Junkster

General stuff...

Hyundai is aiming for a intro luxury badge by the end of 2007. Can you imagine? I wouldn't buy a Hyundai yet, what would make me buy a lux hyundai?
Plus, they want to add a hybrid to the hyundai line... what the hell's going on?

Lexus is seriously planning for a uber sedan as their halo car. This should be interesting.

Looks like Nissan will bring their ubercute mini to the states, with the statement that they are planning a model under the Sentra.

Camry recalll for airbag probs... Toyota quality isn't looking so hot all of a sudden.

Junkster, who can't believe Hyundai is so eager to expand

BuddySol

I believe Chrysler...or one of the Big 3 is considering another brand in the lines of Toyota's Scion. From what the L.A. Times article stated, they may consider just rebadging cars...which will be ineteresting.

phile

They did that years ago with the Eagle brand. If it didn't work the first time...

sauceman

They've been sitting on the reputation of quality they've built for some time now, and they relied on it to push some pretty terrible pieces of shit.

I have had a Toyota sitting in my driveway (and my dad's) for the last 12 years now. The one I have now is an absolute piece of crap in which Toyota decided to cut down on costs and use two-ringed pistons instead of 3 ringed pistons. Can you imagine all the problems this causes?

The Matrix is a very poorly studied car with an overgeared, underpowered and over-revved engine. After one year on the market, they had so many blown 185hp 1.8L engines that on the subsequent years they had to bring the rev-limiter down by 1000rpm. They did this without even revising the gearing in the transmition. Botched all the way.

And don't get me started on the Previa, a by-product of a minivan. (Tough it seems the latest model was brought up to the Odyssey's standards... due to be outdated in september with the arrival of the 2005).

Bring it, 1STICKLEX...

gilboman

actually, the "blown" engines were caused by idiots"read driver" who misshift, the engines themselves are solid. similar to how the 2002 celica GTS got lower redline in the US but rest of the world got the higher redline. its not car companies fault that idiots misshift. a high reving engine with tight 6spd tranny is trouble for people who dont know how to shift.

besides Toyota quality > Honda quality anyways.

iamhomin

Hyundai already has a lux auto in Korea, called "EH KOO"? I may be wrong about the name.

Anyways, the price I believe is somewhere around 90k USD.

sauceman

I told 1STICKLEX to bring it, but I should have included you. Nice try on this post, but you haven't brung it. You could try and improve your argumentation when you come here to bash on Honda. Right now all you do is ask to get owned.

2 things on this:

1st, I have a good friend who himself blew one of these engines on his Matrix This is where I got the info from), and no, it wasn't because of a mis-shift. And Toyota replaced it on warranty.

2nd, if you paid attention to the threads in TSX Talk, you'd see that both myself, and another 97AcuraCL have mis-shifted our cars lately, both sending the rpms in the whereabouts of 8500rpm, and both engines survived without any damage sustained.

So either you go with the explanation you gave and forget about the Toyota>Honda as far as engine quality is concerned, or you decide to believe what I'm telling you about the frailty of that engine.

In any case, you're fucked because what you said you just pulled it straight from your ass.

Yet another worthless gilbo plea about Honda getting owned by Toyota / BMW.

Oh and about the "idiot drivers" who mis-shift comment, shit happens, but what goes around comes around. You better not post about it when it happens to you, because you are so pwned if you do.

biker

That's about the strongest comment from sauceman in some time - gilbo just brings it out in folks.

Who would have thought 30 years ago that Toyota would have one of the best luxo lines? Hyundai can bring out their loxo line but they will have to wait at least 10-20 years before any kind of acceptance. Look at Infiniti - it was virtually dead until the G35 3 years ago but it's looking quite good in the next few years.

sauceman

Here's some data to add to my comment. owns

If Toyota engines are solid, but can't survive a mis-shift, Honda engines sure can, and with higher piston speeds too.

Toyota 2ZZ-GE: Bore/Stroke: 82.04mm X 85.09mm
Piston Speed = 4522.5 ft / minute at redline 8100rpm

Honda K24A2: Bore/Stroke: 87.0mm X 99.00mm
Piston Speed = 4615 ft / minute at redline 7100rpm

And that is not counting the higher piston weight of the K24A2.

Need we expand, gilbo, or are you gonna pull the white flag right away?

1SICKLEX

Sauceman, really. No car is perfect, duh. Toyota/Lexus just do build the highest quality cars. It is their reputation. Of course they will have issues and problems. They just have the least in the industry.

Your basing your hate toward Toyota on your experience, when CLEARLY, since Toyota is now one of the BIG 3 AUTO companies, they know what they are doing.

