15% Ethanol in pre-2007 Engines: What will Happen?
10-14-2010, 09:34 PM
#42
Suzuka Master
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp
Ethanol-free gas stations by state. I can verify some of these to be true by experience.
Ethanol-free gas stations by state. I can verify some of these to be true by experience.
10-22-2010, 06:21 PM
#44
Evil Mazda Driver
Whew.....
http://www.kptv.com/news/25481585/detail.html
http://www.kptv.com/news/25481585/detail.html
SALEM, Ore. -- The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has approved ethanol-gasoline blends with up to 15 percent ethanol, but state officials said the E15 blends will not be offered for sale in Oregon right away.
The state Measurement Standards Division, part of the Oregon Department of Agriculture, said several other steps are needed at the state and national levels before E15 can be pumped in Oregon.
The most important step is approval by the governor and Legislature, officials said. Another is the creation of national standards.
The EPA decision only applies to certain vehicles. The E15 blend was approved for use only in 2007 model cars and light trucks, or newer.
The EPA will decide whether to allow E15 for use in model 2001-2006 vehicles after receiving additional test data.
The state Measurement Standards Division, part of the Oregon Department of Agriculture, said several other steps are needed at the state and national levels before E15 can be pumped in Oregon.
The most important step is approval by the governor and Legislature, officials said. Another is the creation of national standards.
The EPA decision only applies to certain vehicles. The E15 blend was approved for use only in 2007 model cars and light trucks, or newer.
The EPA will decide whether to allow E15 for use in model 2001-2006 vehicles after receiving additional test data.
10-22-2010, 07:56 PM
#45
Senior Moderator
The EPA will decide whether to allow E15 for use in model 2001-2006 vehicles after receiving additional test data.
Oh wait, thats how they got this 10% in there. It will reduce out dependency 
We have so much of this shit in WI its not even funny. The E85 plants have all gone bankrupt yet the govt tosses more money at them to keep them running.
10-22-2010, 09:26 PM
#47
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10-23-2010, 10:05 AM
#48
Racer
For the 2007 stipulation, are they talking about model year 2007, or production year 2007?
For example, my car is a 2007 model year, but the production date is November 2006. Am I included in the E15 "eligible" pool of cars or is the car considered "unable to properly run" on E15?
For example, my car is a 2007 model year, but the production date is November 2006. Am I included in the E15 "eligible" pool of cars or is the car considered "unable to properly run" on E15?
10-23-2010, 11:29 AM
#49
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For the 2007 stipulation, are they talking about model year 2007, or production year 2007?
For example, my car is a 2007 model year, but the production date is November 2006. Am I included in the E15 "eligible" pool of cars or is the car considered "unable to properly run" on E15?
For example, my car is a 2007 model year, but the production date is November 2006. Am I included in the E15 "eligible" pool of cars or is the car considered "unable to properly run" on E15?
10-23-2010, 10:00 PM
#50
Senior Moderator
I wonder what will happen when newer cars fail because of 15% ethanol, my friend that's a BMW tech just had to fix an x6 that came in running like crap cuz it had 15% ethanol fuel, he had to do a fuel analysis n realized this, put in regular 93 with 10% or less ethanol n it ran fine again. EPA is such a pain in the ass.
10-24-2010, 01:17 AM
#51
Senior Moderator
I wonder what will happen when newer cars fail because of 15% ethanol, my friend that's a BMW tech just had to fix an x6 that came in running like crap cuz it had 15% ethanol fuel, he had to do a fuel analysis n realized this, put in regular 93 with 10% or less ethanol n it ran fine again. EPA is such a pain in the ass.
10-24-2010, 08:55 AM
#52
My first Avatar....
Seriously. What are we....the car buying public....supposed to do? Sue the Govt.? This situation seriously sucks.
10-24-2010, 11:10 AM
#53
I wonder what will happen when newer cars fail because of 15% ethanol, my friend that's a BMW tech just had to fix an x6 that came in running like crap cuz it had 15% ethanol fuel, he had to do a fuel analysis n realized this, put in regular 93 with 10% or less ethanol n it ran fine again. EPA is such a pain in the ass.
btw the refineries are not always the best in mixing the ingredients either, because alot of them will manually open a valve and start a timer, then shut if off manually too, not the most precise measurement
10-24-2010, 12:58 PM
#54
Advanced
It obvious that stimulating agriculture is a significant goal here plus the idiots that make policy but don't really understand the science and rather be fed information from so-called experts who have their own agenda to fulfill.
