Colin

I'm not convinced they're selling below cost at this stage in the game. However, I do recognize that they typically sell Prius' at higher prices than Honda does with the Insight. By adding more lux features, they can pad the cost vs. retail margin. (like selling the Blueray player at cost, but selling the Monster Cable at 80% margin) I think Honda recognized that there was a niche to exploit in the sub-20K market and probably assumed buyers would accept ~5-7% less fuel economy in exchange for ~10% less cost.

dom

Agree on all points and I think the idea of a sub 20K hybrid was a good one. They just failed on the execution and in generating any positive marketing or momentum. They let it die on the vine from day 1 it seems.

phile

the interior alone on the Prius C would turn me off.

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...a-prius-c.html

I don't think the Insight's interior is that bad - it definitely is low rent, but not as bad as Honda's foray into bargain basement territory with the new Civic.

the Insight's sloping rear roof is a liability - it's cramped back there, and I'm no 6-footer. it's just slightly better than the backseat in the old Acura RSX. that needs to be addresses pronto on the new version.

in terms of ergonomics, keep it the way it is. see the spy pics of the Prius C's ergonomic failure (center mounted gauges - just why?!).

Moog-Type-S

^^ Prius interior has always been that way.
...and they sell them in droves. No failure here.

Colin

Not a liability to me since I'd rarely put anyone back there. Any back seats would be 'just in case' seating for us. I just illustrates the point that everyone values different things in a vehicle. The (seemingly) constant push amongst Honda 'enthusiasts' on the internet towards conformity is such a contradiction.

I'm pretty sure that the center mounted dash pod saves them TONs of money since they don't need to make two dashboards for right and left hand drive cars.

Invisible

I abhor the center dash layout of the PRIUS. Oh, and effyou trolling moderator DOM

dom

But I think you'll agree that you're in the minority and most people put value on a back seat. The back seat seems to be a constant complaint as far as the Insight goes IIRC so having it compromised is likely hurting sales.

Invisible

You do mostly see cars like the Prius and Insight being used as a single occupant commuter vehicle. Agreed, the backseat is a minor issue.

Colin

I agree, many do care about back seat space. This was one of the reasons for a car larger than the 3G Integra sedan. It had a pretty small back seat too. Yet, through our rose colored glasses we often forget that.

It's just that there is no 'one answer' to every car's 'problems'. The more you look to answer everybody (on the internet) concerns, you more you end up with a homogenized car. The Insight has definitely underperformed sales wise, but I contend that the ONLY reason was/is that the car is overpriced for what you get, be it FE or interior quality, take your pick. Generally, most consumers on the sales floor are different than people who populate enthusiast forums. Throw a 20% discount (amount of yen appreciation) at them, and they'll forgive a few sins. For a $3000 discount, I'd bet that they could dip their heads a bit to get into the back seat.

dom

I can't disagree with that, although I can point to the Honda Fit. I think you're suggesting the Insight is overpriced because of exchange, correct?

The Fit is a car that suffers the same problem. Its made in Japan yet it manages to sell just fine. IIRC its more expensive than its immediate competition, at least it is in Canada. IMO the reason it sells is because its a very good car. Something the Insight is not.

Colin

I think you're saying the same thing from a slightly different POV. The Fits sell well because it's good relative to it's competition. Relative to the competition (assumes Prius) the Insight needed to have a price advantage because it was designed to be a cheaper alternative. Without the price advantage, the Insight doesn't have anything to 'hang it's hat on." It didn't help that Toyota outflanked Honda by announcing a 'stripper' Prius but then never really made it available. Currently, the cheapest (mythical) Prius is 23,500 and the Insight starts at 18,300. Obviously a 5K difference isn't enough to sway people, but what might have happened if the Insight started at 15,300? I'm convinced the sales would be different.

