Ethanol: News and Discussion Thread

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Old 07-24-2007, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
No they arent. Not in the immediate future. Trains?? There are no trains here. I typically have to fill up daily. FOR WORK. i cant take any other form of transportation. I need a car/truck. I also need to be able to fill up and get back on the road. And i can bet the vast majority of people who drive would be unwilling to have to "Wait" to fill up or have to take the "Train" Oh, and Where is this Electricity coming from to charge your batteries???
Nobody said they would work for everybody, just most people with normal city type commutes.

Not to pick on you or anything, but the "nobody's taking MY gas-guzzler away" mentality is precisely why we're in the situation we find ourselves. Sooner or later it wont fly anymore.
Old 07-24-2007, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
Nobody said they would work for everybody, just most people with normal city type commutes.

Not to pick on you or anything, but the "nobody's taking MY gas-guzzler away" mentality is precisely why we're in the situation we find ourselves. Sooner or later it wont fly anymore.
I never said no one was taking my (as you put it) "Gas-Guzzler" away. Electric cars arent the answer. IMHO Hydrogen will be the replacement. But for the mean time gas is here and will remain here for a while yet
Old 07-24-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
There was plenty of demand for the EV-1. Beauracracy killed it. And keep in mind that car was designed back in the mid nineties. They can make even better ones now.

Good question about the old batteries. I have no idea if they can be recycled or what kind of waste they leave behind.
Beauracracy did not kill the EV1. :ibconspiracytheorycomments:

If the EV1 had a huge demand, and people wanted them, combined with a good profit margin for GM, they would have continued to build them, and we would see a ton of elec. vehicles on the road today.

FWIW the electric battery vehicle is a dead-end. Hydrogen FTW.
Clean, renewable, abundant & cheap
Old 07-24-2007, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
No they arent. Not in the immediate future. Trains?? There are no trains here. I typically have to fill up daily. FOR WORK. i cant take any other form of transportation. I need a car/truck. I also need to be able to fill up and get back on the road. And i can bet the vast majority of people who drive would be unwilling to have to "Wait" to fill up or have to take the "Train" Oh, and Where is this Electricity coming from to charge your batteries???
you say it is not the answer. well it would fit absolutely all MY needs so if you need me, I'll be first in line. ever think that the future may lie in with multiple solutions? for those who need to haul or travel long distances hydrogen will suffice, and for commuters pure electric will thrive. I think you need to have more of an open mind, no solution is perfect or even good at the moment, so I think by jumping to conclusions on which is right and which is wrong is evidence that you aren't evaluating this situation fairly or with enough thought. I can charge my car at night when I don't use it, I only have to go 20 miles max...ever.

And if you don't want to make any concessions, then it is your right as an American to hold on tightly to the luxuries you value...so long as you can afford them. Having a large/comfortable/powerful car that runs on seemingly unlimited and easily accessed fuel is not going to last, you will eventually have to make some concessions eventually, even if that concession is parting with your $$. I wish you had as much faith in advancements in energy storage as hydrogen generation.
Old 07-24-2007, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
FWIW the electric battery vehicle is a dead-end.
I can't argue with this statement. Current lead-nickle or Li-Ion cells are not suitable for what we want to use them for. I don't see how you can throw out the entire concept because we are missing a small key. Capacitors are the holy grail solution and anyone who reads /. sees the advances science is making in this. Fast recharge, almost unlimited charge cycles. Hydrogen is not THE solution, it is A solution.

But I think the important thing is that we all agree that ethanol is not even a bad solution just a waste of food and that we support something else.
Old 07-24-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
Beauracracy did not kill the EV1. :ibconspiracytheorycomments:

FWIW the electric battery vehicle is a dead-end. Hydrogen FTW.
Clean, renewable, abundant & cheap
I think the only "conspiracy" going on here is that you guys have been deluded into thinking these flashy, million-dollar hyrodgen fuel cell prototypes will ever be relevant.

