F23A4

The Inifiniti G35 did dethrone the E46 in most comparison tests.

Road and Track

Car and Driver

Motor Trend

(And coupe-wise, the G35 is a MUCH more attractive offering than the 325Ci/330Ci....the M3 is in a different league of course.)

The caveat is that the E90 re-established its place on the throne. I just hope that "Infiniti 2.0" does not lose that chemistry.

F23A4

I was going to post a new thread but a statement with the following article lends some perspective to this discussion (mainly Honda's market view):

LINK

biker

We were talking about sales.

No argument that G35 is better and M is better than both E class and 5 series (pahteon better than 7 series) - that doesn't translate into better sales.

Honda could come up with a Legend that could beat the E class or 5 series in comparos - but if it won't translate in sales, then not much would be gained.

mrdeeno

but then again, with a "defeatist" mindset, cars would have never been invented. When Daimler had an idea for an "auto" mobile, did he say to himself, "I'm going to scrap this idea...no one will trade in their horses for this monstrosity!"?

when billy and co. got the idea for an operating system, did they say, "Everyone wants IBM, no one is going to buy our stuff!"?

When Honda introduced Acura, did they say, "With all the luxury brands already out there, we should just not even start Acura 'cuz we'll fail!"?

When they created the NSX, did they say, "There are so many more powerful supercars out there, no one will buy a 280hp V6 2 seater for $90k! Let's scrap this project!"?

what's the saying...if you don't ask the girl out, then you are already rejected...but if you ask her out, you have a chance? Same thing here...if Honda doesn't even try, then they have already failed.

again, it's great and all that the market is cycling towards fuel efficiency...but that's why they are called market "cycles"...gas prices may "seem" high now, but people will get used to it and in 5-10 years, they'll be buying gas guzzling SUVs again or high HP performance cars again.

biker

But if you know it'll cost several $B to develop something taking a chance is not that easy. Or simply, they just don't have the money to burn on such a project. Little things like investors get in the way.

The chance of a gas guzzling SUV ever coming back into style is very unlikely.

oem tsx

its called research, i hope your enjoying your low mpg because of bad aerodynamics scion death box and one day you and your family get crushed by a suv.

oem tsx

does anyone else laugh everytime you see mercedes "ask dr.z?"
he reminds me of our governator swanz

F23A4

^^^^Similar claims were made during the 1973 Oil Crisis which was a far more hostile environment (to gas consumptive V8 cars) than we now face. However, I would hope that our level of technology would result in rather efficient V8 motors; in just the same way that current V8 motors are MUCH more efficient than those of the 1970s.

mrdeeno

I think it's more likely than anyone would think.

Americans still enjoy a high level of disposable income and are making more than ever, even adjusted for inflation.

If gas prices were such a burden, then why do trucks and SUVs STILL outsell cars? If gas prices were such a burden, then sales of trucks and SUVs from all manufacturers would grind to a halt...which has not happened.

People are 'shocked' by the rise from $1.50 to $3/gal of gas, but i think only a few people who stretched their budgets so they can buy a Tahoe or Hummer or Escaled will actually be effected. Most SUV drivers will continue driving SUVs with no real effect on their budget. It's the shock effect of the rise that's putting a damper on SUV sales...but once the shock wears off and people get used to $3-4 gas, then things will change again. Maybe the next cycle will be on RWD high HP sedans or sports cars, who knows? Or maybe the next cycle will be for even MORE fuel efficient cars.

The point is that the market changes. Next time you drive down the freeway during rush hour, take a look around; It's impossible for the gas guzzling SUV and truck trend to come "back" into style if it never went out of style.

mrdeeno

oemtsxparts pulls dumb shit out of his ass...and then calls it research lololololol!!!!

chiawei

1. Have you read actual data in U.S., which is the biggest automotive market? The GS and M has done well in US. Lexus also have very good momemtum in asian market as well. The only market that Lexus hasn't really done well is european market.

Like you said, lexus is doing quiet well. Things doesn't happen overnight. You don't expect to build a great pyramid in one day.

2. Phateon died in US simply because it was branded VW. Who will pay $70k for a VW and share the dealer with a guy that just spend $20k for his beetle. It doesn't make sense. A smart buyer can go buy an Audi A8, pay nearly the same amount of money and gets treated better.

Phateon is an example of VAG's idiotic brand strategy of trying to turn VW into mercedes.

The point is here is that honda should do more to move Acura away from Honda.
So far it hasn't done that.

IMHO, honda would be better off by simply fold Acura and sell everything under honda if it has no intention to move Acura upscale.

chiawei

Again you are not making sense.

G35 was not better than E46/E90 nor is M better than E60. But they do come very close to matching BMW's dynamic.

It will take time for infiniti to rebuilt its image after tons of clunker. Look at the new M. It has increase infiniti's share in that segment. While W211 sales has been struggling.

