Genesis: G70 News
#401
Ex-OEM King
Same here. That said Acura does have a lot more than 3 models to sell. My guess (hope?) is that once the GV80 hits, they'll start their own dealership network.
#402
Moderator
Thread Starter
Judging from the 2 closest A/H dealers, the Acura experience is a bit better, just because it's smaller & lower volume. Neither is plagued by the typical lot lizards that accost you as soon as you put the car in P.
#403
Ex-OEM King
This is one thing that Tesla really got right. Just skip the stupid dealership model.
#404
As much as I hate the dealerships, I think a significant portion of the buying public is so car illiterate that they would not be able to complete a purchase without a salesperson leading them through the process. I doubt they could even make it halfway through the configurator before throwing up their hands in dispair.
#405
Team Owner
While i agree that Dealership can be skipped, but i also dont see Tesla's model will work for mainstream brands like Honda.... that sells 100k-130k a month vs. 15k monthly sales at Tesla.
They will have to come up with a new hybrid model... that could manage the selling part and the service part for 10x of the volume.. With the demand of test drive among other things, i dont see the # of physical dealership to disappear.. Maybe the sales model will need to be changed.
When Tesla sells 100k units a month, their service center will also need to expand.. aka dealership. The only difference is you dont buy cars there.
The overall ownership experience is still a valid argument... Tesla or not.
Also Tesla's MSRP is non-neogitable... I dont know how Honda or other brands are going to do it... cuz No one is paying their current MSRP...
They will have to come up with a new hybrid model... that could manage the selling part and the service part for 10x of the volume.. With the demand of test drive among other things, i dont see the # of physical dealership to disappear.. Maybe the sales model will need to be changed.
When Tesla sells 100k units a month, their service center will also need to expand.. aka dealership. The only difference is you dont buy cars there.
The overall ownership experience is still a valid argument... Tesla or not.
Also Tesla's MSRP is non-neogitable... I dont know how Honda or other brands are going to do it... cuz No one is paying their current MSRP...
Last edited by oonowindoo; 09-14-2020 at 05:10 PM.
#406
Team Owner
#407
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The ES (and a few others) only belong in the segment due to pricing.
The ES has managed to survive and thrive while other similar models (full size FWD/transverse) - XTS, MKS/Continental and RLX have not because the ES brings an even larger VALUE play; a full size interior for the price of a compact, whereas the XTS, etc. we're priced alongside the midsizers like the 5 Series.
The sharper, more distinctive sheet-metal and the upgrade of the base engine to the 2.5T should improve sales a bit, but likely won't be anything major as the biggest shortcoming (interior space) hasn't been addressed and won't be til the next gen model before any packages and options.
The Stinger, despite being older, a niche bodystyle (liftback) and under a mainstream brand, continues to outsell the G70, whereas the 3 Series and A4 outsell their liftback counterparts.
The ES has managed to survive and thrive while other similar models (full size FWD/transverse) - XTS, MKS/Continental and RLX have not because the ES brings an even larger VALUE play; a full size interior for the price of a compact, whereas the XTS, etc. we're priced alongside the midsizers like the 5 Series.
The sharper, more distinctive sheet-metal and the upgrade of the base engine to the 2.5T should improve sales a bit, but likely won't be anything major as the biggest shortcoming (interior space) hasn't been addressed and won't be til the next gen model before any packages and options.
The Stinger, despite being older, a niche bodystyle (liftback) and under a mainstream brand, continues to outsell the G70, whereas the 3 Series and A4 outsell their liftback counterparts.
May be that's the winning formula - big, nice interior, $40-$55k, 200hp NA 4-banger....imagine the complaints here if the Acura TLX is like that hahaha.
#408
2016 Acura TLX
I'm not sure about Canada, but at least in the US, the ES came standard with the V6, which is still decently powerful at 302hp. I believe the ES hybrid is the upgraded engine even though smaller and less powerful. 2021 added the AWD option as the ES250, which surprisingly costs the same as the FWD ES350. You can either have the more powerful V6, or AWD and the 4-cyl, but not both.
Also the ES has a lot of loyal customers and can't beat those reliability ratings. Somehow being related to the Camry and Avalon weirdly works to its favor in this instance. It's just too bad this ended up killing the GS lineup.
Also the ES has a lot of loyal customers and can't beat those reliability ratings. Somehow being related to the Camry and Avalon weirdly works to its favor in this instance. It's just too bad this ended up killing the GS lineup.
#409
Yeah, the GS was caught in no-mans land. If you care about the driving experience, you'd probably get a 5-series, and if you didn't, you'd get an ES and save a load of cash.
