2003 Infiniti G35 Dyno graph
#42
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zeroday
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quote:
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Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
hey TypeR ever hear of gear ratios?
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um..ever hear of displacement?
What about it??? He was saying that because the CL has 1000 more rpm it is better and faster.
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quote:
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Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
hey TypeR ever hear of gear ratios?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
um..ever hear of displacement?
What about it??? He was saying that because the CL has 1000 more rpm it is better and faster.
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Originally posted by gavriil
Where is the power made in the rev band is irelevant in an acceleration competition. As long as you are able to put the power on the ground, the revs dont matter.
Where is the power made in the rev band is irelevant in an acceleration competition. As long as you are able to put the power on the ground, the revs dont matter.
Take two cars which make nearly the same torque. Car A makes more peak torque at a lower rev and car B makes 5% lesser torque but makes its torque for 1k revs longer. Now assume equal gearing. Car B will be falling behind until the first shift. At which point the ability to hold the lower gear in Car B allows it to pull closer and then shift. Now the cars are in the same gear and car A is pulling ahead but has to quickly grab the next gear. Once this shift occurs car B has the advantage and pulls even, etc.
During the shifts a drop of 25% or more may occur. So if a car can hold a gear longer while producing less overall torque it might be able to win.
Now alter the gearing to favor the extra revs and the table may turn. Traction limitations excluded.
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not to discredit your statement.....but, when are cars going to have equal gear ratios, 99% of cars brought here to the US or made for the US market have shift points that accomodate 2nd gear up to 60 for the 0-60 test w/o a 2-3 shift(so as to not lose that extra little bit) and for the 1/4 mile to be done in either 3 or 4 gears. Therefore making your statement about one falling behind the other one invalid. ( Unless they would make the gear ratios equal, not likely)
#46
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A large Total area under the curve is really what makes a good motor. The larger the area under the curve means more usable HP/Torque. That's why you can have two cars with equal peak HP numbers and one will leave the other in the dust.
TypeR and the SC guys are a testimony to this. Their curves broadened in addition to higher peaks.
TypeR and the SC guys are a testimony to this. Their curves broadened in addition to higher peaks.
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Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
not to discredit your statement.....but, when are cars going to have equal gear ratios, 99% of cars brought here to the US or made for the US market have shift points that accomodate 2nd gear up to 60 for the 0-60 test w/o a 2-3 shift(so as to not lose that extra little bit) and for the 1/4 mile to be done in either 3 or 4 gears. Therefore making your statement about one falling behind the other one invalid. ( Unless they would make the gear ratios equal, not likely)
not to discredit your statement.....but, when are cars going to have equal gear ratios, 99% of cars brought here to the US or made for the US market have shift points that accomodate 2nd gear up to 60 for the 0-60 test w/o a 2-3 shift(so as to not lose that extra little bit) and for the 1/4 mile to be done in either 3 or 4 gears. Therefore making your statement about one falling behind the other one invalid. ( Unless they would make the gear ratios equal, not likely)
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Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
not to discredit your statement.....but, when are cars going to have equal gear ratios, ... Therefore making your statement about one falling behind the other one invalid. ( Unless they would make the gear ratios equal, not likely)
not to discredit your statement.....but, when are cars going to have equal gear ratios, ... Therefore making your statement about one falling behind the other one invalid. ( Unless they would make the gear ratios equal, not likely)
But to apply it here and based on what you presented; the cars gearing would be set to give nearly the same road speeds. This would allude that the CL-S6 should have shorter gearing (when the wheel/tire combo is accounted for). This shorter over all gearing does help to make up some of the torque deficit.
I do have one instance for same gearing but different motor. In the C4 when they went from the L98 motor to the LT1. The transmissions were untouched for the automatics; the L98 motor actually made a little more torque at a lower revs. But the LT1 motor made its torque about 1k revs longer. This did allow it to stay in a lower gear longer and out accelerate the L98.
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Originally posted by typeR
they make all the difference...the G makes more HP and torque with a similar curve but doest it fo 1000 less rpms and weighs about the same and ends up being just a tick faster in the 1/4 6mt to 6mt
they make all the difference...the G makes more HP and torque with a similar curve but doest it fo 1000 less rpms and weighs about the same and ends up being just a tick faster in the 1/4 6mt to 6mt
As long as a vehicle is able to put the power on the ground, total HP is what matters in ultimate acceleration. Not where on the rev band that power it made.
