Honda: Development and Technology News
#441
Team Owner
Originally Posted by iNteGraz92
people will always complain about torque in hondas no matter what. an example is the new RL. it makes more power than the m35 yet all i hear is "it has no torque." the gs300 is even more underpowered.
FYI.. Acura only CLAIMED RL has more HP than M35.... RL is pretty slow in reality.
This is true especially for luxury sedan.... u dont want to have a Luxury sedan with 300 HP and no torque... u expect comfort and effortless acceleration in luxury sedans. and high HP with no low end torque wont give u that.
it is very uncomfortable and tiring to drive my s2k sometimes , especially when i am tired.
#442
The sizzle in the Steak
Honda could cut hybrid production
Honda could cut hybrid production
Toyota's Prius only hot model
Toyota's Prius only hot model
April 14, 2006
FREE PRESS WASHINGTON BUREAU
NEW YORK -- Slower sales of several gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles have forced Honda Motor Co. to consider cutting production.
With only Toyota Motor Corp. and Ford Motor Co. committed to a wide deployment of hybrid technology, a number of automakers at the New York International Auto Show sounded lukewarm about the prospects for future models.
After torrid sales of the Toyota Prius and Honda's Civic hybrid over the past couple of years, many automakers believed U.S. consumers would demand enough vehicles with improved fuel economy to justify the extra costs of the hybrid systems. Some even considered the loss they might take at selling hybrids below cost as an investment in environmental public relations.
But so far, no hybrid model has drawn demand similar to the Prius, which is among the most popular vehicles on the market.
"Everybody seems to think the market has softened," said Jed Connelly, senior vice president of Nissan North America, which plans to launch a hybrid version of the Altima sedan this year. "But nobody really knows. Aside from the Prius, nothing is seemingly selling at expectations."
Hybrid sales are up 37% so far this year, to 48,686 vehicles, as new models hit the market. But concerns about hybrid sales have grown as some models began to linger in dealer lots for months. According to data from J.D. Power & Associates, the average Ford Escape hybrid sold in March had sat on dealer lots for 61 days, about twice the average for a regular Escape. Hybrid Honda Accords had sat for 90 days, three times longer than typical Accord models.
Dick Colliver, executive vice president of Honda's U.S. sales arm, said the company was considering cutting production of its Accord hybrid sedan and had made no decision on building a new version of its two-seat Insight hybrid sedan. Sales of the Accord hybrid are down 51% through March compared with a year earlier.
"We've had to reevaluate our position with the vehicle," Colliver said.
While many hybrids attract customers based on fuel economy, Honda tuned the Accord hybrid for power, leaving it with mileage similar to the four-cylinder version but a price tag that can be $5,000 more than a V6 model.
"We as manufacturers and you in the press sold hybrid technology as a fuel-efficient alternative," Colliver said. "There was a consumer backlash, or maybe a push back, when we came with the V6 technology, and Toyota's experiencing the same thing.
"We have to continue to do research to determine where the best package for that hybrid technology will be in the marketplace."
Earlier this month, Ford began offering zero-percent loans to buyers of its Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner hybrids. Cisco Codina, Ford's group vice president of marketing, sales and service, said buying a hybrid had become a "less emotional, more rational" decision, and that the zero-percent deal had boosted sales.
Ford has committed to building 250,000 hybrids a year by the end of the decade, and has said it will offer hybrid variants in half its model lineup. Mark Fields, the head of Ford's North and South American business, said the company was sticking with its goal, saying, "our job is now to work down the cost curve."
"The original hybrid buyers wanted to make a statement and had the funds to make a statement," Fields said. "Most customers come into a dealership with a monthly payment in mind."
Of all automakers, Toyota remains the most ardent booster of hybrid technology. The company has set a target of selling 1 million hybrids a year by early next decade and is launching a hybrid version of the best-selling Camry sedan later this year.
Bob Carter, general manager of Toyota's Lexus luxury division, said Lexus' hybrid models have been well received by customers.
"Long term, we see hybrids as being an optional powertrain available throughout our model line," Carter said. "There is no decline in hybrid demand."
FREE PRESS WASHINGTON BUREAU
NEW YORK -- Slower sales of several gasoline-electric hybrid vehicles have forced Honda Motor Co. to consider cutting production.
With only Toyota Motor Corp. and Ford Motor Co. committed to a wide deployment of hybrid technology, a number of automakers at the New York International Auto Show sounded lukewarm about the prospects for future models.
After torrid sales of the Toyota Prius and Honda's Civic hybrid over the past couple of years, many automakers believed U.S. consumers would demand enough vehicles with improved fuel economy to justify the extra costs of the hybrid systems. Some even considered the loss they might take at selling hybrids below cost as an investment in environmental public relations.
But so far, no hybrid model has drawn demand similar to the Prius, which is among the most popular vehicles on the market.
