gilboman

I'm not trying to start a flame war here but i've seen lots of enthusiasm for a car that i dont see anything to be enthuastic about.. this is what the new TL seems to me

OLD TL-S +10hp (or accord V6 +30hp..old accord vs old tl was 60hp difference)
new interior
carry over brakes
FWD, magizine impressions so far is good for FWD...not near G35, 3 series, C class handling or braking
mid to high 6 sec 0-60 (330,G35 are 5.6 and 5.9)
auto from accord
nice stereo
higher price

accsuperstar

well its the next big thing for acura. also alot of potential tsx buyers are turned away from the fact that they think the car is underpowered, etc. some people are willing to pay more for a slightly bigger, more luxurious, and better powered car.

IMO its a VERY nice car, but i think im too young to be driving a TL. if im older i would want a 5 series

gilboman

i guess it is a nice alternative for people who want some power or need an auto to get a TL instead of TSX..but with a move up in price and no change in formula or execution to the old TL-S, i am somewhat dissapointed..... like the TSX..i guess its an alternative for people in the HONDA/Acura camp but not for those in BMW,Audi,MB camp.

larchmont

Seriously gilbo, I don't remember -- Have you tried the car?

gilboman

nope...i'll wait for my friend who works at acura to let me try it. but i've read about it in a few of the major car mags..and the aint no 3 series or no G35 comments turned me off on that thing and the carry over brakes as well just killed it for me...the old TL had mediocore brakes already...if they didnt raise the price i would probably think more highly of it..

larchmont

Well, well, well.

Well, well, well.

WELL, WELL, WELL!


Don't you think you should try the car before starting a thread like this?

gilboman

no..just like i dont need to test drive a kia to know its performance is not upto par:P ...FWD car...mags all say no 3 series and wont challenge G35...carry over mediocore brakes... no need to. unless they give those 50 dollar coupons for test driving..then yes i'll go.

but hey... the car mags may be wrong and the Tl will run circles around 3 series and have lexus like interior

1SICKLEX

Actually, no one is excited. I am even surprised at the luke-warm response it has gotten at TL.com. At Clublexus, no one has brought it up in a thread, nor most all other car forums.

In comparison when the G35 came out, there was a lil more hoopla in the auto communities. Even the last gen. TL-S had more hoopla in comparison.

Acuras remain cars mainly the Honda faithful move up too. They are the only ones that get a lil excited.

tsx-mdxman

There is some truth to what you are saying here, especially the part about Acura being a brand particularly popular with Honda mover-uppers. I would say the new TL appears way more revolutionary than it is evolutionary though. I think it is a big improvement over the previous one. It's a luxury tourer that's reasonably quick and I'm certain it will be a fine handler. Let's wait until the auto mags, etc, do some comparisons. Since the TSX has been compared favorably to the G35 already, mainly from a performance-for-the-dollar standpoint, shouldn't we expect the same or better for the TL? After all, we are talking ballpark $35K or so out the door for a very nicely equipped car with a 270 HP V6 and lots of goodies, including a super Nav system. And that's just upon introduction, there is still lots of room for further developments and enhancements. What are the exterior/interior dimensions in comparison for G35/TL, for example? I would guess (I could be wrong) the TL is bigger inside. And the TL interior (really an enhanced TSX interior, judging by the pictures) absolutely trumps the G35 one. By the way, G35's are currently being discounted at dealers, maybe it's 15 minutes are already up...please don't take this as inflamatory, all the cars within this broad competitive category have their plusses and minuses.
________________________________
04 TSX CG AT/NAV
03 MDX SSM TOURING/NAV/RES

7or8

I agree with a lot of what your saying Gilbo...but there are many sides to the debate..

Some people care only about a car's performance (power, handling, etc..)

Some people care only about a cars comfort & style (interior & exterior looks)

Some people want a little of both. Some people want all of both.

For intance, I'm sure the new BMW 5 series will kick major butt in the handling department...but I really dislike the new interior they've conjured up...I'd run away from it on that basis alone. I won't take performance if It means having to accept looking at an interior that puts me to sleep...
5 series Permformance = Exhilaration (i assume)
Interior looks = Put me to sleep
They cancel each other out.

Point is...what one person hates about a car may be what another person loves. Personally the TSX fits me as far as everything I value and want in a car, for the price I want to pay. I have the money for a TL put I'm still getting the TSX. I have the money for a 3 series...but the new interior is a total turnoff to me...I'm still getting the TSX.