#410
Ex-OEM King
As much as I hate the dealerships, I think a significant portion of the buying public is so car illiterate that they would not be able to complete a purchase without a salesperson leading them through the process. I doubt they could even make it halfway through the configurator before throwing up their hands in dispair.
That has less to do with the model and more to do with the shit reliability of their cars.
#411
Team Owner
Yea for sure. Though those are slightly different cars than a regular sedan as they are hatchbacks IIRC.
I understand where you are coming from - that the ES has a different approach. While it's larger than pretty much everyone in its class, almost like the 4g TL,but the ES is significantly less powerful with almost no sportiness to it. It's pretty pricey for what you get too - $40k for a 203hp 4 banger FWD.
May be that's the winning formula - big, nice interior, $40-$55k, 200hp NA 4-banger....imagine the complaints here if the Acura TLX is like that hahaha.
I understand where you are coming from - that the ES has a different approach. While it's larger than pretty much everyone in its class, almost like the 4g TL,but the ES is significantly less powerful with almost no sportiness to it. It's pretty pricey for what you get too - $40k for a 203hp 4 banger FWD.
May be that's the winning formula - big, nice interior, $40-$55k, 200hp NA 4-banger....imagine the complaints here if the Acura TLX is like that hahaha.
#412
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Yea it's really odd how things work sometimes. Just like a lot of the RWD sports cars. Mustangs and Camaros are absolutely killing it with 70000 and 50000 sales a year. The likes of BRZ, FRS, Miata, never really got to 10000 units a year.
About the Lexus GS, in most of the reviews I've seen, they generally praise the driving dynamics of it, that it's better than most other cars in its class. I guess it was getting long in the tooth though and its engine choices are so so. But ya, the ES is absolutely destroying the GS in sales figures. It's probably more profitable too without using a unique RWD platform.
About the Lexus GS, in most of the reviews I've seen, they generally praise the driving dynamics of it, that it's better than most other cars in its class. I guess it was getting long in the tooth though and its engine choices are so so. But ya, the ES is absolutely destroying the GS in sales figures. It's probably more profitable too without using a unique RWD platform.
#413
Team Owner
It all comes down to price... ES is cheaper... and similar size... similar features...
RWD, performance and driving dynamic mean little to most of the Lexus's customers.
RWD, performance and driving dynamic mean little to most of the Lexus's customers.
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00TL-P3.2 (09-16-2020)
#414
Senior Moderator
#415
Team Owner
why? because
Not to mention most of the ES i saw had halogen headlights before they made LED standard
Cheap
Not to mention most of the ES i saw had halogen headlights before they made LED standard
Cheap
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honda_nut (09-16-2020)
#416
Senior Moderator
#417
Senior Moderator
I'll admit for every Stinger I pass or see, I snicker that it's a poser car.
"Can't afford the real thing...suckas."
"Can't afford the real thing...suckas."
#418
Senior Moderator
I'm sorry. That was awful of me. But, I'm not lying.
#419
Team Owner
You are only driving a Audi... what would happen to you when you buy a Porsche
#420
Senior Moderator
#421
Team Owner
But i gotta say the new ES looks pretty damn good.. if i didnt know any better, i would have thought it is a good sporty car
#423
Team Owner
I think the new ES F Sport looks a lot better than TLX
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honda_nut (09-17-2020)
#424
Yea for sure. Though those are slightly different cars than a regular sedan as they are hatchbacks II understand where you are coming from - that the ES has a different approach. While it's larger than pretty much everyone in its class, almost like the 4g TL,but the ES is significantly less powerful with almost no sportiness to it. It's pretty pricey for what you get too - $40k for a 203hp 4 banger FWD.
May be that's the winning formula - big, nice interior, $40-$55k, 200hp NA 4-banger....imagine the complaints here if the Acura TLX is like that hahaha.
May be that's the winning formula - big, nice interior, $40-$55k, 200hp NA 4-banger....imagine the complaints here if the Acura TLX is like that hahaha.
Only full-size FWD in its price segment, and Lexus execs have stated in the past that there isn't much cross-shopping among their models.
Even with the ES alongside it in the Lexus stable, the GS used to sell pretty well - securely in the 3rd spot after the RWD Germans.
But increased competition (Genesis, Cadillac, etc.) ate away at GS sales with other buyers opting for something German which had more power and the latest tech.
Even more so for models which are sold under the lux brand in some markets and the mainstream brand in others.
Is the GT-R a poser car?
It's branded a Nissan despite being a good bit more expensive than any Infiniti model.
In fact, one can say that it would have been a poser move if Nissan had rebadged it as an Infiniti in the markets Infiniti is available, doing away with the history of the model as a Nissan.
Last edited by YEH; 09-17-2020 at 02:04 PM.
#425
What also hurts the RWD Lexus models is not having a strong domestic market, so pretty much counting on US sales to justify their existence.
