kfc469

I am arguing with a user of another forum that I am a member of and I need some help from some people that know cars.

I am trying to prove to him that if you get a BMW, you are going to pay a lot extra for just the name. He has a 2005 BMW 745Li costs over $70k. I compared it with a TSX saying that the 07's have almost just as many features as his BMW but with a price tag that was more than $40k lower. He countered back saying: just because they are heated/ air conditioned and the massage.

so can anyone help defend me? maybe the total price that all of the items that are in the BMW. I just mainly want to prove to him that he is paying a lot extra for the BMW name and logo.

here is where our argument starts: http://www.tech-forums.net/showthrea...&pagenumber=12

Thanks guys

Oh, I'm kfc469 over there to.

phile

Well he is paying extra for the name, but not 40K extra. The BMW really does cost more than the TSX in materials. A few things I can think of right off the top of my head: fake wood in the TSX, real in the BMW. LED rear lights in the BMW, standard bulbs in the TSX.

mclarenf3387

This is the dumbest comparison ever. You would stand a chance comparing a TSX with a 3 series, but there are a lot of differences between a TSX and a 745.

iTimmy

A few of my friends have 7 series and I used to own a TSX, there is no comparison between the quality of materials through out and fit and finish its not even fair for the TSX. The overall feel of a the 7 series is luxurious yet it feels suprisingly nimble. Your arguement is poor(I didn't click your link), the fact will remain that some people have the means to purchase luxury cars and are willing to pay a premium for that other's like to think they are getting value. There comes a point in a person's life when they want to treat themselves to something special, they can afford it and realize value and luxury cannot be used in the same sentence... what more justification do you need? If value drove all of us to purchase cars we would be driving kia's.


I am by no means a BMW fan, but when you purchase a BMW you are getting a lot more then just a name, your getting superior engineering that has stood the test of time, your buying inovative technology, high quality materials through out; simply put luxury.

cob3683

You really can't compare the two cars at all. That's like trying to compare a Pontiac G6 convertible to an SL550.

S14 n Tsx

How could you compare 745Li vs tsx.. hahaha!!

S14 n Tsx

how about a GEO metro to a f430? anyways, I hope you understand where we are coming from. Tsx is a nice car but cant compare to 745...thats just way over the head.

agranado

Compare an RL to a 745 and then you'd be a bit closer and fair. But even then, the 7 is in it's own class of car. (even with a bit of overpricing )

Ishakir

weetadid

Epsilon07

It's his money, let him spend it however he wants.

Crazy Bimmer

Im not even going to say anything.

leedogg

what you want to argue is that the tsx is the best value at its class/pricepoint. At the 745's class/pricepoint there might be better values out there like the infinity's

EuRTSX

rofl, your rep just castrated itself.

Sclass88

Apples to Oranges dude. Who cares what he thinks, people are entitled to their own opinions...

kfc469

what I was really trying to prove was just that you pay a lot of extra money just for the BMW name. If you were to buy a car with the exact same everything as that car but from say VW, you would not pay as much just because of the name.

EuRTSX

Yeah except, VW has nothing to compare with the 7 series.


And the TSX doesn't either.

Of course the BMW name is a tad bit expensive, same goes with Lexus and Toyota. Why pay thousands and thousands more for a Lexus, when Toyota is the same company. I think you should've gone with this approach. But simply comparing the TSX to a 7 Series. Bad approach.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Ah dont worry dude its a BMW which means broke my wallet. The 7s are known for there problems and sooner or later it will hit your friend. The TSX is has no known problems so I think you should be good to go 100K down the road so in those terms you will win.

iTimmy

The fact remains that no other car company makes cars with the balance of performance and luxury like BMW does and has been doing for decades. VW does make a car comparable to the 7 series and its over priced, unreliable and has horrible residual value.

You really should spend some time in a 7 series before you go throwing stones... If I were to have one single car in its price range as a daily driver, no doubt in my mind that I would pick the 750i. Why not compare it to the new S550, the 7 series is 15-20k less, so does that make the S-class a sham too?

Did you ever stop to think that people who can afford these cars as a whole must be fairly smart people to have made enough to afford a $80k+ car, and as fairly smart people made the best decision they could picking it based on what they wanted and not what is the best value.

Sure there is some cache to the BMW name, but the same can be said about Acura, in fact why didn't you get a Honda Accord V6... its clearly offer's more at a lower price...

BstonBruin

A Phaeton is comparable to the 7 series

SiGGy

Dude, if you think people who buy BMW's are paying for the name you knowing absolutely nothing about cars.

And comparing a TSX to a 7 series... you're proving yourself to be an idiot.

cp3117

X2...Wow this is really out to lunch....next it will be TSX vs Maybach

SiGGy

yes, a very good comparison actually. And the phaeton is a good deal when you compare them

Crazy Bimmer

I think he posted here thinking he would get some Acura support.

Bottom line is that theres a lot more to a car than just heated seats,automatic headlights, xenon...etc.. Even $20k cars have that these days, so does that mean you bought the TSX for the name?

SiGGy

I agree with almost everything you said, but the W12 phaeton is anything but overpriced. It has more features and is some $30k less than the 760. It was however brought to market incorrectly. The phaeton is a steal for the $$. And no it is not plagued with problems. I researched them for months when I was considering buying one.

Only basing your opinion of reliability by reading online forums is stupid. 95% of the people who joined the forum joined it because they have issues. Most people do not jump online to praise things It just doesn't happen...