Unless they find a way to sift through the air and collect free hydrogen out of the atmosphere, hydrogen has to be produced using fossil fuels such as coal and nat-gas, causing a net energy loss and a net pollution increase. Better off just burning the coal and nat-gas.

There are renewable ways to produce hydrogen of course, but none of them can be scaled up to anywhere near relevant levels. They couldn't pull renewable way to produce commerical amounts of hydogen of their ass if their life depended on it.

Srsly, go read some articles and you'll realize hydrogen cars are pure crapola, unless they can find a way to literally "collect" hydrogen out of the atmosphere for free. That's the only way it could be decribed as "cheap" "clean" or "Renewable"

But they can't do it.
Old 07-24-2007, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon24pdx
I think the only "conspiracy" going on here is that you guys have been deluded into thinking these flashy, million-dollar hyrodgen fuel cell prototypes will ever be relevant.

Unless they find a way to sift through the air and collect free hydrogen out of the atmosphere, hydrogen has to be produced using fossil fuels such as coal and nat-gas, causing a net energy loss and a net pollution increase. Better off just burning the coal and nat-gas.

There are renewable ways to produce hydrogen of course, but none of them can be scaled up to anywhere near relevant levels. They couldn't pull renewable way to produce commerical amounts of hydogen of their ass if their life depended on it.

Srsly, go read some articles and you'll realize hydrogen cars are pure crapola, unless they can find a way to literally "collect" hydrogen out of the atmosphere for free. That's the only way it could be decribed as "cheap" "clean" or "Renewable"

But they can't do it.
There is zero if any hydrogen infrastructure for automobiles at this point.
Why? Because there are little if any mass produced hydrogen vehicles on the road. When hydrogen comes to the masses in vehicles that workable and meet the market demands, then the infrastructure will come.

As far as renewable ways to produce hydrogen, you don't think that solar & zinc powder is a viable option for producing hydrogen?!?!
Old 07-24-2007, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Python2121
you say it is not the answer. well it would fit absolutely all MY needs so if you need me, I'll be first in line. ever think that the future may lie in with multiple solutions? for those who need to haul or travel long distances hydrogen will suffice, and for commuters pure electric will thrive. I think you need to have more of an open mind, no solution is perfect or even good at the moment, so I think by jumping to conclusions on which is right and which is wrong is evidence that you aren't evaluating this situation fairly or with enough thought. I can charge my car at night when I don't use it, I only have to go 20 miles max...ever.

And if you don't want to make any concessions, then it is your right as an American to hold on tightly to the luxuries you value...so long as you can afford them. Having a large/comfortable/powerful car that runs on seemingly unlimited and easily accessed fuel is not going to last, you will eventually have to make some concessions eventually, even if that concession is parting with your $$. I wish you had as much faith in advancements in energy storage as hydrogen generation.
And ill ask again, where is that energy going to come from to start recharging cars?? Hydrogen has the potential to be a much cleaner better choice. But like i stated before, nothing is in the short term for a solution, Gas is here for some time to come.
Old 07-25-2007, 08:04 AM
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more oil and new/updated Refineries to bridge the gap......people say they want USA energy independent BUT block new oil drilling and refineries??? Flame Away! Not coming back to this thread...
Old 07-25-2007, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
And ill ask again, where is that energy going to come from to start recharging cars?? Hydrogen has the potential to be a much cleaner better choice. But like i stated before, nothing is in the short term for a solution, Gas is here for some time to come.
The energy? The grid. And where does that energy come from? Well, that is something we need to figure out for both hydrogen and electric, so in that respect they both look shitty. Nuclear is an option but fuel isn't exactly abundant. I wish there were windmills everywhere, but people are so against their "views" getting disrupted that it could take a while. Like I said, as long as we all realize that ethanol is some political BS we can get on the track to a real solution.

