Infiniti: Sales, Marketing, and Financial News
06-02-2005, 10:29 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by charliemike
Honda can build a V8s ... THey supply V10s to the McLaren team (or they did last year).
Now, building a race V10 is not thesame as a mass-production V8 but this company has the racing background to do it. All they'd have to do is lop off 2 cylinders
And then some other stuff but you get the idea.
Now, building a race V10 is not thesame as a mass-production V8 but this company has the racing background to do it. All they'd have to do is lop off 2 cylinders
And then some other stuff but you get the idea.
06-02-2005, 10:51 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I'm not talking about "lacking" resources, I'm talkig abouT the USE of the resources it has.
1) I know it's not fair or even PC to say it anymore, but it seems a V8 is a requirement to run with the big boys.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
You can say that a honda v6 can put out the same or more hp than other's v8's and that most makes with both v6 and v8s sell more v6's, but PERCEPTION is everything.
Most people buy 330s and 530s not 545s and 745s.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
AWD is a substitute for RWD, but they should make most offerings AWD instead of in just their RL and SUVs.
Dont forget the RDX. AWD out of the box
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
2) They share too many cars between Honda and Acura.
My opinion is this. If the premium car has been executed very very well, then no one cares where it's based.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
If they introduce Acura to another market, they need more models that are significantly separated from Honda.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
The RL is a Honda Legend, so that wouldn't work.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
The RSX is the Honda Integra, so that wouldn't work.
The TSX is the Accord, so that wouldn't work. Hell, the NSX is the Honda NSX, so that wouldn't work.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
They're left with just the MDX and TL (and RDX later). How are they gonna introduce a themselves to a new market with just one v6 FWD sedan (since SUV's aren't as popular in most other markets). Nissan at least started with the Q45 and G35 sedans, so they had 2 sedans covered. Acura just needs more ACURA ONLY models.
Wait. I just referenced a report that Infiniti is expanding to Taiwan. With the G35 Coupe in there. Isnt the G35 Coupe the Nissan Skyline around the world? So how do they do it?
I bet you the TSX can easily be sold as the Acura TSX in Europe where the Euro Spec Accord is also selling.
But all that is secondary for Acura. Acura has to expand in North America first before it lays out a global strategy. That's what Infiniti did and the same for Lexus. If you prove yourself in America, you can do it anywhere.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
3) We complain about it all the time...Acuras are BORING.
Infiniti may be the only brand excluded to the above.
Again, looks and taste are subjective. But, with premium brands, conservative sells better than not. People that can buy $40-50K vehicles are usually older. 45+ years old. They are conservative by then.
Plus conservative designs last longer.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Except for the TSX and TL, all of acura's offerings are mediocre at best.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
The NSX is OLD, the RL is too conservative.
It's on a league of its own. But that's what makes it unique.Anyway, the NSX's days are numbered.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
There's nothing to distinguish themselves with. Lexus is very luxurious. Infinti has bold design and sportiness. What does Acura have? Value? That's not a luxury trait. "Value" is something I'd look for when shopping Civics and Corollas. I'm not saying that having value is bad...both lexus and infiniti offer great values especially over german competitors, but offering Value as the KEY selling point doesn't work for a luxury brand.
I agree with that. But Acura has more than value. Acura has quality, durability, in many dymanic-related measures they are at the top. I am talking about all the ways a vehicle is measured when tested.
Acura has a lot going for them. They would have been selling record years/months if that were not true. Acura has an image problem and it's lacking product, but there is a lot going for them.
06-02-2005, 10:55 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I"m going for my MBA next year (hoping for Harvard or Wharton...but will settle for UT of Austin or Darden).
Then with an engineering degree and MBA...move over DICK [colliver]. Although I don't even know if he has much say with corporate Honda in Japan. ??
Then with an engineering degree and MBA...move over DICK [colliver]. Although I don't even know if he has much say with corporate Honda in Japan. ??
Although completely irrelevant to the thread, just a word of caution:
Do not think that degree/s will help you immensly within corporate America.
06-02-2005, 11:17 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I'm sure they can build a production V8 that would get about the same or better gas mileage than other company's v6's. They are a freakin' motor company and no one will argue with me that they make damn good production motors and engines as well as CARS.
But they just haven't done a mass production v8. Some will argue development costs vs. actual sales and yada yada yada...but that's the cost of doing business. Don't you think it costs other companies money to develop their v8's many many years ago? Ask any of them and I'm sure NONE have regretted it.
I think the costs would be worth it because:
1) Even though v8 sales volume would be lower, they are still losing potential buyers that want a v8, like me. As much as I am bored with the design of the RL, a v8 would still have made it a contender on my list.
2) They have a better chance of elevating their "prestige" with a v8. Magz are especially brutal when ALL of the competition have v8 options (GS, 5-series, M, E, STS; not to mention all of Ridgeline's competitors).
3) They would have the opportunity to really get into markets that DEMAND a v8 as a choice such as full size trucks and SUVs, competitive exotics (porsche is a special case with their flat-6), and full size luxury models.
4) The cost of developing a V8 now is most likely CHEAPER than it will be 5, 10, or 15 years from now since the competition with V8's is constantly moving and improving. I'm sure there's a learning curve with developing a mass production v8...the competition has already gotten past the hard part and are coasting along.
5) If they develop a v8 soon, they can limit the damage done by lost opportunities in new technology that the competition (toyota) will JUMP on soon. Hybrid V8 with cylinder deactivation anyone?
That's just my opinion though. As much as I loved my Acura and like Acuras in general, they just don't have a model that fits one of the criteria for my next car...a v8.
But they just haven't done a mass production v8. Some will argue development costs vs. actual sales and yada yada yada...but that's the cost of doing business. Don't you think it costs other companies money to develop their v8's many many years ago? Ask any of them and I'm sure NONE have regretted it.
I think the costs would be worth it because:
1) Even though v8 sales volume would be lower, they are still losing potential buyers that want a v8, like me. As much as I am bored with the design of the RL, a v8 would still have made it a contender on my list.
2) They have a better chance of elevating their "prestige" with a v8. Magz are especially brutal when ALL of the competition have v8 options (GS, 5-series, M, E, STS; not to mention all of Ridgeline's competitors).
3) They would have the opportunity to really get into markets that DEMAND a v8 as a choice such as full size trucks and SUVs, competitive exotics (porsche is a special case with their flat-6), and full size luxury models.
4) The cost of developing a V8 now is most likely CHEAPER than it will be 5, 10, or 15 years from now since the competition with V8's is constantly moving and improving. I'm sure there's a learning curve with developing a mass production v8...the competition has already gotten past the hard part and are coasting along.
