Moog-Type-S

http://www.leftlanenews.com/strategi...tml#more-22901

Props to Volkswagen and Ford

VTEC Racer

How did they calculate quality from those "clear statements"? Seems like a joke.

dtc5

^ I agree. I’m not exactly sure how they came up with the “Total Quality award based on those fields. The award should be renamed to "Consumer perceived expectation award".

Whatever how they came up with the award winners it’s good to see VW momentum seem to be building in the US. Coming from a VW passat, I thought it car was great car and did not have a single issue while it was under my care. It performed much better than CR would rate it. Never driven a Ford before so can’t say much but I’m sure their quality probably stepped up too.

dom

"Consumer perceived expectation award"

That's the only way the Odyssey could make the list because in reality, its a POS.

LuvMyTSX

Really? What do you not like about yours? People rave about them so I thought they were pretty good.

Moog-Type-S

I thought you could keep this one all inside.

Gotta hand it to you....you pull no punches.

Sux that Honda has still not figured out how to build a reliable Automatic Transmission.

dom

Juttery transmission which only got WORSE after a Honda software update to fix it which means the torque converter likely needs replacement. And its not an isolated issue.

I've also had the power steering fluid reservoir replaced, followed by the power steering pump.

It eats brakes and tires and the power doors don't like to open when I'm reversed into my driveway which has a very slight incline. (Forgot to mention that to you Moog)

Other than that its great. Can't wait to see what the next 2 years of Ody ownership gets me

Yumcha

Wow. Never knew the Odyssey was so bad.

VTEC Racer

JD Power's gives the Ody 5/5 starts which is classified as "among the best". Makes me wonder how bad the other vans are if the Ody gets a 5/5 while still having as many problems as Dom does. Just for comparison, they give the Routan a 2/5.

pimpin-tl

I know several people who have Odysseys and have no issues at all with them.

sr4dt

WoW. Sounds like you got a bad one Dom. We have had ours for over 4yrs now and looking back wouldn't have had it any other way. I am on my Original Brake pads @55K and 1st set of tires lasted little above 38K miles, which is about expected life for the OE Michelins. @17K miles the replacements seems to have a lot of life left. I have had it on inclined driveway and never had the powerdoor issue you mentioned, may be your power door motor is failing.

And as for the Power steering reservoir & Pump, wasn't there a TSB which covered those issues. I do not think mine has been changed though.

dom

Makes me wonder. I can tell you I never filled out a survey.

Although the TC issues are only now beginning to appear. But powers steering issues on 07's at least are widespread.

Co-Worker's 06 EX-L is currently in the shop getting a rear motor mount replaced. Another common problem.

dom

Dealer says power doors motors are fine. So until it fails, nothing I can do.

Honda went to a revised tranny on 07+ Ody's. same 4 shaft as the one on the Pliot and Ridgeline. Its these that are apparently problematic.

And yes, there was a TSB on the PS pump and reservoir just like there's a TSB for the trannny juttering and TC. But releasing a TSB doesn't mean the problem wasn't there to begin with. A problem is a problem. Whether its recognized or not.

Moog-Type-S

My doors auto-doors open and close fine on my driveway incline.

'06 Oddy FTW!!!......and yea, it's a Honda...so front brakes SUCK!!!!!!!!

dom....you are scaring me agin.....don't jinx my oddy again too

sr4dt

I thought releasing a TSB meant that a problem was recognized and the Techs were advised about . Although TSB may or may not offer the proper solution for it. If I were to be have had those many problems with the Ody, it sure would have soured my experience.

With the Ody "with all those gripes" getting the award probably means that the other Minivans may be having so much more issues.

dom

I'm not suggesting they didn't recognize the problem. They did. I'm just saying it was a problem I had to deal with nonetheless. I'm hoping for the best. We'll see where the TC issues go from here but I'm not liking what I'm reading over at odyclub.com. A couple of so-called Honda techs are claiming the TC problems runs deep.

Another co-worker with an 06 hasn't had 1 problem. Rock solid.

LuvMyTSX

Wow

Seems hit and miss, and unfortunately Dom got one with bugs. I agree though, if the Ody is having these issues and got top ratings, it makes me wonder what the other vans are like. Yikes.

So the Pilot also has the tranny issues?

dom

When it comes to cars, I'm not a believer in 'got a bad one'. If one has a problem chances are many others have the exact same problem due to that faulty part. We see it time and time again.

I haven't looked into the Pilot and Ridgeline. But going by what I've read on forums, they're complaining of a similar issue.

stangg172004

two of my favorite brands!

cp3117

Thats very interesting Dom.

Last month while driving to Edmonton in one of our fleet vehicles (08 Odyssey) I noticed the tranny was slipping and while in town it always seems to have hard or "clunky" up and downshifts.

I couldnt believe that something this new with low mileage would be having these issues already.

The brakes have already been replaced and its only 2 years old. This though is no surprise to me as this is typical of any Honda product IMO. I dont know if its just poor brake design or just poor quality brake pads but boy do they go through pads.

