World Economic Crisis Impact on Auto Sector **Saab's Problems (page 6)**

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Old 11-03-2008, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
^^ Who is gonna help Toyota, Honda & Nissan?
Japanese government?
Old 11-03-2008, 07:39 PM
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wow.....
Old 11-03-2008, 09:34 PM
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To paraphrase a famous sage :

This industry needs an enema!

I think there are just too many cars, with a lot of them overpriced and badly designed/built/serviced. Only the best cars and companies will survive this downturn while the back markers will be flushed away. In the long run, we will be better for it.

Weak companies like Chrysler should be put out of their misery.
Old 11-07-2008, 02:28 PM
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Well... looks like this post has finally come to fruition.

Third quarter losses...
GM: $4.2 Billion
Ford: $129 million

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27593678/
Old 11-07-2008, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by death
Well... looks like this post has finally come to fruition.

Third quarter losses...
GM: $4.2 Billion
Ford: $129 million

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27593678/
There's no magic in this. Everything happened in the past few years all point to this final destination. Sad indeed.
Old 11-11-2008, 08:39 AM
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11/10/2008, 6:00 pm
general motors news
gm collapse could spell disaster for ford, toyota, honda

general motors is facing the most serious financial crisis of its 100 year existence, with bankruptcy looking like a very real risk. Although there is talk of a bailout package in washington, nothing has come to fruition yet, leaving gm on life support with only enough cash on hand to survive until mid-2009. There is no question that a chapter 11 filing would be detrimental to gm and its employees, but the failure of the nation’s largest automaker would spell disaster for the u.s. Economy.

According to automotive news, the failure of gm – or any other member of the big three – would send a domino effect through the industry, bringing down dealers, suppliers and even foreign automakers.

Because automakers and suppliers are so intertwined, the failure of one car maker has the potential to bring down several suppliers. In turn, those bankrupt suppliers would interrupt ford and chrysler’s supply lines, which would likely be enough to topple the already crippled automakers.

The suppliers that would be left after the fall out would struggle to supply the foreign automakers that have factories in north america, meaning companies like honda and toyota could face some very dire straits.

“if gm goes down, it will take down companies like lear and johnson controls,” wolkonowicz says. “that will shut ford down, and it would shut down production at toyota and honda,” john wolkonowicz, an analyst for global insight, told automotive news. “they would go down like dominoes.”

outside of the auto industry, the collapse of one or two of the detroit automakers would have a tremendous impact on the u.s. Economy as a whole. According to a new study by the center for automotive research, the failure of one or two of the domestic automakers would results in the loss of 240,000 automaker jobs, 795,000 supplier jobs and 1.4 million related jobs.

President-elect barack obama has pledged to make the ailing auto industry his top priority, but it remains to be seen if the government can move fast enough to save the industry and the economy.


11/10/2008, 10:10 pm
general motors news
wagoner: Gm needs federal aid ‘within weeks;’ unwilling to resign

general motors cannot wait until barack obama’s january 20th inauguration as president of the united states to get financial aid from the government, ceo rick wagoner said in an interview published monday evening. Rather, the company needs help within the coming weeks to regain stability.

U.s. Congressional leaders have asked bush administration treasury secretary henry paulson to add the automakers to the $700 billion financial rescue plan, but so far no decision has been made. The current administration has planned on leaving such decisions to obama’s team, but according to wagoner, there might not be time for that.

As noted earlier, analysts believe the collapse of gm could spell disaster for other auto giants like ford, toyota, and honda. Not to mention the possible effect it could have on the u.s. Economy as a whole.

“this is an issue that needs to be addressed urgently,” wagoner told automotive news, stating that now is the time to “overshoot, not undershoot” the scope of assistance.

Wagoner said gm is willing to cap executive pay, give the government preferred stock, and rush more fuel efficient vehicles to market. But he’s unwilling to step down as ceo, and he doesn’t think major management changes will solve the problem.

“i don’t think it’d be a very smart move,” he said. “i think our job is to make sure we have the best management team to run gm. It’s not clear to me what purpose would be served [by resignation].”

11/11/2008, 10:27 am
canada
canada mulls providing aid to detroit

canada’s prime minister said yesterday that he is considering providing monetary aid to the united states auto industry, which plays a large economic role in canada. Prime minister stephen harper said that he is looking at options to help out the auto sector, specifically general motors, ford and chrysler.

