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under-exposure with XTI?

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Old 03-31-2008, 12:52 PM
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under-exposure with XTI?

Hi all,

I just got a used 400D (i.e. XTi). It is about a year old, in good condition, but no warranty.

Anyways, i took it on a spin this weekend around NYC around 3-6pm. For some reason, almost all of the pictures came out underexposed (using auto, manual and AV modes)....here are some examples:














I did some searching on the 'net and it appears that this is a problem with many XTi's. Most people have sent their cameras into Cannon, who fixes the issue and returns the camera. However, since I bought mine second-hand, and also because the thing was originally purchased in Europe, the camera is out of warranty and I am looking at a $180 fix if i send it (clearly undesirable....i dont want to end up paying the equivalent of a new camera body)

I mean, the first thing i need to check when I get home is to see if that EC is changed on the manual modes (not sure how to do this though), as a holdover from the previous owner.

What do you guys think about this? Do you think it is my lack of skill? The camera? The setting (i.e. bad time of day)? Not sure what to do about this....
Old 03-31-2008, 01:17 PM
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what the heck is an AUTO function???

i rarely use auto.. .but now ur making me wanna go try it out on my own camera.

i usually use "P"
Old 03-31-2008, 01:49 PM
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I don't know off-hand what method(s) the XTi uses for metering, but if it's evaluative that could be the reason.
Old 03-31-2008, 02:48 PM
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just because its in the middle of the spectrum doesn't mean that it will be developed correctly, thats what the screen is for. take the pic, if i looks bright or dark on the screen then adjust the wheel and try again..
Old 03-31-2008, 03:16 PM
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is the exposure compensation set to -1 or -2 from the previous owner? Is there a style defined that is selected and is underexposing?
Old 03-31-2008, 05:51 PM
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well i guess on further reflection, looking at the shots above, it kind of makes sense why the camera adjusted to those exposures. for the car pictures, the reflection of the sky introduced a lot of light, so the camera adjusted the exposure downwards so as to not blow out the highlights.

The church shot is probably properly exposed....the area in the shade isn't too dark to block the detail, and the area in the sun, if exposed more, would be way too blurry bright. The exposure on the picture of the side of the building with the hardware store painting on it appears underexposed if you look at the surrounding buildings, but the subject appears to be well developed.....good colors and contrast.

And finally, the dude on the wooden wall probably could have used a little +2/3 on the EC, but isn't terrible.

so i guess its not all bad....I will just have to pay closer attention to the EC levels
Old 03-31-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ViperrepiV
What do you guys think about this? Do you think it is my lack of skill? The camera? The setting (i.e. bad time of day)? Not sure what to do about this....


Originally Posted by ViperrepiV
well i guess on further reflection, looking at the shots above, it kind of makes sense why the camera adjusted to those exposures. for the car pictures, the reflection of the sky introduced a lot of light, so the camera adjusted the exposure downwards so as to not blow out the highlights.

The church shot is probably properly exposed....the area in the shade isn't too dark to block the detail, and the area in the sun, if exposed more, would be way too blurry bright. The exposure on the picture of the side of the building with the hardware store painting on it appears underexposed if you look at the surrounding buildings, but the subject appears to be well developed.....good colors and contrast.

And finally, the dude on the wooden wall probably could have used a little +2/3 on the EC, but isn't terrible.

so i guess its not all bad....I will just have to pay closer attention to the EC levels

What happened in the 5 hrs. between your posts? An epiphany?
I totally agree with your second post. The glass reflection will hit the sensor w/ light and underexpose the shot. I still would have brought up the exposure on the hardware store a bit to bring out the bright color.
Maybe try some general landscape or indoor shots. Those might be easier for everyone to compare, as those lighting conditions can be more universal in levels.
Old 03-31-2008, 06:16 PM
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There's not much you can do to fix an underexposure problem when shooting in Auto, so focus your efforts on fixing the problem in Av/Tv/M mode.

First things to check:
1) In Av or Tv, see if the exposure compensation is dialed down a little. If shooting in Manual, there isn't exposure compensation, but you can still see if the scene is going to be underxposed before you take the shot by looking at the meter at the bottom of the viewfinder. If it's on the left side, then the shot will be under.
2) Understand how your metering system works and choose an appropriate metering mode for the type of shooting you're doing. On your camera, you can choose between Evaluative, Partial, and Center Weighted. Evaluative gives priority to whatever has been locked on by the autofocus system. If all points are locked on, it's just doing an average metering. Partial is sort of like a big spot meter. It meters approximately 10% of the center of your viewfinder. You'll find it's useful for shooting someone who is standing in front of a window or a sunset where there is a strong backlight. Center Weighted still looks at the whole scene, but as the name implies, more weight is going to be assigned to the center of the frame when it does its exposure calculations. It used to be all cameras would default to center weighted, but now most default to Evaluative. Try both and see what works best for you.
Old 03-31-2008, 06:42 PM
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My Advice:















Listen to Dan.
Old 03-31-2008, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dougler
My Advice:















Listen to Dan.




but



Old 03-31-2008, 07:48 PM
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I had the xti i generally hate using any auto features and learned manual mode.