BstonBruin

One of the arguments that could be made is do people considering the 7 series but not the Phaeton do so because of the BMW name or no.

Crazy Bimmer

Well that can be true since the Phaeton was a great car but people didnt want to pay that much for the VW badge.

BstonBruin

^^
I'm sure it also has something to do with BMW, Mercedes Audi and the likes have established themselves in the luxury car market over the last 20 years or so, while VW is relatively new in this field.

Crazy Bimmer

If you are talking about the general publics perspective then yes.

Otherwise VW is far from new to this as they build Audi, Lambo, Bentley, etc...

cp3117

I think more so because of the VW name. People buying a 7 series will compare to an audi A8 which is VW but is considered a luxury brand, but wont consider VW because its a parent company much like Honda-Acura. The Phaeton is an incredible car ahead of its time but had horrible marketing in NA which is typical of VW and was therfore discontinued in NA but still sells well in europe and the rest of the world.

So i guess in this comparison for the north american market that image and name would be a factor being both cars have lots of simularities.

BstonBruin

Saintor

The Phaeton failed in NA because;

1. It was boring.
2. It was priced too high. It should have been priced a E-Class/5-Series level max.

kyotousa

you really think TSX is in same class as BMW 745i?
what's RL for?

cp3117

1. Depends what is percieved as boring as its rather subjective.....with the W12 it was anything but boring.

2.For what the car was aimed at and compared to it was actually a great bargain. I do agree though that if they wanted to play in this market and cut their own throats (ie Audi) then they should have started with a 5 series competitor.

Marketing i feel was still the main downfall for the car. It was a car that had it all and even cars such as the lexus ls460 are only starting to compare to it and the phaeton is an old design.
There was never any advertising (TV, radio or newspaper....very little if any). If you walked into a dealership there was never any mention of one and i have seen there displays and material packages which where usually hidden in a back corner. They where as impressive as anything MB, BMW etc had....Most VW salesmen and managers stated that the main downfall was that VW gave them nothing to promote this vehicle with.

Bottom line was if your looking at a $100,000 car most people didnt want to buy one unseen sitting beside a VW beetle in a small showroom. (if the people in this market even knew it exsisted)

cp3117

The RL is more of a 5 series, A6 category car. Acura doesnt really have anything to compete in this market yet.....but hopefully soon.

Titand19

Agree

SiGGy

1. that's you're opinion

2. Priced too high? You really don't know what your subjects are I see. It's the best value for a vehicle in it's class. 5 series? lol, this statement alone shows you really don't know anything about what you're comparing. The Phaeton directly competes with a the 7 series... Both are high-end luxury sedans. 5 series is BMWs flagship sport series sedans, not high end luxury.

You might want to learn a bit more about the Phaeton before you go comparing it to the 5 series again. LOL, I'd love to see a 5 series with all 4 seats being air conditioned, heated and massaging. And then not to mention a refrigerator and fully electric reclining seats in the rear. Then to add one button that hides all of the air vents with wood panels... 4 zone climate control... 12cyl engine with 4wd... I'm barely hitting on the features in the Phaeton.

The phaeton is an engineering marvel. To compare it to a 5 series says you really don't know the 1st thing about it.

Saintor

Don't let your obvious ignorance fool you.

Lexus entered in the game in 1989 exactly like the way I suggested. Sellling full-size luxury car at the price of a medium one. i.e. selling the LS400 (S-Class size) at a E-Class price.

The Phaeton looks like an anonymous bloated Passat. Nothing that compensate for the lack of prestige. They had the same problem with the Passat W8. I drove a few ones, but couldn't believe they wanted 57000$CAD for it - more than the price of a 330Xi of then.

Only a Honda fanboy would compare a TSX to a 745...!

SiGGy

Do you have ADD? WTF does Lexus have to do with you not knowing the subjects we are discussing.

The Phaeton is like $30k cheaper than the 7 series equally equipped (or close). So it is a deal in it's market segment. Again comprehension owns you.

The real issue here is your lack of knowledge of the Phaeton.

Ignorance? LOL, you compared a 5 series to a Phaeton. That statement ALONE says you don't know what your talking about. You probably haven't a clue of what engineering actually went into the phaeton or what's available on it. 5 series doesn't hold anything to the Phaeton. The 7 series is the only car BMW makes that can be compared to the Phaeton. And it's more expensive than the phaeton. The Phaeton is a great deal when *actually* compared.



HAHA, I didn't compare a TSX to a 7 series. Reading comprehension owns you.

My ignorance, please elaborate. What have I been ignorant about?

On the other hand, you have shown your ignorance. You compared a 5 series to the Phaeton.

Guy, take a hour or two and actually educate yourself on the Phaeton before you make yourself look like a further fool. You finding the car boring doesn't mean it isn't something special.

Saintor

Come ON learn to READ!

I never compared the Phaeton to a 5-series, you silly!

I saidf that the Phaeton should have sold at E-Class/5-series prices.

Please-read-more-slow-ly-next-time.

SiGGy

Why should it be sold at 5 series prices?

1. it competes with the 7 series not the 5, so it has no reason to be in the 5 series price rage. Both the 7 series and Phaeton are high-end luxury cars. Both offer similar luxury amenities. Why should a high end luxury car be in a high-end sport sedan price range?
.
2. both fully loaded; 7 series & phaeton the phaeton is $30k cheaper (and basically have same options)

WTF are you missing here. It is the best value in it's class. It is FAR cheaper than it's competition.