Cog Neuro Sci

You've finally fessed up. Reread your post. If you can actually do it without letting your Ego interfere, then you will realize that your post describes your true SELF perfectly. Interesting how at the unconscious level the brain can turn the viewing lens inward but direct it outward at the conscious level.

mrdeeno, I am going to print out many of your posts from this and the other thread that was closed and distribute them to my colleagues. You will be immortalized as an exemplar of "myopic IQ megalomania" or in colloquialism "a complete asswipe."

Remember, dumb is dumb but dumb doesn't know it.

Cog Neuro Sci

First, the post count matters in what intellectually reasonable way? Yahtzee.

Second, every single person in this thread can go to the other thread that was closed and review your comments and my comments and come to the same conclusion that everyone in that other thread came to. That YOU started the personal attacks and not-so-subtle innuendo. Some of the other people were just trying to be polite to your ascerbic behavior. And YOU KNOW THIS. Yet you continue to purposefully obfuscate the truth, which is also your nature. Checkmate.

mrdeeno, I'm curious, what is your definition of low character? Does it involve an aspect of dumb and/or an aspect of conniving? Mousetrap.

phile

@ you getting reported

Anyways, yes it's tempting. But if you continue, it'll just keep going and going (until someone gets banned ), or worse, the thread gets locked. Please think of the children.

Cog Neuro Sci

Yes, I agree mrdeeno's a megalomaniac (everyone knows this including me and I didn't even have to review his 2000 posts) but I don't think he needs to be banned. I think the mods should just require him to redo kindergarten college.

mrdeeno

Aiight, he's not worth it.

But I DO have to point out that he's taking my sarcastic comments seriously, which makes it even funnier

mrdeeno

dude, no way! I get to be a celeb!


ALL SHALL BOW DOWN TO ME!!!

Cog Neuro Sci

Of course I reported you to the mods, because what you did over there is unacceptable. You and everyone else there recognizes that. The thread, although locked, is still there and anyone here can go and see for himself. The conclusion will be unanimous.

I think the continuing problem for you, mrdeeno, is that earlier you assumed I was just another idiot but now you realize definitively the pecking order of where my cognitive abilities are relative to yours. I have accused you of unfounded bluff and fluff arrogance, and even you understand this to be true of yourself. Because it is a fact that I am smarter than you, which you now realize, I can then reassure you that my responses to you (and Steve) are objective and justified and have nothing to do with my Ego. Yes, I may have an Ego, but I haven't subjected you to it and I haven't used it in inappropriate ways. I have merely subjected you to objective truth.

I'm enjoying this thread a lot because I can tell the moderator knows your ways very well. I'm here to get some good information and have some friendly conversation without any ulterior motives. I'm not here to get subjected to your Nissan fanboi nature and vested interests, which you clearly know you possess.

mrdeeno

Guess what time it is...


it's beer fucken thirty!

vishnus11

sooooo... I hear Honda's coming out with a new V6/V8...

iNteGraz92

you don't say?

GreenMonster

So if it's so easy for chevy to do that with an ancient pushrod design, then how come Honda can't do the same ?? One would think that honda could do better then chevy at least when it comes to engine design Gotta be a reason for it.

So why does honda tune their engines so that max hp is at a very high RPM and tradeoff low end torque ??

GreenMonster

I would have just said "HP sells cars, but torque wins races", and call it a day

I've seen people be taking in by the lawn mover hp wars, where they buy the biggest hp engine they can find, but don't seem to even think if there is any difference in the usable torque band...

Hopefully with honda's newly developed v6/v8 engines, we'll start to see an increase in displacement AND torque...

EDIT: I've always noted that BMW's seem to be biased towards torque rather then hp... the opposite of honda's fixation with hp rather then torque.

mrdeeno

I guess it's the same reason some comapnies stick to turbo/supercharging (audi, vw) and others focus on fuel efficiency or value....just company habits.

Most of their engines have sufficient torque/hp in real world normal driving conditions.

mrdeeno

techincally, I think honda CAN do the same...but it's all those patents and whatever that deter a company from risking doing something a little too similar and having to scratch a design after all the R&D investment.

Another thing to think about is that these companies have different goals and strategies. One company try to be a HP/Torque/Displacement king, while another tries to be the most technologically advanced, even if there may not be real world differences.

OT: Ahhh, beer was good. What time is it now? Quarter 'til sleep!

