Proton (and Lotus) Near Collapse...
#1
Proton (and Lotus) Near Collapse...
Oh crap...!
From Bloomberg.com...
And from Leftlanenews...
From Bloomberg.com...
By Soraya Permatasari and Haslinda Amin
Oct. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Proton Holdings Bhd., Malaysia's biggest carmaker, will collapse unless it finds an international partner such as Volkswagen AG, said former premier Mahathir Mohamad, who set up the company more than two decades ago.
``At the rate it is going, it's not going to last long,'' said Mahathir, 80, who became an adviser to the Shah Alam, Malaysia-based automaker after stepping down as prime minister in 2003. ``Proton is reporting losses all the time, and they still have a lot of cars which they cannot sell.''
Proton has been losing market share to overseas rivals including Toyota Motor Corp., and needs to gain new technology and designs to compete. Volkswagen ended talks with the Malaysian carmaker in January because the two sides couldn't agree on issues including control of the company.
``The government may need to offer a bigger stake or give up management control,'' said Raymond Tang, who manages $1.7 billion as chief investment officer of CIMB-Principal Asset Management Bhd. in Kuala Lumpur. Those are ``the main points which they failed to agree on in previous talks,'' said Tang, who doesn't own the company's shares.
Proton's Chairman Mohammed Azlan Hashim and Managing Director Zainal Abidin Syed Mohd Tahir weren't immediately available for comment, the company's head of corporate communications, Faridah Idris, said by telephone today.
Proton, which produces eight car designs under its brand and two types of Lotus sports cars, has been seeking a foreign partner since Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Mitsubishi Corp. ended more than two decades of investment in the company in January 2005.
Volkswagen
Proton and state-owned investment agency Khazanah Nasional Bhd., which owns 43 percent of the automaker, are studying whether a foreign investor could revive its fortunes, Malaysia's Second Finance Minister Nor Mohamed Yakcop said Sept. 5.
Selling a majority stake isn't ``absolutely necessary,'' Mahathir said in the interview. Volkswagen, based in Wolfsburg, Germany, didn't want control of the company, he said.
``I still think Volkswagen is willing'' to talk, he said. ``Despite my initial intervention,'' Proton ``seems to be not keen at all to have anything to do with Volkswagen.''
Proton is also in talks to make cars with China's Jinhua Youngman Automobile Group Co. and Chery Automobile Co., as well as India's Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. Those companies may be allowed to buy a minority stake in the company in return for helping it expand in the world's two most populous nations, Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak said on June 19.
``We were working with Volkswagen and we had nearly completed'' the negotiations, Mahathir said. ``We would be manufacturing Volkswagen cars here and also using Volkswagen technology here. But the new management wants to work with China and India, thinking that they can enter these markets. I don't think they are going to get very far.''
Tariff Protection
The Malaysian carmaker's competitiveness has been eroded by the government's new auto policy, introduced in March, which made it cheaper to import cars into Malaysia, Mahathir said. The government cut import taxes to 5 percent from 15 percent.
``Proton cannot survive'' without protection, he said. ``When you go to Korea you don't see foreign cars. It's the same in Japan. They have ways and means of ensuring that foreign cars do not compete with their cars in their country.''
The company's share of Malaysia's car market fell to 40 percent last year from as much as two-thirds during the 1980s.
Malaysia, aiming to become a regional hub for car manufacturers such as Toyota and Isuzu Motors Ltd., offers incentives and tax breaks for overseas carmakers to assemble their products in the country.
Honda, Toyota
Proton's loss widened to 58.6 million ringgit ($16 million) in the first quarter ended June 30, from 12.4 million ringgit a year earlier as a lack of new models damped sales, the company said in August. Revenue fell 31 percent to 1.42 billion ringgit.
``Proton needs a strong partner,'' said CIMB-Principal Asset's Tang. ``The best partners could be something like Honda or Toyota. Those companies are very good at what they do but they may want to be able to institute changes.''
