oo7spy

1) Your response was in reference to an S2000 comment. What you said is just retarded.

2) If the 2013 Si did all of those things, would you buy one?

The thing that bothers me the most about the people who bash Honda in Car Talk for "losing their way" is that they wouldn't buy a Honda if they did everything they were asking. In addition, if Honda did what they were asking, they would lose money. Their business is selling cars, not making car enthusiasts get hard-ons.

If someone wants a new Si with all of those things (except high revs), they will buy one and get coilovers, racing seats, an exhaust, a stereo/A/C delete and whatever else 99% of people don't want in a car.

HBaJ

Speed is subjective as well. And probably compared to MS3 it likely does feel slow, but 0-60 in 6.1 seconds is nothing to sneeze at, especially if it only needs 200hp to do so.

Ken1997TL

Before '06 the Si had 160 hp out of a 2.0 that was detuned and soft.

As of '06 You ended up with RSX Type S performance for less money and with the sedan introduced in '07, some practicality.

The Si has always been a daily driver, not sure where you're getting the idea its been some sort of track monster.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I know.

But yeah, it felt slow. OP asked the feeling, not the numbers.

Didn't give me the Honda feeling much for some reason when I drove it multiple times.

oonowindoo

1) i have had 2 S2000 i know exactly what they feel like and i loved everything about it. As someone already mentioned the comment was comparison between this gen SI and previous Gens.

2) I never bought an Si because it does not have enough power and it is FWD. If 2013 Si has all those things i said, + 40more HP + RWD. I will go trade in my 335 Tomorrow.

I do not bash Honda/Acura because it is Honda/Acura. Some of their products are just waiting to be bashed, which are direct result of their Stubbornness.

I have said many good things about the current gen Accord and i personally have 2 Honda at home.

As an enthusiast, Honda/Acura is just plain boring. As a family buyer, rest of the competition is catching up and Honda/Acura can only rely their past reputation for so long if they keep coming out with overpriced cars like RLX and ILX.


When a car is good, then it is good. When the car is not good, then it is not good. I am not a fanboy to any brand.

oonowindoo

0-60 is for magazine racers as nobody drops their clutch at 6k at every traffic light.

30/40-100mph is more accurate.

HBaJ

Haha, I was just referencing that it isn't the lethargic POS some are touting it up to be. I never said it was the best car in the segment, but it certainly is competitive.

neuronbob

And we are arguing about the new Si because?



You guys are asking for the Si to be a Type-R, which Honda will never bring to the US given previous behavior. If you are wanting a FWD sporty car and the Civic doesn't do it for you, there are a bunch of choices. My choice would be a 2011 Si, but that's just me.

esco115

LoL @ ppl wanting a civic to have near 300hp, run 13's, have paper weight yet still be priced $20k... lmao

oonowindoo

I prefer EK.

oo7spy

Tell me, how much does a 3 series run these days?

dom

Please quote that post.

I love people who use extremes to try and support their viewpoint.

One reason I'm ok with the Civic Si being what it is, is that is costs much less than the competition. Which granted outperform the Si, but for more money. At least up here in Canada.

But is Honda not capable of offering more than 200 HP/No torque on their Sporty cars? They've been there for years. The needle from the GS-R to Prelude to the last few Si's hasn't moved much. But maybe what we should be asking for is a Type-R and not for the Si to compete directly with GTI's, ST and MazdaSpeeds.

esco115

I wasn't referring to a specific post, it was the thread in general.

I also am ok with the Si as it is, it has came along way with the exception of the EP3 Si which was just a disaster from the beginning...

A Type R of anything would be to expensive and way out the price range from the competition as a base price; i.e the 00-01 ITR's even though those were marked up from dealers still as a base they were a pretty penny.

I think your focused on the cross-over of vtec and sound of the B series. I also do like the sound but I'd prefer to be quiet and go then loud and slow? lol

K series technology will always win over the B series its that simple.

neuronbob

A fair point. I liked the EK-series Si as well.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

How much would a Type R Civic be, if it was to released here in the States?

MS3/GTI/ST are priced from $24k-30k.

I wouldn't mind a "real" nice Civic that's priced within that range.

No, not one of those POS Mugen Civic Si that Honda released. Geez.

Ken1997TL

$28,000 if they built it in Ohio and didn't mess around.

oonowindoo

Considering Si cost $24k. I would say $28k-$30k would be good price for it. Assuming it is a REAL Type R.

oonowindoo

It is expensive and overpriced but then that is what a BMW, Benz and Audi is. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. There are plenty of other people lining up for it.

BMW will not be a BMW if it is cheap, then again If BMW can sell 50k 3 series like hot cakes then apparently they are not expensive.

One day if Honda/Acura have the same customer base, then they can charge $80k for their RLX and people will still buy it regardless how boring looking it is.

Aman

Expensive != Overpriced.

Overpriced just means it's not worth the money.

esco115

No a CTR would not cost 28k... Lets think about this the Mugen Si when it came out had a base MSRP of 30k and no dealer was giving discounts because they already knew it was a limited production car... And guess what? ppl still bought a 30-38k civic LoL

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

It took me less than 2 seconds to find out the MSRP of Mugen Si. It was $30k, not $34k.