Honda and Acura make high quality cars too with efficiency and sameness as their reputation. Clearly, it works for them since they sell well with a very limited line-up.

And every car company wants to be BMW.

sauceman

Don't get me wrong, I too think Toyota have a remarkable build quality, probably even better than Honda.

But I don't think they're equal to Honda when it comes to engine building. Honda and BMW are the best when it comes to engines.

What I have a problem with, when it concerns Toyota, is that sometimes, with the examples I brought up, they cut the corners short on some products, and it seems like they're relying on their reputation to make it work.

The fact that they are Top 3 means that they know where they are going, businesswise, one can't deny this. But look at the other 2, and you couldn't exactly say they got there by building quality products. So the sheer fact that Toyota is in the Big 3 isn't the hint of an indication of the quality of their build.

gocubsgo55

Don't forget Porsche and Nissan (Renault, to be more specific.) The Renault Nissan brought to life that potent 3.5L and gave it some awesome torque numbers. Porsche of course can get like 320 hp out of a 3.2L. Honda can get 240 hp out of 2.0L. BMW can rev a v-10 to 8500 RPM!!! All are great engine builders.

Precision Crafted

You forgot that Lexus is recalling '04 LS 430's due to tranny issues.

I too can't imagine a lux Hyundai. The pic of their lux model look ugly. It looks like a dwarfed limo or something. I have a hard time seening them get started. Some of the first Acura dealerships tanked. I will say though that unlike my beloved Acura/Honda, they are willing to develop a RWD platform. I know what that statement could bring on but it rumors are true (and to a point they maybe) and Acura is thinking about a car to compet with the LS's and Q's of the world then if they do not develop RWD then SHawd is the only answer. But a more pressing issue is what platform does Honda have??? At this point they would have to take an Ody platform for the "stretched" look and I'm not sure how much more the current Accord platform can be stretched.

dom

Honda's isn't the world's largest engine manufactuer for nothing.

Poindexter

Here's my conjecture why TMMNA's quality is going down the pooper.

Ever since Toyota has allowed an "American" to run a production plant (i.e. have a position above VP), the quality has gone down because the american culture is all about the $$. Whereas a Japanese superior would more likely concentrate on quality. There's just too much politics between the production plants and the engineers and any one else who wants to complain.

The Matrix, isn't really a good example of Toyota quality since they are made at NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing Initiative or something), a joint venture between Toyota and GM.

gilboman

bwhahahaha.... a 2ZZ wont even consider a 8500rpm anywhere near engine damage area, since fuel cutoff is 8375rpm around.. take a K24 or K20 redline it in 3rd and pop it into 2nd. the most common 2zz 6spd misshift. try it on the K24 or K20 and see if it survives.

and besides its clear HOnda is being owned just by sales numbers and the failure of Acura brand to be anything more than a wannabe luxury brand with rebadged accords when it entered the luxury game first.

biker

I don't know about gilbo - sometimes he might make sense, but I think on this one he got owned.

gocubsgo55

...and i guess the LS, LX, GS, and GX are nothing more than reBUILT (not rebadged, that's too original for Toyota, they gotta get the best from OTHER companies) MB's and Land Rovers? Gilbo have you seen the similarities between many Toyota's in Japan and everyday MB's? The Crown Sedan is plain old S-Class, and the Mark II is an E-class on the inside. Please, don't even start talking about design. Toyota doesn't have R&D, they have F&S, Find and Steal. Gotta love the Toyota design ::errr,excuse me::, "spy team" to be politically correct

here's an example...

PLENTY more where that came from..

dom

Now lets not blame Toyota for blown up 2ZZ motors. Afterall they don't have the know how to develope a engine that revs that high so they had to get Yamaha to built it for them.

biker

Doesn't their F1 engine rev like 18,000RPM? Maybe they need to use some of their F1 know how on regular engines.

dom

Ok, but we're talking production engines that must remain reliable here.

Their F1 know how has produced how many podiums so far?

sauceman

Whoa I just missed that reply I was waiting for.

Gilbo, You don't get it right. RPMs is not an absolute indication: piston speed is. This thread indicates who's on top when it comes to piston speeds: http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13223

And as for a 3-2 misshift, I did exactly that with my K24, yes, and sustained no damage whatsoever. I actually took it back to the track twice since then, beat the shit out of the engine, tranny and all, and came back with the best ¼ time for a stock TSX yet.

So now I'm going to tell it to you again: "So either you go with the explanation you gave and forget about the Toyota>Honda as far as engine quality is concerned, or you decide to believe what I'm telling you about the frailty of that engine."

And learn to read posts before you reply: half of this post is just repeating what I've already written earlier.

Actually, please don't. You're just too much fun like you are.

