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I find that a lot of people, my age & older [late 30s+] seem to harbor a pretty negative impression on Hyundai/Kia
Coworkers that are shocked when I mention that I'd own a Kia no problem (granted the higher end Telluride/Stinger/etc) are quite pricey.
I find that a lot of people, my age & older [late 30s+] seem to harbor a pretty negative impression on Hyundai/Kia
Coworkers that are shocked when I mention that I'd own a Kia no problem (granted the higher end Telluride/Stinger/etc) are quite pricey.
I coulda sworn the latest Hyundai/Kia styles are meant to appease the Millenials!
I find that a lot of people, my age & older [late 30s+] seem to harbor a pretty negative impression on Hyundai/Kia
Coworkers that are shocked when I mention that I'd own a Kia no problem (granted the higher end Telluride/Stinger/etc) are quite pricey.
My sister bought a late 80's (don't remember which year) Hyundai Excel automatic sedan. It was good on gas, but that was about it. It had zero power and burned oil. Lot's of issues with plastic pieces in the interior and was ultimately totaled when she hit a deer. It was a POS. So while I'm a bit older than your reference age above - the sentiment does run deep. With that said, I did recommend to my next door neighbors and they did ultimately, buy a Telluride. They have been very happy with it in their first year of ownership.
Former coworker had a 13 Optima SXL Turbo & traded it in for a 21 Sorrento [high trim, but don't recall which]
Other than negligent damage, and a failed neutral safety switch in the shifter, her Optima was pretty trouble free.
She moved to a new job a couple months after getting the Sorrento, so I don't know how it's holding up for her now.
I'm not certain I trust any list that puts BMW/MINI above Honda/Acura. That said, it's obvious Toyota/Lexus is more reliable but Honda/Acura has a better design.
I almost bought a 2017 Lexus ES for $24k but ended up with a 2013 Acura TL for $11k. I probably would have kept the Lexus for longer and done less work to it, but the Acura was half price...
My sister bought a late 80's (don't remember which year) Hyundai Excel automatic sedan. It was good on gas, but that was about it. It had zero power and burned oil. Lot's of issues with plastic pieces in the interior and was ultimately totaled when she hit a deer. It was a POS. So while I'm a bit older than your reference age above - the sentiment does run deep. With that said, I did recommend to my next door neighbors and they did ultimately, buy a Telluride. They have been very happy with it in their first year of ownership.
The late 80s Excel was indisputably awful. As I recall, the alternator was pretty much a wear item to be replaced more often than the tires.
JD Power typically has done initial reliability, eg: issues in the first few years. And they still might equal weight all complaints, so things like "infotainment system crashed and rebooted" is equal weighted with "transmission failed and had to be replaced". In my experience Honda has substantially deteriorated in the past ten years in build reliability (eg: things that obviously are found in the first year or two and repaired within warranty), which is exactly what JD Power measures. And Acura seems to have its fair share of similar TSB-fixes, etc.
JD Power doesn't measure Honda's core reliability strength: my guess is Honda is still #2 behind Toyota in percent of maintained-on-schedule cars that remain on the road at 200,000 miles. Although I feel they have deteriorated here too, my guess is this percentage is half of Toyota these days, where they probably used to be 80% of Toyota a decade ago.
Hyundai had one of the worse reliability records on the market when they launched their 10 year guarantee to try to turn things around. But despite substantial reported improvements, the long-term reliability is too early to tell, and the news reports of Hyundai trying to weasel out of paying for in-warranty engine failures makes me think their customer focus is still not in the right place.
My experience with Honda and Acura are that they go above and beyond to cover reproducible in-warranty issues, or maybe I just have a really cooperative dealer. I have never had any in-warranty items rejected in my 6 Honda/Acura's I've owned, and even many borderline out-of-warranty items were covered as a customer courtesy.
I find that a lot of people, my age & older [late 30s+] seem to harbor a pretty negative impression on Hyundai/Kia
Coworkers that are shocked when I mention that I'd own a Kia no problem (granted the higher end Telluride/Stinger/etc) are quite pricey.
I used to place Hyundai and Kia together in the “utter garbage” classification. Then I bought that Elantra and was pleasantly surprised. My opinion of Kia never budged, though. But good on them. They've managed to work their way up from zero to hero. Apparently.