One thing to consider is that no form of fuel is without some pollution footprint, just have to decide which one has the least impact.
One thing to consider is that no form of fuel is without some pollution footprint, just have to decide which one has the least impact.
10-24-2010, 10:58 PM
#55
It obvious that stimulating agriculture is a significant goal here plus the idiots that make policy but don't really understand the science and rather be fed information from so-called experts who have their own agenda to fulfill.
One thing to consider is that no form of fuel is without some pollution footprint, just have to decide which one has the least impact.
One thing to consider is that no form of fuel is without some pollution footprint, just have to decide which one has the least impact.
01-21-2011, 04:58 PM
#56
I feel the need...
EPA Permits 15% Ethanol for Cars Made After 2001
.....Oil companies, automakers and environmental groups say increasing ethanol in fuel may damage engines, boost food prices and worsen air quality, and refiners and convenience stores that sell fuel may be reluctant to market the new blend.....
Wow, bad policy for everyone but :water-s:
01-21-2011, 08:13 PM
#58
Who's to blame? The corn-farming lobbyists?
01-21-2011, 08:49 PM
#60
Senior Moderator
This shit needs to stop. We need lobbyists groups as big as the tree huggers to start anti shit like this.
01-21-2011, 08:58 PM
#62
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01-21-2011, 09:05 PM
#63
Senior Moderator
01-21-2011, 09:08 PM
#64
Needs more Lemon Pledge
Let's not forget that one of the main reasons given for this is to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, yet to grow the corn the farmers will need increased volumes of fertilizer that is produced using, you guessed it, petroleum.
01-22-2011, 02:29 PM
#65
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How much longer before we see a lawsuit against the EPA? I'm hoping before long ethanol will be illegal in fuel, as anyone with half a brain knows it is not beneficial at all.
01-22-2011, 02:33 PM
#66
Senior Moderator
There already is a filing against it by all auto manufacturers and a few others. Hopefully it wins
01-22-2011, 02:35 PM
#67
Senior Moderator
Yet no one that has lobbied for or voted in has used a single brain cell in their puny heads to realize that you cant reduce dependency on it if you use more of it because mileage drops.
01-22-2011, 05:00 PM
#68
Evil Mazda Driver
In fact in the owners manual of my Santa Fe (and I'm sure the RL and RX) it has a passage about not using more than 10% ethanol. If I were to use 15%, I'm sure it would cause engine damage and Hyundai would not honor the warranty because they only designed it to run up to E10. Does the EPA know? Of course. Do they care? Of course not. They are there to pander to special-interest groups who have to have their product forced on the public because nobody in their right mind would go looking for it. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before dealerships are flooded with newer cars with engine damage due to E15.
01-22-2011, 05:33 PM
#69
Senior Moderator
Booooo to ethanol. Who the fsck thinks this stuff up? I can't stand using it. Luckily, the gas station I go to on a regular basis has none.
01-22-2011, 05:40 PM
#70
Team Owner
I agree that this is complete garbage and someone is getting paid.
It's danger to cars is pretty much limited to the fuel system and potentially emissions controls.
The stoich of E10 is 14.0 as apposed to gasoline's 14.7. If the car is not designed to deal with this, the ECU is going to shoot for gasoline's stoich and cause a leaner mixture over the entire range.
So it will translate to a rough idle, drivability issues, and more potential for detonation. Catalytic convertors aren't going to like the excessively lean mixture but I suppose it's not as bad as an always rich mixture.
Fuel system capacity has to be increased depending on the headroom of the stock system. More volume= larger injectors and fuel pump with the possibility of the lines and regulator and of course everything rubber. Regardless I don't want that headroom taken away as it may be needed as the system ages.
If the car is designed for this fuel, the timing can be bumped along with boost if FI to somewhat compensate for the mpg and power loss. If not, you're going to see a significant loss in mpg.
I wish they would at least give us a higher octane version. My Tl has pinged under power since new. Most of them do if looked at on a scanner. If I'm going to be forced to use this stuff, make it in a higher octane so at least it will take care of the pinging and pull less timing.
The only bright side and it's a very small percentage of the population is it has made large injectors dirt cheap and reliable. I can get 83lb injectors for about half the price I used to when they were a race only item. Some of our guys are able to run race gas boost levels resulting in 100-300hp gains depending on the setup.
