Consumer Reports: Annual Results News
02-04-2004, 06:28 PM
#81
Team Owner
Originally posted by RJC RSX
they didn't say 35mpg was the epa rating, did they?
they didn't say 35mpg was the epa rating, did they?
Overall mpg: 23
City/Highway mpg: 16/35
They didn't say where the numbers came from. Maybe these are the numbers they experienced during their test. If the highway number is correct then all I can say is WOW.
03-08-2004, 11:29 PM
#82
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Consumer Reports: Detroit Beats Germany And Sweden
Consumer Reports: Detroit Beats Germany And Sweden - - - By Jim Burt - - Source: The Car Connection
The average domestic car is more reliable than the average European car, according to new rankings by Consumer Reports. It's the first time in 24 years Detroit has bested Europe.
Owners of 2003 Big Three vehicles reported an average of 18 problems per 100 vehicles. Owners of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen and other European vehicles reported an average of 20 problems per 100 vehicles. The industry average for 2003 models is 17 problems per 100 vehicles, and owners of Japanese brands reported an industry-best 12 problems per 100 vehicles.
CR editors note that European cars often feel and drive better. But an increase in gadgetry has made them more troublesome to own. European companies in some cases have been slow to provide fixes and dealers serving European companies have not been stellar at addressing customer needs.
The findings are based on 675,000 responses from Consumer Reports subscribers who were asked last spring if they had any serious mechanical problems between April 2002 and March 2003.
Domestic brands are doing much better compared with a few years ago. The Big Three have gone from 106 problems per 100 vehicles in 1980 to this year's 18. European brands also have improved, going from 53 problems per 100 to the current 20. Europeans are on a quality slide recently, though. All Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Land Rover models had below-average reliability. BMW does pretty well, except for the 2003 7-Series. The popular BMW MINI Cooper also had worse-than-average reliability. Still, quality isn't everything. Passion and fun still matter.
Europeans beat American brands in the number of models that owners said they would buy again. The MINI Cooper, Porsche Boxster, Volvo XC90, various versions of the BMW 3-Series and the BMW Z4 roadster were among the European models owners said they would buy again. Only three domestic models - Chevrolet Corvette and Tahoe and HUMMER H2 and Chevy Tahoe - were picked by owners as possible repeat buys. The V-6 engine version of the Volkswagen Passat and the Honda Accord repeated as co-winners of best family sedan. The Ford Focus, snared most fun to drive and best small sedan. And for the best vehicles for families needing space: Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey minivans ranked highest.
The average domestic car is more reliable than the average European car, according to new rankings by Consumer Reports. It's the first time in 24 years Detroit has bested Europe.
Owners of 2003 Big Three vehicles reported an average of 18 problems per 100 vehicles. Owners of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen and other European vehicles reported an average of 20 problems per 100 vehicles. The industry average for 2003 models is 17 problems per 100 vehicles, and owners of Japanese brands reported an industry-best 12 problems per 100 vehicles.
CR editors note that European cars often feel and drive better. But an increase in gadgetry has made them more troublesome to own. European companies in some cases have been slow to provide fixes and dealers serving European companies have not been stellar at addressing customer needs.
The findings are based on 675,000 responses from Consumer Reports subscribers who were asked last spring if they had any serious mechanical problems between April 2002 and March 2003.
Domestic brands are doing much better compared with a few years ago. The Big Three have gone from 106 problems per 100 vehicles in 1980 to this year's 18. European brands also have improved, going from 53 problems per 100 to the current 20. Europeans are on a quality slide recently, though. All Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Land Rover models had below-average reliability. BMW does pretty well, except for the 2003 7-Series. The popular BMW MINI Cooper also had worse-than-average reliability. Still, quality isn't everything. Passion and fun still matter.