This is not a discussion of whether Honda was right to pursue a 'cheap' hybrid, or if they should have made a more upscale model. (I think they should have). Just that the biggest problem is not "what you get" but rather "what you get for the money".

TSX69

Hybrid HighWay Battle: Lexus CT 200h vs Honda Insight

HONDA INSIGHT vs LEXUS CT 200h REVIEW

It’s a question that has hung around since the 1st-generation Prius arrived in showrooms in 1997 - do hybrids have a fuel-efficiency advantage on the highway?

Their urban-cycle credentials are well accepted. With fuel-saving features like engine start-stop and electric-only drive modes, most modern hybrids can achieve surprising fuel efficiency in even the heaviest traffic.

But take them away from the big smoke, and the picture is not so clear.

High-speed cruising takes the average parallel hybrid powertrain (a series hybrid, like the expected Holden Volt, is quite different) well out of its comfort zone.

At speeds above 70km/h, cars the like the Prius and Lexus CT 200h can’t operate under battery power alone, and the continuous running of the petrol engine at 100km/h diminishes the modern hybrid’s key advantage - the ability to run with its engine off to save fuel.

Consequently, highway economy figures for parallel hybrids aren’t all too impressive, particularly when compared with the new crop of ultra-efficient diesels.

On factory fuel-efficiency claims, while a car like the Volkswagen Golf Bluemotion sips just 3.4 litres of diesel on the highway cycle, the Lexus CT 200h consumes 4.1 l/100km of petrol.

The outcome is reversed for urban commuting, with the Golf consuming 4.7 l/100km and the Lexus just 4.0 l/100km.

As noted, these are the raw claims quoted by the manufacturer and, as many will attest, they’re often at odds with what’s achievable in real world driving.

With that in mind, we took 2 hybrids out on the open road to find out exactly how they’d fare on Australian highways.

For this test, we chose an entry-level Honda Insight VTi and the mid-grade Lexus CT 200h F Sport.

Not only are the 2 cars separated on price (the Honda costs just $29,990, the Lexus $49,990), but they differ quite markedly on how their hybrid powertrains operate.

The Lexus employs the same system used by its corporate cousin, the Toyota Prius. At low speed and light throttle, it can propel itself for up to two kilometres under battery power alone, which saves a significant amount of fuel when crawling through peak-hour log-jams.

When the car is coasting or decelerating, the CT 200h’s 100kW 1.8 litre engine switches off to conserve even more fuel, and kinetic energy is recouped to recharge the on-board battery.

By contrast, the Insight seems a lot less sophisticated. Aside from when it’s at a complete stop with the brake pedal pressed, the Insight’s 72kW 1.3 litre engine runs almost constantly, the electric motor only cutting in when extra performance is required.

In the Honda, there’s no ability to drive under electric power alone, nor does the engine turn off when coasting. The Insight does have 2 key advantages though: light weight and a slippery shape - both of which should help it achieve good economy on the highway.

The Lexus weighs just under 1.5 tonnes, the Insight weighs in around 300kg less. The CT 200h’s heated leather seats, extra acoustic insulation and its bangin’ sound system will undoubtedly make long-distance cruising a pleasant experience, but the weight penalty incurred does no favours to fuel economy.

Our test route comprised a 650 kilometre loop through Eastern Victoria, running East from Melbourne along the M1, then along the A1 through Sale, Bairnsdale and Lakes Entrance before turning back.

This wasn’t a solid 110km/h cruise. There are numerous towns along the way with 80km/h and 60km/h speed zones.

We had no intention of hyper-miling either, so the air-conditioner in both cars stayed on and Eco mode remained switched off.

Remember: this was a real-world test, not an attempt to see if we could match the manufacturer’s claim. With that in mind, the results were very close between the two cars, and a little surprising.

We were far from hitting the quoted figures for the Lexus - claiming 4.1 l/100km - but we came within a hair’s breadth of achieving the Insight’s official 4.5 l/100km extra-urban consumption.