All three automakers operate production facilities in canada and employ numerous canadians by way of dealers, suppliers and regional offices.

Harper said that he understands the massively detrimental effect on canada’s economy that a failure in detroit would produce, but he is opposed to a sector of the economy under government control or incapable of operating without government intervention.

“we are all aware of the deep problems of some of the major companies in the auto sector. We are also aware of some of the actions that are taking shape in the united states,” harper told the associated press. “the government of canada will examine all possibilities. We haven’t ruled anything out or anything in.”

ontario premier dalton mcguinty, who presides over the region most engulfed in the auto industry, said that canada can’t compete with already-committed u.s. Bailout offer of $25 billion.

Canada has about half a million workers in fields directly related to the auto industry.

lln...
Old 11-11-2008, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dom
lln...
It could be a good move from Harper to bail 'em out before the states do and obviously make them sign major commitments to breathing life back into the Canadian auto industry. Get them by the nuts while their vulnerable.
Old 11-11-2008, 11:28 AM
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We have more car dealers in my town than fast food joints. This is horribly, horribly wrong.
Old 11-12-2008, 09:37 AM
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Running out of options

Rather than saving the U.S. auto industry, a bailout of Detroit would encourage more mismanagement

David Olive
BUSINESS COLUMNIST

Nov 10, 2008


With all three Detroit-based automakers in dire straits and seeking a Washington bailout, the moment finally has arrived for a radical reinvention of America's domestically owned auto industry. Which means letting the Detroit Three reorganize under bankruptcy protection, from which several smaller, more nimble and competitive firms would emerge, no longer prisoner to Detroit's hidebound, century-old decision-making traditions.

To bail out Detroit is not to rescue the U.S. auto industry, despite how the CEOs of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC continue to misrepresent the federal bailout they seek.

For more than two decades, there have been two U.S. auto sectors. There is the familiar Detroit Three (no longer the Big Three), which are corporate cripples after decades of mismanagement.

And there are the much healthier U.S. operations of Asian and European automakers that employ millions of Americans turning out Hondas, Toyotas and BMWs, sooner or later to be joined by Chinese and Indian makers. The foreign-based firms already operate 16 vehicle assembly plants and dozens of parts plants from Alabama to Ohio to Ontario.

Led by GM, Detroit is again a holdout against progress, arguing for the continuation of a failed status quo, just as it resisted everything from today's life-saving three-point seatbelts to fuel-efficiency standards to the devastating (to Detroit) recent shift in consumer demand to small cars from gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles and heavy trucks.

Detroit arguably stands alone in chronically failing to "get it" since its laudable introduction of enclosed passenger cabins and automatic transmissions before most of today's motorists were born.

One way or another, Detroit has been cosseted by taxpayers and motorists since the ill-fated Chrysler bailout of 1979; followed by the Reagan-era "voluntary" quotas imposed on imports, which did not deter American consumers from paying the resulting higher prices for better-built Hondas and Toyotas; followed by repeated abeyance or postponements of fuel-efficiency standards the feds sought to impose on Detroit.

The ill-fated 1979 Chrysler bailout, which secured that company's viability for just two decades, signalled the larger GM and Ford that they also were "too big to fail" and needn't abandon their complacent ways. The import quotas inspired first the Asian rivals and later the Europeans to leapfrog that barrier by making in America most of the vehicles they sell in America. And granting Detroit leave from onerous fuel-efficiency standards enabled the foreign-based competition to gain a competitive advantage by complying with or exceeding the U.S. mandates.

Detroit's sense of exceptionalism has not diminished.

Rick Wagoner, GM's chief executive, was on Capitol Hill last Thursday making a pitch for taxpayer assistance in financing its proposed merger with Chrysler – this after Detroit had secured in September $25 billion (U.S.) in federal funds to finance development of fuel-efficient vehicles.

Yes, you read that correctly. Developing products necessary to ensure their future, as foreign-based firms have long since done with their own money, is something Detroit has to be paid public money to do.

