CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

So why are we discussing this again?

titan

The TSX will have plenty of competiton very soon. The 1-Series, A3, and B-Class is coming to our shores. All with stickers below $30K and all with I4s.

dom

Numbers off?

http://www.toyota.com/about/news/cor...4-1-sales.html

287,927 Lexus sales in 2004.

http://www.nissannews.com/

December Nissan Infiniti Sales figures.

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1001?m...55134&mime=asc

Honda December sales figures. TL sales have been averaging 7K + since its redesign. TSX sales have been averaging 2,500 to 3K since its intro.

dom

Acura has 3 all new cars in their lineup.

I'm not disagreeing with the trend in the market, like I said thats fairly obvious. The point I'm making is, a car does not have to be RWD to be considered a luxury vehicle and Acura's strong sales are proving that.

Lets even pull the ~20,000 RSX sales out of the 170,000 figure and guess what, Acura still outsells Infiniti.

Maximized

I don't disagree with that, but again I will point to Acura's 5th place finish in luxury car sales. All of the above brands offer RWD. As for the RSX and TSX, those vehicles would not be counted because by definition they aren't luxury cars. IMO, Infiniti in the last year has really come around to being a force in the luxury car market.

phile

Your argument would seem to fly, except for the fact that the #1 selling luxury brand, Lexus, relies on its FWD ES330 and RX330 (optional AWD) to make up the bulk of its sales.

goldmemberer

Ghosn's magic has yet to (productionally) infuse the M, the Q, and the I with sales. Once their entire line is overhauled, Infiniti will outsell Acura at the rate they're going.

biker

The current IS and GS are at the rear of the luxury sedan pack in terms of sales - despite being good cars.

dom

Acura has the RDX coming down the pipe and most likely a coupe replacement for the CL and hopefully a car above the RL so we'll see about that.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

So just to be fair, we should discount the Mercedes C-class, Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G35, the BMW 3-series, and the Audi A4 since they are all considered entry-luxury just like the TSX.

titan

No, we dicount the those cars (or atleast the V6 versions) because they're above the TSX. The TL truly competes with these cars. But the TSX can be seen as a competitor to the 4 cylinder versions of the A4 and 3-Series. Still, I think the comparos we'll see the TSX in will be ith the 1-Series, A3, and B-Class, since they'll be closer to similar size, price, and engines.

titan

The new M debuts in March, and the next Q will hopefully be blessed with Ghosn's magic hands, so I have high hopes also. Lets not forget the FX, which sells well. The I is gone.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

See, but that's a different argument entirely. Maximized was arguing that because the TSX is technically an entry-luxury car and not a true luxury car, it should not be included. By the same token, other "entry-luxury" cars should also not be counted in the statistics for the numbers to be relevant.

As for the 1-series, A3, and B-class, these will all be smaller than the TSX and the A3 and B-Class are going to be only offered in one body style, for the moment, that is the rather unpopular wagon. By EPA ratings, the TSX is a mid-size and these three competitors should all be compacts (with the possible exception of the B-class.

titan

I see your point. I was looking at engines and price points.

Maximized

The 3 series, A4 are considered because of their price. The TSX is Acura's entry level vehicle, but because of its price it would not be considered a luxury car. Like I said before, a luxury car is classified as a car or SUV priced over 30K.

Maximized

All the cars you listed would be considered luxury cars, per JD Power. The TSX and RSX is not therefore it wouldn't be counted.

95gt

So you are saying that if the TSX had another 1100 dollars worth of options it would be a luxury car? Pretty weak argument

The A4 starts at over a grand less than the TSX so you can be in a luxury car at 25k but not at 26k (TSX)

Maximized

I don't make the classifications nor am I in charge of tallying up luxury car sales. The people that do, don't classify the TSX as a luxury car.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

The people that do also don't work in the auto industry. They're a marketing/research firm. I would take their words with a grain of salt.

Maximized

I would disagree that they don't work in the auto industry, but they are a research firm. Every major automotive publication uses their data, so I would say its more than relevant, but thats not the point. A car under 30K is generally accepted as NOT being a luxury car. Would you classify a Lincoln Branded Focus as a luxury vehicle, I think not. People percieve the TSX or RSX as a luxury car because of the badge on the front and pack.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Ah...but that is only an American distinction. In Korea, Hyundai makes a "luxury" car. In Japan, the Honda Inspire is a luxury car. Luxury is not defined solely based on a price point or a brand name. Rather, in this day and age, when the majority of auto manufacturers have closed in on a range of reliability, design, and engineering, it is nearly impossible to simply define "luxury" based on something as rigid as a single number price point. In fact, based on that $30k definition, the A4, 3-series, IS300, Volvo S40 and S60, Mercedes C-class, Infiniti G35, etc. all don't count as luxury cars. You can't have it both ways. You gotta pick one definition.

And please show me the JD Powers information where they say the TSX is not a luxury car. I haven't seen this posted yet so I'm curious...

Maximized

Well I live in the good ole US of A, so I am going by the American defintion. Again, I think few would say a Lincoln "Focus" would be classified as a luxury car. I read an article in the Automotive News (automotive trade mag) that stated that luxury cars are 30K and above, I will try to find you a link. The quotes below show it a little higher.

Here is a quote form a Det News article:
"Analysts say the strength of the premium market is tied to three factors: status, perceived quality and value.

Indeed, the luxury segment, generally defined to include cars and trucks with prices that start just over $30,000, seems to be immune from any sort of infection the economy may blow its way."


Here is another article from a Buffulo Business Journal:

""If the stock market continues to make progress, luxury car sales, which are down 2 percent this year, will rebound. There is a close correlation between performance of the stock market and luxury car sales -- vehicles that cost $38,000 to $60,000 and beyond. Customers will look at their stock portfolios before they purchase a car in that price range," he said. "

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Right, so by that definition, then none of the cars that I mentioned should count as luxury cars because they all have a base price below $30k. And a TSX could easily be optioned beyond the $30k mark so would that then qualify it as being a luxury car?

Maximized

Again, you are asking the wrong man. I don't work for the company that compiles the yearly luxury car sales figures. The TSX costs $29,000 loaded, per Acura.com. I mean if you think the TSX is a luxury car, then I guess my Maxima is one also because it costs a few hundred dollars less.

Look how MSN classifies the above cars listed as near luxury:
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....=Luxury%20Cars

Then Luxury cars:
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....id=2899&src=NA

Notice how the 3 series is classified in both.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, you can't have it both ways though. If it's near luxury, then it shouldn't qualify to be a luxury car. Otherwise, if cars can qualify for both categories, then why both separating them or why not create a third category.

All you've shown me in those two links is that the definiton of luxury is fuzzy at best when you get down to the lower end. It doesn't support your case that there is a clear definition of luxury that can be used.

Maximized

It has also shown that the TSX is not a luxury car. Again, I am sure there is some sort of definition of luxury in able to classify the Best-Selling Luxury Brand.

jdone

Because everyone knows this is the last year for both of them. New models of both before fall.

phile

Not really, sales have been pretty much flat for those two for quite a while now.