E-class dominated this market for over 10+year. Yet it has to rely large discount to sell W211. Other than last month, W211 really has been beat up by E60. And infiniti and lexus were selling only 1k less than W211 on a monthly basis.

What does this tell you?

If you build a good product, customer will buy it. Don't come up with excuse when honda doesn't have a product to show for it.

Let me turn around and ask you this question.

Would a V-10 $100k NSX be more valuable to honda than a V8 RWD drive 4 door sedan?

How many V-10 NSX do you expect honda is going to sell a year?

Do you really think the V10 NSX would outsell a V8 RWD 4 door sedan? Not to mention that there could be a lot of thing that hondacan do with a V8. For example, how about a V8 based luxury SUV and a V8 fullsize truck.

biker

I wouldn't bet the farm on the NSX actually making it to a showroom near you. Like the Supra, rumors (or even annoucements from Honda) of an upcoming NSX doesn't mean it will actually happen.

As a halo car the NSX would do more (and has done more) than some V8 powered RWD sedan that could flop like the Phateon. The RL is a good car but people are hard pressed to pay 50K for it and it's NOT due to the drivetrain. It's a combination of the badge and looks. You need both in the 50K+ market. Acura has neither yet.

biker

Well they said they will - we'll see what that means.

mrdeeno

There's that defeatist mindset again.

this is getting off topic, but one of the major reasons the RL can't sell for $50k IS because of the drivetrain. One thing all its competitors, especially the successful ones, have in common is that they offer a V8 and RWD.

How in the world can Honda hope the RL to be anywhere near competitive to these other cars when it can't even bring the same "stuff" to the table? It's like having only a GED but applying for a position as an attorney. Then when they don't hire you, you blame them because they wanted someone with a law degree.

We're not talking about a $70k+ ultra-luxury sedan competitor...we are talking about a simple V8 which many premium AND non-premium companies have been successfully using for years.

Its a freakin' cycle of excuses...no V8/rwd because sales suck. Sales suck because image sucks. Image sucks because no V8/rwd. No V8/rwd because sales suck. Sales suck because image sucks. Image sucks because no V8/rwd....and on and on and on.

the only way that they should accept defeat and blame it on image is if they offered a TRULY kickass car with everything and MORE than the competition, and it fails to sell well. They have to rule out everything they ahve control over, such as offering better styling, bigger engines, more options, etc., before they can start blaming reasons that they don't have control over, such as image.

fsttyms1

the point comes to honda doing what works for them, and its working well. They have had nothing but record sales. Why change it. If its working dont fix it. Stay on top of technology and ideas, and do what it takes. It doesnt mean they have to jump on every bandwagon and do what every one else is doing. If they find other ways to do it and it works great. Maybe honda isnt concerned with competing with mb bmw and infinity as they are with giving the "average" car buyer the best product. Which is what they are doing and owners keep going back to. Most buyers looking at an accord arent comparing it to how well it handles against the bmw, they are comparing it to the camery, and other us market cars.

chiawei

Again, back to the original point.

Why not totally drop the Acura brand. It serve no purpose since honda is never going to move Acura upscale. Just drop it and consolidate the dealership network and sell more car.

Record sales- true. But so what? The previous camry through its life outsold Accord easily. The current camry despite delay due to V6 automatic issue, still outsold accord easily. An old Corolla also easily outsells new Civic. This is not a problem?

Let's look at this from another angle. Where would a TL buyer turn to when they want to move higher? A RL?? Obviously this is not happening since RL sales is in the tank. How about a pilot/MDX driver? If they want a bigger SUV with V8 power, where do they go? hmm. No where.

chiawei

??????

Again where do you get the badge recognition? Hmm. How about a true luxury car to compete with other luxury brand. What a novel idea!!

I don't think look is the main reason that RL is failing. Brand, lack of RWD, and lack of customization killed RL.

Stevens24

3 inches of leg room killed the RL. or lack there of.

Honda does what Honda does, I think it is funny that Nissan people complain about Honda when Infiniti has had 2 good and one average selling vehicle in 20 years. And Nissan gets killed on there side also.

phile

That's why I haven't chimed in. It's the same people with the same opinion of Honda/Acura. It's not like you can even have an open dialogue.

jwong77

Is this an Acura forum anymore? The article is about how well Honda is doing and all we get are a bunch of Nissan/Infiniti lovers in here bashing Honda.... again. Isn't Nissan the only Japanese car company to post sales drops? I bet a whole lot of excuses are on there way now.

youngTL

I personally like what Honda does. I believe that they overpriced the RL, and faltered on the 2000-2005 Civic, and the Element isn't a great vehicle IMO, but everything else of theirs is good to me. I never even thought twice about buying a Camry. For some reason, Toyotas just feel like appliances to me (Supra exempted). What about no manual trasmission with the V6 on the Camry? I'm conviced that Toyota would like to see the manual transmission die. Kudos to BMW and Honda for trying to keep it alive even in the face of lazy consumers.