Proton last month signed an initial agreement with PSA Peugeot Citroen to study the possibility of developing new models together. The agreement is Proton's third this year with an overseas carmaker for possible joint product development.
``If you merely make an arrangement in order to get the platforms from some company, that is not a transfer of technology,'' Mahathir said, referring to the Peugeot accord. If ``that's what they intend to do now, that's not going to do any good for Proton.''
New Models
Proton is also developing a new model using Mitsubishi Motors' components and technology, which it plans to start selling early next year. The Malaysian carmaker, which last year posted its lowest profit since 1991, aims to introduce six models, including its first multi-purpose vehicle, this year through 2008 to reverse slumping sales.
Auto sales in Malaysia are set to decline for the first time in three years as falling prices of used cars, stricter lending rules, higher interest rates and an increase in fuel prices curb demand, the Malaysian Automotive Association said in July.
The reduction in import taxes earlier this year pushed down prices of new and used cars.
``The problem is the government insisted that the price of cars should be lowered, which is fine for the buying party but what they didn't realize is that they lowered the price so much that they lost money,'' Mahathir said. ``Proton certainly lost a lot of money.''
Oct. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Proton Holdings Bhd., Malaysia's biggest carmaker, will collapse unless it finds an international partner such as Volkswagen AG, said former premier Mahathir Mohamad, who set up the company more than two decades ago.
``At the rate it is going, it's not going to last long,'' said Mahathir, 80, who became an adviser to the Shah Alam, Malaysia-based automaker after stepping down as prime minister in 2003. ``Proton is reporting losses all the time, and they still have a lot of cars which they cannot sell.''
Proton has been losing market share to overseas rivals including Toyota Motor Corp., and needs to gain new technology and designs to compete. Volkswagen ended talks with the Malaysian carmaker in January because the two sides couldn't agree on issues including control of the company.
``The government may need to offer a bigger stake or give up management control,'' said Raymond Tang, who manages $1.7 billion as chief investment officer of CIMB-Principal Asset Management Bhd. in Kuala Lumpur. Those are ``the main points which they failed to agree on in previous talks,'' said Tang, who doesn't own the company's shares.
Proton's Chairman Mohammed Azlan Hashim and Managing Director Zainal Abidin Syed Mohd Tahir weren't immediately available for comment, the company's head of corporate communications, Faridah Idris, said by telephone today.
Proton, which produces eight car designs under its brand and two types of Lotus sports cars, has been seeking a foreign partner since Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and Mitsubishi Corp. ended more than two decades of investment in the company in January 2005.
Volkswagen
Proton and state-owned investment agency Khazanah Nasional Bhd., which owns 43 percent of the automaker, are studying whether a foreign investor could revive its fortunes, Malaysia's Second Finance Minister Nor Mohamed Yakcop said Sept. 5.
Selling a majority stake isn't ``absolutely necessary,'' Mahathir said in the interview. Volkswagen, based in Wolfsburg, Germany, didn't want control of the company, he said.
``I still think Volkswagen is willing'' to talk, he said. ``Despite my initial intervention,'' Proton ``seems to be not keen at all to have anything to do with Volkswagen.''
Proton is also in talks to make cars with China's Jinhua Youngman Automobile Group Co. and Chery Automobile Co., as well as India's Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. Those companies may be allowed to buy a minority stake in the company in return for helping it expand in the world's two most populous nations, Deputy Prime Minister Najib Razak said on June 19.
``We were working with Volkswagen and we had nearly completed'' the negotiations, Mahathir said. ``We would be manufacturing Volkswagen cars here and also using Volkswagen technology here. But the new management wants to work with China and India, thinking that they can enter these markets. I don't think they are going to get very far.''
Tariff Protection
The Malaysian carmaker's competitiveness has been eroded by the government's new auto policy, introduced in March, which made it cheaper to import cars into Malaysia, Mahathir said. The government cut import taxes to 5 percent from 15 percent.