5) If they develop a v8 soon, they can limit the damage done by lost opportunities in new technology that the competition (toyota) will JUMP on soon. Hybrid V8 with cylinder deactivation anyone?
That's just my opinion though. As much as I loved my Acura and like Acuras in general, they just don't have a model that fits one of the criteria for my next car...a v8.
All this talk about a V8...
The case for a V8 is different with Honda and Acura.
OK let's say Honda produces a V8. Let's say a 4.4L 350HP V8.
Acura:
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
The RL comes to mind. OK. How will that affect the price of it? Maybe another 5K? Probably a little more, so it differencitates it from the V6 more because V8 models usually come with more standard equippment, etc.
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
2. Where else can Acura put the V8?
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
BTW image-wise, the tree-hugger notion is gone with a V8. For some buyers that's a pro for buying an Acura. Believe me.
Now:
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
5. Where else?
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
6. Where else?
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
Now, a case can be made for an Acura vehicle that will be positioned over the RL (since both the TL and RL became smaller when reintroduced, it looks like such a vehicle might be in the works). Call it the XL for Extra Luxury, whatever. That vehicle would probably only come with a V8.
But that vehicle would be priced at least 10K over the RL as we now know the RL. So I cant see mass sales figures there either.
Bottom line.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
Now more arguments that work against a V8 for Honda/Acura.
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
06-02-2005, 02:11 PM
#45
Chloe @ 17mo
You make a whole bunch of sense. 
Originally Posted by gavriil
All this talk about a V8...
The case for a V8 is different with Honda and Acura.
OK let's say Honda produces a V8. Let's say a 4.4L 350HP V8.
Acura:
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
The RL comes to mind. OK. How will that affect the price of it? Maybe another 5K? Probably a little more, so it differencitates it from the V6 more because V8 models usually come with more standard equippment, etc.
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
2. Where else can Acura put the V8?
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
BTW image-wise, the tree-hugger notion is gone with a V8. For some buyers that's a pro for buying an Acura. Believe me.
Now:
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
5. Where else?
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
6. Where else?
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
Now, a case can be made for an Acura vehicle that will be positioned over the RL (since both the TL and RL became smaller when reintroduced, it looks like such a vehicle might be in the works). Call it the XL for Extra Luxury, whatever. That vehicle would probably only come with a V8.
But that vehicle would be priced at least 10K over the RL as we now know the RL. So I cant see mass sales figures there either.
Bottom line.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
Now more arguments that work against a V8 for Honda/Acura.
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
The case for a V8 is different with Honda and Acura.
OK let's say Honda produces a V8. Let's say a 4.4L 350HP V8.
Acura:
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
The RL comes to mind. OK. How will that affect the price of it? Maybe another 5K? Probably a little more, so it differencitates it from the V6 more because V8 models usually come with more standard equippment, etc.
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
2. Where else can Acura put the V8?
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
BTW image-wise, the tree-hugger notion is gone with a V8. For some buyers that's a pro for buying an Acura. Believe me.
Now:
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
5. Where else?
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
6. Where else?
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
Now, a case can be made for an Acura vehicle that will be positioned over the RL (since both the TL and RL became smaller when reintroduced, it looks like such a vehicle might be in the works). Call it the XL for Extra Luxury, whatever. That vehicle would probably only come with a V8.
But that vehicle would be priced at least 10K over the RL as we now know the RL. So I cant see mass sales figures there either.
Bottom line.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
Now more arguments that work against a V8 for Honda/Acura.
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
06-02-2005, 02:47 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by gavriil
All this talk about a V8...
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
06-02-2005, 03:06 PM
#47
Cost Drivers!!!!
1- power....not cylinders...but that can be debated.
2- sharing of platforms?
Nissan and every other manufacturer isn't doing the exact same thing? TL is based on Accord platform as well. Isn't a g35 a debaged nissan? yes....
3- agreed. i think they are taking steps in the right direction with the current releases. TSX, TL, RL out of the box are sporty. More sport i'd say than the competitors at the price point. Aside from the m45 the RL does rather well. 530 will put your ass to sleep. What's exciting about a overweight, underpower, over priced car aside from paying out the ass for it???? That being said, RL does need a bump in power. Perhaps IMA?
SHAWD will go along way in helping but Acura needs to do a better job of marketing it. Perhaps an introduction on the TL and/or new NSX etc., Factory reps have already said SHAWD will be standard across on Acura V6s.
2- sharing of platforms?
Nissan and every other manufacturer isn't doing the exact same thing? TL is based on Accord platform as well. Isn't a g35 a debaged nissan? yes....3- agreed. i think they are taking steps in the right direction with the current releases. TSX, TL, RL out of the box are sporty. More sport i'd say than the competitors at the price point. Aside from the m45 the RL does rather well. 530 will put your ass to sleep. What's exciting about a overweight, underpower, over priced car aside from paying out the ass for it???? That being said, RL does need a bump in power. Perhaps IMA?
SHAWD will go along way in helping but Acura needs to do a better job of marketing it. Perhaps an introduction on the TL and/or new NSX etc., Factory reps have already said SHAWD will be standard across on Acura V6s.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I'm not talking about "lacking" resources, I'm talkig abouT the USE of the resources it has.
1) I know it's not fair or even PC to say it anymore, but it seems a V8 is a requirement to run with the big boys. You can say that a honda v6 can put out the same or more hp than other's v8's and that most makes with both v6 and v8s sell more v6's, but PERCEPTION is everything. AWD is a substitute for RWD, but they should make most offerings AWD instead of in just their RL and SUVs.
2) They share too many cars between Honda and Acura. If they introduce Acura to another market, they need more models that are significantly separated from Honda. The RL is a Honda Legend, so that wouldn't work. The RSX is the Honda Integra, so that wouldn't work. The TSX is the Accord, so that wouldn't work. Hell, the NSX is the Honda NSX, so that wouldn't work.
They're left with just the MDX and TL (and RDX later). How are they gonna introduce a themselves to a new market with just one v6 FWD sedan (since SUV's aren't as popular in most other markets). Nissan at least started with the Q45 and G35 sedans, so they had 2 sedans covered. Acura just needs more ACURA ONLY models.
3) We complain about it all the time...Acuras are BORING. Except for the TSX and TL, all of acura's offerings are mediocre at best. The NSX is OLD, the RL is too conservative. There's nothing to distinguish themselves with. Lexus is very luxurious. Infinti has bold design and sportiness. What does Acura have? Value? That's not a luxury trait. "Value" is something I'd look for when shopping Civics and Corollas. I'm not saying that having value is bad...both lexus and infiniti offer great values especially over german competitors, but offering Value as the KEY selling point doesn't work for a luxury brand.