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Originally posted by scalbert
No...
Take two cars which make nearly the same torque. Car A makes more peak torque at a lower rev and car B makes 5% lesser torque but makes its torque for 1k revs longer. Now assume equal gearing. Car B will be falling behind until the first shift. At which point the ability to hold the lower gear in Car B allows it to pull closer and then shift. Now the cars are in the same gear and car A is pulling ahead but has to quickly grab the next gear. Once this shift occurs car B has the advantage and pulls even, etc.
During the shifts a drop of 25% or more may occur. So if a car can hold a gear longer while producing less overall torque it might be able to win.
Now alter the gearing to favor the extra revs and the table may turn. Traction limitations excluded.
No...
Take two cars which make nearly the same torque. Car A makes more peak torque at a lower rev and car B makes 5% lesser torque but makes its torque for 1k revs longer. Now assume equal gearing. Car B will be falling behind until the first shift. At which point the ability to hold the lower gear in Car B allows it to pull closer and then shift. Now the cars are in the same gear and car A is pulling ahead but has to quickly grab the next gear. Once this shift occurs car B has the advantage and pulls even, etc.
During the shifts a drop of 25% or more may occur. So if a car can hold a gear longer while producing less overall torque it might be able to win.
Now alter the gearing to favor the extra revs and the table may turn. Traction limitations excluded.
Scalbert, I dont think the above is true. If both cars ahve equal gearing, of the same weight and can equally put the power on the ground, torque and where it's made, is irrelevant.
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Originally posted by J98CL
I have heard that the G35 is some what the american Skyline version. My buddy found a site saying that they are the same ride. Has anyone elese heard this?
I have heard that the G35 is some what the american Skyline version. My buddy found a site saying that they are the same ride. Has anyone elese heard this?
It's called the Skyline in Japan and Europe.
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Originally posted by Allout
A large Total area under the curve is really what makes a good motor. The larger the area under the curve means more usable HP/Torque.
A large Total area under the curve is really what makes a good motor. The larger the area under the curve means more usable HP/Torque.
Torque and where it's made on the rev band is irrelevant. Assuming gearing, weight are identical and the way the vehicles put all the power to the ground, what matters for ultimate acceleration, is the total area under the HP curve.
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Originally posted by gavriil
Scalbert, I dont think the above is true. If both cars ahve equal gearing, of the same weight and can equally put the power on the ground, torque and where it's made, is irrelevant.
Scalbert, I dont think the above is true. If both cars ahve equal gearing, of the same weight and can equally put the power on the ground, torque and where it's made, is irrelevant.
I beleive this is one of the better write-ups on the subject, specifically mid way down when discussing the L98 and LT1 C4 Corvettes.
HP, Torque and Gearing
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Guys, in this case we assume that gear ratios and final drive are identical. As well as weight, aerodrag, other drag, etc.
What matters is the TOTAL area under the HP curve. If that total area is larger in quantity than another car's, then the first car wins. Peak torque and where it appears does not matter.
What matters is the TOTAL area under the HP curve. If that total area is larger in quantity than another car's, then the first car wins. Peak torque and where it appears does not matter.
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Originally posted by gavriil
Guys, in this case we assume that gear ratios and final drive are identical. As well as weight, aerodrag, other drag, etc.
What matters is the TOTAL area under the HP curve. If that total area is larger in quantity than another car's, then the first car wins. Peak torque and where it appears does not matter.
Guys, in this case we assume that gear ratios and final drive are identical. As well as weight, aerodrag, other drag, etc.
What matters is the TOTAL area under the HP curve. If that total area is larger in quantity than another car's, then the first car wins. Peak torque and where it appears does not matter.
Where is the power made in the rev band is irelevant in an acceleration competition. As long as you are able to put the power on the ground, the revs dont matter.
Take for instance the example (Hypothetical) torque plots below. Both cars have the same area under the curve. However, Car B would win in a drag race (with everything else equal) even though it has a lower peak torque output. It would win because it would be spending more time at a greater torque value; in the upper revs.
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BTW, just for fun I did a quick chart for comparison albeit sided towards the CL-S6 since, in this example, it has headers and intake.
The G35 has an obvious advantage below 5k revs assuming similar gearing (which they are close). But above 5500 revs the CL-S is the winner. When racing, most of the time would be spent above 5000 RPM. However, in a drag race the G35 should win if driven well as it is RWD and has better low end grunt. It should be able to have short times 0.2 - 0.3 seconds quicker. This means the CL-S6 has a lot of catching up to do.