"Everybody seems to think the market has softened," said Jed Connelly, senior vice president of Nissan North America, which plans to launch a hybrid version of the Altima sedan this year. "But nobody really knows. Aside from the Prius, nothing is seemingly selling at expectations."
Hybrid sales are up 37% so far this year, to 48,686 vehicles, as new models hit the market. But concerns about hybrid sales have grown as some models began to linger in dealer lots for months. According to data from J.D. Power & Associates, the average Ford Escape hybrid sold in March had sat on dealer lots for 61 days, about twice the average for a regular Escape. Hybrid Honda Accords had sat for 90 days, three times longer than typical Accord models.
Dick Colliver, executive vice president of Honda's U.S. sales arm, said the company was considering cutting production of its Accord hybrid sedan and had made no decision on building a new version of its two-seat Insight hybrid sedan. Sales of the Accord hybrid are down 51% through March compared with a year earlier.
"We've had to reevaluate our position with the vehicle," Colliver said.
While many hybrids attract customers based on fuel economy, Honda tuned the Accord hybrid for power, leaving it with mileage similar to the four-cylinder version but a price tag that can be $5,000 more than a V6 model.
"We as manufacturers and you in the press sold hybrid technology as a fuel-efficient alternative," Colliver said. "There was a consumer backlash, or maybe a push back, when we came with the V6 technology, and Toyota's experiencing the same thing.
"We have to continue to do research to determine where the best package for that hybrid technology will be in the marketplace."
Earlier this month, Ford began offering zero-percent loans to buyers of its Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner hybrids. Cisco Codina, Ford's group vice president of marketing, sales and service, said buying a hybrid had become a "less emotional, more rational" decision, and that the zero-percent deal had boosted sales.
Ford has committed to building 250,000 hybrids a year by the end of the decade, and has said it will offer hybrid variants in half its model lineup. Mark Fields, the head of Ford's North and South American business, said the company was sticking with its goal, saying, "our job is now to work down the cost curve."
"The original hybrid buyers wanted to make a statement and had the funds to make a statement," Fields said. "Most customers come into a dealership with a monthly payment in mind."
Of all automakers, Toyota remains the most ardent booster of hybrid technology. The company has set a target of selling 1 million hybrids a year by early next decade and is launching a hybrid version of the best-selling Camry sedan later this year.
Bob Carter, general manager of Toyota's Lexus luxury division, said Lexus' hybrid models have been well received by customers.
"Long term, we see hybrids as being an optional powertrain available throughout our model line," Carter said. "There is no decline in hybrid demand."
#443
Senior Moderator
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Better Neighborhood, Arizona
Posts: 45,641
Received 2,329 Likes
on
1,309 Posts
Interestingly enough, the Insight is still selling "well" all things considered.
#444
I'm really surprised Honda execs didn't see this coming. The hybrid Accord offers little more in terms of mileage as well as performance (which they were heavily reliant upon marketing this as a performance hybrid), yet costs quite a good deal more than the regular Accord.
#445
The sizzle in the Steak
Bring on the diesels!!!!
Cheaper to build than Hybrids...and have good fuel economy.
Cheaper to build than Hybrids...and have good fuel economy.
#446
Seriously. People are looking for higher mileage, its only logical newer diesel technology should be making its way here a little faster than whats going on now. Then hybrids should be built from that platform for realistice mileages in the 60-70mpg range etc.
#449
Originally Posted by Maximized
A great comparison would be BMW's V10 vs. the LS7. Both have similar HP figures, but the LS7 makes much more torque and more importantly more power under the curve.
That is exactly my point.
Both the BMW V10 and the LS7 have the same HP rating, but the LS7 makes more torque due to the fact of it having a higher displacement.
By the way, dont get me wrong here, I wasnt saying that Honda are geniuses or whatever, by getting insane HP figures out of a 'few' engines.
What I was trying to put across was that, by cracking out alot of HP, they will get negative bias towards their torque figures, as their engines will be compared with engines in a different class that have the same HP, but higher torque figures due to the (bigger engines).
#450
Originally Posted by smap
That is exactly my point.
Both the BMW V10 and the LS7 have the same HP rating, but the LS7 makes more torque due to the fact of it having a higher displacement.
By the way, dont get me wrong here, I wasnt saying that Honda are geniuses or whatever, by getting insane HP figures out of a 'few' engines.
What I was trying to put across was that, by cracking out alot of HP, they will get negative bias towards their torque figures, as their engines will be compared with engines in a different class that have the same HP, but higher torque figures due to the (bigger engines).
Both the BMW V10 and the LS7 have the same HP rating, but the LS7 makes more torque due to the fact of it having a higher displacement.
By the way, dont get me wrong here, I wasnt saying that Honda are geniuses or whatever, by getting insane HP figures out of a 'few' engines.