At a moment when Washington is trying to come up with the scratch to keep imperilled homeowners from losing their homes, the Detroit makers further propose that the additional bailout funds they seek – a rumoured $10 billion in GM's case – be carved out of the $700 billion bank bailout fund that U.S. lawmakers rightly criticize for failing to provide for homeowners as well as Wall Street banks and brokerages.

As if chutzpah weren't enough – GM's finance arm, GMAC LLC, which has lost $9.1 billion in the past two years as a mortgage-lending enabler in the historic collapse of the U.S. housing market – Detroit is also stooping to coercion.

GM has lost an almost incomprehensible $70 billion (U.S.) since the end of 2004, while the U.S. economy was still healthy, and yesterday reported a $2.5-billion third-quarter loss.

Barack Obama backer Roger Altman, the former Clinton-era Treasury official forced to quit under an ethical cloud, and now a top adviser to GM in its merger talks with Chrysler, warned the Obama economic team publicly last week that the collapse of any of the Detroit Three "would be a difficult way for a new administration" to take office.

Reading from the same scare-tactics script, John Snow, a mediocre if generously compensated CEO of U.S. rail giant CSX before becoming George W. Bush's second, invisible, Treasury secretary, and now chair of Chrysler owner Cerberus Capital Management LP, told CNBC that Washington must ensure "that a vital industry like autos, which is such a big part of the overall economy, doesn't lead us into a deeper and harsher downturn."

Any bailout of GM, enabling it to purchase Chrysler, would be a bailout of the short-sighted dealmakers at private-equity firm Cerberus in their exquisitely ill-timed bet on Chrysler in buying the firm from Daimler AG last year, only to see Chrysler's fortunes further plummet after the deal.

Detroit has been a significant destroyer of jobs and shareholder value for the past decade, and sporadically in decades past, as well. Worse, its sclerotic decision-making has helped hold America back from technological leadership in one of the world's major industries.

As the cockpit of capitalism, banking is an essential service whose seize-up this September required a bailout by global governments. The auto sector is not as important, and the Detroit Three no longer account for more than a fraction of that sector.

And the latest straw GM is grasping at, a combination with Chrysler, proves again how lacking in smarts is the existing troika of Detroit CEOs. A GM already burdened with too many brands (eight) merged with Chrysler's three brands would require a years-long shedding of jobs and closing of excess plant capacity in search of the "synergies" that former Chrysler owner Daimler found so elusive in its sorry nine-year-long ownership of the firm.

If an Obama who last week pledged to make aid to Detroit a top priority is serious about change, he will rule out a Detroit bailout. Or he and Congress will effectively nationalize Detroit, deploying a team of experts to preside over the dismantling of these firms that for generations have lacked the managerial acuity of founders William Durant and Alfred Sloan of GM, Henry Ford and Walter P. Chrysler.
http://www.wheels.ca/reviews/article/466716
Old 11-12-2008, 09:59 AM
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Detroit Three need to learn a harsh lesson.

So do the unions.

The results of years and years of near-sighted (mis)management are finally surfacing. Instead of a band-aid temporary fix, i.e. bail-out plan, they need to be completely reorganized. They have become obese and never had the preparations or the foresight to see this coming.

While the transplants were putting in efforts to run lean production, the obesity problem at the Detroit Three were just getting worse and worse. Plus they lacked the foresight to prepare for future changes in the market... yet they have the same amount of, if not more than, manpower as foreign automakers. Not to mention that this is the Detroit Three's home turf.

Very sad and disappointing, but they need to cut the fat, i.e. union workers, and run a skeleton crew for a while and build it back up in the years to come.



Unions are experiencing difficulties due to declining membership, so in order to give themselves a boost, they have proposed and backed the Employee Free Choice Act. Contrary to the cornerstone philosophy and spirit of democracy that this country is built upon, it takes away the rights of laborers to secret ballot elections. And the Detroit Three now want more money, to be carved out of the $700 billion plan meant for Average Joe Americans. They want Americans to sacrifice for their own survival.

Now tell me why we don't just throw them all into a cesspool and step down on their heads.
Old 11-12-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Detroit Three need to learn a harsh lesson.

So do the unions.
I disagree...