Then attempted to learn av and tv and p modes.

I was better off learning manual.
Old 03-31-2008, 08:12 PM
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mine did the same thing, for me all it took was to reset the settings and it fixed it for me...
Old 03-31-2008, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by PimpCL23
what the heck is an AUTO function???

i rarely use auto.. .but now ur making me wanna go try it out on my own camera.

i usually use "P"

Isn't "P" exactly the same as auto, just without the flash?
Old 03-31-2008, 08:43 PM
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I don't think auto lets you choose white ballance, file format, and a dozen or so other things.
Old 03-31-2008, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
There's not much you can do to fix an underexposure problem when shooting in Auto, so focus your efforts on fixing the problem in Av/Tv/M mode.

First things to check:
1) In Av or Tv, see if the exposure compensation is dialed down a little. If shooting in Manual, there isn't exposure compensation, but you can still see if the scene is going to be underxposed before you take the shot by looking at the meter at the bottom of the viewfinder. If it's on the left side, then the shot will be under.
2) Understand how your metering system works and choose an appropriate metering mode for the type of shooting you're doing. On your camera, you can choose between Evaluative, Partial, and Center Weighted. Evaluative gives priority to whatever has been locked on by the autofocus system. If all points are locked on, it's just doing an average metering. Partial is sort of like a big spot meter. It meters approximately 10% of the center of your viewfinder. You'll find it's useful for shooting someone who is standing in front of a window or a sunset where there is a strong backlight. Center Weighted still looks at the whole scene, but as the name implies, more weight is going to be assigned to the center of the frame when it does its exposure calculations. It used to be all cameras would default to center weighted, but now most default to Evaluative. Try both and see what works best for you.
Thanks Dan, that helps explain quite a bit. As you can see, I'm still trying to soak all of this up....so many options! With so many combinations of settings, it really takes my appreciation of photography to the next level (and makes it that much more intimidating). But i guess its not something you pick up overnight.

It turns out that the camera was set on partial metering, and in most cases, there was no EC adjustment. Looking at the pics, I can see where I went wrong in most cases.

As far as the epiphany, I changed computer monitors and gave it a closer look (i was in a panic at first due to the forum posts I found on issues with the camera).

I also found a lot of good stuff though. This post on one forum was particularly helpful:

This applies to everyone who recently bought a Canon Rebel series or D-series camera and have not touched their metering modes yet:

When we refer to the camera's metering modes, we are referring to the one of 3 modes your DSLR uses to determine the correct exposure for the scene you are looking at.

From the factory, your Rebel XTi comes set for Evaluative metering. If you refer to your manual, you'll see that this metering mode essentially treats the entire scene in the viewfinder as the "metering area". It takes all the lights, all the darks, everything in between, and averages them out to get you an exposure right in the middle of everything.

Now, before I continue, you must understand how the camera reads light. Have you ever been out walking in snow on a bright sunny day? It's an extremely bright scene and most people need to wear shades just to stop from squinting. If you were to take a photograph of this, you would expect that photograph to come out with the ground a bright white ... because you, as a thinking human being, understand that the brightness level of what you're looking at (pure white snow) is supposed to be very bright.

Your camera has NO IDEA what you're shooting at.

This is important. Your camera will try to expose EVERYTHING to what is reffered to as "middle gray" or "18% gray". Your camera doesn't know its snow ... it just knows that there is X amount of light coming from this object and I need to move exposure to X to capture it. Whether you are in Evaluative, Partial, Center-weighted, or spot metering modes ... your camera will try to expose whatever is in the metering area to an average of 18% gray.

In the first photo posted in this thread, the one of the flower, the background is filled with white aluminum siding and the majority of the foreground is filled with yellow (a shade that I would definitely consider brighter than 18% gray) petals. As the camera sees this "light" ... it doesn't know that that's a bright yellow flower and should be exposed brightly, it doesn't understand that that is white aluminum siding and should be exposed brightly ... it just takes an average (and in this case, the average is quite bright) light reading and exposes it so that it is rendered as 18% gray which, obviously, appears dark to human beings who expect white and bright-yellow objects to be just that .... bright.