Europeans beat American brands in the number of models that owners said they would buy again. The MINI Cooper, Porsche Boxster, Volvo XC90, various versions of the BMW 3-Series and the BMW Z4 roadster were among the European models owners said they would buy again. Only three domestic models - Chevrolet Corvette and Tahoe and HUMMER H2 and Chevy Tahoe - were picked by owners as possible repeat buys. The V-6 engine version of the Volkswagen Passat and the Honda Accord repeated as co-winners of best family sedan. The Ford Focus, snared most fun to drive and best small sedan. And for the best vehicles for families needing space: Toyota Sienna and Honda Odyssey minivans ranked highest.
03-09-2004, 08:19 AM
#83
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Euro-car quality behind domestics - Consumer Reports
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/sil...printstory.jsp
Only 8 models recommended, out of 41:
BMW 3-Series, Porsche Boxster, Saab 9-3 and 9-5, Volkswagen Passat six-cylinder, Volvo S60, S80 and V70.
No longer recommended: Audi A4, BMW 5- and 7-Series, Land Rover Discovery, Mercedes-Benz C-, E- and M-Classes, Mini Cooper, Volvo XC90 and VW Golf, Jetta and New Beetle
The average for all vehicles is 17 problems per 100 cars built.
Euros come in at 20, US cars at 18, and Asian (Japanese+Korean combined) at 12.
One way they put it is that "a new 2003 BMW 7-Series sedan has more problems than an 8-year-old Lexus LS 400 sedan."
Add in the dollar/euro exchange rate and methinks there's some pain going to be felt in the eurocar business in the immediate future.
Only 8 models recommended, out of 41:
BMW 3-Series, Porsche Boxster, Saab 9-3 and 9-5, Volkswagen Passat six-cylinder, Volvo S60, S80 and V70.
No longer recommended: Audi A4, BMW 5- and 7-Series, Land Rover Discovery, Mercedes-Benz C-, E- and M-Classes, Mini Cooper, Volvo XC90 and VW Golf, Jetta and New Beetle
The average for all vehicles is 17 problems per 100 cars built.
Euros come in at 20, US cars at 18, and Asian (Japanese+Korean combined) at 12.
One way they put it is that "a new 2003 BMW 7-Series sedan has more problems than an 8-year-old Lexus LS 400 sedan."
Add in the dollar/euro exchange rate and methinks there's some pain going to be felt in the eurocar business in the immediate future.
03-09-2004, 08:48 AM
#84
Suzuka Master
American cars more reliable than Euro-cars
Buick Beats BMW:
New Car Rankings
Influential Annual Survey
Finds U.S. Models Surpass
European Autos in Reliability
By KAREN LUNDEGAARD
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
For the first time in 25 years, the influential Consumer Reports magazine says the reliability of Detroit car and truck brands is now slightly better, on average, than European brands.
Prestigious European brands Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Volvo, Mini and Jaguar all ranked below average for reliability in 2003, based on results from the magazine's annual subscriber survey, which this year got 675,000 responses.
For cars less than a year old, the average problem rate for European cars was 20 per 100 vehicles, compared with 18 problems per 100 for traditional U.S. brands, such as Buick, Saturn or Dodge. U.S. makers still significantly trail Japanese and Korean auto makers, though. Asian auto makers held steady at 12 problems per 100 in the latest survey.
The findings are part of the magazine's annual Auto Issue, which makes buying recommendations based on the survey results as well as its own months-long hands-on tests. The issue circulates to 5.4 million subscribers and an additional 300,000 newsstand buyers.
Consumer Reports is one of the most influential sources of consumer information on new vehicles in the U.S.
The magazine also noted that more vehicles are getting high marks for safety. The magazine said 21 sedans had "excellent" safety ratings, compared with just nine three years ago, while 11 SUV models got excellent ratings compared with two just three years earlier.
The Ford Focus is the only vehicle made by Big Three auto makers to earn a spot on Consumer Reports' "top picks" list.
Its criticism of European luxury-vehicle quality is the latest in a series of unflattering reports by independent evaluators that are tarnishing the once sterling image of German brands Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, Audi and BMW. The German cars are also facing headwinds from the dollar's weakness against the euro and intensifying competition from U.S. and Japanese brands.