Last edited by Python2121; 07-25-2007 at 08:29 AM.
Old 08-19-2007, 07:02 PM
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A Sweeter Way to Go Green

How Brazil is transforming sugar cane into ethanol that it claims is a cleaner, cheaper and more sustainable source of fuel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20341334/site/newsweek/
Old 08-20-2007, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Fibonacci
How Brazil is transforming sugar cane into ethanol that it claims is a cleaner, cheaper and more sustainable source of fuel.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20341334/site/newsweek/
But that argument rests on a blind spot. If the United States decided to thwart its farm lobby and import Brazilian sugar cane-based ethanol to meet President Bush's ambitious biofuel plan (substituting 15 percent of the country's gasoline by 2017), Brazil would need to sow cane on 20 million additional hectacres.

Anyone know about this plan?
Old 08-21-2007, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Python2121
Anyone know about this plan?

Say, bye-bye to teh Amazon Rainforest.
Old 08-21-2007, 06:13 PM
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The "genius" of George W. Bush.
Old 11-19-2007, 06:17 PM
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Ethanol Bust Makes Loser of Bush, Gates, Archer Daniels Midland

Ethanol, the centerpiece of President George W. Bush's
plan to wean the U.S. from oil, is 2007's worst energy investment.
The corn-based fuel tumbled 57 percent from last year's
record of $4.33 a gallon and drove crop prices to a 10-year
high. Production in the U.S. tripled after Morgan Stanley, hedge
fund firm D.E. Shaw & Co. and venture capitalist Vinod Khosla
helped finance a building boom.
Even worse for investors and the Bush administration,
energy experts contend ethanol isn't reducing oil demand.
Scientists at Cornell University say making the fuel uses more
energy than it creates, while the National Research Council
warns ethanol production threatens scarce water supplies.
As oil nears $100 a barrel, ethanol markets are so
depressed that distilleries are shutting from Iowa to Germany.
An investor who put $10 million into ethanol on Dec. 31 now has
$7.5 million, a loss of 25 percent. Florida and Georgia have
banned sales during the summer, when the fuel may evaporate and
create smog.
``I don't anticipate any sort of immediate rebound,'' says
Barry Frazier, the 50-year-old president of Center Ethanol LLC
in suburban St. Louis. ``It's going to take 12 to 24 months
before the market is able to absorb the large amount of new
capacity.''
The biggest producer, Archer Daniels Midland Co., may
resort to exporting ethanol. Pacific Ethanol Inc., backed by
Microsoft Corp. co-founder Bill Gates, dropped 63 percent in New
York trading this year as profits collapsed. Record oil prices,
which make blending of ethanol with gasoline more profitable for
refiners, haven't stemmed the declines.

Bad Recipe

``Ethanol companies are near break-even at best,'' says Ron
Oster, a principal at Broadpoint Capital Inc. in Albany, New
York. ``That's not a good recipe when you have $100 oil.''
Corn has risen to $3.795 a bushel on the Chicago Board of
Trade from less than $2.50 in September 2006. Ethanol on the
exchange is little changed at $1.865 a gallon, after falling
from a peak of $4.33 in June 2006.
The Bush energy plan triggered production by mandating
increased use of so-called biofuels, such as corn-based ethanol.
The administration proposed raising output in the next 10 years
to five times the current target amount for 2012.
The U.S. Senate approved the increase and lengthened the
time frame to 2022. The federal government has 20 separate laws
and incentives to boost ethanol use, and 49 states offer
additional subsidies and supports, according to the Energy
Department in Washington.

Benefits Challenged

Scientists question the wisdom of using ethanol. Stanford
University researchers say ethanol, originally added to gasoline
in the 1970s to reduce tailpipe emissions, does nothing to
improve the environment.
``It takes more energy to produce ethanol than it actually
gives off,'' says David Pimentel, a Cornell University professor
who has studied production of the fuel for two decades.....


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=alGnF3_fgQLo
Old 11-19-2007, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
The "genius" of George W. Bush.
I'll my last post.
Old 01-15-2008, 04:33 PM
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Ethanol Plant's Bust Offers a Preview to Bond Buyers

Commentary by Joe Mysak Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) --

Grinding stuff, burning stuff and cooking stuff in order to make something else is a lot harder than you think.