I think the combination of all 3 of these makes it very difficult for Acura to establish its name in unknown markets. Except for #2, I think the problems listed above also apply to Acura in the U.S. They are doing well saleswise, but doing well is not the same as doing GREAT like Lexus is doing and Infiniti is starting to do.
1) I know it's not fair or even PC to say it anymore, but it seems a V8 is a requirement to run with the big boys. You can say that a honda v6 can put out the same or more hp than other's v8's and that most makes with both v6 and v8s sell more v6's, but PERCEPTION is everything. AWD is a substitute for RWD, but they should make most offerings AWD instead of in just their RL and SUVs.
2) They share too many cars between Honda and Acura. If they introduce Acura to another market, they need more models that are significantly separated from Honda. The RL is a Honda Legend, so that wouldn't work. The RSX is the Honda Integra, so that wouldn't work. The TSX is the Accord, so that wouldn't work. Hell, the NSX is the Honda NSX, so that wouldn't work.
They're left with just the MDX and TL (and RDX later). How are they gonna introduce a themselves to a new market with just one v6 FWD sedan (since SUV's aren't as popular in most other markets). Nissan at least started with the Q45 and G35 sedans, so they had 2 sedans covered. Acura just needs more ACURA ONLY models.
3) We complain about it all the time...Acuras are BORING. Except for the TSX and TL, all of acura's offerings are mediocre at best. The NSX is OLD, the RL is too conservative. There's nothing to distinguish themselves with. Lexus is very luxurious. Infinti has bold design and sportiness. What does Acura have? Value? That's not a luxury trait. "Value" is something I'd look for when shopping Civics and Corollas. I'm not saying that having value is bad...both lexus and infiniti offer great values especially over german competitors, but offering Value as the KEY selling point doesn't work for a luxury brand.
I think the combination of all 3 of these makes it very difficult for Acura to establish its name in unknown markets. Except for #2, I think the problems listed above also apply to Acura in the U.S. They are doing well saleswise, but doing well is not the same as doing GREAT like Lexus is doing and Infiniti is starting to do.
06-02-2005, 04:59 PM
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Acura has a 49k 300hp V-6 RL and its loaded. If they have a V-8, the car will be loaded and be maybe 5-10k more. The Rl sells some of the least in its class, V-8 cars always sell less than the V-6 brothers so conservative Honda just doesn't see the business case with an additional maybe 400 V-8 RLs a month, when they are already behind expected sales figures with a V-6 model.
Accept Acura for what they are, entry level luxury. You want luxury and a V-8 jump to another brand. You want a V-12, you cannot even buy a Japanese branded car in the US or Europe.
Accept Acura for what they are, entry level luxury. You want luxury and a V-8 jump to another brand. You want a V-12, you cannot even buy a Japanese branded car in the US or Europe.
06-02-2005, 05:12 PM
#49
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Meh, V8s are over-rated gas-guzzling cars IMHO...
Sure, they are nice. But, I'm happy with a 260+ HP V6 car anyday...
Sure, they are nice. But, I'm happy with a 260+ HP V6 car anyday...
06-02-2005, 06:47 PM
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Gav...all your points listed above are valid...NOW.
So Acura and honda don't have much use for a V8 NOW.
But what about future development? without a v8, they can only develop models based on v6 and i4 engines. Even if they develop a v8 and barely use it...AT LEAST they have one sitting ont he shelves to work off of.
And I agree, Acura is doing well in sales...but they are STILL a mid-premium maker because they are lacking a v8 to compete with everyone else that HAS a v8. It's not PC or fair, but that's one of the main reasons.
So Acura and honda don't have much use for a V8 NOW.
But what about future development? without a v8, they can only develop models based on v6 and i4 engines. Even if they develop a v8 and barely use it...AT LEAST they have one sitting ont he shelves to work off of.
And I agree, Acura is doing well in sales...but they are STILL a mid-premium maker because they are lacking a v8 to compete with everyone else that HAS a v8. It's not PC or fair, but that's one of the main reasons.
06-02-2005, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
Although completely irrelevant to the thread, just a word of caution:
Do not think that degree/s will help you immensly within corporate America.
Do not think that degree/s will help you immensly within corporate America.
With an engineering degree (mechanical) I can only get so far so fast. I can work my way up the corporate ladder (long time) and risk getting stuck in middle management, and I'm pretty much limited to the companies I can work for with only an engineering degree.
With an MBA (from a top 20-30 school), more doors should be open to me for quicker advancement and I'll have the option to get out of the engineering field.
Also, I want the education. with my undergrad degree, I don't remember learning too much...its hazy, but I rremember something about ping pong ballz and arguing over 12oz cups (moravian rules) vs. 9oz (Lehigh rules). I actually want to get an MBA and LEARN because i'm interested, not because it's a "default" thing to do after high school. I'm already involved in real estate and other businesss but want to get more in depth into it also.
e.g., I can be a BRILLIANT in science and biology, but have a degree in art. You think a pharmaceutical company would hire me to develop their next blockbuster drug? HELLZ NO! I would need a degree in biology just to get through the door.
06-02-2005, 09:03 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by gavriil
All this talk about a V8...
The case for a V8 is different with Honda and Acura.
OK let's say Honda produces a V8. Let's say a 4.4L 350HP V8.
Acura:
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
The RL comes to mind. OK. How will that affect the price of it? Maybe another 5K? Probably a little more, so it differencitates it from the V6 more because V8 models usually come with more standard equippment, etc.
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
2. Where else can Acura put the V8?
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
BTW image-wise, the tree-hugger notion is gone with a V8. For some buyers that's a pro for buying an Acura. Believe me.
Now:
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
5. Where else?
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
6. Where else?
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
Now, a case can be made for an Acura vehicle that will be positioned over the RL (since both the TL and RL became smaller when reintroduced, it looks like such a vehicle might be in the works). Call it the XL for Extra Luxury, whatever. That vehicle would probably only come with a V8.
But that vehicle would be priced at least 10K over the RL as we now know the RL. So I cant see mass sales figures there either.
Bottom line.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
Now more arguments that work against a V8 for Honda/Acura.
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
The case for a V8 is different with Honda and Acura.
OK let's say Honda produces a V8. Let's say a 4.4L 350HP V8.
Acura:
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
The RL comes to mind. OK. How will that affect the price of it? Maybe another 5K? Probably a little more, so it differencitates it from the V6 more because V8 models usually come with more standard equippment, etc.