Junkster

I think the excitement of the TL has to do with the general direction in which the Acura line is being carried. With the introduction of the TSX, which is mostly a carry-over model from the euro/japan market, Acura wasn't changing anything from the point of indicating the direction in which the company was taking it's line. The TL solidifies the design and overall mission of the Acura line, which is to be a value-priced, well mannered, dependable luxury brand. I've heard that Acura sees Audi as it's main rival in terms of image and styling (not performance, unfortunetly). The TL is probably overrated at this point, with all the new-car hype. Let's let it down down a notch and see how the responce is. After all, the last TL wasn't as hyped in it's introduction, but aged fairly well, and was considered a value leader in the mid-luxury market, with a reputation of being very dependable (unlike it's european counterparts).

Junkster, who thought the previous TL was a nice car.

clintoronto

I would like to think that the 2nd generation was one of the biggest automotive miracles in the last decade. Remember the 1st gen TL? No one wanted it and it only lasted for 3 years. Then they redesigned it and till now the 2nd gen TL was selling like hot cakes and is still receiving highly positive reviews and awards. With all the improvements that they are making to create the 3rd gen, I am pretty sure it will be an exciting car. I am anxiously waiting for the test drive. I have owned a number of recent Acura models. Even now that I am driving the TSX, which I believe is the most balanced car Acura now has, I still get out with a smile after driving a 2nd gen TL.

gilboman

I think the old TL-S was a very good value as well, although i've known a lot of people with them who complain about build quality after a year and the quality in materials issue and trade in for lexus and BMW (they werent honda fans b4 though, they thought iwas a good value but found you u get what you paid for)..but overall it was a very good bang for the buck..but the new TL is basically the same one as the old one, nicer interior, 10 more hp and that is it..yet they jack up the price to same price as the G35 here in canada, and it'll probably have a nicer interior but lesser performance... it's no longer as good a value as before and it's almost on same price level as the superior germans.

justinjsw

You are truly amazing. So blinded by your love for the RWD BMW that you think the only thing people care about are handling and RWD. You are driving an overpriced, underpowered and under optioned piece of german crap. Couldn't even afford to step up to a real 3 series. Please.

larchmont

Nice stuff here.

Even though I kicked Gilbo's butt a little for doing this thread, I do think he has some good points.

And I agree with Sicklex that's it not clear whether many people are really excited. Gilb, maybe all you mean is that this board is excited. And of course we're excited. We're here because we were interested in the TSX, and a lot of us loved that early process of finding out bit by bit about the TSX and then seeing it all come together, and then we had a chance to do the same thing about the new TL -- which, to boot, is a car that's similar to the TSX, so not only was it a similar process for us, it's a car right up our alley.

So of course we're going to be excited. But people in general? I don't think we know if they are; I sure don't see any signs that they are. What I see is that people seem about as interested as they usually are in any re-design that has some promise.

gilboman

um how is a 330xi not a real 3 series?? ...fyi an underpowered 330i sport goes 0-60 in 5.6 sec..you are lucky if the new TL can make it in 6.6sec (the old health ponys vs sick ponys debate . ).. you forgot i care about braking, steering feedback/road feel and confidence driving it.

Junkster

Exactly what you have stated. The last generation TL was a hit because it was so value conscious. Other Japanese automakers have this same recipe for success, and I think that Acura is trying to move outside of this type of sales tactics. And that's where they are screwing up.

For long time Acura fans, you know what I mean. Back when Acura was first created, they had the Japanese luxury market almost to itself. They had the Legend, which was a great flagship car and a price bargain compared to it's european counterparts, and was a quality car overall. Lexus and Infiniti were still fledglings in this market and could not create the kind of image that Acura had.

But starting in the mid-90's, there was a change in tactics from the larger automakers Toyota and Nissan. They decided to take their luxury divisions upmarket, while keeping their prices relatively cheaper then the euros, and still offering extremely reliable cars (ask Merc owners or BMW owners who've had lemons, they will tell you how bad these cars can be). But the biggest change in the Lexus camp was that they would offer the equivalent of the european cars in their lineup, i.e. rear wheel drive and V8. Infiniti missed out on this key change and fell behind miserably (but they are making strides now).

Acura, on the other hand, stuck to their original formula and did not gamble on a big change. And slowly their sales started to slide. Today, they really don't have a strong foothold on the entry luxury market. I remember back in 95 or 96, that sales of Acuras were not changing in the amount of cars from year to year, which is good news. The bad news was that if you took away the sales of the Integra, the company sales were down almost 15%.