That said, it would be very nice and do a lot for Honda's image if they came up with a little RWD CRX or Prelude. I know a LOT of people who would buy something like that.

fsttyms1

Y drop it if its working for them. Its serving a purpose. Some people stay brand loyal and want something a little more than an accord. Not every one wants RWD or a V8.

Ok lets look at this from another angle.
Ok someone wants to move upscale. Lets say they are in an accord, or grand prix. Upscale to them would be the TL and it is just in their price range. Lets say some one is driving an escape, or pontiac aztec. Up scale to them would be a pilot or mdx and would be the top they could spend. It isnt always about upgrading from 1 acura to a better acure. Some are finally able to upgrade TO THE ACURA. (or honda for that)

Would it be nice if they did have something with a V8??Sure. Is it necessary?? Doesnt look like it with their sales.

biker

You'd think that was the case but then how do you explain the A6? I thought for sure the RL would sell better than the A6 because of all of its issues and drivetrain but it just did not happen. Acura is copying the Audi model - no dedicated RWD platform, but offer AWD instead (never mind the lack of V8). The only issue that Acura has vis a vis the Audi model is that the Acura models are too closely related to the Honda cousins. With Audi at least they are not as closely related to VW.

mrdeeno

And the A6 isn't selling all that well in the mid-luxury segment either. And that's what kinda blows my mind...if Acura is going to emulate someone, they'd want to emulate the most successful in sales and image (in this case, that would be the E-class and 5-series). Instead, they emulate the LEAST successful in this class (Volvo and Audi). If this was a poker game, it would seem that Acura WANTED to be at the losers' table.

But getting back on topic (sort of)...

Let's say that the next market cycle IS focused on fuel efficiency...and it'll last a long time.

Americans still like SUVs, performance cars, and midsize and full size luxury sedans. According to Honda, you have to give most of that up for fuel efficiency and get a Civic hybrid or Fit or even the accord hybrid.

The next gen. LS460 (with a standard 8-speed tranny) is MORE fuel efficient then the last gen. LS430. More power, more options, heavier, but MORE fuel efficient. And then the LS460h will be even MORE fuel efficient than that. let's not forget about the GS450h, or the RX400h. Then there's the camry hybrid, highlander hybrid, then the prius. Toyota seems to have more bases covered than Honda does. Like Honda, you can get your family sedan and compact car and be fuel efficient...but unlike Honda, you can also get your SUV kicks (both premium and regular) as well as your luxury sedan kicks from toyota.

If Honda gets a one page article abuot how the "world catches up" to them, then toyota deserves the front page.

mrdeeno

well, this IS an Acura discussion forum and this thread is about Honda...it wouldn't make much sense for Nissan people or anyone else to complain about Nissan/Infiniti in a thread about Honda, would it?

AQUI NO!

Oil supplies are finite, everyone new that one day it would be on short supply and prices would rise as a result of deamnd. but no one guessed it would be a problem so soon. By honda following their mission statement they are ahead of the curve because of it.

biker

In some European countries the A6 sells better than 5 series.

Only if you believe the EPA sticker on the window - real world may prove otherwise.

mrdeeno

I have NO DOUBT that the new LS460 will be more fuel efficient than the current model based on technology. Or are you still basing everything on fuel efficiency of v8 muscle-cars from another era?

mrdeeno

Overall oil supplies may be finite, but the current rise in prices today is NOT because the earth is beginning to run out of oil. The rise in prices is because of increased worldwide demand and pumping and refining capabilities that aren't keeping up with this demand. Even if there were 20,000 years of oil supplies left, prices would still rise because they can't pump and refine fast enough.

Honda may be ahead of the curve because of their mission statement, but Toyota is way ahead also and maybe even further, and their mission statement is totally different. Again, this puts honda in a good position, but it's not unique to them.

besides, a company that chases the market successfully makes a lot more money rather than one that waits for the market to come to them. And with a lot more money, they have more research and development money for new technologies and would be in a better position to invent technologies that don't require use of fossil fuels.

anway, the stone ages didn't end 'cuz earth ran out of stone.

Bananaairsoft

The article is a bit too pro Honda to me. Dont get me wrong. I love Honda. In fact, being 32 years old, my first car was a last gen Perlude and I have a TSX right now. Honda like any car companies is here to MAKE MONEY. Unless they start to listen to what people want and try to understand the market trend. Lots of people my age and I will spend $40000 USD+ some place else for the next car. Being a little bit like Toyota, and stop fucking around with robots and air planes.

F23A4

^^statement is 100% correct!!

biker

I'm basing that on the real world numbers of the IS350 compared to sticker EPA numbers.