Our final 'real-world' numbers? The Lexus came home with 4.9 l/100km, closely bettered by the Honda at 4.6 l/100km.

The CT 200h’s engine, like the Insight’s, is almost constantly burning fuel at highway speed. The Lexus is also at a disadvantage due to its weight and less aero-friendly shape, but on the flipside, the extra luxury on offer makes it a very comfortable highway cruiser.

The Insight isn’t so comfortable and nowhere near as quiet inside as the Lexus. Yet we were pleasantly surprised by how close it came to its factory-quoted fuel economy figure, especially given the significant speed variations and hills encountered along the route.

That said, neither car would provide much of a challenge to a small-capacity turbo-diesel on the highway, but with each recording sub-5.0 l/100km fuel economy figures, you can’t exactly accuse them of being fuel guzzlers either.

More to the point, for cars that are arguably designed more for urban commuting, both the Insight and CT 200h did quite well on the open highway. Not perfect, but definitely not bad.

The Basics
Lexus CT 200h

Vehicle Style: Small hybrid five-door hatch
Price: $49,990 (plus on-roads)
Powertrain: 1.8 litre 4-cylinder petrol engine and rear-mounted electric motor, producing a combined 100kW and 207Nm of torque.
Fuel consumption (claimed): 4.1 l/100km
Fuel consumption (tested here): 4.9 l/100km

Honda Insight

Vehicle Style: Small hybrid five-door hatch
Price: $29,990 (plus on-roads)
Powertrain: 1.3 litre 4-cylinder petrol engine and electric motor, producing a combined 73kW and 167Nm of torque.
Fuel consumption (claimed): 4.5 l/100km
Fuel consumption (tested here): 4.6 l/100km

biker

^ That converts to 48 MPG for the CT and 51 MPG for the Insight.

Moog-Type-S

Nothing beats a diesel on the HWY

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ lol yea...don't know why the article even mentioned something so obvious......hybrids are not designed for hwy driving....there's not much energy to be captured from driving at constant speed...........

TSX69

Spied: Honda's Smaller, Next-Generation Insight Hybrid

Looking to finally crack the secret to rivaling Toyota's Prius line, Honda is moving its next-generation Insight hybrid down market. Whereas the current Insight targets the standard Prius, the next-generation of the car will take aim at the smaller Prius c.

Don't let this test mule's looks fool you – what we have here is an early testbed for the next-generation Insight, not a new version of the Honda Fit.

Underneath the Fit's bodywork resides all-new mechanicals that will form the basis of the all-new Insight. Although our spy photographers weren't able to snap a picture of the mule's engine bay, Honda's latest 1.5L 4-cylinder and new 7-speed gearbox likely reside underhood.

Honda hasn't found much success going against the standard Prius, so will instead focus on the compact Prius c for the car's next-generation. In fact, this Insight mule was spotted testing alongside Toyota's smallest Prius model.

A peak inside reveals significant modifications to the Fit's center stack and gauge cluster. A new gear lever is clearly visible, mimicking the design found in Toyota's Prius.

Given the Insight's disappointing sales, Honda is likely rushing this new model to market. That means we could see Honda's new Insight for the 2014 model year, rather than a 2015 launch that was previously rumored.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Definitely looks like a Fit, but that isnt a bad thing IMO. Lets hope it can actually compete with the Prius.

phile

the Fit body is just a shell.

TSX69

Honda Ends Insight Hybrid OutPut as Sales Trail Prius

Honda Motor Co. will end production of the Insight model, the 1st hybrid vehicle introduced in the United States, after demand plunged and sales lagged behind Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius.

Honda informed dealers in November that the current generation of the Insight will be discontinued this month and asked them to stop taking orders, said Yuka Abe, a Tokyo-based spokeswoman for Honda.

She declined to comment on whether there will be a new version of the model.

The Insight was the 1st hybrid vehicle in the U.S. market when Honda introduced it in 1999, 7 months earlier than the Prius.