So, I think that Acura has finally decided to change their tactic a little bit and maybe try and move upmarket a bit. To be honest, you can't compare the TSX to the last gen Integra, they are totally different cars with different missions. The TL, therefore, can't be the value leader anymore, but rather the mid-range flagship of the badge.

What I'm thinking is that Acura probably has another sedan up it's sleeves with another sedan that might be higher then the RL or above the TL, with the RL moving higher up the market. I think there is no way that Acura can do battle with the other with just three sedans in their lineup.

Okay, I better quit now before people start posting about how long my posts are...

Junkster, who would love a RWD Acura sedan...

gilboman

yup i guess so..but its just that people are saying this will be the car to put Acura on the map, rejuvinate the brand etc.... and i was mystified by it... its the same formula and execution as the old one...

justinjsw

Yada yada yada...I said YOU couldn't step up to a real 3 series not how fast a 330I can go. Is that all there is to a car?...how fast it can go? what is the 1/4 mile? Come on please...we live in the real world of rush hr traffic, family with kids...not on the tracks of the motor speed ways.

You don't like the FWD layout of the Hondas don't buy it. But after a yr of listerning to your BS about how bad and backwards Honda is...you are really starting to sound like a broken record.

gilboman

you should've worked for Honda instead, you are preaching what would appeal more to people wanting to buy an odyssey or accord instead of a luxury car... I HAVE A 330XI, how is that not a real 3 series??? its the same price as a 330ci. and after a year about hearing how FWD V6 or FWD I4 reused from corportate parts bin is the formula for successful luxury car maker , do they brainwash you before hiring you? i didnt say i dislike FWD of Honda..but i dislike Acura not trying to make RWD or AWD, what real luxury cars should have as a minimum...and a real luxury car is needed for a luxury brand....
Honda is a mass market car maker and focused on value, so the economical FWD format works great for it... luxury, value is not most important, performance, quality, brand value is more important.... and insisting on economical FWD layout for luxury cars is self defeating if Acura wants to be taken seriously

justinjsw

You have a 330XI? That is truly interesting...why is it that on clubtsx you told everybody you bought a 325xi. So which is it that you have? Should I point you back to that thread.

Yeah im blind Gilbo.

larchmont

Yeah, I thought it sounded like you meant Gilbo got a 325 rather than a 330, and I didn't understand it because he did say on here that he got the 330, and we had a little discussion on it.

As I remember it, he was thinking mainly of a 325 but wound up getting the 330.

larchmont

.....and that's where you're wrong.

dom

Maybe in your eyes Gilbo. When was it decided that a a luxury car must be RWD to be taken seriously? I think I missed that memo. Who made this determination? You? The boys at Car and Driver ?
I think someone's been brainwashed here, but it ai'nt anyone here who drives a TSX or sells em. Its the guy driving the 3 series because he thought he had no other choice in the matter. Do you go to the church of BMW on Sunday's to get this stuff Gilbo?

Last I remember Gilbo was lauding the praises of his mom's new FWD "Luxury" Sedan the ES300. Care to change your tune on that Gilbo?

clintoronto

I think I saw the official figures for 6 spd 2004 TL from Acura Canada is 0-100km/h (approximately the same as 0-60mph) is 6.3s

Lorne Miller

...this gets very tiresome, why do all the "bimmer" freaks always feel it neccessary to come over here and piss on everyone that likes FWD and Honda products, I've had RWD and FWD, done lots of European cars with both, done the BMW thing, after a lot of time driving both I actually prefer FWD, and my German cars all had MUCH more trouble and gave me a LOT more grief than any of my cars of Japanese heritage, and I've had FWD and RWD versions from there as well, so Gilbo, give up on this tiresome rag of a rant and go somewhere where there's someone who cares. We all know how you feel about Acura/Honda by now, so go annoy someone else in another forum...

Lorne Miller

1SICKLEX

THey only make 330xis I thought, not 325xis. I agree with Junksta too.
I don't think it's that early to tell. When the G35 or IS came out, they were on car covers left and right and had a lot of press before 10 car comparisons (which they faired well in). I have yet to see much other than a small article on the TL.

Acura management still does not get it. The TL-P won a entry level luxo car comparison (2nd was 300M, 3rd ES 300) in Car and Driver cause they were not wanting or expecting a sports sedan. THey loved the features and LOVED the price, like 28k.