What I was trying to put across was that, by cracking out alot of HP, they will get negative bias towards their torque figures, as their engines will be compared with engines in a different class that have the same HP, but higher torque figures due to the (bigger engines).
#451
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,356
Received 5,022 Likes
on
2,670 Posts
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
You're not going to get anywhere with Maximized. See, mrdeeno isn't dumb; he simply argues to further his vested interest, which is that the M45 is the right choice. In contrast, Maximized is DUMB, PERIOD. I mean, he really is THAT dumb, as you have seen for yourself.
#453
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,356
Received 5,022 Likes
on
2,670 Posts
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Hey, you're that Armenian fuck from Glendale, right?
Again, thanks for attempting to be racist.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#454
Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
I'll say it again, its great that you can read I live in Glendale from the other thread, but the fact that you think it means I am Armenian is laughable.
Again, thanks for attempting to be racist.![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Again, thanks for attempting to be racist.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#455
The Oracle of Acurazine!
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
And again I'm not racist. You can be Armenian, white, black, or chinese. Regardless, you're a fuck.
![Repost](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/repost.gif)
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=265
now stfu please
#456
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,356
Received 5,022 Likes
on
2,670 Posts
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
And again I'm not racist. You can be Armenian, white, black, or chinese. Regardless, you're a fuck.
#457
Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
And if that were true you wouldn't feel the need to prefix the statement with Aremenian.
#458
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,356
Received 5,022 Likes
on
2,670 Posts
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Who said anything about need? I did it to piss you off, fucknut.
#459
Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
And like everything else in your life it ended in failure.
#460
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,356
Received 5,022 Likes
on
2,670 Posts
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
Then why do you keep responding to me? Sometimes people are being manipulated but they don't know it.
Manipulated...phhht you wish nancy boy.
#461
Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
Because there is nothing better to do at 12am right now, and I need to stay up all night.
Manipulated...phhht you wish nancy boy.
Manipulated...phhht you wish nancy boy.
#462
GEEZER
Originally Posted by Cog Neuro Sci
And again I'm not racist. You can be Armenian, white, black, or chinese. Regardless, you're a fuck.
![Banned](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/banned.gif)
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
#463
The guy had a point in regards to the topic at hand, but his attitude is just to extreme, and due to that, no-one is going to take him seriously, although he had a valid point.
#464
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Age: 43
Posts: 5,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by smap
That is exactly my point.
Both the BMW V10 and the LS7 have the same HP rating, but the LS7 makes more torque due to the fact of it having a higher displacement.
By the way, dont get me wrong here, I wasnt saying that Honda are geniuses or whatever, by getting insane HP figures out of a 'few' engines.
What I was trying to put across was that, by cracking out alot of HP, they will get negative bias towards their torque figures, as their engines will be compared with engines in a different class that have the same HP, but higher torque figures due to the (bigger engines).
Both the BMW V10 and the LS7 have the same HP rating, but the LS7 makes more torque due to the fact of it having a higher displacement.
By the way, dont get me wrong here, I wasnt saying that Honda are geniuses or whatever, by getting insane HP figures out of a 'few' engines.
What I was trying to put across was that, by cracking out alot of HP, they will get negative bias towards their torque figures, as their engines will be compared with engines in a different class that have the same HP, but higher torque figures due to the (bigger engines).
#465
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Age: 46
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by smap
The guy had a point in regards to the topic at hand, but his attitude is just to extreme, and due to that, no-one is going to take him seriously, although he had a valid point.
for example...
Evidence: Honda makes great engines.
Conclusion: Honda's V8 will be great.
The evidence logically supports the conclusion and makes it valid, but does not make it true. if the evidence was "Honda ONLY makes great engines", then the conclusion would be valid AND true.
Another example more to what was being discussed...
Evidence: the peaky high HP engine in the S2000 makes it a great car.
conclusion: the peaky high HP engine in the RL/TL/whatever model makes it a great car.
Again, conclusion is VALID given the evidence...but it does not make it true.
This Cock Neuro muthafucker kept pushing the point that because Honda makes great I4 and V6 engines, their V8 engines will also be superior to anything out there...which is why i call this mag racing taken to the next level...it's possible as supported by the evidence, but not necessarily true or correct.
and someone brougth it up before...just because he keeps on asserting that something is the TRUTH or VERIFIABLE doesn't necessarily make it so...especially when he doesn't bring any evidence to the table.
#466
Originally Posted by 1killercls
and you are
Who has the last laugh now idiot. ![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Banned](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/banned.gif)
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Whistle](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whistle.gif)
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
#467
The sizzle in the Steak
Originally Posted by Prius
So learn from your mistakes and improve! Give us an Accord with Civic-like economy or even better, with Fit-like economy. Leave turbocharging to those who want power.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#468
Team Owner
is he really banned?