The Toyota hybrid went on to become the best-selling dual-powered car of all time, with cumulative sales of 3.19 million vehicles as of January, according to the company.

By comparison, Honda delivered a cumulative 280,629 vehicles of the Insight globally as of the end of last year, of which 157,275 were sold in Japan.

U.S. sales of the model plunged 18% to 4,802 last year, making it the 2nd-worst selling car in the Honda brand lineup, behind only the CR-Z hybrid.

Honda began this month with 237 days worth of supply of the Insight, according to Automotive News Data Center, almost 4 times the 60-day inventory that automakers generally consider to be ideal in the U.S. market.

Honda stopped production of the 1st-generation Insight in 2006, before reviving it in 2009. Honda has 5 hybrid models in its lineup, including the Accord sedan and the Fit compact car.

dom

Surprised it took this long.

AZuser

Wonder when they'll kill the CR-Z.

Moog-Type-S

It's about time. This thing was giant mess since day one.

Now either put a turbo 4 in the CRZ, or kill that one too.

Honda has got to get rid of the dead weight.

Bring out new and better product.

dom

And how the fawk does Honda expect to get traction whatsoever against the Prius when they're not properly planning or have a successor ready? I'm sure they will eventually come out with something. Will it be called a Insight or something else? And why in the hell isn't the replacement ready to go???? Did they not realize their Hybrid sales are terrible years ago when the rest of us did? You see this with so many Honda products. Letting products die on the vine with little to no updates and then let it languish for years on end until its discontinued. Unbelievable how inept they are are product planning.

And before someone mentions the new small car hybrid system, that isn't ready yet. This car should have been available until it was.

Yumcha

Goodbye, Insight...hardly noticed/knew ye...

Edward'TLS

Being one generation and also years of successful hybrid production experience, behind the Prius, Honda is simply naive enough to think it's Insight can even reach the Prius' level in sales.

Moog-Type-S

Other than the Accord and perhaps the Oddy , Honda is going the Acura route of not competing directly, and not pushing to be class leader.

Civic has been taken over by the massive competition.
Insight Toyota and Ford own.
CRZ Nobody cares. It's an odd ball car
Ridgeline odd ball
Pilot massive competition here as well


I don't know what Honda is thinking.

Legend2TL

Moog's ever present opinion on Honda/Acura

OK, now some facts and reality

3 of the top 12 selling vehicles (car and truck) in the US are Honda's (Accord, Civic, CRV)

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html

Only Toyota and Ford also have 3 vehicles in there.

Honda may be missing the sales on some vehicles, but it's mainstream vehicles are doing pretty well.

Moog-Type-S

^^ Thanks for recapping what I said.

They have a couple of vehicles Accord, Oddy...I forgot the CRV that do well for them, the rest are swing and a miss.

Glad you agree!

Remember back when Honda brought a lot to the table?
Those were the good old days. Accord, Civic, Prelude, CRX....good times indeed.

Legend2TL

OK, let's see what you said below.

1) Civic taken over? It's #2 to Corolla by <1K month, Cruze is down by 3K from the Civic.

2) CRV, seems you totally missed that.

So yeah I really agree with you

Moog-Type-S

^^ Glad you understand, civic used to be #1. It used to dominate.

Perhaps maybe you are right, and Honda should continue it's path of Insights, Civics that continually look the same, CRZ niche products that nobody is buying. Keep on building the "truck" everyone wants...Ridgeline....maybe they should bring back the Element too.

phile

I think the Fit Hybrid will in essence replace the Insight in the Honda lineup. So yeah it won't be a dedicated hybrid model a la Prius but it will be an option for consumers.

Hapa DC5

re: Insight.

Who are you?

Legend2TL

FIFY

fsttyms1

Because whoever is really in charge is in a whole different world. They seem to be their own worst enemy.