But the manufacturer that I believe might truly give Toyota a run for their money is Mazda. Yes, the little elf carmaker. And yes, I still consider Toyota el numero uno. I was very, very, very close to buying an RX-8 not long ago. It's tragic. The thing ran perfectly. It was not burning too much oil, but something was up with the ECU. It was gorgeous. And it was dirt cheap because this poor guy was at his wits end because he had spent so much time and money trying to get it to pass smog..... but this is California. Oh well. Maybe one of these days I'll join the mass exodus and head on over to... I don't know, anyware.
It's tough for the Toyotas/Hondas of the world to maintain greatness for such a long period of time (just ask Tom Brady!). It wouldn't surprise me that other automakers have stepped up to fill any cracks left by the incumbents.
The pandemic made it tough for a lot of people but it also brought opportunity...
I used to place Hyundai and Kia together in the “utter garbage” classification. Then I bought that Elantra and was pleasantly surprised. My opinion of Kia never budged, though. But good on them. They've managed to work their way up from zero to hero. Apparently.
But the manufacturer that I believe might truly give Toyota a run for their money is Mazda. Yes, the little elf carmaker. And yes, I still consider Toyota el numero uno. I was very, very, very close to buying an RX-8 not long ago. It's tragic. The thing ran perfectly. It was not burning too much oil, but something was up with the ECU. It was gorgeous. And it was dirt cheap because this poor guy was at his wits end because he had spent so much time and money trying to get it to pass smog..... but this is California. Oh well. Maybe one of these days I'll join the mass exodus and head on over to... I don't know, anyware.
I agree Mazda should be in Acura's sights and clearly not the Germans. Looking forward to the intro of the CX70 and CX90!
JD Power typically has done initial reliability, eg: issues in the first few years. And they still might equal weight all complaints, so things like "infotainment system crashed and rebooted" is equal weighted with "transmission failed and had to be replaced". In my experience Honda has substantially deteriorated in the past ten years in build reliability (eg: things that obviously are found in the first year or two and repaired within warranty), which is exactly what JD Power measures. And Acura seems to have its fair share of similar TSB-fixes, etc.
JD Power doesn't measure Honda's core reliability strength: my guess is Honda is still #2 behind Toyota in percent of maintained-on-schedule cars that remain on the road at 200,000 miles. Although I feel they have deteriorated here too, my guess is this percentage is half of Toyota these days, where they probably used to be 80% of Toyota a decade ago.
Hyundai had one of the worse reliability records on the market when they launched their 10 year guarantee to try to turn things around. But despite substantial reported improvements, the long-term reliability is too early to tell, and the news reports of Hyundai trying to weasel out of paying for in-warranty engine failures makes me think their customer focus is still not in the right place.
My experience with Honda and Acura are that they go above and beyond to cover reproducible in-warranty issues, or maybe I just have a really cooperative dealer. I have never had any in-warranty items rejected in my 6 Honda/Acura's I've owned, and even many borderline out-of-warranty items were covered as a customer courtesy.
You've been lucky with your dealership. They're not all the same, that's for sure. Most people give up when their request is denied. Don't. Just make your way up the ladder.
So we have 2 competing lists at the moment, one from JD Power and the other from Consumer Reports:
First let's focus on what they agree on since that should represent broad perception:
1) Lexus is Top 5 - I think we can all agree with this!
2) Toyota is Top 10 - I think we can all agree with this if not the absolute ranking itself!
3) Top 15 includes BMW, Nissan, Hyundai, Genesis, Buick, Kia, and Mazda - I think we can easily agree with this!
4) Ram is exactly the 16th ranking on both lists.
5) Mercedes and Ford are towards the bottom of the list.
Now let's focus on what sets the 2 lists apart. First, the CR list is shorter by 7 makers and we'll go one bye one:
a) MINI is missing from the list - not sure of the volume of sales for MINI but CR prob lumped it in with BMW (which makes the BMW rank even more impressive!)
b) Jaguar - inexplicable as I'm pretty sure they still sell cars
c) Mitsubishi - inexplicable as I'm pretty sure they still sell cars
d) Dodge/Chrysler - these are huge American brands not getting representation?!!!
e) Land Rover - well represented in my area and should have been listed
f) Infiniti - how do you list Acura and Lexus but not Infiniti?!!
g) Porsche - you could make an argument to lump MINI into BMW but I would think most folks here would feel Porsche is a big enough brand to stand apart from VW?