Back to area under the curve and extending the torque curve. Guess which vehicle has the greater area here?? The CL-S by about 7.5% with a 20% advantage from 4500 RPM and up.
The G35 has an obvious advantage below 5k revs assuming similar gearing (which they are close). But above 5500 revs the CL-S is the winner. When racing, most of the time would be spent above 5000 RPM. However, in a drag race the G35 should win if driven well as it is RWD and has better low end grunt. It should be able to have short times 0.2 - 0.3 seconds quicker. This means the CL-S6 has a lot of catching up to do.
Back to area under the curve and extending the torque curve. Guess which vehicle has the greater area here?? The CL-S by about 7.5% with a 20% advantage from 4500 RPM and up.
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Originally posted by scalbert
Precisely, the area matters and by making torque at higher revs you significantly increase this area. But that isn't what was originally stated. Also, where the power occurs does matter.
I understand where you may have been going but it isn't what I gleaned from your statement. In addition, total area does not represent absolute results.
Precisely, the area matters and by making torque at higher revs you significantly increase this area. But that isn't what was originally stated. Also, where the power occurs does matter.
I understand where you may have been going but it isn't what I gleaned from your statement. In addition, total area does not represent absolute results.
"Actually you give me a reason to restate. In a more acurate way.
Torque and where it's made on the rev band is irrelevant. Assuming gearing, weight are identical and the way the vehicles put all the power to the ground, what matters for ultimate acceleration, is the total area under the HP curve."
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Originally posted by scalbert
Take for instance the example (Hypothetical) torque plots below. Both cars have the same area under the curve. However, Car B would win in a drag race (with everything else equal) even though it has a lower peak torque output. It would win because it would be spending more time at a greater torque value; in the upper revs.
Take for instance the example (Hypothetical) torque plots below. Both cars have the same area under the curve. However, Car B would win in a drag race (with everything else equal) even though it has a lower peak torque output. It would win because it would be spending more time at a greater torque value; in the upper revs.
In reality the above example may actually be correct, because eratic/sudden changes in torque cause cars to be slightly slower due to the fact that they dont put all that power on the ground as well as "flat torque" cars.
In theory though (and that is why I was so emphatic on the "able to put the power on the ground" issue), if the total area under the torque or HP curve (same thing) is equal, then the cars will accelerate equally, keeping everything else equal.
A good example of the above is evident in this thread of mine, with the SPI car. Look at the rediculous torque curve. Then look at the acceleration times as compared with the others.
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Originally posted by scalbert
BTW, just for fun I did a quick chart for comparison albeit sided towards the CL-S6 since, in this example, it has headers and intake.
The G35 has an obvious advantage below 5k revs assuming similar gearing (which they are close). But above 5500 revs the CL-S is the winner. When racing, most of the time would be spent above 5000 RPM. However, in a drag race the G35 should win if driven well as it is RWD and has better low end grunt. It should be able to have short times 0.2 - 0.3 seconds quicker. This means the CL-S6 has a lot of catching up to do.
BTW, just for fun I did a quick chart for comparison albeit sided towards the CL-S6 since, in this example, it has headers and intake.
The G35 has an obvious advantage below 5k revs assuming similar gearing (which they are close). But above 5500 revs the CL-S is the winner. When racing, most of the time would be spent above 5000 RPM. However, in a drag race the G35 should win if driven well as it is RWD and has better low end grunt. It should be able to have short times 0.2 - 0.3 seconds quicker. This means the CL-S6 has a lot of catching up to do.
Originally posted by scalbert
Back to area under the curve and extending the torque curve. Guess which vehicle has the greater area here?? The CL-S by about 7.5% with a 20% advantage from 4500 RPM and up.
Back to area under the curve and extending the torque curve. Guess which vehicle has the greater area here?? The CL-S by about 7.5% with a 20% advantage from 4500 RPM and up.
How the hell does one find the TOTAL AREA under a curve? Excel does it but I cant remember the formula.
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Originally posted by gavriil
if the total area under the torque or HP curve (same thing) is equal, then the cars will accelerate equally, keeping everything else equal.
if the total area under the torque or HP curve (same thing) is equal, then the cars will accelerate equally, keeping everything else equal.
So if a car make more of its power below where the revs drop to during a shift; much of its total area is removed.