Moog-Type-S

Always the honda apologist.

Meanwhile the majority here "the haters" really want Honda/Acura to change their ways and get back to where they once were as class leaders, innovators, and produce vehicles that have that "lust after" factor.

You are content with Honda/Acura mediocrity.

Legend2TL

FIFY again

Legend2TL

My $0.02 on the Insight and other Honda/Acura hybrids not including the new two Accord hybrids (plugin and regular) is summed up with three letters

IMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Motor_Assist).

Although cute and novel for their first hybrid attempt (99 Insight), it was a doomed technology compared to Toyota's superior HSD system which offered a better power-train solution. The IMA was size efficient but that's about it, the Toyota approach copied from the original TRW hybrid drive-train patents from the 70's. It used a planetary gears to allow coupling and uncoupling of the gas motor which allowed electric only operation. IMA can not allow electric only without huge friction losses since the gas motor is always connected to the electric.

Honda stuck with IMA for over a dozen years which proved to be a bad business and engineering decision, they knew a Prius had greater efficiency long ago at the expense of more complicated system. The IMA to some is not even considered a true hybrid which allows either electric or gas operation independently. What IMA had going for it is it could be adopted to other Honda engines, but even that made less sense (the Accord V6 hybrid).

It took awhile but Honda actually came up with a great "real" two-motor hybrid system used on the two new Accord Hybrids. Reviews and mileage have been great, the system is some ways even better than the current Toyota's current hybrid tech.

Toyota really put alot of money and capital into their hybrid system. They designed, developed, and built their own hybrids system (including the motors and integrated the batteries). They innovated beyond the original TRW patents, and developed their own electronics and S/W. EE times reverse engineered a Prius a few years ago and the amount of microprocessors and controllers they use is pretty amazing. Bob Lutz used to complain that GM analyst did their BOM approach and said Toyota was selling Prius's at a loss, something that Toyota sorta proved wrong. Toyota proved if you made a efficient hybrid that although was niche in looks/design, it could be highly successful. Volume production eventually brought the price down dramatically.

The bad, good, and maybe bad news for Honda is they screwed up their long term hybrid roadmap with sticking with IMA, they finally developed a superior hybrid drive-train (current Accord hybrid). The question now is will the market care? Since the Prius is now a household name so much so that Toyota's bread and butter Camry Hybrid can't even compete with it.

Moog-Type-S

It gets old with your typical "requotes'.

Something of substance from you would be good from time to time.
At least back up your apologist opinions. I understand it is hard considering what honda/acura have been producing.

...but hey, at least those of us who long for honda/acura to get back to their glory days have long standing valid points.....and it appears with the news out of Acura that they just might be waking up to these long standing point...and maybe do something about them

Apologists and resting on laurels got honda/acura to where they are today.

Meanwhile ideas, innovation, and the drive to compete head to head got Hyundai & Kia to their great standing today....when they used to be an absolute joke.

Hopefully honda/acura wake up and take some pages from the Hyundai/Kia strategy book.

Legend2TL

Its was already old with your rhetoric years ago.

Your opinion and bias is also known.

I pointed out that some things are going well at Honda and some things are not. Also backed it up with sales figures and my opinion of what failed Honda's hybrid approach.

However it's all Honda/Acura doom and gloom to you 24/7. You're not a douchbag (as others thought of you in another News thread), you're just ignorant of facts and reality, and biased. I point out the good, bad and ugly with any manufacturer, and my postings prove it. Something you cannot say.

Oh and genius you, Charlie Baker and others knew Acura was in trouble long ago. That's probably why he's a executive director at GM today.


Next time, try using some substance in a posting.

Moog-Type-S

Nice try. Again it would be nice if you mixed in something of substance from time to time.
Revisionist history from the apologist. Nothing new here.

As I said there are things going very right at Honda...I mentioned the models.
Charlie Baker is a like me.

You sound like an echo chamber repeating my posts.