C/D investigation into the NISMO 370Z crash

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Old 05-05-2010 | 04:06 PM
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C/D investigation into the NISMO 370Z crash

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ng_lap-feature

Very interesting read. the 335I reference validates the car and bimmer nick Seriously its a big safety issue, and a WARNING to 370Z owners who plan on tracking their cars:

1. custom fab brake cooling ducts
1. change your stock performance brake pads
2. Upgrade your fluid.

Serious R&D engineering goof up in Japan.
Old 05-05-2010 | 04:15 PM
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cool
Old 05-05-2010 | 04:26 PM
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And to think these guys made the GT-R.
Old 05-05-2010 | 04:32 PM
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Hmm...Let's see what happens!
Old 05-05-2010 | 07:30 PM
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Funny nobody else I have ever heard from has had this problem....
Old 05-05-2010 | 07:34 PM
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do they hit the tracks?

you have to admit that nissan did some ghey job on this one. Did you read the article at all?

They matter-of-factly reported that the Z’s stock brake pads were designed primarily for low noise and low dust, and not for racetrack situations. It’s our view, however—and we don’t think we’re alone—that the NISMO Z, an even sportier version of a sports car, should be equipped with brakes competent enough to survive a few hot laps. And it’s worth noting that we’ve never experienced such hellacious brake degradation in the history of our Lightning Lap events.
come on now..

Last edited by JS + XES; 05-05-2010 at 07:37 PM.
Old 05-05-2010 | 07:43 PM
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Dude, there are countless guys on 370Z.com that track their cars daily, not to mention the hundreds of other car mags that tested this car on track and ONLY C/D ever had this happen. Doesn't that seem weird to you?
Old 05-05-2010 | 07:51 PM
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No, it doesn't seem weird to me.

Why does it seem weird to you anyway? You think C/D did this on purpose?

Nissan gave them NISMO 370Z to do the LLap, and this happend.

What's so weird about it?
Old 05-05-2010 | 08:15 PM
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Even the worst brake pads shouldnt have done that, especially on a car that is sport orientated.
Old 05-05-2010 | 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JS + MS3
No, it doesn't seem weird to me.

Why does it seem weird to you anyway? You think C/D did this on purpose?

Nissan gave them NISMO 370Z to do the LLap, and this happend.

What's so weird about it?
Well, I just think its ridiculous to make a blanket claim that all 370Z's have sub-standard brake pads because there was one particular incident with one particular car. I also think that had there been any kind of driver error incolved, it might be convenient for C/D to do a little "blame the car" routine, especially considering that this appears to be far from a common occurence....
Old 05-05-2010 | 11:11 PM
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^ I still don't know why you are trying to defend Nissan on this one because clearly it was Nissan's fault of not getting the right brake system on the high end trim of its sports car.

If you had just said that NISMO 370Z was probably a lemon, then I would have perfectly understood that. However, you seem like you are just trying to defend Nissan no matter what. I wonder why.
Old 05-05-2010 | 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JS + MS3
^ I still don't know why you are trying to defend Nissan on this one because clearly it was Nissan's fault of not getting the right brake system on the high end trim of its sports car.

If you had just said that NISMO 370Z was probably a lemon, then I would have perfectly understood that. However, you seem like you are just trying to defend Nissan no matter what. I wonder why.
How could you even make such and outlandish claim? Considering the C&D incident is the only known occurance of anything of this sort occuring among hundreds of thousands of Z owners, I think Majin SSJ Eric has a reason to defend Nissan in this instance.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JS + MS3
^ I still don't know why you are trying to defend Nissan on this one because clearly it was Nissan's fault of not getting the right brake system on the high end trim of its sports car.

If you had just said that NISMO 370Z was probably a lemon, then I would have perfectly understood that. However, you seem like you are just trying to defend Nissan no matter what. I wonder why.
Oh and if you read the article it's a brake fade issue as a result of the brakes not being able to cool quickly enough.

C&D stated themselves that a better fluid would not prevent brake fade this severe, nor would upgraded pads.

The car needs slotted or drilled rotors and then it would preform better. Or even cooling ducts.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:26 AM
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I'm interested in meeting all of those people that are said to be "tracking" their car daily. Is that their job or....? :P

Nissan's only strong point last decade was their sportscars/supercars, the Z and GT-R. The rest of their lineup is a bunch of ho-hum save maybe the Maxima.

And if there are quality issues with the two cars they got right....I've just really begun to lose faith in the Japanese brands.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:33 AM
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I'm hoping that this is an isolated incident.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:37 AM
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Pretty much all Japanese automakers are having so much problem from last year.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:38 AM
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^
I know...it's sad.
Old 05-06-2010 | 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JS + MS3
Pretty much all Japanese automakers are having so much problem from last year.
They are also producing cars with 350HP V6's. Maybe you can pardon this one mistake
Old 05-06-2010 | 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by princelybug
this is an isolated incident.
fixed
Old 05-06-2010 | 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Funny nobody else I have ever heard from has had this problem....

Actually a TON of people have had issues with the newer style brakes. They are having issues with soft rotors, to early failure on the track. Reason why many are replacing the rotors and pads very early in life.