Edited to add: Like the ES330 isn't a rebadge of a Camry! Puhleaase...

sauceman

You're right, but their F1 problem is not engine-related. It's mostly related to a horrendous chassis.

This should be solved next year since they stole Renault's Chief Engineer responsible for Renault successes in the past 2 years.

1SICKLEX

All this Toyota Bashing is real cute. 2JZ ownsz you. Honda can't BEGIN to build anything as powerful STOCK (320hp) let alone modded.
Honda can't build a V-8 close to. Oh wait, they don't have any.
Honda just gave the Accord a V-6 a few years ago. Only the LEGEND had a V-6 for the longest.

Honda DOES, IMO build the best 4-cylinders in the world. Though even LOTUS chose to use the Celicia GTS I-4 instead of the RSX-Type S I-4 in the incredible Elise.
The S2000 motor (another I-4) is a GEM. Simply a high-revving, full of character engine.
The TSX engine is another great 4 cylinder.
The Accord V-6 is great, though 240hp in a car going to Wal-mart and Starbucks makes me scratch my head.
The 3.2 TL engine is wonderful as well (too powerful for the damn tranny), we'll have to wait to see the 3.5 in the RL to pass final judgement but 300hp and 260lbs torque sounds good.

sauceman

Why would Honda not be able to build such an engine? It's not because they haven't built it that they're not able to do it. Slapping a turbo on a 3L and making 320hp with it is no biggie. It doesn't even approach Honda's NA 120hp/L value. What makes you think they couldn't do it when they build an NA 3.2 engine making 270hp with ONE CAM per bank?

Same thing with the V8s. It's not because Honda can't do it, they just choose to use high-performing V6s instead and preserve some fuel economy.

And the Accord V6... Are you that much at a loss for arguments as to bring that up?

phile

LOL@Toyota bashing. Looks like someone's Honda bashing if you ask me. As if the Camry's been available with a V6 all this time as well? WTH does that even have to do with the argument?

gilboman

i sincerely doubt you redlined 3rd, popped it into 2nd and survived if you didnt catch it in time. read around, lots of GTS have survivied and many havent as well from a redline 3rd to a 2nd, it depends if you catch it in time.

gilboman

yamaha builds the head of the 2zz only, but honda doesnt even know how to make the basic brakes and slushboxes after all this time. its so sad that even a corolla outbrakes a RSX-S

biker

I see thread closure in the not too distant future.

sauceman

We could say the same for BMW. Does that make a Bimmer less apt in your eyes than a Toyota?

And you can sincerely doubt I misshifted from 3rd to 2nd while redlining it what can I say? It happenned at the track, BTW, kind of the place for it to happen. Here's the story: http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/show...=OMG+Mis-shift

Anyways, you know you're out of arguments when you have to resort to a Corolla outbraking an RSX. Just pull the and let's get this over with, you're pathetic.

gilboman

you said you caught it at around 8k rpm, about 1k rpm above redline, most cars will survive that . besides its interesting a corolla will outbreak a RSX-S by 20ft + from 70mph.

phile

How many times do I have to go over this with you? It's the shitty stock tires.

dom

It was turboed you NooB Apples to Apples please.

And by the way. The 2.0L in the RSX-S was Lotus's first choice in motors but Honda told them to go away. It was a Lotus's executives relationship with Toyota that landed them that engine.

Not only is the 2.0L in the RSX greater than the GTS-S's engine but so is the much older (1997) B18C5 from the Type R.

provench

... people ALWAYS overlook that. If you want good brakes ... get a German car anyway

1SICKLEX

Riiiiight. Honda supplies GM with engines but not Lotus

SPUDMTN

Yeah...how stupid...they lost so much money on that deal

phile

Also, sicklex, GM and Honda were in agreement to trade engines...GM gets the 3.5L V6, Honda gets access to Isuzu's diesel for the European market. That was set in stone for some time already.

sauceman

Businesswise, it makes perfect sense. Who are you gonna sell to? Someone who will most probably beat the shit out of your cars and represent a high risk of trouble due to failures because of abuse, or selling in large numbers to a builder who will use the engines in a car that represents near-0 risk in engine abuse?

It's a very sound business choice IMO, especially that when you're selling engines to a carmaker you have less control over what they'll buy back on warranty, only to ship it back to you. So you might as well go with the lower risk.

There probably are many other variables we don't know of as well.

BTW, I'm finding it very interesting to notice that all the folks modding their Elises are ripping out the 2ZZ-Ge only to replace them with... Honda Engines.

gocubsgo55

Aren't/wern't GM I4's also Honda engines as well?

SPUDMTN

Not so sure about this one. If so, how embarassing, because GM I4s sound like poo poo.