Like in some video games where you're choices in stage 8 are limited because of what you did in stage 2 and there's nothing you can do to improve your situation in stage 8 except start over, there's no more harsh lessons to learn at this point and the Detroit 3 and unions need to just die out (bankruptcy) and start over (and if with unions, at least smarter union contracts).
Old 11-12-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I disagree...

Like in some video games where you're choices in stage 8 are limited because of what you did in stage 2 and there's nothing you can do to improve your situation in stage 8 except start over, there's no more harsh lessons to learn at this point and the Detroit 3 and unions need to just die out (bankruptcy) and start over (and if with unions, at least smarter union contracts).
Did you... read the rest of my post?

I think we're singing the same tune.
Old 11-12-2008, 11:51 AM
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I personally don't see a "bail out" happening before Obama takes office.
Like Bush or not he's a "lame duck." so i think he's sitting there collecting a paycheck, hanging out and riding out his days as "kind of president."

Now if y'all listened to future president Obama on Friday he did his first announcement to the nation. he indirectly said he'd bail out the automotive companies. he didn't flat out say it. but i took it as he's gonna be the "superman" for them.

i'll be honest: I didn't vote Obama . I voted McCain. but Obama got a busy first 6 months he's in office if he does what he claims to get both the automotive sector right plus get country right.
Old 11-12-2008, 01:51 PM
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Jim Flaherty (our finance minister) just impressed the hell out of me with this little interview:

People oppose auto bailout: Flaherty

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said some people in his own Ontario riding – a key centre of automobile assembly – do not want the car companies to be bailed out.

“There are many people saying we should do something with respect to the auto sector,” he told an economic conference in Toronto. But even in Whitby-Oshawa, which is the Canadian home of General Motors, “there are lots of people who say: ‘Don't do anything; don't use my tax money to bail out an enterprise that may not survive'.”

The people who have told him this are not rich, Mr. Flaherty said, but “people on the street.”

Mr. Flaherty said, however, that he expects there will be a legislative proposal some time soon from the U.S. Congress for a bailout of the large automobile companies.

He said he has had discussions with the three big Detroit-based car makers, but the money that is available in Canada is for “transformational” support.

Canada needs to find a way to ensure that the industry has a product mix that is going to sustain demand, he said. “At the end of the day we need car makers who are making cars that people want to buy.”

Earlier in the day Mr. Flaherty told a news conference that Ottawa is “monitoring” the automotive industry, but it has not yet decided what action can be taken to support that sector. He said Industry Minister Tony Clement is talking to the auto companies “and we'll see what we're able to formulate for the industry.”
http://www.reportonbusiness.com/serv.../Business/home



I know the auto industry is a huge portion of our economy here in Ontario, being that we produce more cars than Detroit does, but the market should dictate who lives and who dies. If it's really just a matter of securing credit so the companies can lease/finance cars for their customers, then I don't see a problem with throwing some money their way. However, if it means that they are going to be using that money to build cars or trucks that nobody is going to buy just for the sake of keeping the factory running, then that just doesn't make sense.

Since it's our money that will be funding the production line, maybe we should get to vote on what cars they're allowed to produce.
Old 11-12-2008, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Did you... read the rest of my post?

I think we're singing the same tune.
no...too many words. I'm lazy.
Old 11-12-2008, 03:12 PM
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Auto sector bail out now.

Who's next ? Steel sector, airline sector, .......

The US is going to become the largest debtor country on earth, with far reaching economical consequences well into the future generations and future national growth. Forget about short-term solutions. Think further into long-term solutions.
Old 11-12-2008, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
Auto sector bail out now.

Who's next ? Steel sector, airline sector, .......

The US is going to become the largest debtor country on earth, with far reaching economical consequences well into the future generations and future national growth. Forget about short-term solutions. Think further into long-term solutions.
The U.S. leadership has been governing and thinking short term for quite some time now.

We are a reactionary government, not a proactive government.

The days of the U.S. with forward thinking government are far behind us.
Old 11-12-2008, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
Jim Flaherty (our finance minister) just impressed the hell out of me with this little interview:



http://www.reportonbusiness.com/serv.../Business/home



I know the auto industry is a huge portion of our economy here in Ontario, being that we produce more cars than Detroit does, but the market should dictate who lives and who dies. If it's really just a matter of securing credit so the companies can lease/finance cars for their customers, then I don't see a problem with throwing some money their way. However, if it means that they are going to be using that money to build cars or trucks that nobody is going to buy just for the sake of keeping the factory running, then that just doesn't make sense.