I loved my Brembos on my NISMO 350Z, never failed the few times with the stock pads, but I upgraded them later to better pads, lines and fluid.
Old 05-06-2010 | 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Dude, there are countless guys on 370Z.com that track their cars daily, not to mention the hundreds of other car mags that tested this car on track and ONLY C/D ever had this happen. Doesn't that seem weird to you?
Love how you are lying to support Nissan.
Old 05-06-2010 | 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
Even the worst brake pads shouldnt have done that, especially on a car that is sport orientated.
If the pads aren't designed to take the heat, they will fade and fast. Most stock pads and some aftermarkets this will happen. To stop it, you need to do some minor upgrades to the brake systems.

Brembo equipment usually has more tendency to not do stuff like this, reason why the 350z never had issues like this on the Brembo equipped cars.
Old 05-06-2010 | 07:56 AM
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If this is happening to a 'TON' of people, surely we can provide links to forums where people are complaining about this?

Surely, it would be an easy thing to see for ourselves.
Old 05-06-2010 | 07:59 AM
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Go ahead. You will see many upgrading their brakes due to rotors being too soft, and pads fading early. The car overheats easy, and has rear diff failures. The 370z has many issues that will cause it to fail on the track. I have been a Z enthusiast for a very long tine and owned Z's myself with my most recent 07 NISMO 350Z.

www.the370z.com
Old 05-06-2010 | 08:02 AM
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One quick search. Here is an example of autox doing it to the pads, and autox isn't near the torture a track does.

http://www.the370z.com/track-autocro...ds-auto-x.html
Old 05-06-2010 | 08:42 AM
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Well, obviously most people that track their cars usually do small things like upgrade the fluid and the lines. Some even switch to racing pads. My point is that C/D is trying to make the claim that the 370Z is somehow far inferior to every other road car out there. If this issue was as they say it is, why hasn't any other car jounalist brought this up?

Here is a post from an avid member of 370Z.com who tracks his car very often. Interesting what he had to say about the brakes his first time out in the car:

My First Trackday Review - 2/28/09

Well, I am home safe with the Z after a beautiful day at the track. I purposely left the car completely stock for this first track event so I could get a good feeling for how the car behaves. The only thing I did have to change was the brake fluid, for safety reasons. I used the one thing my mechanic had available. Super BLUE, which isn't bad actually. I will divide the review into different sections to make it easier to read. As a disclaimer here, all my "ratings" are comparing the Z to other track worthy cars I've driven or been in around the track. (GT-R, GT3, STi, 350Z, etc...so a wide range.) I have a feeling some of you will find it a bit harsh, but then again, it is stock and the competition is rough.

Engine:

The engine in this car is a little hard to describe. Its not bad and its not weak, but it is a little lazy and it lacks punch in the bottom end. It vibrates a LOT at higher RPMs and it just doesn't feel all that refined. The exhaust is too quiet as well. I have to say I was racing in Advanced and everyone there had very fast cars with racing compounds; so I felt very slow today. I just need more power and more responsiveness from the engine. Definitely had to use all those revs to keep it in the power band. The fact that I didn't want to rev past 6k didn't help me much either (break in? lol) I didn't want to put 100% of the engine today, I'd say I used about 90% of it. So what it needs is a lighter flywheel, intake, exhaust and a supercharger. The other biggie was of course...engine oil temperature... what a pain in the ***, I didnt get more than 10 minutes into any of my 25 minute sessions because of overheating. I just took it back in and let it cool down, after all its still breaking in right? One thing that I think helped was to turn the heat on full blast... that apparently circulates the coolant through another radiator. I think it may have helped a bit, but it only delayed the inevitable. Oil cooler is going to be a huge mod for the 09 version of the car, maybe they will fix this ridiculous issue for '10. On the positive side...the engine is well matched to the transmission and it makes some nice power when it gets into the powerband at higher RPM. If you somehow manage to forget the vibration, it is a smooth engine. It delivers the power predictably and smoothly.
Rating 6/10.

Brakes:
OK, this one is going to help the overall average. The brakes on this car are much much better than I expected. As I said, the only thing I changed was the brake fluid so the setup was completely stock. There was no fading at all in any of the sessions. I could actually brake pretty late and the pedal was solid. The rotors held up and the brake pads were very good for stock street pads. Good job Nissan on this part. I am only going to change the pads and the brake lines here.
Rating 9/10
http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...z-journal.html

As I said, if these failures were endemic to all Z-cars due to bad engineering by Nissan, wouldn't more people have been raising the issue all along? Wouldn't other car mags that have tested this car just as hard as C/D noticed this fatal design flaw?

The reason I am defending Nissan here is that my car has the exact same brakes and I have had no trouble whatsoever. The Akebonos are strong and relatively fade-free for a stock setup; certainly more than you will ever need on the street.
Old 05-06-2010 | 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MyCarIsntInMyWifesName
I'm interested in meeting all of those people that are said to be "tracking" their car daily. Is that their job or....? :P

Nissan's only strong point last decade was their sportscars/supercars, the Z and GT-R. The rest of their lineup is a bunch of ho-hum save maybe the Maxima.