When exposing any subject, in any metering mode, you must always keep in mind the luminocity of what you are metering off of. If you are taking a picture of a black table-cloth and that cloth takes up a considerable amount of the frame .... your camera is going to over-expose that table-cloth in an attempt to render it an 18% gray .... it will NOT try to render it black for you.

If you're still having difficulty understanding this, go to your bathroom right now, take your camera with you. Put your camera in Av mode (aperture priority mode), leave the flash down (do not use it), and set your ISO at whatever you want. Lay two towels on the ground, one white, one black.

Fill up the viewfinder with the black towel, half depress the shutter button, and take a look at what shutter speed the camera has decided is "correct" for that exposure. Now move over to the white towel and do the same. Note the extreme difference in shutter speeds that your camera has determined is needed to shoot these two different objects. Keep in mind that since both objects are in the same room and should be sitting in the same amount of light .... the correct EV (exposure value) for both is in actuality, identical.

Back to the flower picture. The correct way to shoot this flower would have been to set the camera to Partial metering ... partial metering uses a small area in the center of the viewfinder (a circle roughly the size of 9% of the total viewfinder coverage) as it's metering area. Now, since the subject, in this case, a flower, is something that should most likely be rendered slightly brighter than 18% gray ..... set your Exposure Compensation on the camera (refer to the manual if you are unsure how) to +2/3rds (approximately) of a stop and take the picture.

What you have done here is tell the camera that this is supposed to be a bright object, approximately 2/3rds of a stop brighter than 18% gray, and that's how you want the camera to expose whatever it is metering off of.

The bunny picture suffers the same fate .... the bunny takes up a large portion of the photograph and is stark white. The camera will underexpose him down to an 18% gray. Because he is stark white, I would suggest setting exposure compensation on him to approx +1 2/3rds of a stop (he should be rendered brighter than the flower).

For landscape shooters, it is important to keep this in mind because your "scene" will often be littered with a sky that is brighter or darker than your subject ... or in some cases, white clouds which can be even more devastating to your exposure value. Chose your metering mode wisely and take a moment to think about how your camera is looking at the scene.

For portrait shooters (like me), this is important because the difference in light between shooting an African-American and an un-tanned caucasian (as an example) can be great. I always meter off someone's face and I will use +2/3rds of a stop exposure compensation for pale white folks, -2/3rds of a stop exposure compensation for very dark folks, and I'll leave it right about dead center for well-tanned individuals.

I'd like to point out that this is not a bug, or a problem with your Rebel XTi ... this is a problem that all cameras face and is a limiting ability of their reflective light meter (which only reads the light that is reflected off an object). A much more accurate way to determine the correct exposure value for a particular situation is to use an incident light meter which measures the amount of light hitting your subject, instead of the amount of light reflecting off your subject.

Using the previous towel example, if you had taken an incident light reading inside the room, set your camera to that exact exposure in M mode, and shot both towels .... they would both be exposed properly, the white would look white, and the black would look black.

Let me know if anyone has any questions about this. Again, this is not a problem with the Rebel, all of the underexposure problems I have seen on these forums regarding the rebel have to do with the shooter not understanding metering or how the cameras sees light.
Old 03-31-2008, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by stogie1020
Isn't "P" exactly the same as auto, just without the flash?
not really...i mean it picks the f-stop and shutter speed for you, but you set the ISO, exposure, white balance, etc.

i find AUTO to be very annoying...the flash pops up when you don't want it...it sets your ISO too high sometimes (based on your lighting)...it's kind of like driving in D when i much more prefer M...
Old 03-31-2008, 09:35 PM
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Ahh.... You guys are right. I forgot about the ISO, WB, etc...
Old 03-31-2008, 09:53 PM
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I am using mine a "P" mode.

As for the original poster, I like the pictures you took. A little dark, but it shows the shadows and very good detail IMHO. I like it, but as for exposure, I set mine to +1 and then use flash ON
Old 04-01-2008, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by rimz
not really...i mean it picks the f-stop and shutter speed for you, but you set the ISO, exposure, white balance, etc.

i find AUTO to be very annoying...the flash pops up when you don't want it...it sets your ISO too high sometimes (based on your lighting)...it's kind of like driving in D when i much more prefer M...
you know whats funny about that, when i was at hot import nights, i saw some guy trying to take a picture of a car.

i guess he didnt want the flash to keep popping up and eventually got frustrated with it popping up all the time and just covered the flash with his hand
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