This was the big lesson to be learned in the 1980s, when so many municipal bond-financed waste-to-energy power plants went bust, and it was also the lesson to be learned from the 1990s, when a bunch of municipal bond-financed waste-paper ``de- inking'' mills went broke.

It is, perhaps, one of the eternal verities of the municipal bond market.

There is a corollary, too: whatever you're grinding, burning, or cooking, make sure to toss in wads of cash, and have plenty in reserve to feed the boilers.

The latest cautionary tale to prove these rules comes from Mead, Nebraska, site of the first ``closed loop'' ethanol plant.

In December 2006, Saunders County, Nebraska, sold $45.7 million in tax-exempt industrial development revenue bonds and $4.7 million in taxable revenue bonds to help finance a new plant that would produce 20 million gallons of ethanol a year. The plant opened in June, and in November of 2007 entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

From cradle to grave in one year? Quite an accomplishment!.....
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aIDZ.W2jAOOw
Old 01-15-2008, 05:56 PM
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:27 PM
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Now if someone bought the plant on the cheap and converted it to make biodiesel they'd be sitting pretty next year when a bunch of new diesel cars enter the market.
Old 11-23-2008, 06:56 AM
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Problems Plague U.S. Flex-Fuel Fleet

Most Government-Bought Vehicles Still Use Standard Gas

The federal government has invested billions of dollars over the past 16 years, building a fleet of 112,000 alternative-fuel vehicles to serve as a model for a national movement away from fossil fuels.

But the costly effort to put more workers into vehicles powered by ethanol and other fuel alternatives has been fraught with problems, many of them caused by buying vehicles before fuel stations were in place to support them, a Washington Post analysis of federal records shows.

"I call it the 'Field of Dreams' plan. If you buy them, they will come," said Wayne Corey, vehicle operations manager with the U.S. Postal Service. "It hasn't happened."

Under a mandate from Congress, federal agencies have gradually increased their fleets of alternative-fuel vehicles, a majority of them "flex-fuel," capable of running on either gasoline or ethanol-based E85 fuel. But many of the vehicles were sent to locations hundreds of miles from any alternative fueling sites, the analysis shows.

As a result, more than 92 percent of the fuel used in the government's alternative-fuel fleet continues to be standard gasoline. A 2005 law -- meant to align the vehicles with alternative-fuel stations -- now requires agencies to seek waivers when a vehicle is more than five miles or 15 minutes from an ethanol pump.

The latest generations of alternative vehicles have compounded the problem. Often, the vehicles come only with larger engines than the ones they replaced in the fleet. Consequently, the federal program -- known as EPAct -- has sometimes increased gasoline consumption and emission rates, the opposite of what was intended.

The EPAct program offers a cautionary tale as President-elect Barack Obama promises to kill dependence on foreign oil and revive the economy by retooling for the green revolution, experts say.....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2300249&s_pos=
Old 11-23-2008, 08:43 AM
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Unlike the blame Bush is getting for his "green" ideas gone bad, Obama's bad "green" ideas (and there'll be plenty advocated) will likely get a pass in the form of "but he tried so do something about"
Old 11-23-2008, 10:25 AM
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Why does nobody here advocate drilling for new sources of our own oil? Hell the chinese are coming into our backyard off the coast of Cuba to get oil for themselves yet we sit around with our thumbs up our butts talking about pie-in-the-sky technologies that are decades away from being a viable replacement for oil. Oil is the lifeblood of freedom folks and its time we start taking advantage of the potentially vast supply we have of our own....
Old 11-23-2008, 02:11 PM
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/\ :werD: however if i recall hilary clinton passed an act saying we can't drill in some areas of the US which has billions of barrells of oil.