``Proton cannot survive'' without protection, he said. ``When you go to Korea you don't see foreign cars. It's the same in Japan. They have ways and means of ensuring that foreign cars do not compete with their cars in their country.''
The company's share of Malaysia's car market fell to 40 percent last year from as much as two-thirds during the 1980s.
Malaysia, aiming to become a regional hub for car manufacturers such as Toyota and Isuzu Motors Ltd., offers incentives and tax breaks for overseas carmakers to assemble their products in the country.
Honda, Toyota
Proton's loss widened to 58.6 million ringgit ($16 million) in the first quarter ended June 30, from 12.4 million ringgit a year earlier as a lack of new models damped sales, the company said in August. Revenue fell 31 percent to 1.42 billion ringgit.
``Proton needs a strong partner,'' said CIMB-Principal Asset's Tang. ``The best partners could be something like Honda or Toyota. Those companies are very good at what they do but they may want to be able to institute changes.''
Proton last month signed an initial agreement with PSA Peugeot Citroen to study the possibility of developing new models together. The agreement is Proton's third this year with an overseas carmaker for possible joint product development.
``If you merely make an arrangement in order to get the platforms from some company, that is not a transfer of technology,'' Mahathir said, referring to the Peugeot accord. If ``that's what they intend to do now, that's not going to do any good for Proton.''
New Models
Proton is also developing a new model using Mitsubishi Motors' components and technology, which it plans to start selling early next year. The Malaysian carmaker, which last year posted its lowest profit since 1991, aims to introduce six models, including its first multi-purpose vehicle, this year through 2008 to reverse slumping sales.
Auto sales in Malaysia are set to decline for the first time in three years as falling prices of used cars, stricter lending rules, higher interest rates and an increase in fuel prices curb demand, the Malaysian Automotive Association said in July.
The reduction in import taxes earlier this year pushed down prices of new and used cars.
``The problem is the government insisted that the price of cars should be lowered, which is fine for the buying party but what they didn't realize is that they lowered the price so much that they lost money,'' Mahathir said. ``Proton certainly lost a lot of money.''
Proton will collapse unless it finds an international partner such as Volkswagen, said Mahathir Mohamad, who founded the Malaysia-based company twenty years ago. "At the rate it is going, it's not going to last long," Mahathir told Bloomberg. While Proton cars are not sold here in North America, they are sold in the United Kingdom, South Africa and Australia.
Perhaps more important to car enthusiasts, however, is the future of Lotus, which Proton acquired in 1996. Just three weeks ago, Proton said it would not consider selling Lotus, even if the financial situation worsens.
One possible partner for Proton/Lotus is Volkswagen, which Mahathir says is still willing to talk. VW has reportedly said it does not want control of the company. Interestingly, Volkswagen was said to be collaborating with Lotus on the now-cancelled GX3 three-wheeler.
Perhaps more important to car enthusiasts, however, is the future of Lotus, which Proton acquired in 1996. Just three weeks ago, Proton said it would not consider selling Lotus, even if the financial situation worsens.
One possible partner for Proton/Lotus is Volkswagen, which Mahathir says is still willing to talk. VW has reportedly said it does not want control of the company. Interestingly, Volkswagen was said to be collaborating with Lotus on the now-cancelled GX3 three-wheeler.
#5
Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
In the end if Proton fails...the sale of Lotus will be all but guaranteed.....and it should end up in good hands....so long as those hands are not the Chinese.
#6
Originally Posted by Yumchah
Got something against us Chinese, Waldorf...?
#7
Originally Posted by shrykhar
I do. I can't think of a single product of a Chinese owned and managed company whose product I really enjoy. Cheap transportation appliance, fine. Lotus? Hell NO.
That being said, I think the Chinese should be given a shot if they want to bid. Can't be worse off than Ford/GM buying off Proton/Lotus.