Had you limited your statements to show only the total area where the engine revs will be in then I would agree. But that is not what was stated.
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Originally posted by gavriil
Scalbert, although correct the above is, it cannot be used as an example for my main point due to the numerous differences of the above 2 cars. As you said, RWD, etc.
Scalbert, although correct the above is, it cannot be used as an example for my main point due to the numerous differences of the above 2 cars. As you said, RWD, etc.
How the hell does one find the TOTAL AREA under a curve?
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Originally posted by scalbert
This is incorrect when applied to drag racing, etc. It is true if only a single gear is used, gearing is set to allow the entire rev band to be used or a CVT transmission is used. However, a shift will occur and this will drop to revs some but not down to 1k. It may only drop to about 70% of its red line. This eliminates the use of anything below this 70%+ range. So the only real interest after 1st gear is the last 70% of the rev band.
So if a car make more of its power below where the revs drop to during a shift; much of its total area is removed.
Had you limited your statements to show only the total area where the engine revs will be in then I would agree. But that is not what was stated.
This is incorrect when applied to drag racing, etc. It is true if only a single gear is used, gearing is set to allow the entire rev band to be used or a CVT transmission is used. However, a shift will occur and this will drop to revs some but not down to 1k. It may only drop to about 70% of its red line. This eliminates the use of anything below this 70%+ range. So the only real interest after 1st gear is the last 70% of the rev band.
So if a car make more of its power below where the revs drop to during a shift; much of its total area is removed.
Had you limited your statements to show only the total area where the engine revs will be in then I would agree. But that is not what was stated.
In general, what I said was not incorrect, but as you said, I did not limit it to the "after the shift rev band area" point. And that made it incorect.
Bottom line, the total area WHERE THE ENGINE WILL OPERATE DURING THE ACCELERATION RUNS is what matters for all-out acceleration runs, keeping everything else equal. BUT! For that area where the runs happen, torque fluctuations of the 2 different engines dont matter. The TOTAL AREA is what matters.
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So Scalbert, I also now see why you brought the G35 vs CLS graph as an example. So if the CLS makes more power (total area under curve - by the way there must be a scientific term for that measure), at high rpm, where the acceleration competition takes place, shouldnt it be faster (everything else equal)?
Is it the RWD factor that important in this case to make the difference for the G35? Polar Moment of Interia. So much better for RWD cars...
Is it the RWD factor that important in this case to make the difference for the G35? Polar Moment of Interia. So much better for RWD cars...
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Originally posted by gavriil
So Scalbert, I also now see why you brought the G35 vs CLS graph as an example. So if the CLS makes more power (total area under curve - by the way there must be a scientific term for that measure), at high rpm, where the acceleration competition takes place, shouldnt it be faster (everything else equal)?
Is it the RWD factor that important in this case to make the difference for the G35? Polar Moment of Interia. So much better for RWD cars...
So Scalbert, I also now see why you brought the G35 vs CLS graph as an example. So if the CLS makes more power (total area under curve - by the way there must be a scientific term for that measure), at high rpm, where the acceleration competition takes place, shouldnt it be faster (everything else equal)?
Is it the RWD factor that important in this case to make the difference for the G35? Polar Moment of Interia. So much better for RWD cars...
#71
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Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
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Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
hey TypeR ever hear of gear ratios?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about it??? He was saying that because the CL has 1000 more rpm it is better and faster.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by DIO 87 Prelude
hey TypeR ever hear of gear ratios?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about it??? He was saying that because the CL has 1000 more rpm it is better and faster.
they make all the difference...the G makes more HP and torque with a similar curve but doest it for 1000 less rpms and weighs about the same and ends up being just a tick faster in the 1/4 6mt to 6mt
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Originally posted by J98CL
I have heard that the G35 is some what the american Skyline version. My buddy found a site saying that they are the same ride. Has anyone elese heard this?
I have heard that the G35 is some what the american Skyline version. My buddy found a site saying that they are the same ride. Has anyone elese heard this?
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Originally posted by gavriil
(total area under curve - by the way there must be a scientific term for that measure)
(total area under curve - by the way there must be a scientific term for that measure)
This actually brings up another interesting point as I'm typing - I was assuming that for the used portion of the band, an equal time would be spent in any given range. However, you actually will end up spending more time in the sections of the curve with less torque. Needs more thought, but it seems like this fact would somehow favor a car with a flatter torque curve vs. a car with equal area under the curve but a peakier torque curve.