JD Power sends its surveys to every maker some time after you pick up your car (w/ the exception of Tesla prob because it has no actual dealers and sells direct to consumer). I'm not sure how CR makes their list but most of the absentees on their list are pretty glaring!
The German cars are nice to drive and luxurious, but when they break down, which will be fairly often, you are going to pay out the ass.
This is such a misnomer and based on what? Oh, Hi VW...My MIL has had 3 now and they've been rock solid. BMW...as long as you're not getting performance variants then they'll be fine. The X3s are considered highly reliable. Ours was great when we had it. Mercedes...no personal experience as they aren't my cup of tea but probably similar to BMW regarding performance variants. Porsche is supposed to be very reliable these days. And I have several friends with Audis who have no issues.
So we have 2 competing lists at the moment, one from JD Power and the other from Consumer Reports:
First let's focus on what they agree on since that should represent broad perception:
1) Lexus is Top 5 - I think we can all agree with this!
2) Toyota is Top 10 - I think we can all agree with this if not the absolute ranking itself!
3) Top 15 includes BMW, Nissan, Hyundai, Genesis, Buick, Kia, and Mazda - I think we can easily agree with this!
4) Ram is exactly the 16th ranking on both lists.
5) Mercedes and Ford are towards the bottom of the list.
Now let's focus on what sets the 2 lists apart. First, the CR list is shorter by 7 makers and we'll go one bye one:
a) MINI is missing from the list - not sure of the volume of sales for MINI but CR prob lumped it in with BMW (which makes the BMW rank even more impressive!)
b) Jaguar - inexplicable as I'm pretty sure they still sell cars
c) Mitsubishi - inexplicable as I'm pretty sure they still sell cars
d) Dodge/Chrysler - these are huge American brands not getting representation?!!!
e) Land Rover - well represented in my area and should have been listed
f) Infiniti - how do you list Acura and Lexus but not Infiniti?!!
g) Porsche - you could make an argument to lump MINI into BMW but I would think most folks here would feel Porsche is a big enough brand to stand apart from VW?
JD Power sends its surveys to every maker some time after you pick up your car (w/ the exception of Tesla prob because it has no actual dealers and sells direct to consumer). I'm not sure how CR makes their list but most of the absentees on their list are pretty glaring!
I currently have a Lexus and a Tesla. The Lexus is a beater that just wont quit, but Im ready to get rid of it just not in a position to do so at the moment. The Tesla is less than 2 years old and has 31k miles and is a tank. I've had several Dodge, Jeep, Alfa products since 2010 and they were all great. I had a Highlander and there were things about it that made me not confident it would be reliable long term.
Point is with all this reliability ranking crap is everyone's experience is different. Data is data based such a wide number. Fact is I think MOST cars today are on a pretty equal playing field. But they are machines, and now computers, and shit happens. Drive what you like and stop being anal over what these companies try and tell you. I put little credence in what any of them have to offer.
I currently have a Lexus and a Tesla. The Lexus is a beater that just wont quit, but Im ready to get rid of it just not in a position to do so at the moment. The Tesla is less than 2 years old and has 31k miles and is a tank. I've had several Dodge, Jeep, Alfa products since 2010 and they were all great. I had a Highlander and there were things about it that made me not confident it would be reliable long term.
Point is with all this reliability ranking crap is everyone's experience is different. Data is data based such a wide number. Fact is I think MOST cars today are on a pretty equal playing field. But they are machines, and now computers, and shit happens. Drive what you like and stop being anal over what these companies try and tell you. I put little credence in what any of them have to offer.
I do agree that the playing field is much more even than in the past. However, complexity does play a part so when I hear that Toyotas/Hondas have easy oil changes while Mercedes may be "overly complex", then it makes sense to me why once brand may be considered more reliable than another.
Service technician quality can vary from dealer to dealer but the simpler you can make a service, the more likely the car will come back to you in its best condition!
Minimal issues with my 2015 W205 C300, apart from it going through tires pretty quickly.
Coworker has the same car, but hers is a 2016. She has something like 150k on it & hasn't had any problems from it outside of consumables.