German manufacturers "make very complicated vehicles with a lot of power equipment" that can cause problems, said David Champion, the magazine's senior director for auto testing. But similarly equipped models like the Lexus and Infiniti from Japan "don't have these problems."
Singled out for criticism was the BMW 7 series sedan, which was ranked as the worst European model. Owners of 2003 BMW 7 series sedans reported more problems per 100 cars to Consumer Reports than owners of a rival Japanese luxury sedan -- the 1996 Lexus LS 400 -- that's nearly eight years old, Mr. Champion said. Sales of the 7 Series are down 21% in the first two months of 2004 compared with a year earlier.
"People who buy these cars tend to be very busy people," Mr. Champion said. "Any downtime can be a big annoyance."
Mr. Champion predicted that over time, the quality problems would hurt sales of European cars. Through the end of February, Volkswagen brand sales in the U.S. are down more than 29%, and the company's Audi sales are off 18%. Mercedes-Benz U.S. sales are down 1.3%, and sales Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, which also owns Mini, are down 9.8%. (When deciding whether a brand is European, the magazine considers where the brand itself is based, not its parent company. So Volvo and Jaguar, both owned by Ford Motor Co., are European. DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit in European, while its Chrysler unit is considered American.)
For U.S. brands, the reliability jump is a big turnaround. Two years ago, U.S. and European auto makers were tied at 21 problems per 100.
Ford in particular, fared better in the new issue. The Ford brand gained four more recommendations than a year ago, though all of those recommendations, on the Explorer, Escape, Focus and Thunderbird, were included in a November "New Car Preview" issue from the magazine. The magazine also named the Ford Focus its "top pick" among small sedans, displacing perennial favorite, the Honda Civic. The sportier, faster SVT Focus was named the top pick in the Fun to Drive category, displacing last year's winner, the Subaru WRX.
In the newly created category for SUVs with three rows of seats, the Honda Pilot grabbed the top spot.
The magazine now recommends more than one in three new models, and it also names a top pick in 10 different categories. General Motors Corp., the world's largest auto maker, had 12 recommendations across its Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn and Saab lines. Its more expensive brands, Cadillac and Hummer, got no recommendations.
However, the news wasn't all good for GM, Ford and Chrysler. At a time when Detroit's Big Three are counting on many new and redesigned models to win consumers without huge discounts, the magazine still remains reluctant to give redesigned U.S.-brand models a stamp of approval in their first year. The reason: The big U.S. makers have a shakier track record for achieving high reliability.
Mr. Champion said Consumer Reports takes into account a number of factors when deciding how to rate a new or redesigned model, including the manufacturer's track record for first-year new-model quality. If the record points to average or below-average new-model quality, then Consumer Reports will usually withhold a recommended rating until it gets more data, he said.
"Most [new] Ford models tend to have about average reliability," Mr. Champion said. And while many of Chrysler's redesigned models have been very reliable out of the box, he said, "General Motors tends to be all over the place." Due to the uncertainty, "We might not want to risk a 'recommended' label and find there are a lot of problems."
Chevrolet lost its recommendation on the Malibu because of a redesign, and Chrysler lost its recommendation on the 300M and Concorde because its replacement vehicle, the Chrysler 300, is new.
Louise Goeser, vice president for quality at Ford, said she expects the No. 2 U.S. auto maker soon will win recommended ratings for new models in the first year, based on its improving quality. "It's a process of showing consistency."
Volkswagen spokesman Tony Fouladpour said the company is making quality improvements, and points out that by other measures, such as satisfaction and appeal, the auto maker scores well in other independent studies.
A GM spokesman, Dan Flores, said the auto maker is improving its new model quality, and the results are showing in surveys such as the J.D. Power & Assoc. Initial Quality Study. "One of the challenges we have as a company is that there is a perception lag from what we are actually doing in the market place in terms of first time vehicle quality, and where the customer perceives the quality of the vehicles to be," he said.