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
2. Where else can Acura put the V8?
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
BTW image-wise, the tree-hugger notion is gone with a V8. For some buyers that's a pro for buying an Acura. Believe me.
Now:
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
5. Where else?
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
6. Where else?
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
Now, a case can be made for an Acura vehicle that will be positioned over the RL (since both the TL and RL became smaller when reintroduced, it looks like such a vehicle might be in the works). Call it the XL for Extra Luxury, whatever. That vehicle would probably only come with a V8.
But that vehicle would be priced at least 10K over the RL as we now know the RL. So I cant see mass sales figures there either.
Bottom line.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
Now more arguments that work against a V8 for Honda/Acura.
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
06-03-2005, 02:40 AM
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I think the only reason why acura needs a V8 is because all luxury brands have a V8. Maybe the reason why acura is often called an entry-luxury brand is because they dont offer what other luxury brands do. Acura doesnt need a V8, but acura would seem like more of a competitor if it is offered. The reason the concept NSX didnt go through is because honda didnt offer a V8 on such an expensive car. The horsepower was there, but the engine was still considered small. If acura really wants to establish itself as a true competitor in the luxury car world, they have to offer bigger engines. Also, having a V8 in the acura lineup would separate honda and acura more. As of right now, honda cars have almost everything acura has. A v8 in the acura lineup would show people that there actually is a difference between acura and honda which would ultimately increase acuras brand prestige
Last edited by 03TL-S; 06-03-2005 at 02:42 AM.
06-03-2005, 06:32 AM
#54
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Ok, I'm going to disect your statements like you did mine, so HA!
Ok, first keep in mind that I'm not talking about sales. The main idea of my post is if Acura wants to expand overseas into broader markets, it needs to raise it's PRESTIGE, and in order to do so, it needs to do certain things such as develop a v8.
I agree 100%. The don't need a v8 to top sales figures. But the PERCEPTION of the brand is Acura is a mid-premium brand, unable to hang with competitors who have v8's. Hey, you gotta have the right ticket to get into the club!
Agreed, same as above.
Agreed...but we're arguing a different argument.
a premium car based on a non-premi car can be excellent! BUT the problem doesn't lie in basing a premium car on a non-premium, it lies in having the SAME car rebadged as a Honda. The markets with Honda Legends, NSX's, euro-spec Accords, and Integras will be all but impossible for Acura to get into since most of their offerings are ALREADY offered there under the Honda name. Acura needs to develop more models SPECIFIC to the Acura not offered under the Honda name anywhere in that market.
Same as above...I'm not arguing platforms or basing a model off another one. I'm talking about rebadged cars. Imagine how well the TSX would sell if they offered the euro-spec accord at honda dealerships, or if the honda integra was sold in the U.S. as well as a RSX under acura. That's what I'm talking about. They cant' introduce cars when they'r ealready there.
[quote=gavriil]Obviously Acura has no immediate plans to expand globally.
Right...my post is rebutting MSZ's post way back on the first page that says Acura should go global or something like that.
I don't know, but they found a way. According to the main post, they hav ealready been selling the g35 sdn there, and from what I know that is also a nissan skyline. Maybe they didn't introduce the skyline models to taiwan.
Why do you think that?
Agreed, that's what I said way back on the first page somewhere that I think Acura is having a hard time expanding in the U.S. so it's a bad idea for them to expand globally.
Agreed Agreed Agreed...but I'm not talking about sales numbers. I'm talking about raising themselves from their mid-lux level to full-lux. All these other manufacturers up there took risks, whether it be design or technology or something somewhere in thier history, and that contributed to where they are now. Acura needs to AT LEAST match what the competitors are offering to be welcomed to that club (like a v8).
Sorry, I meant mediocre in design...it's not bad, it's good but no more. That's subjective though, but you get my gist.
I agree that the NSX is unique...but it's still OOOOOLLLLDDDD!!!!
I agree, but value seems to be the PRIORITY with Acura. That's why they have so few options. Lexus offers all of these things too like value, quality, reliability, but its priorities are set up so value takes the passenger seat or back seat...not the driver's seat. The luxury market is this way...quality, reliability, THEN value. Lexus aligned themselves perfectly with the luxury market in this way, which is why they are doing so well.
Agreed Agreed AGreed!!! I'm not talking sales numbers, I"m talking PRECISELY about the image problem.
Ok, first keep in mind that I'm not talking about sales. The main idea of my post is if Acura wants to expand overseas into broader markets, it needs to raise it's PRESTIGE, and in order to do so, it needs to do certain things such as develop a v8.
Originally Posted by gavriil
For market perception and overall image. Not for botton line sales figures though.
Originally Posted by gavriil
I dont think any of the Acura offerings are affected in a negative way sales-wise because of the lack of a V8. If they are, the effect is minimal.
Most people buy 330s and 530s not 545s and 745s.
Most people buy 330s and 530s not 545s and 745s.
Originally Posted by gavriil
This has been an endless debate which has lead to no definitive conclusions about if a manufacturer bases their premium cars to their non-premium cars affects sales.
My opinion is this. If the premium car has been executed very very well, then no one cares where it's based.
My opinion is this. If the premium car has been executed very very well, then no one cares where it's based.
a premium car based on a non-premi car can be excellent! BUT the problem doesn't lie in basing a premium car on a non-premium, it lies in having the SAME car rebadged as a Honda. The markets with Honda Legends, NSX's, euro-spec Accords, and Integras will be all but impossible for Acura to get into since most of their offerings are ALREADY offered there under the Honda name. Acura needs to develop more models SPECIFIC to the Acura not offered under the Honda name anywhere in that market.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Why? You think that the average buyer knows the platform strategy of auto manufacturers? THe average buyer does not even know what to think about AWD vs RWD.
[quote=gavriil]Obviously Acura has no immediate plans to expand globally.
Right...my post is rebutting MSZ's post way back on the first page that says Acura should go global or something like that.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Wait. I just referenced a report that Infiniti is expanding to Taiwan. With the G35 Coupe in there. Isnt the G35 Coupe the Nissan Skyline around the world? So how do they do it?
Originally Posted by gavriil
I bet you the TSX can easily be sold as the Acura TSX in Europe where the Euro Spec Accord is also selling.
Originally Posted by gavriil
But all that is secondary for Acura. Acura has to expand in North America first before it lays out a global strategy. That's what Infiniti did and the same for Lexus. If you prove yourself in America, you can do it anywhere.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Acuras are conservative, is the correct way to put it in my opinion. But that is not something that necessarily affects their sales figures negatively. Not at all. Audis have been conservative as long as I can remember. Only lately (last year) they are making an effort to change that with the new nose. BMWs have been also conservative up to before Bangle and controversial after him. Mercedes. Excluding the SLK, I dont think there is anything that looks super exciting over there either.