And if there are quality issues with the two cars they got right....I've just really begun to lose faith in the Japanese brands.
Since it looks like you're sticking around and from what I have seen you are contributing very well to the site, when you are ready for a name change to something shorter, let us know
Old 05-06-2010 | 09:04 AM
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Honda sabotaged the car and sold parts to Nissan
Old 05-06-2010 | 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 08a-spec
toyota sabotaged the car and sold parts to nissan
ftfy.
Old 05-06-2010 | 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CocheseUGA
ftfy.
yes!, wrong carmaker, my bad.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Well, obviously most people that track their cars usually do small things like upgrade the fluid and the lines. Some even switch to racing pads. My point is that C/D is trying to make the claim that the 370Z is somehow far inferior to every other road car out there. If this issue was as they say it is, why hasn't any other car jounalist brought this up?

Here is a post from an avid member of 370Z.com who tracks his car very often. Interesting what he had to say about the brakes his first time out in the car:



http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...z-journal.html

As I said, if these failures were endemic to all Z-cars due to bad engineering by Nissan, wouldn't more people have been raising the issue all along? Wouldn't other car mags that have tested this car just as hard as C/D noticed this fatal design flaw?

The reason I am defending Nissan here is that my car has the exact same brakes and I have had no trouble whatsoever. The Akebonos are strong and relatively fade-free for a stock setup; certainly more than you will ever need on the street.
Akebonos are not as strong as the Brembos were of the 350Z. They maybe bigger, but they are more prone to fade and soft rotors. The guy you quoted above, is one of the few members on that site that a few do not like because he thinks he knows it all and has been called out many times.

For that matter, the stock brakes will fade easily in ONE SESSION if he was actually driving it. That is all I will say.
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:48 PM
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well that sucks
Old 05-06-2010 | 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Eoanou
Oh and if you read the article it's a brake fade issue as a result of the brakes not being able to cool quickly enough.
for the being the only one who seems to have actually read the article.

The testing described in THIS article has nothing to do with tracking the car.

We wanted to test the fortitude of these upgraded brake pads for ourselves, so we arranged a back-to-back test of the base pads—like the ones on our Lightning Lap NISMO Z—and the new pads. We used two Sport-package 370Zs (which have the same brake hardware as the NISMO Z). To provide as much context as possible, we employed the same severe methodology  from our 11-vehicle braking showdown [“The Power to Stop,” August 2008]. That consisted of a continuous battery of stops from 100 mph until the performance of the brakes degraded significantly. These 100-mph braking events were broken down into five-stop cycles; we began each cycle with a moderate, 0.5-g stop (that’s about half of the Z’s ultimate braking capability) and measured brake-pedal force and travel for evidence of fade. Four panic stops followed each cycle’s first moderate stop, and we recorded the distance it took the car to come to a standstill. We executed stops every 20 seconds (including the time to accelerate back to 100 mph) and repeated the five-stop cycles until the brakes succumbed to fade. That’s when the brakes get so hot that it causes a reduction in the friction between the pads and the rotors, which leads to longer stopping distances and increased pedal travel, as well as requiring more pedal force.
Old 05-06-2010 | 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
for the being the only one who seems to have actually read the article.

The testing described in THIS article has nothing to do with tracking the car.
The guy who crashed in the lightening lap is the one walking with the cane:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...eature/gallery

From the article
"Our suspicion is that Nissan got a bit greedy in its quest for today’s all-important fuel-economy numbers and boosted the Z’s aerodynamics a little too far by cutting back on the amount of air directed through the wheel wells to cool the brakes. Key takeaway: If you intend to track a Z, don’t use the base pads, upgrade the brake fluid, and be sure to install brake-cooling ducts."
Old 05-07-2010 | 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by turkeybaster115
The guy who crashed in the lightening lap is the one walking with the cane:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...eature/gallery

From the article
"Our suspicion is that Nissan got a bit greedy in its quest for today’s all-important fuel-economy numbers and boosted the Z’s aerodynamics a little too far by cutting back on the amount of air directed through the wheel wells to cool the brakes. Key takeaway: If you intend to track a Z, don’t use the base pads, upgrade the brake fluid, and be sure to install brake-cooling ducts."

Which is why I said 'THIS' (most recent) article. They didn't take the car on another track day. They simply performed a series of panic stops yet got the same results.
Old 05-07-2010 | 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dom
Which is why I said 'THIS' (most recent) article. They didn't take the car on another track day. They simply performed a series of panic stops yet got the same results.
Fair enough, but you'll excuse me if I don't toss my Akebonos into the bin based on this article....
Old 05-07-2010 | 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Fair enough, but you'll excuse me if I don't toss my Akebonos into the bin based on this article....
Agreed. One article/report doesn't make all this factual, although a bit worrisome. But you also have a G37 which may possibly be more effective at cooling the brakes. Either way, this wouldn't stop me from lusting after a 370.
Old 05-14-2010 | 10:45 PM
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I wonder when C/D's going to finish their investigation?
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