Since it's our money that will be funding the production line, maybe we should get to vote on what cars they're allowed to produce.
while i agree with this little article and impresed with you guy's prime minister. You know GM and Chrysler gonna cry like a little bitch to president Obama(once he gets in) begging for cash. another reason i think he'll cut them a "open check" is the Unions REALLY pushed for him. but then again you look at the UAW they've endorsed Democrats clear back to like JFK
Old 11-12-2008, 06:43 PM
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burn baby, burn down the house
Old 11-12-2008, 06:57 PM
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Wow....just wow!
Old 11-12-2008, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno

Like in some video games where you're choices in stage 8 are limited because of what you did in stage 2 and there's nothing you can do to improve your situation in stage 8 except start over, there's no more harsh lessons to learn at this point and the Detroit 3 and unions need to just die out (bankruptcy) and start over (and if with unions, at least smarter union contracts).
I agree. There was an article written in '89 by Douglas A. Fraser, in which he recognized that the success of the Union needed to correspond with the success of the Company. He was appalled at how much health care costs were eating into the budget back then, and set a serious tone for change - one that didn't come about. The UAW needs to realize the lucrative contracts they once secured are not going to happen, and in order for the Company to continue they need to take a serious look at reality.
Old 11-12-2008, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
The U.S. leadership has been governing and thinking short term for quite some time now.

We are a reactionary government, not a proactive government.

The days of the U.S. with forward thinking government are far behind us.
I've never been so disappointed to completely agree with you before...
Old 11-13-2008, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
The U.S. leadership has been governing and thinking short term for quite some time now.

We are a reactionary government, not a proactive government.

The days of the U.S. with forward thinking government are far behind us.
With the 24hr news cycle and politicians always thinking of the next election this is somewhat inevitable.

With all the consolidation taking place in many industries we will end up with more and more companies deemed "too large to fail" and bailouts will be the norm. And companies will not have learned anything and can just take risks without regard to outcome since they'll know a bailout will come if they get into trouble.
Old 11-13-2008, 07:33 AM
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New York Times' Pulitzer prize-winning Thomas Friedman's take on the auto industry crisis. It's rather long, but a very good article. I completely, whole-heartedly agree with him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/op...in&oref=slogin
Old 11-14-2008, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
New York Times' Pulitzer prize-winning Thomas Friedman's take on the auto industry crisis. It's rather long, but a very good article. I completely, whole-heartedly agree with him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/op...in&oref=slogin
Can't really agree with him on the whole Steve Jobs taking the reigns though. He'd probably make it so that your hood is hermetically sealed and to get an oil change, you need to drop it off at the dealership and pay $200 for it.

Plus, you can't just give a hugely successful business owner the CEO position at an automaker and expect him to work magic. Unless of course he can somehow completely dissolve the UAW in the process which would probably free up a lot of money that can be put to use focusing on improving their cars. But that in turn could cause a ripple effect, workers all of a sudden having to not pay union dues BUT no longer having the benefits they once used to for so low of a price to pay = potential for lower quality work. Lose-lose situation either way but its necessary.

I do however completely agree with his plan to revamp the business and ownership structure of said companies. Still, I'm not sure if Steve Jobs is exactly the main man, but after further consideration, I'm not sure who else could single-handedly do it. The Union HAS to go though. Even technicians (mainly non-union) who I've talked to don't really see the point of the union in modern times.
Old 11-14-2008, 06:09 PM
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how badly does the UAW fuck these auto companies right now? I know its bad, but how bad?

It's a shame that these nice cars (fresh CTS, G8, new LaCrosse, Lucerne, new Cruze in 2011, Solstice/Sky, mostly all of Saturns' lineup) GM is putting out today couldnt have come out 7 or 8 years ago...
Old 11-14-2008, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by agranado
how badly does the UAW fuck these auto companies right now? I know its bad, but how bad?