Infiniti may be the only brand excluded to the above.
Again, looks and taste are subjective. But, with premium brands, conservative sells better than not. People that can buy $40-50K vehicles are usually older. 45+ years old. They are conservative by then.
Plus conservative designs last longer.
Infiniti may be the only brand excluded to the above.
Again, looks and taste are subjective. But, with premium brands, conservative sells better than not. People that can buy $40-50K vehicles are usually older. 45+ years old. They are conservative by then.
Plus conservative designs last longer.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Acutally, I even find the TSX being conservative. I am not sure what you mean when you write "mediocre". Mediocre in what?
Originally Posted by gavriil
The NSX does not count It's on a league of its own. But that's what makes it unique.
Anyway, the NSX's days are numbered.
It's on a league of its own. But that's what makes it unique.Anyway, the NSX's days are numbered.
Originally Posted by gavriil
I agree with that. But Acura has more than value. Acura has quality, durability, in many dymanic-related measures they are at the top. I am talking about all the ways a vehicle is measured when tested.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Acura has a lot going for them. They would have been selling record years/months if that were not true. Acura has an image problem and it's lacking product, but there is a lot going for them.
06-03-2005, 07:16 AM
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Ok, next stimulus to discect from Gavriil...
I'm not arguing that they SHOULD'VE designed a V8, I'm arguing the case for staring development NOW for use in the future.
It's too late for any current models, I'll give you that. But I'm thinking about next generations (3-5 years from now) of RL, TL, MDX, and something above the RL, and most DEFINITELY the NSX successor. That's 5 potential candidates 5 or less years away.
I agree that IF the current RL had a v8, it would sell very few. I don't hear Infiniti, BMW, or Lexus complaining though. With the next gen RL, I expect a full complement of NEW technologies which they can package differently between the v6 and v8. And another thing, I'm pretty sure the M35 and M45 differ in ONLY the engine, not standard equipment.
See comments for RL. Competitors aren't complaining their 6's are outselling their v8's. Even Volvo, who doesn't have a v8, is going to put a yamaha v8 in the xc90
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
Agreed, I'm again not talking about sales, I'm talking about improving image to expand into different markets.
Toyota has v8's...and they're probably considered as "granola" as Honda.
How about a full size truck or the next gen Ridgeline? It's already too late for this generation.
How about full size SUVs. This and full size trucks are lucrative markets that Honda missed out on simply because LACK of a v8 and experience using them. Develop a v8 now so they don't miss out on other OPPORTUNITIES in the future!
Again, I never said anything about directly increasing sales with a v8...it's increasing image, and with increased image will come increased sales. And yes, there are not any CURRENT vehicles except the RL, Ridgeline, MDX, and Pilot that would benefit from a V8 (imagewise), but what about future lost opportunities without a v8? They got into the SUV game late, they got into the TRUCK game late, what does the future hold?
VW/Audi don't have any trucks and just recently started offering SUVS...but hey, they have a V8 (or W8 or whatever). And Honda/Acura is in a much better position to have a v8 that doesn't sell than VW/Audi.
Ok, I'm getting tired since I"m in China and it's actualy 8pm and I gotta hit the gym, so I'll just get to this last one quickly.
Having a hybrid v6 is great and all, but what about people who want v8's? They're still goign to pass over Acura.
Point is, even with all the reasons NOT to build a v8, if Acura wants to elevate it's status past volvo/saab, then it's gonna need a v8. Ask any manufacturer with a v8 if they ever regretted investing money and resources to design one, and i honestly think none will have.
I'm not arguing that they SHOULD'VE designed a V8, I'm arguing the case for staring development NOW for use in the future.
Originally Posted by gavriil
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
Originally Posted by gavriil
The RL comes to mind. OK. How will that affect the price of it? Maybe another 5K? Probably a little more, so it differencitates it from the V6 more because V8 models usually come with more standard equippment, etc.
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
How many RLs will be sold with a V8? At $57K? And that's on the low end for the price...Very very few!
Originally Posted by gavriil
2. Where else can Acura put the V8?
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
The MDX. OK. Same thing. THe V8 MDX will go up also and some will sell but most will still continue to sell with the V6 and the reasonable price.
Originally Posted by gavriil
3. Where else?
A special vehicle team is created for Acura, ala-AMG and we also see the V8 in the SVT TL. Ala-next-M3.
That's also a very limited production vehicle.
So overall, the V8 will do very little for Acura to increase sales. Some of its image will be affected positively but overall its sales will not. At least not significantly.
Originally Posted by gavriil
BTW image-wise, the tree-hugger notion is gone with a V8. For some buyers that's a pro for buying an Acura. Believe me.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Now:
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
Originally Posted by gavriil
5. Where else?
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
The Pilot. The Pilot will sell even fewer V8 MDXs I say. If someone has the money to buy a V8 Pilot, they will go and buy a V6 MDX, because the price is the same now. So canibalization is one issue there, plus no one will buy a super expensive V8 Pilot.
Originally Posted by gavriil
6. Where else?
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
The Accord, no way, the CRV, no way, Civic, no way, Element no way, Odyssey no way, S2000 no way.
So overall we have not found ONE vehicle that will actually help move more product within Honda or Acura.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Bottom line.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
A V8 MAKES SENSE FOR HONDA/ACURA ONLY IF HONDA ADDS A FULL LINE OF TRUCKS AND SUVs ALA-GM. THEN ACURA CAN BORROW THAT V8 FOR CERTAIN LOW VOLUME ACURAs FOR CHEAP SINCE ECONOMIES OF SCALE WILL PERMIT THAT.
Originally Posted by gavriil
Now more arguments that work against a V8 for Honda/Acura.
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
7. IMA. The case of Hybrids.
We all know that Hybrid Acuras are just around the corner. The technology exists with 3 Hondas already. Two of them are the best selling Hondas. So I am sure we will see a hybrid AWD TSX (per the rumor) and if that's the case, what's to say we wont see a hybrid RL and TL?
If we will see a hybrid TL and RL, then Acura has two ways to go with their design:
A. To go the "power way" as it did with the Accord.
B. To go the "low gas consumption" way as it did with the Insight.
For Acura, I say A is more likely than B. Since it's a premium brand. PLus that' what Lexus has done up to now.
If that's the case then a detuned 3.2L V6 in the TL making...say 235HP and IMA will result in 300HP (maybe 320HP), SHAWD and the same gas consumption as with the current TL.