My other 2 Mercs were 80s diesels with over 300k on both. Transmission (Reverse failed) on the W123 was the only problem between the 2.
My grandmother had 7 S-class from 89-14, no reliability issues on any of them.
Minimal issues with my 2015 W205 C300, apart from it going through tires pretty quickly.
Coworker has the same car, but hers is a 2016. She has something like 150k on it & hasn't had any problems from it outside of consumables.
My other 2 Mercs were 80s diesels with over 300k on both. Transmission (Reverse failed) on the W123 was the only problem between the 2.
My grandmother had 7 S-class from 89-14, no reliability issues on any of them.
I was all set to get a GLC but most models on lots didn't have the hands-free liftgate (ended up with X3).
To add insult to injury, the redesigned GLC that was supposed to hit dealers this April still haven't.
Those are just my Honda/Acura products and that list is not even complete.
That's fine. I can only comment on what I can see.
I've also owned a number of Toyotas and Nissans that I couldn't list due to the 5 line limit in the signature. Point is, I'm only lacking in American and Korean car ownership.
I've never owned anything from the parent Honda company but I've gotten close. Chances are that if I had prior Honda experience, I may have been a bit more loyal/patient w/Acura.
Now Acura is just another company in my experience list. It doesn't get a pass for "Japanese reliability" in my book for current models.
This is such a misnomer and based on what? Oh, Hi VW...My MIL has had 3 now and they've been rock solid. BMW...as long as you're not getting performance variants then they'll be fine. The X3s are considered highly reliable. Ours was great when we had it. Mercedes...no personal experience as they aren't my cup of tea but probably similar to BMW regarding performance variants. Porsche is supposed to be very reliable these days. And I have several friends with Audis who have no issues.
I was really only speaking of the luxury brands, and so I never added VW into the mix. But whatever.
I base my opinions on what I see and hear from people that I know (family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, dudes at the gym, whatever) I also do consider the opinions of online people like you guys. But I trust my local automotive technicians, past and present, plus all the people I know, more than any BS stat that I read online.
The fact is that there is a patter that I fuckin' hear over and over and over again. Concerning reliability, fun to drive factor, COST OF REPAIRS, and everything else under the sun.
Basically, what I am saying is that I can only state what I have known and seeing to be true. Sometimes there is bias, and sometimes I fail to update my opinions as time goes on. I've made that crystal clear in this thread. I still had a very opinion of Kia. And it's going to take more seeing to completely convince me. But for the most part, I base my opinions on what I can see and touch and hear and maybe some other senses too, who knows. Some people say I've got the gift of the second sight.
But I will say this. Everything depends upon the upkeep of services. Number 1 is: You have to change the god damn fuckin' oil. I don't car if it's the most reliable car in the galaxy, if you don't change the oil regularly, it will fail. Some people have the belief that since they have a reliable model, they can slack on maintenance. On the other hand, you might drive a shitbox. Bought it from day one, so you know exactly how well it was maintained. You maintain it like a boss. I actually get OCD and, if anything, go overboard. That shitbox will last a relatively long time. Some even go 300k or more miles before it's ready to put out to pasture. So, so much depends on the owner, too.
And If I offend anyone because I speak ill of their auto manufacturer, or because I often curse, that is not my intention. I also come off as very opinionated, but that could not be further from the truth. I NEVER presume to be right about ANYTHING. There are always 10 million variables, that I could never come close to considering, which would make it highly likely that I am wrong or partially wrong about an AWFUL lot of shit.
That's fine. I can only comment on what I can see.
I've also owned a number of Toyotas and Nissans that I couldn't list due to the 5 line limit in the signature. Point is, I'm only lacking in American and Korean car ownership.
I've never owned anything from the parent Honda company but I've gotten close. Chances are that if I had prior Honda experience, I may have been a bit more loyal/patient w/Acura.
Now Acura is just another company in my experience list. It doesn't get a pass for "Japanese reliability" in my book for current models.
The late 80s Excel was indisputably awful. As I recall, the alternator was pretty much a wear item to be replaced more often than the tires.
I had an 89 excel and i replaced clutch cables every few weeks. BUT, i could change a clutch in 2 hours on that thing. Big POS. That really set my tone for hyundai but i know things have changed.