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Originally posted by Aegean_Blue6
Wouldn't this be energy? Power is energy/time, so integrating over time by taking the area under the curve gives you energy.
Wouldn't this be energy? Power is energy/time, so integrating over time by taking the area under the curve gives you energy.
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Originally posted by Aegean_Blue6
This actually brings up another interesting point as I'm typing - I was assuming that for the used portion of the band, an equal time would be spent in any given range. However, you actually will end up spending more time in the sections of the curve with less torque. Needs more thought, but it seems like this fact would somehow favor a car with a flatter torque curve vs. a car with equal area under the curve but a peakier torque curve.
This actually brings up another interesting point as I'm typing - I was assuming that for the used portion of the band, an equal time would be spent in any given range. However, you actually will end up spending more time in the sections of the curve with less torque. Needs more thought, but it seems like this fact would somehow favor a car with a flatter torque curve vs. a car with equal area under the curve but a peakier torque curve.
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The other issue that many times has me thinking is how passengers feel torque, IN RELATION to rpm changes. Obviously torque is felt due to intertia reasons but how will that feeling be affected when:
1. A car that makes tons of torque at mid rpm (e.g. WRX)
2. A car that makes more torque at higher rpm (e.g. S2000)
Assuming they both make equal PEAK HP:
I believe the feeling in the WRX is so much more intense because the torque fluctuations are so much more severe than those in the S2000.
But let's take a car that has a completely flat torque curve. But tons of it in absolute terms. Will the feeling be affected more by the absolute value of torque, or will it be more affected by the severity of torque flactuations?
Scalbert?
1. A car that makes tons of torque at mid rpm (e.g. WRX)
2. A car that makes more torque at higher rpm (e.g. S2000)
Assuming they both make equal PEAK HP:
I believe the feeling in the WRX is so much more intense because the torque fluctuations are so much more severe than those in the S2000.
But let's take a car that has a completely flat torque curve. But tons of it in absolute terms. Will the feeling be affected more by the absolute value of torque, or will it be more affected by the severity of torque flactuations?
Scalbert?
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Originally posted by gavriil
I dont think so. Because time is irrelevant here. It's RPM what's on the other axis. I think the term is..."work". Does that make sense for those that took physics and still remember?
I dont think so. Because time is irrelevant here. It's RPM what's on the other axis. I think the term is..."work". Does that make sense for those that took physics and still remember?
Work. The amount of energy transferred to or from a body or system as a result of forces acting upon the body, causing displacement of the body or parts of it. More specifically the work done by a particular force is the product of the displacement of the body and the component of the force in the direction of the displacement. A force acting perpendicular to the body's displacement does no work on the body. A force acting upon a body which undergoes no displacement does no work on that body. Also, it follows that if there's no motion of a body or any part of the body, nothing did work on the body. See: kinetic energy.
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Originally posted by gavriil
1. A car that makes tons of torque at mid rpm (e.g. WRX)
2. A car that makes more torque at higher rpm (e.g. S2000)
Assuming they both make equal PEAK HP:
I believe the feeling in the WRX is so much more intense because the torque fluctuations are so much more severe than those in the S2000.
But let's take a car that has a completely flat torque curve. But tons of it in absolute terms. Will the feeling be affected more by the absolute value of torque, or will it be more affected by the severity of torque flactuations?
1. A car that makes tons of torque at mid rpm (e.g. WRX)
2. A car that makes more torque at higher rpm (e.g. S2000)
Assuming they both make equal PEAK HP:
I believe the feeling in the WRX is so much more intense because the torque fluctuations are so much more severe than those in the S2000.
But let's take a car that has a completely flat torque curve. But tons of it in absolute terms. Will the feeling be affected more by the absolute value of torque, or will it be more affected by the severity of torque flactuations?
A car will accelerate it fastest; you feel it the most, at the peak torque.
Generally a car with a flat torque curve doesn't feel as fast as one with a greater peak but not flat at all. The consistent pull of a flat torque curve tends to feel less exciting when actually you are doing very well.
I remember something I read years ago when there weren't forums, just BBS or listserv, for doing this very thing. One of the premier GN tuners of the time mentioned that he made a few changes to the car and it felt slower at the track. But when he picked up his time slip he was two tenths quicker than ever before. When back on the dyno he saw that the peak torque had dropped but the curve was flatter and extended out further.
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