It's a shame that these nice cars (fresh CTS, G8, new LaCrosse, Lucerne, new Cruze in 2011, Solstice/Sky, mostly all of Saturns' lineup) GM is putting out today couldnt have come out 7 or 8 years ago...
i'm my opinion the UAW is 70% at fault for the collapse of the american automotive sector.
For example a line worker at GM,Ford or Chrysler- gross 100 k a year
I work for Honda as a line worker- i don't gross close to 100 k a year. i mean i do okay but i'm a ways off from 100 k.
so it does 2 things
they know( GM,Ford, Chrysler) when they bring out lets say the Ford Fusion (which is a Accord fighter) they gotta pay a worker lets say 45 dollars a hour before bonus and healthcare. so they gotta make that car either more expensive than the Accord or make it cheaper( like cheaper parts or take stuff off it)
I can't disclose what i make but i think I did a paper in college an average non union worker makes with Healthcare figured in(cause we get free healthcare) it's like 45-50 an hour.
a union employee is like 75 an hour.
Old 11-15-2008, 06:28 PM
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I heard somebody once say continents shift directions faster than the ideas of the Big Three.

It has come full-circle. Here's a great idea: Every government official who is in favor of bailing out these short-sighted auto companies should be given a shiny-new Suburban, F350, Expedition, or Ram 3500 to drive around, park, maintain, fix and fuel up.
Old 11-15-2008, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by stright-(paint)balling
...it's like 45-50 an hour.
a union employee is like 75 an hour.
Yup, about the same in Canada. All in, it costs GM about $140k/year per worker and that's the reason why GM can never build a competitive car in a fair free market. Instead, they need to regularily suck money from tax payers and bribe politicians for loopholes.
Old 11-17-2008, 09:29 AM
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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...le=1&catnum=-1

Ron Gettelfinger says it's not the UAW's fault.
Old 11-17-2008, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...le=1&catnum=-1

Ron Gettelfinger says it's not the UAW's fault.
How convenient, instead of admitting even a sliver of the blame, he sheds it off to external factors which are affecting everybody. This is typical UAW behavior - concede as little as possibly, yet take as much as is needed.




I spoke with one of my auto teachers (a former union-member auto technician) and he said about 10 years ago, union dues were about $70/month for members, and in return they got medical/vision/dental/disability insurance, credit towards their 401k and representation from the union. Holy crap, good luck getting that from your job, wherever you work. Think about it.... it's not cheap for the manufacturers. And shutting down a plant for weeks at a time is not productive at all.

Seriously, look at the things that manufacturers cut corners on. Add the additional costs associated with union costs and the manufacturers are forced to cut corners on even more things which will hurt the bottom line even more. The little things matter.... and when you look at the big picture, costs associated with union contracts really do add up.

I'll agree with those who suggest to allow GM & Chrysler to go bankrupt. That way they can reorganize, free themselves of the union leash, get rid of their failing upper management and work on becoming profitable again.
Old 11-17-2008, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...le=1&catnum=-1

Ron Gettelfinger says it's not the UAW's fault.
Fawk him. They are the reason the big 3 are in trouble. These places cant sustain the high dollar amounts they are putting out for union employees.
Old 11-17-2008, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by biker
With the 24hr news cycle and politicians always thinking of the next election this is somewhat inevitable.

With all the consolidation taking place in many industries we will end up with more and more companies deemed "too large to fail" and bailouts will be the norm. And companies will not have learned anything and can just take risks without regard to outcome since they'll know a bailout will come if they get into trouble.
With bailouts the "norm" get ready for a future of unserviceable US debt.....say goodbye to your US dollar...they will be worth less than the paper they are printed on.
Old 11-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
say goodbye to your US dollar...they will be worth less than the paper they are printed on.
Wait...i thought we were well past this point already.
Old 11-17-2008, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
They are the reason the big 3 are in trouble.
Are we forgetting about the product?

The Unions are one of the reason's sure, but hardly the only reason.
Old 11-17-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
Are we forgetting about the product?

The Unions are one of the reason's sure, but hardly the only reason.
Exactly - the big 3 just redressed the truck based SUV with car based CUV and thought that would save them. And Ford living off the F series year after year just didn't get it that they need a solid sedan lineup to survive.