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#9
Heh, I thought you were going to roast me for that comment.
I don't know, the Japanese strike me as the ideal culture for car manufacturing -- they're odd, but their obsessive-compulsiveness about everything means that they've looked over the entire car development and manufacturing process with care. (That is, until management gets involved.)
The only thing I got after a decade in Taiwan was a general sense of cheapness around everything, and the sense that the people across the strait were even cheaper and more ruthless. I mean geez, they make cheap plastic toys and motherboards, and even the mobos are made with bright plastic colors and blinking lights now.
The Proton & Lotus thing never really made sense to me either ...
I don't know, the Japanese strike me as the ideal culture for car manufacturing -- they're odd, but their obsessive-compulsiveness about everything means that they've looked over the entire car development and manufacturing process with care. (That is, until management gets involved.)
The only thing I got after a decade in Taiwan was a general sense of cheapness around everything, and the sense that the people across the strait were even cheaper and more ruthless. I mean geez, they make cheap plastic toys and motherboards, and even the mobos are made with bright plastic colors and blinking lights now.
The Proton & Lotus thing never really made sense to me either ...
Last edited by shrykhar; 10-13-2006 at 05:54 PM.
#10
Originally Posted by shrykhar
Heh, I thought you were going to roast me for that comment.
I don't know, the Japanese strike me as the ideal culture for car manufacturing -- they're odd, but their obsessive-compulsiveness about everything means that they've looked over the entire car development and manufacturing process with care. (That is, until management gets involved.)
The only thing I got after a decade in Taiwan was a general sense of cheapness around everything, and the sense that the people across the strait were even cheaper and more ruthless. I mean geez, they make cheap plastic toys and motherboards, and even the mobos are made with bright plastic colors and blinking lights now.
I don't know, the Japanese strike me as the ideal culture for car manufacturing -- they're odd, but their obsessive-compulsiveness about everything means that they've looked over the entire car development and manufacturing process with care. (That is, until management gets involved.)
The only thing I got after a decade in Taiwan was a general sense of cheapness around everything, and the sense that the people across the strait were even cheaper and more ruthless. I mean geez, they make cheap plastic toys and motherboards, and even the mobos are made with bright plastic colors and blinking lights now.
That being said, again, I agree with you to an extent. And let's leave Taiwan out of this for a sec...in regards to China, I think there is indeed quality coming down the pipe. They are due. The big part of "cheap" goods/quality is often signs of a developing nation. As it grows and becomes more of an international player, hence the products improve. Like I said, it was just a not TOO long ago that Japanese products were considered ...and then, more recently, Korean...but, look how far Samsung and Hyundai (scandals from the automaker aside) have come?
Taiwan...well, sure. There are indeed "cheap" products. But, name me one computer that doesn't really have a component from there. And Acer, which I used to look down on is now one of my fave companies for notebooks. I dunno...like I said, give it a chance. Sure, I'm Chinese...but, I'm saying it because I think it's time and not because of blind loyalty to my culture/race.
#11
Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
Chinese cars = teh sux. Lotus deserves far better.
Besides -- Malaysia is the same country that President Bush has branded as 'harboring terrorists'. Does that make it OK? "Deserving of the Lotus name". ? What does China have? A bunch of communists? This kind of impression based upon the country of origin is totally ridiculous.
#12
Originally Posted by derrick
How can Lotus "do better"? And what kind of car company owns Lotus right now? A bunch of Malaysians! And what great auto heritage does Malaysia ever have? (Probably Just as good as the cars that China has ...)
Besides -- Malaysia is the same country that President Bush has branded as 'harboring terrorists'. Does that make it OK? "Deserving of the Lotus name". ?What does China have? A bunch of communists? This kind of impression based upon the country of origin is totally ridiculous.
