their car. Have you seen those clouds before? Lets say it was a cloud 3 blocks long, and you couldn't see worth a damn through it. Would you keep driving through it without being able to see anything? Exactly. And how do you know how thick/bad the cloud is until you drive through it? So the best option is to not drive through it. Who knows, you might have to stop in the middle of the smoke and someone could rear end you. At that point, seeing your car's rear in pieces, you would blame the person who rear ended you, wouldn't you? Or would you blame yourself for stopping in the smoke?

Why not? If they had slowed down enough or waited until the smoke cleared, this tragedy wouldn't have happened. Drunk driving is an entirely different thing. Alcohol can severely affect your reflexes, senses, and most importantly of all your judgment.... to the point where it is illegal. There is no law forbidding driving while you're tired though, thats up to the driver to decide.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. Driver A is drunk enough to sway off course and kill a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Driver A is charged for manslaughter. I agree. Driver B is tired enough to sway off course and kill a pedestrian on the sidewalk. Driver B is charged for manslaughter. I agree with both cases, don't you? Actually, I'm beginning to think the Crown Vic driver should be charged with something, although manslaughter is too severe because of the road conditions. Nonetheless they still had poor judgment and should attend driving school at the least.

I've been in 4 accidents, 2 while I was driving, which was a 1-car accident (obviously my fault) and another time when I was rear-ended at a left on a red. The 1-car accident was a perfect example, I lost control of my car while driving at the limit, but I realized what I did wrong right as it happened and learned a lesson because of it. I can't believe it.... if you don't care the correct course of action before you approach the cloud of smoke, then you are CLEARLY doing something wrong. This is just a guess, but the Crown Vic must have been going at least 40+ mph in order to kill 8 people.

I don't think threads like these would be interesting at all (I think it is interesting now) if it was just 3-5 pages of , condolences to the family, etc. That's great and all but at one point it just turns to clutter. Some topics are almost certain to deviate, but in this case we're still on-topic. I'm a cautious driver so I'm just examining the situation how I'd see it. Instantly when I read about the cloud of smoke I was like wtf, why were they going so fast? Some things you just respond to instantly, like seeing someone's brake lights. I don't see how you can shrug off a big ass cloud of smoke.

Put yourself in the Crown Vic driver's shoes. If you were them, and you saw a cloud of smoke (that you couldn't see through) on the highway, would you drive through it? Damn right.... next time you'll either slow to a crawl, stop completely or even pull over. You can bet for damn sure short of brain damage or the influence of drugs that they won't be hauling ass through a thick cloud of smoke.

We should stop feeling bad and making excuses for the driver of the Crown Vic and think about what went wrong with them.... the focal point is the street racers, but they weren't the ones who plowed through a cloud of smoke and shortly thereafter, a crowd of people. Excuses are excuses, but when people die, there are no excuses.

MWalsh9152

I cant believe the dumbass' were actually standing on a smoke filled highway in the middle of the night? Darwinism at its very best.

goose25

I think that the report said that it was near dawn, either way what the fcuk were those people of advanced age doing out there watching a street race?

phile

^ LOL @ people of advanced age

I'm kinda numb to the these people's deaths. that's what happens when you support this type dumb shit.

michimonster

good. idiots.

goose25

One of the dead people is listed as being 61, you would think that someone of that age would have a little more common sense than to be standing around a dimly lit highway near dawn watching an illegal race. He should have had his ass at home eating malt-o-meal or something.

GreenMonster

Wrong forum AND a repost

Moving and merging...

Maximized

I love how everyone is blaming the street racers and the bystanders. Street racing didn't cause this incident. The majority of the blame lies with the idiot in the Crown Vic driving WITHOUT his lights. I wouldn't doubt that the Police cite him in the coming days. I wouldn't be shocked to hear that alcohol played a factor as well.

enigmaos

iTrader: (4)

Costco

Thank you!!!

People instantly see "street race" and blame the street racers for everything no matter the situation. And I seemed to have missed the part where the article said they were driving without their lights... that settles it. That is a fact, and now there's no doubt in my mind that they should be charged.

srika

ohh.. now that's a little (important) detail I missed...

FiveLiterCheater

On the news last night, they said it hasnt been confirmed if they were driving with the lights off...

Maximized

That's what witness said, per the article.

Like I said, I wouldn't doubt that alcohol was involved. The driver should be held somewhat accountable for not slowing for conditions

srika

If the driver did not have his lights on, and was driving in the dark, well that's pretty dumb.

Paclark01

Being a MD resident, the outcome doesn't surprise me.

PG County, and MD State Police have been working on curbing street racing for years. Unfortunately, there are members on this forum who have been doing the same thing, bragging about it, and disregarding the safety of others on the road.

The situation is horrible, and it's a shame the dead have to tell us this story.

phile

Ummm....if they weren't standing around watching the damn street racers, idiot in the Crown Vic without his lights would've ran into a pole or something else, and not them. So yeah, i still blame them.

Maximized

I don't know the road, but it wasn't a highway from the looks of it. Standing next to a road isn't a crime. The driver of the Crown Vic should have slowed down, simple as that. If you see smoke, fog, etc., it's common sense to slow down. I am not blaming the driver entirely. All I am saying is that he was also at fault it appears from everything that I've read.

charliemike

If it's where I think it is, it's a four-lane highway (two lanes each direction). It's not far from DC in Southern MD.

For people to be standing on the side of the road watching this on a highway of this size, I'd say there's a huge inbreeding problem in that area or perhaps there's a high concentration of lead in their water or paint.

g1underground

iTrader: (1)

Very well said
And to add to it Budd's Creek Dragstrip is nearby.