Cog Neuro Sci

I read that the C6 Corvette LS2 engine makes a lot of torque at below 3000 rpm and cruises at highway speeds at very low rpm to get 28 mpg. So even though carmakers have to continue on the fuel efficiency technological end (and Honda has been a leader here since the 90's), the LS2 isn't achieving its high mileage through technology but rather low cruising rpm. Even Honda's high sprung engines can achieve high mileage if Honda puts in a super tall final gear. The '92 Civic Si was ahead of its competitors at the time with 36 mpg (as well as HP) while cruising at around 3000 rpm. The super fuel efficient '92 Civic VX had super tall gearing. The TSX cruises at much higher than 3000 rpm and gets lower hwy mpg. My car cruises at 70 mph at 3750 rpm in 6th gear and gets terrible mileage. Sometimes I wish they had stretched the 6th gear or put in a 7th gear. Still, the fun factor of my car is pretty high up there.




It seems Honda has been obsessed with pushing NA engine technology for the last 15 years. Magazines have written about this. Honda's been so defiant and insistent on achieving more with less that it took them all the way until '94 to give the Accord a V6. I remember all the commotion back then and pressure on Honda to finally give the Accord something more than an inline 4. Remember, the Prelude never even got a V6.

I remember thinking in the early 90's, with Honda engine technology being superior, how would the other carmakers, especially American carmakers, compete against Honda. Well we now know the answer is to increase HP by adding displacement or FI. Almost the entire industry except for Honda has jumped on this bandwagon. Even Mazda has turbocharged its MZR inline-4 and inserted it across the lineup in the Mazdaspeed 6, Mazdaspeed 4, and CX7.

So what's Honda doing? I think they're just biding their time patiently BECAUSE they can afford to do it. However, I sense Honda understands the HP war isn't going to end any time soon and will in fact get even worse and that things aren't the same as they were back in the 90's. This time, the rest of the industry has found an effective crack or niche. Problem for the rest of the industry is increasing displacement and employing FI isn't really about technology; if they can use that, so can Honda. One indication that Honda realizes the stakes are different this time around is they are finally using FI and a V8 seems like a certainty. But even though Honda will probably bring out a V8, I bet they will keep the displacement a little bit lower than competitors (and a lot lower than the American companies). I predict Hondas will soon have HP at the top of each class while appeasing their engineering Ego by achieving it with less displacement. Why do I think Honda is finally going to jump into the HP game? Not because of Nissan but because of Toyota. Honda is absolutely obsessed with the unstoppable Toyota machine. To Honda, Toyota is the evil empire and Honda will not and can not let Toyota get any farther away.

GreenMonster

I can see the "doing more w/ less" philosophy at work... Like you said, honda resisted the jump to a v6 in the accord back in the 90's, and it looks like the same forces were at work that discouraged honda developing V8's (for street legal vehicles) until now...

I kinda like the idea of a small displacement v8.... The ridgeline will need a v8 eventually anyways, so developing a v8 makes sense.

Oh, and on the toyota front, maybe the rumors of a "new" supra might push honda development of these new v6/v8 engines further...

Oh, and for those of you who didn't know, Soichiro Honda used to work for Toyota

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda#Company_history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soichiro_Honda

MaximaPower

really? why do u think toyota jumped in the HP game?
it's bcus of nissan...i also thought toyo was the one that said they weren't going to get in the hp war

btw, i think its a lil too late for honda to catch toyo

Cog Neuro Sci

I agree with you pretty much here, but remember that the American carmakers and Nissan have already upped their HP for a while. Honda just sat back for the last 5 years, refining what they got and increasing HP incrementally. I think it's only after Toyota appears to be going after HP that Honda has also decided to do the same. I still think that if Toyota didn't decide to do it, Honda would still be holding back despite what Nissan is doing.

In my gut, I feel it may be too late for Honda to catch Toyota, but that's how it always is for the tiny little human brain. Precedence allows my thinking to go beyond my tiny little box. Precedence tells me that I grew up in the 70's and 80's thinking Russians were the devil but now we love them, that the POS Hyundai Excel that you could buy for $4000 in the 80's has turned into a bunch of cars that most people might actually be proud to own (maybe not quite yet), the Japanese economic machine actually buckling, and Chrysler and Nissan meeting disaster and rebounding (Chrysler actually twice). Even back in the late 80's, I predicted China might one day become the world's super power while others laughed at me. The truth is the US gov't is most worried about China today. Anything can happen, especially if you're super competent. If someone's going to catch Toyota, I'll put my money on Honda instead of Nissan. Nissan has too many cracks right now as a result of expanding so fast and stretching its limited resources that it may catch up to them soon (from recent articles btw, not from my ass).

vishnus11

I've actually read this whole thread (dang) so let me see if I can confuse it further...