Besides -- Malaysia is the same country that President Bush has branded as 'harboring terrorists'. Does that make it OK? "Deserving of the Lotus name". ?What does China have? A bunch of communists? This kind of impression based upon the country of origin is totally ridiculous.
#13
Indonesia also has a lot of fundamentalist Muslims ... and they're pretty much side by side with Malaysia on a map. (Sumatra is not too far away from the Malay penninsula)
But... I suppose Indonesia would be OK to own Lotus ... based upon some of the comments I read in this thread thus far ...
But... I suppose Indonesia would be OK to own Lotus ... based upon some of the comments I read in this thread thus far ...
#14
So far it's made sense in the same way that Ford owns Aston Martin. Ford makes cheap(er) cars, Aston makes tire shredders. They don't seem to have mucked about the way say, Audi, has changed Lamborghini (for the better).
Proton did try to attach some of the Lotus aura to some of their tin cans on wheels, with that "My First Lotus" ad for one of their cars. Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure they knew what to do with Lotus at all.
I'm just worried that the Chinese don't really have a good track record with cultural preservation, precision engineering, and other stuff that make a desirable sports car, which is what makes Lotus special. If they start slapping Lotus badges on cheap economy cars, then there's no point.
Proton did try to attach some of the Lotus aura to some of their tin cans on wheels, with that "My First Lotus" ad for one of their cars. Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure they knew what to do with Lotus at all.
I'm just worried that the Chinese don't really have a good track record with cultural preservation, precision engineering, and other stuff that make a desirable sports car, which is what makes Lotus special. If they start slapping Lotus badges on cheap economy cars, then there's no point.
#15
^ So it's OK for Ford to sell their cars along side ... say Volvo ... in the same commercial (ie Bill Ford ads). Doesn't that 'cheapen' Volvo to say that Ford stole their safety stuff (for the sake of propping up Ford 'quality'?) Or is it OK that "Ask Dr Z" ads imply that German engineering is in every Chrysler? (ie Mercedes engineering into Chrysler?) Doesn't that prop up Chrysler at the expense of MB?
I think what you're trying to say is that any country/company can own Lotus so as long as the 'mystique' / 'character' that makes a Lotus a Lotus is preserved. (ie Keep Lotus a separate entity.) I think anybody who's going to buy Lotus will do that ... if they kill the marque, then what's the point in buying it in the first place?
I think what you're trying to say is that any country/company can own Lotus so as long as the 'mystique' / 'character' that makes a Lotus a Lotus is preserved. (ie Keep Lotus a separate entity.) I think anybody who's going to buy Lotus will do that ... if they kill the marque, then what's the point in buying it in the first place?
#16
Originally Posted by shrykhar
I do. I can't think of a single product of a Chinese owned and managed company whose product I really enjoy.
#17
Originally Posted by derrick
^ So it's OK for Ford to sell their cars along side ... say Volvo ... in the same commercial (ie Bill Ford ads). Doesn't that 'cheapen' Volvo to say that Ford stole their safety stuff (for the sake of propping up Ford 'quality'?) Or is it OK that "Ask Dr Z" ads imply that German engineering is in every Chrysler? (ie Mercedes engineering into Chrysler?) Doesn't that prop up Chrysler at the expense of MB?
Originally Posted by derrick
I think what you're trying to say is that any country/company can own Lotus so as long as the 'mystique' / 'character' that makes a Lotus a Lotus is preserved. (ie Keep Lotus a separate entity.) I think anybody who's going to buy Lotus will do that ... if they kill the marque, then what's the point in buying it in the first place?
#18
Originally Posted by derrick
HMMMM ... considering that dirty Chinese banks own a significant part of the US gov't debt ... I think Americans better like their government's creditors because these banks are awfully lax as of late at collecting their money back.
#19
Originally Posted by Yumchah
Actually, wasn't it Indonesia that Dubya went all-accusatory about terrorist stuff...?