If you are going to say something about the topic, at least make it credible a little.

esco115

^yeah I know not sure why I hit 4 instead of 0... but regardless it took me 1 sec to correct it while you were out

brian6speed

iTrader: (5)

The people who say fwd cant be sporty or fwd cant handle over 200hp have never driven a properly setup fwd car.

The new civics will never be anything like the ITR. They cut too many corners now. They used to make cars with double wishbone setups on all 4 corners(like any proper sport/race car has). Now they typically use a macpherson front setup with a torsion beam or multilink rear setup to save space for passengers and because it is cheaper. They are all about compromise now. Atleast they switched from the torsion beam to the multilink in the rear tho and it does have the nice helical lsd.

Enthusiasts were begging honda/acura to bring the itr to the us. When they finally did bring it here barely anyone ended up buying them and it was a huge flop. They got more popular after they stopped selling them as used models. These type of things make them reluctant to do it again.

I almost bought a used 01 yellow itr and still regret it kind of.

F23A4

I just wish Honda would have produced the Civic RR and brought it stateside instead of that Mugen Si they used to hoodwink the ricer crowd. That said, the 8G Si sedan is the only Si model that I actually entertained procuring.

dom

Exactly, no one is asking for 300HP at 20K. Don't make it seem like they are.

The issue I have isn't the K per se, its the 2.4 in the Si.

oonowindoo

Both "expensive" and "Overpriced" are very subjective.

Just because you think it is not worth the money does not mean everyone thinks it is not worth the $.

I think a $2000 LV purse is overpriced and not worth the $. Apparently my GF thinks otherwise.

oonowindoo

Mugen Si is expensive is because..... it is Mugen. all of their parts are expensive.


The price of Mugen Si really has nothing to do with CTR.

How much is the CTR in Japan compare to Mugen Si and regular civic In Japan? Anyone knows?

oonowindoo

i think i said somewhere in the post that i was willing to pay more than $30k for 240 Hp, if they make it.


The issue i have is not with the 2.4 engine itself, but they basically move the TSX engine over and called it a Si. That is just not very "Si" to me.

They should have at least messed around with it a bit and make it rev to 8k.

oo7spy

As long as we both realize this truth, then I think we can agree to disagree.

pimpin-tl

This model wasn't out last year.

oonowindoo

Sure

Except

When European cars are overpriced, it does not hurt them.

When Acura cars are overpriced, It does not sell. See RLX.

sale #s are not subjective.

dom

The Integra Type R was a flop?

Really?

Ken1997TL

Yep, just like the S2000 and NSX. Absolute sales flops!!

Ken1997TL

If HONDA not MUGEN made a Type R, I don't see them having any issue of selling it for $28,000.

I also said if they built it in Ohio (or anywhere in the US) it could be done. Mugen is expensive, rare and frankly a 'premium' brand that is all about exclusivity and mark-up.

oo7spy

There is already a thread for this discussion, so I will just make two statements about the RLX here. The RLX was not designed to be a mass-seller, and it does not have to sell at all for Acura to do well.

Costco

I can respect the position that Honda took. It's an in-between for people who don't want a sport compact with no balls at all and yet don't want something turbocharged.

It's just not for me. And anyone wishes for another Type-R in North America is chasing a pipe dream. It will never happen unless Honda has a drastic change in leadership.

dom

It sells and has been there while many others have come and gone. The issue IMO is there should be something above the Si, Type R? Prelude? whatever or they want to call it.

It also needs an AT option. Or at least a dual clutch. Its not so much a sports car that an AT will ruin the experience.

Aman

I agree with you, but that wasn't what I was trying to say.

esco115

I think you failed to understand the thread as a WHOLE! Please reread it before you make yourself look bad...

Oh and please tell what issue is it that your having with the K24? lol omg I can't believe I am even entertaining this...

Mugen don't make cars so I highly doubt they will ever build one. They do add ons, just like NISMO is to nissan or Saleen is to Ford or Hennessy is to Dodge.

Regardless any add on from factory is going to cost a pretty penny on any car whether it has 90hp or 1000hp that was my point.

I really doubt they will be building anything Type R here in the states that's just honda honestly. Making a car lighter faster and all around efficient to a car enthusiast is just going to cost more that's the reality of the matter.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

I think the issue here is not the Si per se, but Honda's overall lack of ability or desire to come to the table with a power train that is meaningful in this day and age. The magic of the Si's, 'Lude's, Tegs, Legends etc we all founded around a power train that was at the leading edge of the given segment at the time. Looking back at the cars that brought us all here honda offered 2 things, a competent chassis packaged with an inspiring power train which today one part of that formula is missing. Looking to what the Germans and Ford have brought to the table in their 4 cylinders, DI turbos cranking out more hp/tq per litre then anyone would have imagined, the fact is these technologies are the vtech back in '93 and honda missed the boat when they made the decisions to focus on their hybrid power trains that aren't selling. Honda made a decision on ideals a number of years ago and stopped developing new tech for internal combustions engines, and this Si is the result of those compromises. I have no doubt that if you dropped the engine from the a4 or 328i into the Si it would tear up the streets. I think with Honda's recent announcement of it's return to formula 1 with Mclaren we will start to see the same passion into the next development cycle.

/rant