I'll admit, from the get go, that I'm a Honda fan to begin with, but I'm also a realist. It just doesn't make sense that Honda would resort to VTEC and assorted engine engineering magic in order to get a similar amount of power, as for example Chevy, who resorts to among other things the simple trick of bumping up displacement to get more hp (for EXAMPLE, an LS2 in the 'vette).

Now I do know (and one of the reasons I will be a Honda fan for life) is that the company is 110% commited to being the most environmentally friendly auto company out there. And I think that herein lies the reasons as to why they continue to engineer and reengineer small displacement engines rather than just stick a super large V8 with uber tall gearing in an S2000 and call it a day.

I also think that another reasons is vehicle dynamics, but I will be honest and say that I'm treading on risky ground with this one, since I'm not too familiar with the size(dimensions)/weight of a F20C (00-03 S2000) vs. an LS2 as in a C6 vette...

Environment:
I remember that one of the major things that reviewers (I've been doing some research on S2ks since I'm lookin into pickin one up soon) mentioned about the S2000 when it first came out was that although it revved to a searing 9k rpm, it still qualified as a LEV (Low emissions vehicle). A quick look at the Greenhouse Gas Emissions for an 2000 S2000 (first year) on fueleconomy.gov says that it puts out around 8.1-8.2 tons of emissions a year. Comparing that to a MY 2000 Corvette, the Corvette pushes out around 8.5 tons a year. A slight difference, but for an environmentally focused company such as Honda, I think it makes all the difference. I also happened to speak to a prospective seller of an S2000 a couple of days ago, who had owned 2 Vettes previously. He said that fuel economy between the two vehicles wasn't too different, and that in his real world driving experience, the S2k had a greater edge in the city, netting him around 21mpg usually, whereas te Vette would usually get 14-15mpg. However on the hwy, he would get around 28-29mpg in the S2k, but said that he managed better still sometimes on the Vette, where he got 31mpg on a trip to Key west. It must be mentioned however, that the Vette kinda "cheats" when it comes to city mpg, because it forces you from 1st to 4th due to the "skip-shift" feature if you don't rev high enough in 1st.

I also compared an 2004 Acura TL (auto) to a 2004 Infiniti G35 (auto) since we seemed to have a lot of the Nissan gang rootin for the hometeam on this thread! Turn out that the a TL puts out approx 7.9 tons in GG emissions whereas the G35 puts out 9.3 tons. That seems like a much more significant difference to me. Gas mileage also seems to be markedly superior for the TL in both city and hwy.

Dynamics
I've done some rough preliminary research on this and from what I've read, I gathered two things. A fully dressed F20C weighs approximately 150lbs less than a fully dressed LS1 and although both might have the same height, the LS1 is significantly wider. I know Honda wanted a 50/50 distribution on the S2k, and thus mounted the F20C further back behind the front axle. I personally think that Honda would rather resort to a smaller engine such as the F20c so that they could place it further back and also not have it weigh as much. Again coming back to my conversation witht the owner of the S2k who previosuly owned 2 vettes, he said that although the vette would stick like glue, it never possessed the same nimbleness and light footed feel of the s2k. He also commented that throtte response on the s2k (at least at high rpms) was a touch mroe responsive.

I have yet to compare the VQ35 and the J32, but I wouldn't be surprised if the case was the same with those two.

I guess in conclusion, I've succeeded in confusing the thread further and even confusing myself. Hopefully, the ^ is somewhat useful, because I really don't/can't believe that Honda would engineer and re-engineer a smaller displacement engine, if bumping up the displacement and or adding cylinders (easier solutions) would satisfy their targets.

Cog Neuro Sci

I read an article a few years ago about Honda's obsession with the development of superior engineeering. For an NA engine of any given displacement, they wanted to develop technologies to push the envelope in terms of HP, mpg, rpm. reliability, emissions, including the development of new materials. The article said this drive for perfection was both a positive and a negative, the latter because it could take attention and resources away from other areas. Honda's thinking was that if you produce superior engineering and simply focus on that, people would buy.

y2kardell

iTrader: (1)

Honda/Acura knows what they are doing. They maximize the potential of their engines so therefore do not necessarily need to shoot for a bigger displacement. In todays world, with all the technological advances it is not necessary to increase displacement to get more power and reliability. Honda has obviously proven that. Most manufacturers are sold on the fact that most of the American market is attracted to tons of horsepower/torque and large displacements. Honda on the other hand builds cars and engines that they know will be reliable and very efficient and still have good power. Reliability is a big thing with them. So all you folks disagreeing with Honda to come out with a V8 engine, hate on. They are doing what they do because they are smarter than most automotive manufacturers who are just pushing power and displacement to please some customers for a short term whereas Honda is trying to build reliable engines for thier true fans and consumers that they know will return to purchase another vehicle because they were pleased with the service of the previous one. So as they say "having less sometimes is more" and if having less sometimes means more, then us TRUE Honda/Acura fans don't want to be right.