Suddenly the need for a V8 for the TL is even more minimized. If you add a V8 to it, it better make at least 370HP. But then it will cost as much as a current M3. No one will buy it.
The IMA TL will probably cost another $4K on top of the current. Dont be folled by the RX400h's price difference on top of the RX330. Half of that difference is due to added standard options. The TL has virtually no options to add. GPS excluded.
Let's talk about the RL:
Going the power way, Acura will detune the existing 3.5L V6 to...say, 260HP and add even more powerful IMA motors than in the case of the TL and keep the SHAWD. So a total of 330HP (max. 350HP) is not out of the question.
So here is your V8 power. Oh and it burns "V6 gas". Plus it's AWD and it costs $55K OPTIONED OUT.
So I ask all of you again:
WHERE WILL THAT INFAMOUS LACKING V8 BE USED FOR HONDA/ACURA?
Say it's produced. Now what?
Having a hybrid v6 is great and all, but what about people who want v8's? They're still goign to pass over Acura.
Point is, even with all the reasons NOT to build a v8, if Acura wants to elevate it's status past volvo/saab, then it's gonna need a v8. Ask any manufacturer with a v8 if they ever regretted investing money and resources to design one, and i honestly think none will have.
06-03-2005, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Gav...all your points listed above are valid...NOW.
So Acura and honda don't have much use for a V8 NOW.
But what about future development?
So Acura and honda don't have much use for a V8 NOW.
But what about future development?
That's the future for Acura. IMA and AWD. Why do you need a V8?
06-03-2005, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
And I agree, Acura is doing well in sales...but they are STILL a mid-premium maker because they are lacking a v8 to compete with everyone else that HAS a v8. It's not PC or fair, but that's one of the main reasons.
06-03-2005, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Actually, Yes I do.
With an engineering degree (mechanical) I can only get so far so fast. I can work my way up the corporate ladder (long time) and risk getting stuck in middle management, and I'm pretty much limited to the companies I can work for with only an engineering degree.
With an MBA (from a top 20-30 school), more doors should be open to me for quicker advancement and I'll have the option to get out of the engineering field.
Also, I want the education. with my undergrad degree, I don't remember learning too much...its hazy, but I rremember something about ping pong ballz and arguing over 12oz cups (moravian rules) vs. 9oz (Lehigh rules). I actually want to get an MBA and LEARN because i'm interested, not because it's a "default" thing to do after high school. I'm already involved in real estate and other businesss but want to get more in depth into it also.
e.g., I can be a BRILLIANT in science and biology, but have a degree in art. You think a pharmaceutical company would hire me to develop their next blockbuster drug? HELLZ NO! I would need a degree in biology just to get through the door.
With an engineering degree (mechanical) I can only get so far so fast. I can work my way up the corporate ladder (long time) and risk getting stuck in middle management, and I'm pretty much limited to the companies I can work for with only an engineering degree.
With an MBA (from a top 20-30 school), more doors should be open to me for quicker advancement and I'll have the option to get out of the engineering field.
Also, I want the education. with my undergrad degree, I don't remember learning too much...its hazy, but I rremember something about ping pong ballz and arguing over 12oz cups (moravian rules) vs. 9oz (Lehigh rules). I actually want to get an MBA and LEARN because i'm interested, not because it's a "default" thing to do after high school. I'm already involved in real estate and other businesss but want to get more in depth into it also.
e.g., I can be a BRILLIANT in science and biology, but have a degree in art. You think a pharmaceutical company would hire me to develop their next blockbuster drug? HELLZ NO! I would need a degree in biology just to get through the door.
Ah! You said it. More doors. Certainly, possibly, more doors would be open becuase of your educational background, but that does not mean that the degrees will continue helping you. Which is the same thing I wrote above. Degrees dont take you very far within corporate America.
06-03-2005, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 03TL-S
As of right now, honda cars have almost everything acura has.
06-03-2005, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Ok, I'm going to disect your statements like you did mine, so HA!
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Ok, first keep in mind that I'm not talking about sales. The main idea of my post is if Acura wants to expand overseas into broader markets, it needs to raise it's PRESTIGE, and in order to do so, it needs to do certain things such as develop a v8.
Rule number 1 today within all auto manufacturers is that
EVERYTHING IS ABOUT SALES.
Sure things like profit margin, image, net income, etc matter, but it all starts from how much presence one has in the market, how much they sold last month, year, etc.
The funny thing is that you say that you want to refer to Acura expanding oversees, etc. but you're not referring to sales. How can that be? These two go together. If Acura or any other company wanted to expand anywhere, it's because they want to...SELL MORE.
No?
06-03-2005, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Agreed...but we're arguing a different argument.
a premium car based on a non-premi car can be excellent! BUT the problem doesn't lie in basing a premium car on a non-premium, it lies in having the SAME car rebadged as a Honda.
The markets with Honda Legends, NSX's, euro-spec Accords, and Integras will be all but impossible for Acura to get into since most of their offerings are ALREADY offered there under the Honda name. Acura needs to develop more models SPECIFIC to the Acura not offered under the Honda name anywhere in that market.
a premium car based on a non-premi car can be excellent! BUT the problem doesn't lie in basing a premium car on a non-premium, it lies in having the SAME car rebadged as a Honda.
The markets with Honda Legends, NSX's, euro-spec Accords, and Integras will be all but impossible for Acura to get into since most of their offerings are ALREADY offered there under the Honda name. Acura needs to develop more models SPECIFIC to the Acura not offered under the Honda name anywhere in that market.
I dont understand how the above is affecting Acura sales or even its image negatively.
Two reasons:
The first reason it does not affect them negatively is because simply, the above is not happening in the same market. The Acura RL is a Honda Legend OUTSIDE the USA's market. You think people that buy the RL here know that Honda sells it as a Honda Legend in Europe and Japan? Same for the TSX (which has substantial differences over the EUro Accord btw but that's a different discussion).
The thought process of a potential RL buyer is completely different than what you think above.
The second reason is: Honda is rebadging some Acura cars as Hondas elsewhere because simply:
A. Acura has no presence outside North America (there may be on or two country exceptions) and
B. Honda's image in Europe for example, is a lot more of a premium product than its image here in America.
You are comparing apples and oranges and on top of that you are doing it for the wrong reasons
06-03-2005, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Because the TSX and the Euro Spec Accord are not exactly as similar as most of you think they are.
One example:
Here is your Euro Spec Honda Accord's interior
And here is the Acura TSX's interior:
And looking at the pics is half the story for the TSX. Once you sit it, you see the other half. The interior is of a much more expensive car when you compare to the competition.