I'll take a Socialist totalitarian dictator over a radical Islamic dictator any day
#20
Originally Posted by derrick
How can Lotus "do better"? And what kind of car company owns Lotus right now? A bunch of Malaysians! And what great auto heritage does Malaysia ever have? (Probably Just as good as the cars that China has ...)
Besides -- Malaysia is the same country that President Bush has branded as 'harboring terrorists'. Does that make it OK? "Deserving of the Lotus name". ? What does China have? A bunch of communists? This kind of impression based upon the country of origin is totally ridiculous.
Besides -- Malaysia is the same country that President Bush has branded as 'harboring terrorists'. Does that make it OK? "Deserving of the Lotus name". ? What does China have? A bunch of communists? This kind of impression based upon the country of origin is totally ridiculous.
I could care less about a countries political positions when it comes to cars.
When I say Lotus can do better...it's exactly what I meant.
China is not proven yet on quality or sport/supercar designs.
Malaysia ownership is not a good place for Lotus either.
Lotus can do better by being sold to someone else...either German or Italian MFG's. IMO.
#21
Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
Lotus can do better by being sold to someone else...either German or Italian MFG's. IMO.
Like I said, I can see your uneasiness and shrykhar's...but, give it a chance. If the Chinese indeed are serious, I don't think they are that stupid to drive a reputable exotic car company into the Yangtze River.
If anything, Chinese are usually quite capable business people...so...I say, why not. But, this argument is lame. Where did it say that the Chinese were interested anyhoo? So, CHANGE OF SUBJECT BEFORE THIS GETS PUNTED INTO R&P.
#22
Originally Posted by Yumchah
Nice Waldorf...so, the car can now fall to pieces or have exploding engines.
Like I said, I can see your uneasiness and shrykhar's...but, give it a chance. If the Chinese indeed are serious, I don't think they are that stupid to drive a reputable exotic car company into the Yangtze River.
If anything, Chinese are usually quite capable business people...so...I say, why not. But, this argument is lame. Where did it say that the Chinese were interested anyhoo? So, CHANGE OF SUBJECT BEFORE THIS GETS PUNTED INTO R&P.
Like I said, I can see your uneasiness and shrykhar's...but, give it a chance. If the Chinese indeed are serious, I don't think they are that stupid to drive a reputable exotic car company into the Yangtze River.
If anything, Chinese are usually quite capable business people...so...I say, why not. But, this argument is lame. Where did it say that the Chinese were interested anyhoo? So, CHANGE OF SUBJECT BEFORE THIS GETS PUNTED INTO R&P.
The Chinese have to prove their abilities on the world car market stage first.
They will need time to perfect their vehicles.
...and I don't think they would drive Lotus into the Yangtze River...but rather drive if off of the Shanghai World Financial Center.
at German and Italian car mfg. vehicles falling apart & having exploding engines.....I am constantly dodging exploding German and Italian cars on the freeway all the time here in So. Cal. German and Italian cars are the worst. Nobody in their right mind would buy one. Heck...they are not even in demand.
#23
Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
You didn't mention the Chinese...I did.
The Chinese have to prove their abilities on the world car market stage first.
They will need time to perfect their vehicles.
...and I don't think they would drive Lotus into the Yangtze River...but rather drive if off of the Shanghai World Financial Center.
at German and Italian car mfg. vehicles falling apart & having exploding engines.....I am constantly dodging exploding German and Italian cars on the freeway all the time here in So. Cal. German and Italian cars are the worst. Nobody in their right mind would buy one. Heck...they are not even in demand.
The Chinese have to prove their abilities on the world car market stage first.
They will need time to perfect their vehicles.
...and I don't think they would drive Lotus into the Yangtze River...but rather drive if off of the Shanghai World Financial Center.
at German and Italian car mfg. vehicles falling apart & having exploding engines.....I am constantly dodging exploding German and Italian cars on the freeway all the time here in So. Cal. German and Italian cars are the worst. Nobody in their right mind would buy one. Heck...they are not even in demand.