Cog Neuro Sci

Huh? So basically we want to be wrong?

y2kardell

iTrader: (1)

Cog Neuro Sci

For those that it applies to dude.

Cog Neuro Sci

So you mean in response to the expression "more is always better," we want to be wrong; however, in response to the expression "having less is sometimes more," we want to be right.

y2kardell

iTrader: (1)

Cog Neuro Sci


We are on the same page now........

Cog Neuro Sci

Does this also apply to penis size when women sometimes say less is more or are they full of shit?

y2kardell

iTrader: (1)

Cog Neuro Sci

Now I think you know the answer to that one.....

oonowindoo

um.. why do i have a feeeling that the new TL or the new coupe is gonna be 300+HP and FWD again??

heyitsme

They may have accomplished that with their I-4 engines, moving ahead of the comp. in those areas, but unfortunately when it came to the sixes, there were more big dogs involved, one being BMW- m3, 3.2l, 333hp@7900rpm. And then BMW did the same damn thing with their new v10, pushed the envelope so far that it may even reach the new NSX.

oonowindoo

_________________
Agree.

S2k's I4 is the shit...
But when it comes to 6... doesnt matter I6 or V6...they are good enough to compete but not the best.

Best I6 should be E46m3 and best V6 is VQ

heyitsme

The VQ is a very sweet engine, but its still interesting Toyota comes out of nowhere with a more powerful 3.5 v6 with di on their first try. Their lead will most likely end after the intro of new G-series, but still.

Cog Neuro Sci

That M3 engine you mention IS SWEET, but there's nothing that impressive or special about the VQ. Let's not propagate myth. Let's just admit it's all about what Honda CHOOSES to do.

MaximaPower

the VQ has been awarded every year since it's been out.....u want to "admit" its all about wat honda chooses to do? IMO, they're the company that haven't done $hit


btw, i have a good feeling u're just yanking ppl's chain

samkws

honda's J30 engine has been awarded for the past couple years with both regular and hybird engines

they pick VQ because of the more usable power at lower rpm, and a silky smooth engine

and J30 wins because it still pumps out 244hp even with regular gas and efficiency and VTEC power

Cog Neuro Sci

Review some of my posts. The awards it has received are not due to engineering excellence. People, YOU NEED TO GET TO UNDERSTAND THIS. The awards are given primarily because of the VQ's enormous influence Nissan's success. In addition, there is a lot of emotion and sentiment as well behind it because Nissan came back from the brink of destruction and a large part of it was because of the widespread use of the engine. If you find this hard to believe, I will direct you to the Renesis rotary in the RX8, which won the award the first year it was out, during which Wards explicitly cited Mazda should be commended for its COURAGE to go it alone and continue to development the engine has a true alternative technology. PLEASE, Nissan fanbois, stop propagating myth.

Cog Neuro Sci

OF COURSE IT IS TRUE. It really is about what Honda chooses to do, knuckleheads. That is an objective, truthful statement that you just don't seem to want to accept. That is one of the easier factual statements one can make in this big and uncertain world. Therefore, it sounds like you are a Nissan fanboi.

Obviously, you did not do your research when you bought the Maxima. What year is your Maxima? And how do you like your billet grille? Perhaps you and mrdeeno can build a custom billet grille for his M45. That should make his M45 even more "classy."

Cog Neuro Sci

Oh man, so the guy owns an '05 Mustang now? Ok, you have to believe that I'm not trying to jump on this guy on purpose, but I hate the new Mustang with a vengeance. That is an absolutely atrocious car inside and out. The engine is fine. I would NEVER EVER buy that POS. That car has flaws and unnecessary compromises built into it on purpose from DAY ONE. Purposely engineered flaws is another reason that I simply can not take a chance on Nissan at this time. Perhaps in the near future but not at this time, no way. An accurate metaphor is that Nissan is the Chevrolet of Japanese cars. Yes.