#426
Senior Moderator
The majority of drivers are not enthusiasts, which is why the ES has long outsold the TL/TLX.
This.
Only full-size FWD in its price segment, and Lexus execs have stated in the past that there isn't much cross-shopping among their models.
Even with the ES alongside it in the Lexus stable, the GS used to sell pretty well - securely in the 3rd spot after the RWD Germans.
But increased competition (Genesis, Cadillac, etc.) ate away at GS sales with other buyers opting for something German which had more power and the latest tech.
The real poser vehicles are the "luxury" models which share much of their FWD underpinnings with their mainstream counterparts (ES-Avalon, RX-Highlander, etc.), with the lux model usually getting updated AFTER the mainstream model (Highlander got updated, the RX is still waiting for its update).
Even more so for models which are sold under the lux brand in some markets and the mainstream brand in others.
Is the GT-R a poser car?
It's branded a Nissan despite being a good bit more expensive than any Infiniti model.
In fact, one can say that it would have been a poser move if Nissan had rebadged it as an Infiniti in the markets Infiniti is available, doing away with the history of the model as a Nissan.
This.
Only full-size FWD in its price segment, and Lexus execs have stated in the past that there isn't much cross-shopping among their models.
Even with the ES alongside it in the Lexus stable, the GS used to sell pretty well - securely in the 3rd spot after the RWD Germans.
But increased competition (Genesis, Cadillac, etc.) ate away at GS sales with other buyers opting for something German which had more power and the latest tech.
The real poser vehicles are the "luxury" models which share much of their FWD underpinnings with their mainstream counterparts (ES-Avalon, RX-Highlander, etc.), with the lux model usually getting updated AFTER the mainstream model (Highlander got updated, the RX is still waiting for its update).
Even more so for models which are sold under the lux brand in some markets and the mainstream brand in others.
Is the GT-R a poser car?
It's branded a Nissan despite being a good bit more expensive than any Infiniti model.
In fact, one can say that it would have been a poser move if Nissan had rebadged it as an Infiniti in the markets Infiniti is available, doing away with the history of the model as a Nissan.
#427
^ Need to stop wading in the kiddie pool.
C'mon, the deep end isn't so scary...
C'mon, the deep end isn't so scary...
#428
ES hybrids have 10K sales in 2019. I am sure if TLX 4cylinder hybrid is introduced it will take few thousands sales away.
even base TLX with 17inch rims looks better. Lexus F Sport defeat the purpose of luxury ride.
https://pressroom.lexus.com/toyota-m...ear-end-sales/
even base TLX with 17inch rims looks better. Lexus F Sport defeat the purpose of luxury ride.
https://pressroom.lexus.com/toyota-m...ear-end-sales/
#429
Ex-OEM King
^ Shut up.
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#430
Team Owner
TLX 4 cylinder hybrid? are you making shit up again?
Vaporware much?
Vaporware much?
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04WDPSeDaN (09-18-2020)
#431
Senior Moderator
Let's first GET a TLX 4-banger hybrid and then talk about possible sales?
#432
I'm so grateful for the ignore function.
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#433
2016 Acura TLX
This gen ES is a very attractive car imo. Probably a much better built car than the TLX too. I briefly checked one out when I was seriously considering a GS before they decided to discontinue it. Couldn't get over the ES stigma, so I passed. My cousin has a 2004 ES330 that's been in the family since new. Drove it a couple years ago with around 200k miles, and it still floated over bumps with absolutely zero rattles. The same can't be said for either of our current Acura's even when they were new. Hell, even the leather on that ES was soft and supple, basically like new.
Last edited by honda_nut; 09-17-2020 at 06:19 PM.
#434
iWhine S/C 6MT TL
iTrader: (1)
#435
Race Director
#436
2016 Acura TLX
Whatever happened to that dude with the C6 vette that everyone hated lol. Haven't seen him in ages.
I've never posted much but always browsed car talk for entertainment during work hours. Quite a few characters around.
I've never posted much but always browsed car talk for entertainment during work hours. Quite a few characters around.
#437
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The ES works so well for Lexus lol. They make it super soft so things are less likely to rattle too, giving it a more premium feel at the same time.
#438
Team Owner
350Z sold pretty well... for a few years... The 370Z is too old... I got my G37 in my last year of college and that is how old 370Z is
#439
#440
Yea the 370z got close to it. I think it was like less than $30k for 330hp+ but it never sold as well as the pony cars. The base pony cars with the 4-banger engines probably make up the bulk of the sales, along with fleet sales. And it goes back to the point that enthusiasts represent too little of the market.
The underpowered Toyota 86 starts at $27k despite development costs being shared with Subie.
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iforyou (09-22-2020)