Funny enough, in the family we have a 2005 Pontiac Vibe (Toyota made) with 240K on the clock, just doing plugs and oil changes. Could probably use a new suspension. A 2008 CR-V with 220K plus on it, and also oil changes and plugs. Did a recent inner/outer tie rod ends and a starter (F U Honda for the location of the starter). And my Volvo XC90 has been rock sold, but only 135K on her clock, and the only major item to fail was an A/C compressor.
I guess it comes down to taking care of your cars regardless of brand. Or you got a lemon. And that happens.
^^^
List looks about right. I'm surprised the Camry's not further up on the list as it was rock solid back in the day.
Just like the stock market, as long as we agree past results are not indicative of future performance, we should be ok.
The Camry has been one of the greatest family cars available in the US. I would have placed it very high on the list too. Although he had quite a few trucks that the Camry wouldn't compete with because they are for work, and he included the Avalon which is like the more luxurious version of the Camry. So, he basically had the Camry twice on a very short list where half the vehicles were work trucks. So, not bad.
The Camry has been one of the greatest family cars available in the US. I would have placed it very high on the list too. Although he had quite a few trucks that the Camry wouldn't compete with because they are for work, and he included the Avalon which is like the more luxurious version of the Camry. So, he basically had the Camry twice on a very short list where half the vehicles were work trucks. So, not bad.
Only 3 of the 23 are sedans (the third being the Accord). The death of the sedan in America continues!
Only 3 of the 23 are sedans (the third being the Accord). The death of the sedan in America continues!
And I don't understand that trend. It makes no sense to me. Not with gas prices being what it is. I just filed up with 91 octane. You can't find 93. Because liberals. Anyway, I went to Shell. You know how much it cost? $5.59. That's California for you.
Many of the trucks in Legend's post are meant for heavy work. They tow/carry heavy weight. But if you're not in the agricultural business or just in need of carrying heavy, heavy shit around, there's no need for that kind of truck. You're getting 13, 14, 15 miles per gallon. I mean, to each his own. Honestly. Enjoy it, I guess.
just filed up with 91 octane. You can't find 93. Because liberals. Anyway, I went to Shell. You know how much it cost? $5.59. That's California for you.
My personal experience and from others parallels this list
As fate would have it, my wife's rear windshield got smashed so I have the privilege of driving the #10 car on this list, the 4Runner!
Looks like it was designed when I first started driving but reviews of the loaner '21 4Runner claim it was last redesigned in 2010. Worst of all, everything's manual including physical key ignition and manual liftgate.
Last time I had a Toyota this basic was a 2002 4 cylinder Camry! Had that Camry for 10 years until I traded it in for my first Mercedes. That Camry held value like a champ!
And I don't understand that trend. It makes no sense to me. Not with gas prices being what it is. I just filed up with 91 octane. You can't find 93. Because liberals. Anyway, I went to Shell. You know how much it cost? $5.59. That's California for you.
Many of the trucks in Legend's post are meant for heavy work. They tow/carry heavy weight. But if you're not in the agricultural business or just in need of carrying heavy, heavy shit around, there's no need for that kind of truck. You're getting 13, 14, 15 miles per gallon. I mean, to each his own. Honestly. Enjoy it, I guess.
MODERATOR NOTE: We have a separate section over in Ramblings for political rants; don't bring this here.
FWIW, there's alot of kaizen and TPS references out there
Honda has their own quality management system but achieve similar results to Toyota.
Having read a few books about the automotive and motorcycle industry, I tend to strongly agree on the design philosophy of certain manufacturers. Sure, I remember reading "we're not in the business of making cars, we're in the business of making money", and all are, the difference is some peoduce a better product in the process.
I also saw the design philosophy when I installed a factory A/C system in a Toyota I bought new following their service instructions. All I can say was "I was blown away at how 100% of everything I had to do was like clockwork; absolutely perfect".
I love my Acuras of the past. I had small issues but the dealer always dealt with me square. I left Acura for a while so I have experience with many other brands but none as reliable as Acura, except Toyota/Lexus, and they are even. I’m ack with Acura and expect the same great reliability!
05-03-2023, 01:41 PM
Oh well. Maybe one of these days I'll join the mass exodus and head on over to... I don't know, anyware.