Well, mebbe the smog's covering your eyes. Cuz, German and Italian cars do fall apart...Mercedes-Benz and Audi cars anyone? And oh, let's not even bring up Fiat and Alfa Romeo.
I like European cars as much as you do...but, like you to TFs, I'm on the darkside of them. Sorry.
#24
Originally Posted by Yumchah
Moron. How could they drive them off the Shanghai WFC...? At least into the Yangtze it makes sense since roads lead to it...since when do cars drive vertically...?
Well, mebbe the smog's covering your eyes. Cuz, German and Italian cars do fall apart...Mercedes-Benz and Audi cars anyone? And oh, let's not even bring up Fiat and Alfa Romeo.
I like European cars as much as you do...but, like you to TFs, I'm on the darkside of them. Sorry.
Well, mebbe the smog's covering your eyes. Cuz, German and Italian cars do fall apart...Mercedes-Benz and Audi cars anyone? And oh, let's not even bring up Fiat and Alfa Romeo.
I like European cars as much as you do...but, like you to TFs, I'm on the darkside of them. Sorry.
#25
Originally Posted by Yumchah
Moron. How could they drive them off the Shanghai WFC...? At least into the Yangtze it makes sense since roads lead to it...since when do cars drive vertically...?
Well, mebbe the smog's covering your eyes. Cuz, German and Italian cars do fall apart...Mercedes-Benz and Audi cars anyone? And oh, let's not even bring up Fiat and Alfa Romeo.
I like European cars as much as you do...but, like you to TFs, I'm on the darkside of them. Sorry.
Well, mebbe the smog's covering your eyes. Cuz, German and Italian cars do fall apart...Mercedes-Benz and Audi cars anyone? And oh, let's not even bring up Fiat and Alfa Romeo.
I like European cars as much as you do...but, like you to TFs, I'm on the darkside of them. Sorry.
holy shit, lately all your posts are freakin dumb as shit
Where do you even get your info from or do you just stereotype the whole car industry? What a joke.
#26
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
holy shit, lately all your posts are freakin dumb as shit
Where do you even get your info from or do you just stereotype the whole car industry? What a joke.
Where do you even get your info from or do you just stereotype the whole car industry? What a joke.
I've already said it and I'll say it again. German cars are nice...but, I have my reservations about them. And it's not baseless either. In my group of friends, 4 of them own German cars (i.e. Audi TT, VW Jetta, Mercedes-Benz SLK, and Mercedes-Benz E350)...And guess what? If you sat them down and had them read you their problems/gripes about cost of upkeep and the number times they have to visit the dealership, you'd shake your head too.
Get real bud. I've been on here long enough and you know I'm not one to often talk out of my @$$.
#27
And lovely...another German cars are overrated thread again. :rollseyes:
And for the record, I'd buy an Audi as my next car if I had the $$$ overall. So, stop being so hypersensitive whenever I diss your car brand's nationality. It's not like I'm making fun of Indian cars or your mom.
And for the record, I'd buy an Audi as my next car if I had the $$$ overall. So, stop being so hypersensitive whenever I diss your car brand's nationality. It's not like I'm making fun of Indian cars or your mom.
#28
Originally Posted by Yumchah
Get real bud. I've been on here long enough and you know I'm not one to often talk out of my @$$.
...but seriously your opinion on European cars is based off of 4 friends
#29
Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
...but seriously your opinion on European cars is based off of 4 friends
That being said, I'm not an anti-German/European car guy. Just more so that despite their great "driving experience", I'm leery at what I paid for is just a little too much on the fragile side (gotta save potential extra $$$ for robots, you know!)...
And to be honest, most of my recent commentary was more to drive Jesal and you nuts than anything else.
But, fine...I do talk out of out of my rear. But, it's only for robots. So there.
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