Basically, the Euro Accord is equipped with the US Accord's interior and the TSX gets its own which is way better.
I bet you the TSX can easily be sold as the Acura TSX in Europe where the Euro Spec Accord is also selling.
Why do you think that?
One example:
Here is your Euro Spec Honda Accord's interior
And here is the Acura TSX's interior:
And looking at the pics is half the story for the TSX. Once you sit it, you see the other half. The interior is of a much more expensive car when you compare to the competition.
Basically, the Euro Accord is equipped with the US Accord's interior and the TSX gets its own which is way better.
06-03-2005, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Agreed Agreed Agreed...but I'm not talking about sales numbers. I'm talking about raising themselves from their mid-lux level to full-lux.
BMW and MB are selling the 750 and 760 and S 500 and S600 because IT HELPS THE SALES OF THE 3 SERIES AND THE C-CLASS.
They are not making extraordinary amounts of money on the 7 and the S class.So. We go back to my point about ACura which is:
Acura primary "issue" is not the lack of a V8. IT'S THE LACK OF PRODUCT TO PUT THAT V8 IN!
06-03-2005, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I agree, but value seems to be the PRIORITY with Acura. That's why they have so few options.
You have it backwards
Acura based their strategy on value, BECAUSE OF LACK OF PRODUCT. See? It all goes back to what I think is Acura's problem.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Lexus offers all of these things too like value, quality, reliability, but its priorities are set up so value takes the passenger seat or back seat...not the driver's seat. The luxury market is this way...quality, reliability, THEN value. Lexus aligned themselves perfectly with the luxury market in this way, which is why they are doing so well.
06-03-2005, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Agreed Agreed AGreed!!! I'm not talking sales numbers, I"m talking PRECISELY about the image problem.
The LS helps Lexus' image. Same with the S600 and 760i for MB and BMW respectively.
06-03-2005, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Ok, next stimulus to discect from Gavriil...
I'm not arguing that they SHOULD'VE designed a V8, I'm arguing the case for staring development NOW for use in the future.
06-03-2005, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
1. Where will Acura put that V8?
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
It's too late for any current models, I'll give you that. But I'm thinking about next generations (3-5 years from now) of RL, TL, MDX, and something above the RL, and most DEFINITELY the NSX successor. That's 5 potential candidates 5 or less years away.
First of the NSX is probably dead as we know from the rumors.
FOr the rest, I made the case of IMA.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I agree that IF the current RL had a v8, it would sell very few. I don't hear Infiniti, BMW, or Lexus complaining though. With the next gen RL, I expect a full complement of NEW technologies which they can package differently between the v6 and v8. And another thing, I'm pretty sure the M35 and M45 differ in ONLY the engine, not standard equipment.
But you agree with my basic premise, which is that a V8 RL would "sell very few" as you wrote. So we agree.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
See comments for RL. Competitors aren't complaining their 6's are outselling their v8's. Even Volvo, who doesn't have a v8, is going to put a yamaha v8 in the xc90
1. Their turbo engines are way too expensive to continue developing for meeting emissions (gas consumption of the existing engine was also an issue)
2. The main corporate image just changed recently and the order came from the top for:
A. Adding more passion into the existing safety image of the company (this point is not directly related to the V8 but more to the outside design of the Volvo cars)
B. Adding more sportiness into the existing safety image of the company.
Acura does not have a "lack of sportiness" image (although lack of passion is easily debatable but it has little to do with the lack of a V8 engine), they are pretty fast and they handle well without a V8.
The XC is a LOT heavier than the MDX, hence a V8 was necessary if one had to add sportiness.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Agreed, I'm again not talking about sales, I'm talking about improving image to expand into different markets.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Toyota has v8's...and they're probably considered as "granola" as Honda.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
How about a full size truck or the next gen Ridgeline? It's already too late for this generation.
The Ridgeline was just introduced as we all know. And it was the first truck Honda offering here. It's not easy to introduce another truck and be competitive quickly. And the next gen. of Ridgeline is at least 3.5 years away.
Reality is what I described above. Which was:
Originally Posted by gavriil
4. Where can Honda use a V8?
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
The Ridgeline. If you look at the price it's already high considering the size of that truck. And size with trucks as you know is everything. So no one will want to buy a super-expensive, V8-equipped, small-size, Honda truck. Very very few will sell there.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
How about full size SUVs. This and full size trucks are lucrative markets that Honda missed out on simply because LACK of a v8 and experience using them. Develop a v8 now so they don't miss out on other OPPORTUNITIES in the future!
Dude you are so stuck on that V8. How can I explain this to you and the rest that are stuck on this infamous V8 engine that's "ruining Honda and Acura"? The lack of the V8 is not the issue. The lack of the product to put the V8 in is the issue.
Maybe what you are missing is how difficult and expensive it is to design, develop and produce, or rather introduce, new products into new segments and be competitive.
A V8 engine is secondary to the above. The truck or car is the issue. Honda can't run as fast as Toyota can run. They have proven that. Not even as fast as Nissan runs.
So what are they gonna do with an engine when they have nowhere to put it in?
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Again, I never said anything about directly increasing sales with a v8...it's increasing image, and with increased image will come increased sales.
IMAGE IS SOUGHT AFTER BY COMPANIES BECAUSE IT LEADS TO SALES.
So where is the issue then?
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
VW/Audi don't have any trucks and just recently started offering SUVS...but hey, they have a V8 (or W8 or whatever). And Honda/Acura is in a much better position to have a v8 that doesn't sell than VW/Audi.
Also, if VW wants a reasonable piece of this market, they have no choice than to get into the truck market very aggressively. And there is very serious talk of that as we speak. Some decisions may have been made already.
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Having a hybrid v6 is great and all, but what about people who want v8's? They're still goign to pass over Acura.
06-03-2005, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
Acura primary "issue" is not the lack of a V8. IT'S THE LACK OF PRODUCT TO PUT THAT V8 IN!
06-03-2005, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by titan
Again, I agree mainly with Mr. Deeno in this spiritied debate... I'm a fan of the two extra cylinders for Acura. But I agree with your above statement also. The question is Gav, which comes first? The chicken or the egg? The V8 engine (or V6 and IMA equivalent) or the actual flaship (S-Class/LS/Q/7-Series/A8 fighter) to put it in. At this point, I'm starting not to care as much about the V8. Because they can have a V6 + IMA making 350HP... the problem is they still won't have a car above the RL to put it in. And for some reason, Acura (and Honda) doesn't seem to see the need for a big boy all out lux car to compete with the LS and company. I just don't get that...
06-03-2005, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 03TL-S
They dont have anything to compete against the LS, 7, S, Q, because acura is still having a hard time selling in the car segment with the GS, 5, E, M.