Ethanol is a waste, it's more corrosive and has less energy per unti mass then gas. the !0% of ethanol in gas wreaks havoc on both my mine and my dads bikes that are carburetored. gum's up the needles and produces a sludge. every year the dealer is rebuilding carbs and a sludge comes out of them all due to the ethanol separation from gas.

lets tap the US for oil, thats how we will relive our dependence on oil.
Old 11-23-2008, 02:17 PM
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i do use addative as a prevention too and sometimes i still have an issue.
Old 11-23-2008, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Why does nobody here advocate drilling for new sources of our own oil? Hell the chinese are coming into our backyard off the coast of Cuba to get oil for themselves yet we sit around with our thumbs up our butts talking about pie-in-the-sky technologies that are decades away from being a viable replacement for oil. Oil is the lifeblood of freedom folks and its time we start taking advantage of the potentially vast supply we have of our own....
Because I have a strong suspicion that the Chinese and others are bribing some portions of our population/leadership into being "environmentally friendly"

We have resources in our own backyard being exploited by our rivals. The oil IS BEING PUMPED. We might as well be the ones doing so!!

Old 03-17-2009, 07:59 PM
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Everyone Hates Ethanol

These days, it's routine for businesses to fail, get rescued by the government, and then continue to fail. But ethanol, which survives only because of its iron lung of subsidies and mandates, is a special case. Naturally, the industry is demanding even more government life support.

Corn ethanol producers -- led by Wesley Clark, the retired general turned chairman of a new biofuels lobbying outfit called Growth Energy -- want the Obama Administration to make their guaranteed market even larger. Recall that the 2007 energy bill requires refiners to mix 36 billion gallons into the gasoline supply by 2022. The quotas, which ratchet up each year, are arbitrary, but evidently no one in Congress wondered what might happen if the economy didn't cooperate.

Now the recession is hammering demand for gas. The Energy Information Administration notes that U.S. consumption fell nearly 7% in 2008 and expects another 2.2% drop this year. That comes as great news for President Obama, who is achieving his carbon-reduction goals even without a new carbon tax, but the irony is that the ethanol industry is part of the wider collateral damage.....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716798764436701.html
Old 03-17-2009, 08:19 PM
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Fucking corn ethanol producers... the future of ethanol is not in corn, it's in non-food based products like corn cobs and corn stalks (or switchgrass)...

Wait till they figure out how to easily break down the cellulose bonds in wood scraps (sawdust, etc)...
Old 03-18-2009, 09:57 AM
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Ethanol bailout
Old 03-18-2009, 12:17 PM
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Morons
Old 03-18-2009, 01:11 PM
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FTL .... are these people even awake?

My kids know better than to put that stuff in our truck!!!!
Old 03-18-2009, 02:10 PM
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I think Biodiesel the immediate answer. we got diesel mechanics, diesel pumps and diesel semis run for millions of miles.
Soybeans which including myself(as a farmer) we produce domestically could be used to convert to BioDiesel.
for farm use i used 50/50 blend. 50% Old school diesel and 50% Bio.
my next car i'm 75-80% sure it will be a Benz E320 Bluetech diesel.

while ethanol looks cheap (like right now for E85) It's about $1.40 around here. remember you'll only get 66-70% of the mileage vs old school gas.
personally i've had it with gas,hybrid gas, ethanol options.
regular gas- i don't mind but when it goes up to 3.50 or 4 bucks it sucks
hybrid electric-the 8-10k paid for the electric option is it really worth it when gas is around 2 bucks a gallon?
ethanol- this was a bad idea from the word go. you get less mileage. it takes 1 regular gallon of gas to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. plus a lot of ethanol plants around us is going down.

personally i won't run 10% Ethanol blend unless i have to. there's still a few stations around here that run the old stuff and that's usually where i go.
Old 03-18-2009, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by majin ssj eric
Why does nobody here advocate drilling for new sources of our own oil? Hell the chinese are coming into our backyard off the coast of Cuba to get oil for themselves yet we sit around with our thumbs up our butts talking about pie-in-the-sky technologies that are decades away from being a viable replacement for oil. Oil is the lifeblood of freedom folks and its time we start taking advantage of the potentially vast supply we have of our own....
cause you got you got turds like Speaker Pelosi who won't allow oil companies to drill in Alaska Natural Wildlife Reserve, and Offshore(in certain spots). Now i'm for the animals and wildlife but if they(the oil companies) can drill in a environmentally friendly way the american people will thank the oil companies for cheap oil. oil works on a supply and demand system. when gas last summer was at 4 bucks a gallon BIG demand for it and not much of it was being offered. so basically it's not how badly do you want it it's . HOW MUCH WILL YOU PAY FOR IT.
by drilling for more oil it will put more into the system.
Old 03-18-2009, 04:03 PM
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Old 03-18-2009, 04:12 PM
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Stupid.
Old 03-18-2009, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenMonster
Fucking corn ethanol producers... the future of ethanol is not in corn, it's in non-food based products like corn cobs and corn stalks (or switchgrass)...