#469
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
is he really banned?
![Yes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yes.gif)
#470
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by phile
![Yes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yes.gif)
#471
Team Owner
if it is perm then i dont see "Banned" above his SN....
#472
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Age: 45
Posts: 49,356
Received 5,022 Likes
on
2,670 Posts
Originally Posted by oonowindoo
if it is perm then i dont see "Banned" above his SN....
#475
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
he has a valid point, but just because something is valid does not mean that it is necessarily TRUE or even CORRECT.
for example...
Evidence: Honda makes great engines.
Conclusion: Honda's V8 will be great.
The evidence logically supports the conclusion and makes it valid, but does not make it true. if the evidence was "Honda ONLY makes great engines", then the conclusion would be valid AND true.
Another example more to what was being discussed...
Evidence: the peaky high HP engine in the S2000 makes it a great car.
conclusion: the peaky high HP engine in the RL/TL/whatever model makes it a great car.
Again, conclusion is VALID given the evidence...but it does not make it true.
This Cock Neuro muthafucker kept pushing the point that because Honda makes great I4 and V6 engines, their V8 engines will also be superior to anything out there...which is why i call this mag racing taken to the next level...it's possible as supported by the evidence, but not necessarily true or correct.
and someone brougth it up before...just because he keeps on asserting that something is the TRUTH or VERIFIABLE doesn't necessarily make it so...especially when he doesn't bring any evidence to the table.
for example...
Evidence: Honda makes great engines.
Conclusion: Honda's V8 will be great.
The evidence logically supports the conclusion and makes it valid, but does not make it true. if the evidence was "Honda ONLY makes great engines", then the conclusion would be valid AND true.
Another example more to what was being discussed...
Evidence: the peaky high HP engine in the S2000 makes it a great car.
conclusion: the peaky high HP engine in the RL/TL/whatever model makes it a great car.
Again, conclusion is VALID given the evidence...but it does not make it true.
This Cock Neuro muthafucker kept pushing the point that because Honda makes great I4 and V6 engines, their V8 engines will also be superior to anything out there...which is why i call this mag racing taken to the next level...it's possible as supported by the evidence, but not necessarily true or correct.
and someone brougth it up before...just because he keeps on asserting that something is the TRUTH or VERIFIABLE doesn't necessarily make it so...especially when he doesn't bring any evidence to the table.
I think I'll clear this up. I dont agree with him, when he was saying that.
A) If Honda make great I4 and V6 engines, then one can conclude that Honda would make great V8 engines.
B) The peaky HP characteristics make the S2K a great car.
The point I am campaigning is that, the few Honda engines that have the highest HP in their class, whilst also having the same torque within that class of engines, will not be compared with other engines within that class, but they will be compared with engines in a higher class, consisting of engines with the same HP, but with higher torque.
This is because the Honda engines will be judged side by side with engines that have a higher diplacement, because their HP figures are judged to be in the same class as the bigger engines of bigger displacement. So, in the end, it will always look like the Honda does not have sufficient torque against its competitors, when in fact it is not the case, as the comparisons are made between two different classes.
By no means am I the understudy of Cog Neuro. I just found one of he's arguements to be quite valid within this context.
Last edited by smap; 04-20-2006 at 09:24 PM.
#477
Senior Moderator
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Better Neighborhood, Arizona
Posts: 45,641
Received 2,329 Likes
on
1,309 Posts
Originally Posted by Prius
good point. Isn't the 2.2 CDTi in Europe one of the best diesels available?
![Yes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yes.gif)
I'd take a Honda diesel in a heartbeat.
#478
Smitty's Moral Police
While I think it's a valid point that Honda engines have decent torque for their displacement, it's not "other people" that are comparing their engines to a higher class engine. It's just that Honda doesn't offer a higher displacement in the same _vehicle_ class that competitors have high displacement engines in.
That's fine, that's their thing, but there's a reason I have a Silverado V8 and not a Honda V6...Honda doesn't even offer a gas mileage advantage here with their lower displacement V6.
To contrast, Honda motorcycles have some of the highest displacement and cylinder counts available (and, often, lead the way to increases). Go figure.
I say this as the current owner of a TL-S, NSX, and Shadow Sabre.
That's fine, that's their thing, but there's a reason I have a Silverado V8 and not a Honda V6...Honda doesn't even offer a gas mileage advantage here with their lower displacement V6.
To contrast, Honda motorcycles have some of the highest displacement and cylinder counts available (and, often, lead the way to increases). Go figure.
I say this as the current owner of a TL-S, NSX, and Shadow Sabre.
#479
Originally Posted by unlemming
To contrast, Honda motorcycles have some of the highest displacement and cylinder counts available (and, often, lead the way to increases). Go figure.