Overall though i like the Odyssey as when its running properly it drives nice and has lots of room inside. This could be because i dont own it though and its a company vehicle. I would probably have a different tune if I was making the monthly payments like yourself.

cp3117

I think the same can be said for Canada too.

I bought my first VW in 2006 and it has been no better or worse than any other Toyota or Honda product I have ever owned. It has been a great car and im even buying out the lease next week as its been that good and its worth more than what the buyout is.

It performed like yours, in that it performed way better than what CR rated the car. I almost didnt buy it because of CR's rating but what was interesting was the consumer reviews at CR gave it great reviews while CR slammed it like they do most VW's.

About 2 years after my purchase I cancelled my subscription to CR and I dont put much faith anymore in any of those companies like CR, JD Power etc when it comes to vehicle purchases...

F23A4

I was never aware that the 3G Ody was particularly problematic.

Infamous425

good ol' honda tranny and brakes. gotta love it.

F23A4

Yes, brakes are a given with Hondas. Both my 99 and 07 Accords had some brake issues and I hope (somehow) that our 09 MDX never does. Trannywise, my 99 spent one by 37k but the 07 did not have any issues througout our 36,255 miles of use.

dom

Its official, needs a torque converter. But Honda decided to throw in alittle extra surprise, late X-Mas present? By giving me 2 new rear wheel bearings as well.

A loud droning sound coming from the rear just started a couple of months ago but I've read nothing about rear wheel bearings so that caught me by surprise.

Honda quality? LOL.

BTW - The TC is on back order because they're changing so many. Dealer knew the problem as soon as I began explaining it.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

You shouldn't think of brakes in terms of years because everyone drives a different amount of km. and even then that's not much of a barometer because highway/city mix will dictate totally different mileage vs wear. A taxi driver might only get 10,000km out of brakes while you easily pull out 50,000km. but ya honda typically has shitty life on brakes.

The Dougler

iTrader: (1)

Warranty on the TC?

dom

Yes, warranty on both. 51k km's or 32k miles.

Belzebutt

I can confirm that as well, my Accord went through the front and rear brakes very quickly. My wife said it was because of my driving, now I can point to this thread and say "ah hah!"

majin ssj eric

All of these supposed quality awards are BS in my opinion. THey always tend to be the hottest selling cars of the moment that win anyway. Ford and VW are on a roll sales-wise and that is simply showing up here....

charliemike

There might be a correlation there ... Just sayin'

majin ssj eric

^^^Lol, I suppose.

Still, just because something sells well doesn't mean it has good quality (look at Ikea).

furbean777

Lol ~

Legend2TL

Early brake wear on modern Honda's (~2000-current) is a myth. I entirely agree that brake life is highly dependent on driving style and conditions. Here are couple pictures of 2003 Pilot's front brakes and pads that were replaced at 107K miles. My 2005 TL 6MT with the Brembo's are still on the original pads at 53K miles, but they'll need replacement very soon. The only issue with Honda brakes I've seen in the last decade is a consistent problem with the tuning fork wear sensors braking off (happened on the front AND rear brakes on the Pilot look at top left pad you can see it broken off).

I maintain currently 5 modern Honda/Acura's, none have gone through their front pads in under 50K miles. I also help out some neighbors and friends with their Honda's, none of the have had any brake issues or early wear including a few 3G Odyssey's (one of which does occasional towing duty with no brakes on the trailer).

Older Honda/Acura's 9up to late 90's) definitely had brake wrapping issues but I never seen/heard of any early pad wear going back to 1970's Accords/Civics.

cp3117

I totally agree. I use years as a general term because i know my driving style and roughly how long a set of brakes will normally last in a average vehicle that I drive. Size, weight, style, etc etc obviously all have a major factor. My 67 Camaro has front and rear drums and I have changed the shoes once in 23years obviously because its not driven much or very hard when i do drive it.

You have obviously had a very good experience with Honda brakes but that is a very bold statement saying that its a myth and is unfortunately very false.

If you do a quick search on the internet you will see page after page of complaints on premature wear on Honda breaks (generally the rear pads and not the front). Here is one example of many class action law suits against Honda for the 2008 Accord.

http://www.lemonlawclaims.com/Honda%...%20Problem.htm

There are many different theories about why this is. A few Honda/Acura technicians that I spoke to think its a combination of poor quality brake pads and unnecessary/excessive use of Honda's electronic stability control. Unfortunately its going to take more of these lawsuits before Honda may finally do anything. On the other hand its a great money maker for Honda as this is obviously not a warranty claim.

Legend2TL

Premature Honda brake wear on modern Honda's is a myth, plain and simple. Consumer Reports used to have plenty of full and half black circles on brakes for Honda's/Acura in the 80's and 90's in their used car reliability guidelines. Consumer Reports although not perfect do a very respectable job of analysis of their user data. They write up the collection and analysis process and it's well documented in the guides.

Last time I looked at a Consumers Reports Used Car guides, Honda's and Acura's had decent brake reliability. Also your theories are incorrect also, Mercedes Benz conducted a brake wear study not too long ago and the vast majority of brake wear is slowing/stopping the vehicle. Honda's and Acura's had small rotors in the 70's/80's/90's. The brake quality is also incorrect, most of Honda's brakes are made by Nissin and they have a reputation for quality on par with Girling/ATE/Brembo. Mostly Honda/Acura addressed the odler brake wear problems with larger rotors over time, I have over 30 years experience on working on Honda's/Acura's of my own, my family, and friends/neighbors.