The TL-S placed 6th in the sports sedan comparo cause they want and expect it and the car did not really deliver.

I think if Acura actually tried to more luxury instead of sporty, they would have a better chance of hitting the mark. Why?

The ES 300/330, TL, I35 has proven people will buy in droves FWD luxo sedans. Why? No one cares, they want a great interior, plush ride, space, value and sport is last on the list. You can do that with FWD cars since they won't be pushed. Lexus realized this and said FOCK IT and made the ES totally luxury and brought the IS to challenge the Germans.

Maybe Acura can stretch the S2000 RWD chassis ALA the 350Z.

justinjsw

Mr Gilbo is from Canada and in Canada there is a 325Xi.

SSN_FT1(SS/DV)

There are 325xi's in the US too...325i, 325ci, 325xi, 330i, 330xi, 330ci.

"i" = 4DR/RWD
"ci" = 2DR/RWD
"xi" = 4DR/AWD

Just in case anyone was confused.

Oh ya almost forgot....TSX=Kick Ass!!!

Gpump

I know very little on the subject but here's my .02 - Luxury cars do not have to be rwd - sports cars yes, I can see that argument. I don't really care for the new TL styling - the old one was fine by me. All a luxury car needs is great ergonomics, attractive interior/exterior, solid feel, and enough power to make you feel like you could go faster if you wanted. Dragster is not one of the criteria. Acura will probably do fine with the new car - I question them jacking up the price, but maybe their r&d guys know something I don't. In my eyes Acura has always been the bargain upscale brand - comparatively speaking I think we do get more bang for the buck (funny how that didn't carry over to the NSX though). Acura will probably never have the best 0-60, skid pad number or 1/4 mile - they are not engineering these cars for that purpose. In fact, I bet the only reason they upped the HP was so they could say something about engine improvements in their commercials. Who the hell drag races in a TL?
I've never owned a german car, but from the G35 boards I used to frequent everyone who HAD a BMW said make sure you don't own one out of warranty - that ought to tell you something about "German engineering".

If Acura comes out with a RWD 350Z type version of the TSX I am gonna be majorly pissed.

provench

Gilb - if you are gonna start something like this ... at least do it in the right forum where our TL contingent can wear you out a bit

I don't know what the big deal is either ... it is an overpriced Honda, overweight, torque steering, FWD understeering, Pontiac emblem wearing, funky groove on the side having Lexus wanna be.

KIDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDING !

Ok ... back to your regularly scheduled, gilbo-flamo-matic thread

iNteGraz92

because all those people care about is the BADGE and the 35k+ the cars cost (loaded of course, cuz i don't give a crap if u can get them for less, they come with shit for options :P )

BradW

The 3 series is a nice handling car....but WAY over priced. And yes I have owned one. Infact I've had two BMWs, a 325 and a 528. Both of which are fine automobiles but not worth their price.

I recently got to take the new Acura TL, a 330, a G35 and an ES300 on the track in Atlanta. The G35 is lacking compared to the TL, I'm not positive how it comes out on paper but its no TL. Just didn't feel as sharp and the torque, while intially strong seemed to die very quickly. The 330 definitly handled the best of the bunch but didn't feel as quick as the TL. I'd say the 330 was the best car of the group from a performance perspective but the price has to be considered. As for the Lexus...I recommended it to my grandmother.

All of that is from a performance point of view. If you compare technologies the TL is the champ. First car with DVD auto, XM standard and bluetooth, just to name the major enhancements. The BMW has all the basics covered but thats it. The G35 seems like its trying to hide the fact its a nissan. The Lexus has a bunch of comfort creatures but nothing beyond the ordinary.

I was about to buy my third BMW before driving the new TL. (yes I do sell acura's but I am a BMW lover, or atleast I was)

my 2 cents

larchmont

lol

That was sort of my impression too when I tried it last year. Except that I wouldn't recommend it to anybody at all.

Correction -- I'd recommend it to someone who wanted a Rolls but was a little down on his luck.

princed

I think that a lot of the discrepancy between the "I like the new TL" camp and the "What's the big deal?" camp lies in expectations. We all knew little about this car a few months ago and so before the release, expectations were high (AWD, 3.4/3.5L, 285hp, etc.). Many people began to feel that this was going to be a car that would topple the 5 series for thousands of dollars less. Then, when Acura mentioned that the 5 series was used as a benchmark for the new TL's performance, expectations were again raised.