06-03-2005, 06:46 PM
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I think what's influencing me to sort of bash acura is I am somewhat pissed that the RL wasn't as great as I hoped it would be.
I love the interior, I hate the exterior...not in an "ugly" way but because it's so conservative, and I'm disappointed by the drivetrain...it may be fast compared to other awd 6cyl competitors, but the competitors also offer an OPTION for a faster car. I really really wanted to like it too.
Even with the conservative styling and lower Acura "image", It would be close to the top of my list if it had a v8 which is why I"m pushing for a honda/acura v8. I'm one of THOSE people that want a v8 in my next car and I actually feel bad that I have to pass over Acura because of that.
I love the interior, I hate the exterior...not in an "ugly" way but because it's so conservative, and I'm disappointed by the drivetrain...it may be fast compared to other awd 6cyl competitors, but the competitors also offer an OPTION for a faster car. I really really wanted to like it too.
Even with the conservative styling and lower Acura "image", It would be close to the top of my list if it had a v8 which is why I"m pushing for a honda/acura v8. I'm one of THOSE people that want a v8 in my next car and I actually feel bad that I have to pass over Acura because of that.
06-03-2005, 07:53 PM
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I agree on that point, if the RL had a v8/higher power option that was running in the 5's, I think it would have caught a lot more peoples attention at intro just due to the press alone.
2nd, it would have allowed the car to be compared head to head with Infiniti and Lexus instead of playing this inbetween game where it can't quite be compared to either.
The TL has the power to take on the segment, would have been nice if the RL had more than 30xtra hp to continue the trend, considering there is no typeS.
2nd, it would have allowed the car to be compared head to head with Infiniti and Lexus instead of playing this inbetween game where it can't quite be compared to either.
The TL has the power to take on the segment, would have been nice if the RL had more than 30xtra hp to continue the trend, considering there is no typeS.
06-03-2005, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
I doubt the M35 and M45 differ only in engine but I will have to check that. For an offer like that to make sense, the V8 usually offers a lot more than an engine.
Between the M45 sport and M35 Sport, the ONLY difference in standard options is the engine.
Between the M45 and M35, there is a difference in that ELECTRONIC BRAKEFORCE DISTRIBUTION and BRAKE ASSIST isn't listed as a standard item, but I think it's because someone forgot to type it in.
But that's the only difference I could find between M45 and M35 models.
06-04-2005, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
Ah! You said it. More doors. Certainly, possibly, more doors would be open becuase of your educational background, but that does not mean that the degrees will continue helping you. Which is the same thing I wrote above. Degrees dont take you very far within corporate America.
It's also a diminishing return. I can go on and get a JD/MBA combo which would probably be really helpful, but if I get a MSc in ME as well as a JD and MBA, then one of those degrees wouldn't make much of a difference in my career and be more or less a waste of money and time.
But an interesting observation, I know A LOT of people in college that started off in Engineer, couldn't hack it so switched to Business, couldn't hack it either so switched to Psychology or some other joke of a degree and ended up working for companies doing nothing that has anything to do with psych. In that case, I guess the experience of going through college is worht something, but the degree isn't.
I knew a kid who majored in THEOLOGY without plans or desires to go into religion or into graduate studies. he's complaining that the only job he can find is answering phones for the local alarm company. the part that REALLY amazes me...he actually wonders why!
06-04-2005, 06:06 PM
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Think an mba/phd will very possibly end up helping you in the future, sure there is only so much gain at initial sign on, but at 45-50 when you're trying to move into that vp/p spot and it comes down to you and the next qualified guy, higher education levels are definately going to play a role.
Education alone though, won't do anything unless the person getting it wants to really excel in the work place. Grades would be the first indicator.
Also don't think an engineering degree is really that much harder than getting an accounting degree/etc., its all in what the student really wants to go through to graduate.
Education alone though, won't do anything unless the person getting it wants to really excel in the work place. Grades would be the first indicator.
Also don't think an engineering degree is really that much harder than getting an accounting degree/etc., its all in what the student really wants to go through to graduate.
06-04-2005, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by titan
Again, I agree mainly with Mr. Deeno in this spiritied debate... I'm a fan of the two extra cylinders for Acura. But I agree with your above statement also. The question is Gav, which comes first? The chicken or the egg? The V8 engine (or V6 and IMA equivalent) or the actual flaship (S-Class/LS/Q/7-Series/A8 fighter) to put it in. At this point, I'm starting not to care as much about the V8. Because they can have a V6 + IMA making 350HP... the problem is they still won't have a car above the RL to put it in. And for some reason, Acura (and Honda) doesn't seem to see the need for a big boy all out lux car to compete with the LS and company. I just don't get that...
06-04-2005, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by titan
The question is Gav, which comes first? The chicken or the egg?
Plus it's more expensive to design and develop a new offering, than just a new engine.
06-04-2005, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I think what's influencing me to sort of bash acura is I am somewhat pissed that the RL wasn't as great as I hoped it would be.
I love the interior, I hate the exterior...not in an "ugly" way but because it's so conservative, and I'm disappointed by the drivetrain...it may be fast compared to other awd 6cyl competitors, but the competitors also offer an OPTION for a faster car. I really really wanted to like it too.
Even with the conservative styling and lower Acura "image", It would be close to the top of my list if it had a v8 which is why I"m pushing for a honda/acura v8. I'm one of THOSE people that want a v8 in my next car and I actually feel bad that I have to pass over Acura because of that.
I love the interior, I hate the exterior...not in an "ugly" way but because it's so conservative, and I'm disappointed by the drivetrain...it may be fast compared to other awd 6cyl competitors, but the competitors also offer an OPTION for a faster car. I really really wanted to like it too.
Even with the conservative styling and lower Acura "image", It would be close to the top of my list if it had a v8 which is why I"m pushing for a honda/acura v8. I'm one of THOSE people that want a v8 in my next car and I actually feel bad that I have to pass over Acura because of that.
Have you test driven an RL mr deeno?
06-05-2005, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gavriil
Have you test driven an RL mr deeno?
I actually wasn't really interested in the RL as my next car...I was shopping for M3 convertibles at the time, but eventually decided against it. Then the teasers for the M45 came out.
So honestly, if I had a chance to test drive the RL before the M45 came out, I probably would've liked the RL enough to buy it. But due to timing I ended up test driving the M45 sport and was blown away.
I will most PROBABLY try to get extended test drives of the RL, M45, and GS430 prior to making my final decision, but it doesnt' look good for the RL at all.
06-05-2005, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Honestly, no I haven't.