The number of cars sold going down is not a collapse - it's just a downturn. It's as if no one has ever experienced a downturn before in their life. You have to be like Toyota/Honda and not cry about it looking for a hand out but be ready for the up turn that will come. The news makes it sound as if GM will disappear if we don't bail them out - no they won't - they'll just sell fewer more desireable cars. The only trick for them is to make sure that they build them so they don't lose money on every one they sell.
Old 11-17-2008, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
Are we forgetting about the product?

The Unions are one of the reason's sure, but hardly the only reason.
No doubt, but the kicker here is "if" they are bailed out....the Union will continue on with their strangle-hold on the Big 3......and they will continue to be uncompetitive compared to their rivals when it comes to profit margins.

They should go into BK, and thus rid themselves of poor management and the unions.....return to market better and stronger for it....for the long haul.
Old 11-17-2008, 03:03 PM
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If the bailout does happen, I bet those money will be spent on keeping the big trucks' production lines running and the union members well fed.
Old 11-17-2008, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
Are we forgetting about the product?

The Unions are one of the reason's sure, but hardly the only reason.
But without (and proper management) they will be able to put more into their product. GM is trying and leaps and bounds ahead of where they used to be. They still sell a ton of cars, so i dont think its much of the products fault. Look at how much they loose due to how much they have to pay out to the benefit packages ect...

We have,a neighbor at our cottage early 50s, havent worked in 15 years collecting full pay and benefits/health thanks to the UAW. There are May many more like them.
Old 11-17-2008, 09:24 PM
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I think more blame has to be placed on the UAW, although the automaker is to blame for not having the foresight to realize that the UAW could work against them.

Automakers will have times where they grow complacent and their design and products suck. But when they do poorly when compared to their rivals, they have the flexibility (ie money) to be able to focus on innovation, design, and PRODUCT.

But when they are straddled with UAW costs, less money is available to focus on innovation, design, and product, and their next move could be either 1) Piss off the UAW and risk strikes and short term problems to ensure products and an image that can carry it into the long term, or 2) Piss on innovation, design, and product and go for cheap "marketing" fixes such as badge whoring or maximizing truck/SUV profits in order to push the real problems into the long term in order to benefit in the short term. Unfortunately management chose #2 and now the long term problems have presented themselves in the form of a perfect storm...high gas prices, bad economy, UAW and costs are still in the picture, and only a few examples of innovative products exist but are overshadowed by a lot of other mediocre products and stronger/more flexible competition.

But IMO, the UAW is much more to blame simply because the automakers see the problems, see the various solutions, and had to choose the best of the worst of solutions knowing they are to blame for these problems based on their lack of foresight, and therefore screaming mea culpa mea culpa, help us out. The UAW on the other hand, as demonstrated by this Middle-finger guy, has yet to even realize or admit that they have anything to do with the problem and pass all blame on to the automakers.

And this reminds me of a girl that works with me (and she's young...26 or so). She's married to a guy who's family are big UAW supporters and I think his dad was in the UAW or something. At first before they got married, she was open minded (she even drove a Honda Civic hybrid), but now she is COMPLETELY brainwashed. Sold her civic and bought a brand new Buick Enclave because she wasn't allowed to buy foreign anymore. She is totally convinced that the UAW and detroit 3 problems are not because of any bad management, but rather because of foreign automakers and their "schemes" to "steal" domestic buyers into buying foreign. She is so brainwashed that she won't even believe that NON-union plants in Mexico making cars for the detroit 3 are worse than foreign automaker producing cars in U.S. factories by U.S. workers. And you can't argue with her...she's just so brainwashed and closed minded now because of her husband that any factual, logical, and reasonable argument about how the UAW was a big contributing factor to the fall of the detroit 3 is "made up lies by the foreign automakers to make the detroit 3 look bad" and that 100% of the blame is on foreign automakers.

And this is the whole mentality of Unions. Unions frown upon competition because it goes against the whole spirit of Unions (you're union, you're younger and faster than the old guy next to you. He doesn't consider you competition because you're both union and he will always be higher than you just because of the rules!). So along comes foreign automakers with better products and more value. In their minds, foreign automakers = competition; competition = bad; therefore foreign automakers = bad.

It's simple fukked up logic in their minds to pass the blame, but that's their mentality and i wouldn't be surprised that even when the UAW is on their las dying breath, they still wouldn't be able to see they caused any problems..


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