This car will not dethrone the RWD performance icons, and to be honest, I don't think Acura intented it to. The TL is $33,000. That's it. It is over $3,500 cheaper than a similarly configured 325i ($4500 cheaper if you get an automatic on the 325), and it is $8500 less than the 330i ($9500 w/ auto). The only entry-lux cars in the ballpark are the ES330 (still $2000k more w/o the Levinson audio), the FWD A4 3.0 ($2500 more), and the G35 (only about $1000 more). There are a whole lot of people who like the ES330's quiet ride and luxurious interior but bemoan its lack of handling and awkward exterior styling (I'm being nice by using the word awkward, hehe). Similarly, the G35 is a blast to drive, but some feel the interior is lacking as is ride quality/noise. The new TL is able to slide right into the middle of these two highly successful cars and offer a great deal of the ES330's luxury with a healthy dose of the G35's performance, all in a vehicle with very attractive interior and exterior styling (subjective, of course). The Audi is there in the middle too, but with a more modest engine, a CVT that you either love or hate, and less "technology." By taking this route, Acura is indeed taking a gamble. People who crave performance and are willing to sacrifice some luxury will still pick the G35, while those who would wrinkle their foreheads in bewilderment if they heard anything about heel-toe downshifts or accelerating out of a corner will still chose the ES330. The only other option for people who want a true luxury/sport sedan with a large amount of both is to pony up the extra $$$ and get a BMW/Mercedes.

I'm one of those people who is firmly in the luxury sport category, and I want both qualities in my vehicle. As this is my first car, and I am only in the first 3-months of my career, I have a budget. I have a list of priorities and the TL was by far the best fit within my price range. The BMW was too expensive and I hate the idea of buying a car at the end of a product cycle, the Audi has a decent engine, but it doesn't compare to the G35/TL's power, and has a horrible nav, and the G35's interior styling didn't fit my needs. Enter the TL...

And one final things about those 0-60 numbers. The 5.6 was C&D's number for the 330i w/ performance package ($12,000k more than the TL) and the 5.9s was their number for the G35 6MT. C&D is estimating a 6.0 for the stock TL 6MT (I personally think it'll be lower since the larger, lower power/weight ratio Accord coupe w/ thinner tires got a 5.9). That puts all three cars in the same ballpark (acceleration wise, at least)...

Jason

This thread is ridiculous. We have a guy bashing a car he has never driven and saying it gets out-performed by every other car in it's category, yet it's never been fully tested. He claims a time of mid to high sixes, yet Honda has conservatively stated 6.0 seconds. That means 0-60 in 5.8 seconds.

Then we have a guy who says the TL hasn't generated any excitement. I disagree. My dealer in Chicago is relatively small for a major-market Acura dealer, yet he sold 22 cars the first weekend. This is with little to no marketing support from Acura. I have seen some print ads in car mags and the Wall Street Journal, and the ads look great. When the TV spots drop, look out. BTW, he is 90 days out on TSXs. They're ALL SOLD.

No excitement on the Lexus boards? No excitement on acura-tl? If not they're asleep at the switch. Look at the response on this site. It's been huge.

I can't wait to see the gentleman troll's response.

larchmont

They've started, Jase. I've seen one TL commercial about three times in the last couple of days. Can't tell you too much about it, though, because I was doing some stupid posting on here every time and I didn't really notice until the commercial was almost over. Short commercial, probably 10 or 15 seconds, not too many words, mentions the 270 hp, shows the car cruising along on one of those scenic drives.

Yeah, this is a stupid thread, but I try to be a little bit kind anyway.

Jason

I try not to be a jerk but it's too hard to keep quiet on some threads. I still don't understand why people come to this site to bash Acura, Honda, TSX, or TL. Don't they have better things to do with their time?

Davediego

guys the official launch was only on monday, the damn car hasnt been out long enough for a full review. im sure several are coming in the next round of magazines

gilbo i dont know where you pulled this 6.6 figure from (your ass perhaps?) but the old TL-S did it in 6.2, you dont add 10hp, 6ft*lbs, and rework the gear ratios only to lose 0.4 seconds. the CL-S 6speed keeps up with a 330ci according to your beloved C&D, the TL with a 6speed should have no difficulty doing the same, and id bet itll handle quite a bit better than the old CL-S

Davediego

OH, and if RWD is so crucial to performance, please explain how real time racings RSX is able to do so well, it beats out BMW's all the time. the mazda6 does quite well also. its the overall platform of the car you have to consider.