Scottman111

Sad, but easily avoidable

slobeatz

I figured I'd jump in here on the fog issue. M any people actually speed up in fog because creates a visual illusion of slow motion.

To add to that, think of any main road in your town. At that time in the morning would you expect a crowd to be in the middle of the damn road?

enigmaos

iTrader: (4)

street racers and crown vic driver are both at fault and responsible.

the racers should have organized the races on a track - legal and safe.
the crown vic driver should have slowed down when he/she saw dense smoke and smell of burning tires.

srika

did you all see this video?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/16/dra...ap/index.html#

what do you think now?

enigmaos

iTrader: (4)

the crown vic driver is innoncent.

srika

hehe.. what do you mean, you don't trust CNN?

enigmaos

iTrader: (4)

CNN, eh.

srika

yea

enigmaos

iTrader: (4)

ot: that's a fast response. lol

anyway, it's a tragedy. the investigation will take time.

srika

yeah. and like many other big incidents like this, we will find out more details over time.

CLpower

if he had his lights on, it'd be even dumber for running into a group of people.

I've admitted on this board that i've street raced (not the i see you on the freeway shit). But the shut down an industrial park or an empty highway and run them. I've seen accidents don't get me wrong, but i've also seen people die in the stands at races at the track.

Street racing is where drag racing started, it'll never go away (it is why there is a performance aftermarket industry). Simply for the fact that there also aren't that many tracks around.



We've had the argument before, but splitting lanes on a hwy and running two cars side by side on an empty road are much different things in my opinion.




It's funny people bring up the age.....go head out to Sylmar around midnight on a Tuesday night and check out the street races. Most the guys AREN'T under 40....and i'm not talking about honda civics, i'm talking about 8-9 second cars running on an empty road.

jayunsplanet

iTrader: (1)

6 of the 8 deceased...
Mark Courtney, 33
Daryl Wills, 38
Maycol Lopez, 20
Blaine Briscoe, 49
William Gaines, 61
Ervin Gardner, 39

My opinion that I wrote on my site...
http://www.mdstreetscene.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=14820
http://www.mdstreetscene.com/special...cokeek-MD.html

If there wasn't street racing, there wouldn't be a crowd of people in the street. Street racing caused the people to be in the street. There would be no accident with 8 people dead w/ out the street racing. End of story.

Point being, those people who died, died because they were in a street watching a street race under their own accord. Yes, they wanted to watch it. No, the racers didn't hold a gun to their head and demand they stand in the street. Sure, the people in the road are at fault for what happened. And it sucks that they died in such a worthless way.

However, the racers are also to blame for what happened. They created an illegal situation in which they saw that many others were witnessing. Hindsight is 20/20, but maybe if the racers cared about others safety, they would have not agreed to race with a big crowd on the side of the road that eventually spilled out into the road. Everybody seems to be making a big deal about how these races are "organized" and cars are trailered in and the people are mature and blah blah. But I suppose in the heat of the excitement, you aren't really thinking about anything other than that 1/4 mile straight away... In a street race on public roads you CAN'T do that. On a track, sure, you can completely focus on your car, your launch, etc. without worrying about people/animals/cars darting out in front of you.

I still hold my belief that if there wasn't a street race going on, there would not have been a crowd of people in the street and there wouldn't be 8 people dead from watching street racing.

In response to someone else's comment.
Agreed. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT. People need to stop creating made-up "what ifs". What happened happened. It happened because they were gathering to watch an illegal street race at 3 in the morning on a public road. Even if the driver of the white Crown Vic was drunk, high, 2ft tall, and had a stuck accelerator pedal... there would be no problem with that had the road been clear!!! But instead there was a crowd gathered!!! 8 people are now dead. All of this could have been avoided.

I wasn't speaking of "blame" in terms of law, I was speaking more in terms of personal accountability. However, I am not familiar enough with the law to say whether or not they are legally responsible. That's for a judge to decide. But on a human level, law aside, I believe those racers have a tremendous part in the deaths. And if I were one of those 2 racers, I would feel absolutely guilty for being a part of the deaths of 8 people who were watching me partake in illegal activity... knowing that if I would have stopped to think for a second... I could have forgone the race or demanded that the race take place without spectators. (If it was really me, it wouldn't have happened at all.)

Well, that's a tough call. But I would say that I do agree with that statement and I would put blame on every single person who launched on that road that night. But, the ultimate fate was decided by those 2 racers and that single race. That's when people died. That's what those guys have to live with. And unfortunately, they might have to pay for their actions...

But we also need to find out the whole truth about this white Crown Vic and squash any rumors/hear-say about lights out, drunk, running from police, etc. The fate and blame could change a bit depending on the factors revolving around the Crown Vic.

Opinion from a ex-police officer who is current with police "happenings"

srika

I felt the same way. There is cause, and there is effect. 5% going to the Crown Vic driver sounds very reasonable to me.

stogie1020

They will send the headlights off to a lab to determine from the filaments if they were on or off at the time of collision. None the less, the racers and spectators are the ones to be blamed for this tragedy.

CLpower

I'm just curious.....let's say there is an accident on the hwy, and about 20 people out on the road helping out with the accident. A car somehow doesn't see it....goes plowing into those 20 people....who is at fault?

srika

There would have been a traffic jam by the time 20 people got to the scene and were out on the highway helping. Sure an approaching driver could slam into cars in the jam - would it be their fault, yes. Also, street racing would not be involved. An accident, is an accident. Street racing is not an accident.

CLpower

Where do you think all the people that came to the street race had parked? You don't think they had cars ont he side of the road, like there would be in an accident?


A crowd is a crowd...how you don't see a crowd is beyond me......running into either crowd would be the drivers fault IMO.

srika

without being there, do you have any idea how it looked for the Crown Vic driver as he approached?