The last set of problems that were systematic for Honda brakes that I know of were the rear drums on the 2G Odyssey. That lemmon law law website I don't know how those driver drove but to quote Dr. Ferry Porsche, "They just don't know how to drive properly" (that was the quote for earlyPorsche 928 owners who went through clutches in 10K miles).

cp3117

Those theories where actually from Honda/Acura mechanics but I personally would lean more towards poor quality brake pads used by Honda. That study from MB would be interesting but where else would they think the majority of break wear would come from?

Nissin is definitely a world class tier 1 parts supplier but it still doesnt mean that they wouldn't produce and sell lesser quality pads to a company like Honda if they ask for it thinking that it would perform the same while keeping costs down. Nissin will produce what the purchaser generally wants but its still Honda's responsibility to know if it will work properly for their application unless the supplier didnt follow their specifications. This wouldnt be the first time i have seen this working on all different brands over the last 30 years and doing complete restorations on classic cars in my spare time.

There are thousand and THOUSANDS of people on and outside of forum's on the internet complaining about Honda brake wear issues. Even major automotive publications that do long term tests have issues.

http://www.insideline.com/honda/acco...d-ex-l-v6.html

http://motortrend.automotive.com/115...ict/index.html

These and other long term tests seem to show that at the magical 15k mark rear brakes seem to be the issue.

I could see your point if the people complaining where first time car purchasers when it comes to driving habits but many (if not all) are people who have owned many different vehicles over their lifetime and just now when buying a Honda product they are having these problems.

We can see why Honda wants to blame the driver rather than address the problem at hand but when you look at all the facts and the complaints, class action lawsuits etc. Almost anyone can clearly see that this isnt a Myth and that its a problem, plain and simple.

dom

Its a myth

Moog-Type-S

All you AZ members who have been complaining about your Honda/Acura tastic brakes for all these years: SHUT YER HOLES!!!!!

IT'S A MYTH!!!!!!!

If I would have known this during all my ownership of all my previous Honda/Acura vehicles, I could have told the service manager "IT'S A MYTH" when my front brakes were shot and they needed to be replaced.

Legend2TL

Wasn't aware of the rear brake wear on the newest Accords. Inside Line also had problems with their Civic GX front brakes.

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtest...l-economy.html

Edmunds editors are pretty decent at keeping logs on their driving habits and vehicle use. So that and Motor Trend to me point to a systematic problem with at least the 8G Accord. Why the rears.....hmmmm, since the fronts are doing ~2/3 of the braking I'm guessing poor pad material composition (too soft?) or dragging brakes due to the piston not retacting slightly when the brake pressure is released (due to ALOT of potential reasons including coatings on the piston, caliper guide pins too much friction,...).

I actually forgot I once had a dragging brake problem on my 86 Prelude Si, turned out to be a complicated problem. Rust had formed on the piston bore (between the piston seal and caliper body) causing the piston to not retract so it wore down the pads early. But 15K for pads is extremely early for a family sean so I agree there's a problem with 8G Accord.

Reminds me to look at CR guide to see how it rates in the long term reliability reports. Last time I looked was a year ago and only remember seeing full black marks on Honda's and Acura's transmissions (~99-03). I don't remember any brake problems. Overall I trust CR over the internet since they provide a process for collecting the data, determining rankings for problems of the data collected. So I'll look at the brakes for all Honda/Acura's next time I see a issue.

I did look at other Honda/Acura's on Edmunds long term tests unfortuantely they only keep the vehicles for ~20K miles miles and no other Honda/Acura's had early brake wear. But brake pads should wear at least 40K in mixed driving. They did blow out the shocks in their Ridgeline when they went off-road, which is something some other media had when they went off-roading in the Ridgeline.

The MB braking study is really good, besides warranty and repair data they also instrument and data log actual car use in multiple countries. Not sure if it's online but R&T talked about the overall analysis in a print edition (8-10 years ago). Some of the more interesting things were

- For the US, LA was considering the worst environment for braking in term of alot of stop/go on freeways which involve the brakes dissipating alot of thermal energy multiple times and also of hills.

- In a majority of accidents and close calls, folks do not use their full braking force performance. They learned this from the 80's braking study and further simulation which led to the rapid brake-assist S/W in the ABS system which applies more braking force when there is a extremely sudden brake application but in many cases the brakes are not applied to maximum force. Most other manufacturers copied this approach. I'm sure the lawyers were very nervous but in the end the firmware engineers got it implemented.

- Biggest customer complaint with MB brakes, dust.


So I agree that there are Honda brake wear on some models , but on all models of Honda/Acura? That's still a myth to me.

FWIW, I replaced the front pads on our 2003 with OEM pads since they had good feel, fade resistant, and lasted 107K miles. I have aftermarket pads for my TL Brembos' waiting in the garage I'll replace soon.