It's danger to cars is pretty much limited to the fuel system and potentially emissions controls.
The stoich of E10 is 14.0 as apposed to gasoline's 14.7. If the car is not designed to deal with this, the ECU is going to shoot for gasoline's stoich and cause a leaner mixture over the entire range.
So it will translate to a rough idle, drivability issues, and more potential for detonation. Catalytic convertors aren't going to like the excessively lean mixture but I suppose it's not as bad as an always rich mixture.
Fuel system capacity has to be increased depending on the headroom of the stock system. More volume= larger injectors and fuel pump with the possibility of the lines and regulator and of course everything rubber. Regardless I don't want that headroom taken away as it may be needed as the system ages.
If the car is designed for this fuel, the timing can be bumped along with boost if FI to somewhat compensate for the mpg and power loss. If not, you're going to see a significant loss in mpg.
I wish they would at least give us a higher octane version. My Tl has pinged under power since new. Most of them do if looked at on a scanner. If I'm going to be forced to use this stuff, make it in a higher octane so at least it will take care of the pinging and pull less timing.
The only bright side and it's a very small percentage of the population is it has made large injectors dirt cheap and reliable. I can get 83lb injectors for about half the price I used to when they were a race only item. Some of our guys are able to run race gas boost levels resulting in 100-300hp gains depending on the setup.
01-22-2011, 06:35 PM
#71
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I wish they would at least give us a higher octane version. My Tl has pinged under power since new. Most of them do if looked at on a scanner. If I'm going to be forced to use this stuff, make it in a higher octane so at least it will take care of the pinging and pull less timing.
Edit: Nevermind, CA gets the same shit gas as we do in CO I believe. Aren't they running closer to 100 octane over in Europe anyways?
01-22-2011, 08:00 PM
#74
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Try living in CO where all we get is 91, 87, and 85, and my car running 91 still runs like complete shit. I have a rough idle, constant CEL's due to a lean mixture, and am getting about 18mpg compared to the 22-25mpg range I had over the summer.
Edit: Nevermind, CA gets the same shit gas as we do in CO I believe. Aren't they running closer to 100 octane over in Europe anyways?
Edit: Nevermind, CA gets the same shit gas as we do in CO I believe. Aren't they running closer to 100 octane over in Europe anyways?
2) California sucks
2) Europe and Japan measure octane differently, so its not a fair comparison.
01-22-2011, 08:02 PM
#75
Try living in CO where all we get is 91, 87, and 85, and my car running 91 still runs like complete shit. I have a rough idle, constant CEL's due to a lean mixture, and am getting about 18mpg compared to the 22-25mpg range I had over the summer.
Edit: Nevermind, CA gets the same shit gas as we do in CO I believe. Aren't they running closer to 100 octane over in Europe anyways?
Edit: Nevermind, CA gets the same shit gas as we do in CO I believe. Aren't they running closer to 100 octane over in Europe anyways?
but i still think it is still slightly higher octane then the stuff we have here...
but i think the other advantage they have though, is that the gas quality is alot better there, then it is here though, so the car manufacture's can design engine closer to the limit of the fuel itself
01-22-2011, 08:06 PM
#76
Evil Mazda Driver
I did a double-take when driving through Utah and almost put the 85 octane in my old Santa Fe when I was en route to Kansas City in '09. I put plus (88 octane) in it and it ran great.
01-22-2011, 08:42 PM
#78
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E15, huh?
Sure, no problem, just rebuild my engine, fuel system, and exhaust to cope with it, drop the price by about 50% to compensate for the MPG hit, oh, and give me a coupe turbochargers to make up for its lower energy rating. I guarantee we'll all embrace E15 with open arms
Sure, no problem, just rebuild my engine, fuel system, and exhaust to cope with it, drop the price by about 50% to compensate for the MPG hit, oh, and give me a coupe turbochargers to make up for its lower energy rating. I guarantee we'll all embrace E15 with open arms
01-22-2011, 08:52 PM
#79
Senior Moderator
This stuff is going to be especially bad for every ones lawn mowers and boats. This stuff is destroying them (as fuel sits longer in the tanks causing the water to separate from it even more) Small engine repair is up something like 800% since 10% being forced on most
01-22-2011, 08:53 PM
#80
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pure-gas.org has a petition that can be signed to remove all ethanol-blend stations.
Only one in my area that sells it is Shell, and only 91
Only one in my area that sells it is Shell, and only 91