Remember, dumb people don't just do dumb things. Dumb people do dumb things over and over and over and over.

mrdeeno

This guy says that the engine that Honda chose NOT to build is superior to anything any other company can produce for any given displacement. Kinda like virtual-mag-racing!

Then he goes on to tout his many sources from years back, but has always failed to produce a single source saying its a waste of his time and we should do our own research.

He also fails to support any of his baseless assertions with any kind of reasoning or evidence (thank GOD you're not a lawyer!), but likes to brag about how intellectually superior he is.

Then he goes on to call people "knuckleheads" and makes personal attacks and calls people who don't drive honda's "fanboys". And he has the gall to tell us that OUR egos are too big?!?

and he reports ME to the mods?!?

This is just TOO funny!

Cog Neuro Sci

Here we go again. Your words are always ego versus ego. My words are always about the topic, about the issue itself. Indeed, 99.9999999% of the world's population does not live by this tenet, including all fields of science. Still, the scientific process of discovering truth and reality is worthy; it is the PEOPLE who screw things up. However, science is the only process I know that is self-correcting, regardless of how screwed up the people behind it are.

Your play on words, mrdeeno, is cliche. You sound like a typical humanities/pre-law major, although it appears you are actually a dime a dozen engineer. Still the semantics game is pervasive in all domains. I am a master of cutting through that, btw, as you already know. You also know I NEVER play semantics. Your wordplay is at such a mundane level to me but I realize how you can influence and manipulate young and uneducated fanbois.

Your comment about Honda engines that don't exist. Uh, they do exist, just not for the cars you were in the market for. Bingo. The production V8 isn't out yet but the Formula 1 V8 engine is producing the most HP. Precedence shows that Honda engines in whatever class outperform their competitors for any given displacement. When they don't, it is because Honda has purposely held back, e.g., SOHC instead of DOHC, etc. The great amount of precedence provides GREAT REASON to conclude that Honda engines CAN BE superior in any given class, if and when Honda chooses to do that. The amount of precedence is so great that there is REASONABLE DOUBT that another car company, especially Nissan, can match Honda's engine wizardry.

Your second comment about the mags is all about bluff and fluff, yet again. I have simply recounted the incredibly numerous independently convergent mag statements over the last 5 years. FACT. PERIOD. Because I don't have the will to spend the time to find all the sources again or I can't (my old mags are thrown away, some mags I read at the bookstore) does not weaken those statements. And here we have a great opportunity to illustrate something I stated before about you and most other people in this world. You play games about words, using semantics and attacking my WORDS. Essentially, you've acquired the risk that I'm bluffing or saying shit, and this is what has backfired on you many times already with me. Instead, what you should be doing is focusing on the validity BEHIND THOSE WORDS. I did not make up what all those mags said. I didn't make up one single thing. I simply report what I have read, and from where I stand, I am 100% correct. Now you can (1) search for those articles and when you find the truth of what I report (because you would), then you can (2) argue against them, not me. Your liking for the phrase "failed to" is actually very very common and dumb. I call these semantics "lawyer's words." The phrase is not very meaningful because it doesn't distinguish between could not, refused to but could have, or unnecessary to. Listen dude, if you continue with semantics, it will not work with me, as you should know by now. Focus on the SUBSTANCE, not semantics.

I have determined what no other scientist in the world has. If we focus on peoples' words, then our egos will want to attack, challenge, and compete against the ego (or person) behind those words. Even scientists do this all the time. Instead, what we should be focusing on is testing the validity of the IDEA behind those words. Focus on WHAT those words are trying to say independently of the language itself (the language itself is strewn with prosodic elements that include hints of our own ego), which would most probably cause your ego to focus on the WHO behind those words. This complex interaction of language and ego is a fundamental essential reason for SHITHEADS, which include 99.9999999% of the world's population. Thank you, mrdeeno, for allowing me to share some philosophy. If I were a lawyer, God and all things that are good and without vanity would thank me. Actually.

Do you realize how dumb you are? And I'm saying this from strong inferences that I'm able to make BEHIND the words you say, the truth and reality BEHIND telegraphed by your words. Independently, when I focus on the WHO behind your words, I conclude that I would like to do a BIG SMELLY SHIT ON YOUR FACE.

mrdeeno

And I'm sure Nissan COULD produce engines that would kick any Honda engine's ass in any given displacement also. and i'll just back that up using your argument...they just chose not to.

Pleez...


fanboi, don't boooother me.

fanboi, don't boooother me.

fanboi, don't boooother me.


Hey cog neuro sci, you should change your name to 1sickfanboi!