Wait till they figure out how to easily break down the cellulose bonds in wood scraps (sawdust, etc)...
corn based ethanol is so 1st gen.

2nd gen. is about lignocellulosic based biofuels derived from the stuff you mentioned and more.
Old 03-18-2009, 08:30 PM
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They need to just let this shit die.
Old 03-18-2009, 11:59 PM
  #117  
socialism= the suck
 
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Originally Posted by mr5parkle
corn based ethanol is so 1st gen.

2nd gen. is about lignocellulosic based biofuels derived from the stuff you mentioned and more.
on a related note: Dad and I farm about 1000 acres of corn and beans. ethanol plants are starting to offer a decent price for like corn cobs,corn husk. Dad and I are more than likely gonna set up the combine for next harvest season so it collects the cobs, and husk and then goes into a cart so we can sell it to the ethanol plant. before it it would go onto the ground to rot as natural neutrients. but if their willing to pay us for it we'll usualize the whole plant except for the about 5-6 inches above the ground and roots.
Old 03-19-2009, 12:07 AM
  #118  
socialism= the suck
 
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Originally Posted by GreenMonster
Fucking corn ethanol producers... the future of ethanol is not in corn, it's in non-food based products like corn cobs and corn stalks (or switchgrass)...

Wait till they figure out how to easily break down the cellulose bonds in wood scraps (sawdust, etc)...
-i agree with 1/2 this statement. ethanol a joke and I'm a corn producer I don't even use it in my car.
- BioDiesel (which comes from Soybeans)(see my post above) that's why i feel Bio the way of the future. just trying to get america to switch from gas to diesel is gonna be hard. they think diesels like the 60s and 70s diesels. Loud, slow, rattle, hard starting in the winter just crude. diesels have came as far if not farther than gas engines in the same amount of time.
however car makers are just as much at fault: in cars there aren't a lot of options for diesel:VW,BMW just starte their program in America, Benz. but yet you go to Europe it's the opposite almost everyone runs diesel and gas cars are hard to find.
Old 04-20-2009, 06:35 PM
  #119  
I feel the need...
 
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The Ethanol Bubble Pops in Iowa

More evidence the fuel makes little economic sense.

In September, ethanol giant VeraSun Energy opened a refinery on the outskirts of this eastern Iowa community. Among the largest biofuels facilities in the country, the Dyersville plant could process 39 million bushels of corn and produce 110 million gallons of ethanol annually. VeraSun boasted the plant could run 24 hours a day, seven days a week to meet the demand for home-grown energy.

But the only thing happening 24-7 at the Dyersville plant these days is nothing at all. Its doors are shut and corn deliveries are turned away. Touring the facility recently, I saw dozens of rail cars sitting idle. They've been there through the long, bleak winter. Two months after Dyersville opened, VeraSun filed for bankruptcy, closing many of its 14 plants and laying off hundreds of employees. VeraSun lost $476 million in the third quarter last year.

A town of 4,000, Dyersville is best known as the location of the 1989 film "Field of Dreams." In the film, a voice urges Kevin Costner to create a baseball diamond in a cornfield and the ghosts of baseball past emerge from the ether to play ball. Audiences suspended disbelief as they were charmed by a story that blurred the lines between fantasy and reality.....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124000832377530477.html
Old 04-20-2009, 10:01 PM
  #120  
an asshole from florida
 
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yea cellulosic ethanol is becoming the big thing now, theres actually alot of research here at UF by some dude who holds like a shit load of patents for all that


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