This is rather meanigless anyway - who cares about milage in an LS?

mrdeeno

Yes, and EPA numbers vs. EPA numbers, the new LS will be rated better than the current LS...and real world vs. real world, the new LS will most likely achieve better mileage than the current LS.

And the reason you have no idea why I brought up the LS is because you fail to see the big picture of my argument, but would rather argue "EPA vs. real world" mileage. So of course with your limited view, bring up the LS would be meaningless to you.

The reason i am bringing this up is because this is an example where toyota is more in tune with the market than Honda is. Toyota can produce compact cars, midsize cars, luxury cars, and SUVs with good mileage without sacrificing what Americans want, especially when it comes to luxury cars and SUVs.

Honda's only real fuel efficient models are its compacts and hybrids. And they only offer one midsize hybrid model, the Accord.

so in conclusion, Toyota can design cars with technology for a fuel-efficient market cycle AND appease american tastes, while Honda can only design cars for a fuel efficient market. Like I said before, if Honda deserves an article touting how they made the right moves for the market, then Toyota deserves the front page. They should add a last sentence that says, "As much as the world has caught up with Honda, Honda still has to catch up with Toyota."

kansaiwalker1

Yeah Honda!!!!!

biker

In any vehicle for vehicle (including SUVs) comparison Honda either matches or surpases Toyota (or virtually any other car maker) in terms of fuel efficiency.

And again I see how this is a bad thing.

mrdeeno

let's compare the most fuel efficient (automatics since this is the most common choice among buyers), "vehicle to vehicle" as you say...

cty/hwy

subcompact: Fit (base, auto) 31/38---------Yaris (2dr hatch, auto) 34/39 Advantage Toyota

compact: Civic Hybrid - 49/51-------Prius - 60/51 Advantage Toyota

Midsize: Accord Hybrid - 25/34-------Camry (i4...no hybrid yet) - 24/34 Advantage Honda (until the camry hybrid comes out...then it will undoubtedly be advantage camry).

Compact SUV: CR-V (FWD,auto) - 23/29-------Rav-4 (FWD,auto, i4) - 24/30 Advantage Toyota

Midsize SUV: Pilot (FWD) - 18/24-------Highlander hybrid (FWD) - 33/28 Advantage Toyota

Minivan: Odyssey - 19/25-------Sienna (FWD) - 19/26 Advantage Toyota

I'm not going to bother looking at trucks, 'cuz that's Honda advantage of course.


Compact entry premium - TSX (auto) - 22/31-------IS250 (auto) 20/29 Advantage Honda

Midsize entry premium - TL (auto) - 20/29------ES350 - 21/30 Advantage Toyota

Midsize premium - RL - 18/26-------GS450h - 25/28 Advantage Toyota

Luxury midsize SUV - MDX - 17/23--------RX400h - 25/28 Advantage Toyota



What? Did you say that Honda matches or surpasses Toyota when compared vehicle to vehicle in terms of fuel efficiency? I think you have it in reverse...Toyota matches, and in many cases, SURPASSES Honda when compared vehicle to vehicle in terms of fuel efficiency.


Research >>>>>> biker

unlemming

Wow, comparing hybrids and unique platforms to regular cars is a bit..odd. Oddy gets 20/28 btw, and most people would compare regular civic to regular corolla in which the corolla still 'wins' the mpg battle. Same for the Highlander. And RX330.

Infamous425

vishnus11

you are a complete tool that needs to satisfy some pathologicxal need to let everyone know that you think Acura sucks - whoop ti do man - we get it....

Subcompact: Real world figures of the Yaris and Fit put the fit slightly ahead in some comparos and the Yaris slightly ahead in others.

Compact: We all know that real world figures of the Prius are MUCH MUCH lower than the EPA figures, so stop trying to mislead everyone. Not to mention that the Prius can't handle worth two shits.

Compact SUV: next gen CR-V is around the corner. Stop trying to BS everyone with figures from the previous gen CR-V against the new for 06 RAV-4

Midsize SUV: Way to go buddy, good research. Oh, wait, I'm still looking for the freakin 7k thats missing from my bank account - the Pilot costs 7k less than the hybrid Highlander. This BS from you is getting old

Minivan: Neglected to include figures for the top of the line Ody know did we? I'm sure it was an honest oversight 20/28

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...=Odyssey&Num=0

Above link will tell that the EPA rated the Ody as the MOST FUEL EFFICIENT MINIVAN

Midsize Premium - Again, BS BS BS.... the Gs450h costs a shitload more than the RL...you and I both know that.

Luxury Midsize SUV - funny thing really, I'm still trying to search for the third row of seats in the RX400h. Not to mention that it costs a solid $10k more.

Biker (has facts) + Vishnus11 (assist ) > Deeno (BS)