The Japanese have a better reputation with their redesigns. In fact, Consumer Reports bestowed several "top pick" designations on cars from Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. that were newly redesigned in the 2004 model year. Among them: Honda's Acura TL sedan, Toyota's Sienna minivan and Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid.
Perennial favorite, Toyota, did lose a recommendation because of safety concerns though. The magazine dropped its recommendation of the Tacoma small pickup truck because it performed poorly in a new rollover test by the federal government.
The magazine named its "top picks" in 10 categories, picking from among the 183 vehicles it had previously given "recommended" ratings. The top picks scored the best among their competitors in the magazine's testing, had average or better than average reliability, and performed "adequately" in crash tests conducted by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration or the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
And sometimes the magazine's plaudits come a little too late. This year's top pick in the Fun to Drive category, the SVT Focus, is slated to be discontinued later this year
____________________________-----
THE WINNERS
Consumer Reports magazine's top-ranked vehicles in 10 categories. The BMW 7 Series was singled out for criticism as the worst European car.
Small sedan: Ford Focus
What they said: Noted for its spaciousness, firm ride.
Family sedan: VW Passat/Honda Accord
What they said: These two share the top spot for the second year.
Small SUV: Subaru Forester
What they said: Handles with agility and rides comfortably.
Midsized SUV: Lexus RX330
What they said: Interior that rivals some luxury cars
Upscale sedan: Acura TL
What they said: Redesign helps it jump to front of the pack.
Luxury sedan: Lexus LS430
What they said: Silky smooth V8 powertrain.
Fun to Drive: Ford SVT Focus
What they said: Superb cornering and lively acceleration.
Three-row SUV: Honda Pilot
What they said: Spirited performance and seats eight people.
Minivan: Toyota Sienna
What they said: Honda Odyssey handled better but wasn't as comfy or quiet.
Green Car: Toyota Prius
What they said: Gas-electric hybrid is more spacious than its predecessor.
Source: Consumer Reports
New Car Rankings
Influential Annual Survey
Finds U.S. Models Surpass
European Autos in Reliability
By KAREN LUNDEGAARD
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
For the first time in 25 years, the influential Consumer Reports magazine says the reliability of Detroit car and truck brands is now slightly better, on average, than European brands.
Prestigious European brands Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Volkswagen, Audi, Volvo, Mini and Jaguar all ranked below average for reliability in 2003, based on results from the magazine's annual subscriber survey, which this year got 675,000 responses.
For cars less than a year old, the average problem rate for European cars was 20 per 100 vehicles, compared with 18 problems per 100 for traditional U.S. brands, such as Buick, Saturn or Dodge. U.S. makers still significantly trail Japanese and Korean auto makers, though. Asian auto makers held steady at 12 problems per 100 in the latest survey.
The findings are part of the magazine's annual Auto Issue, which makes buying recommendations based on the survey results as well as its own months-long hands-on tests. The issue circulates to 5.4 million subscribers and an additional 300,000 newsstand buyers.
Consumer Reports is one of the most influential sources of consumer information on new vehicles in the U.S.
The magazine also noted that more vehicles are getting high marks for safety. The magazine said 21 sedans had "excellent" safety ratings, compared with just nine three years ago, while 11 SUV models got excellent ratings compared with two just three years earlier.
The Ford Focus is the only vehicle made by Big Three auto makers to earn a spot on Consumer Reports' "top picks" list.
Its criticism of European luxury-vehicle quality is the latest in a series of unflattering reports by independent evaluators that are tarnishing the once sterling image of German brands Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, Audi and BMW. The German cars are also facing headwinds from the dollar's weakness against the euro and intensifying competition from U.S. and Japanese brands.
German manufacturers "make very complicated vehicles with a lot of power equipment" that can cause problems, said David Champion, the magazine's senior director for auto testing. But similarly equipped models like the Lexus and Infiniti from Japan "don't have these problems."
Singled out for criticism was the BMW 7 series sedan, which was ranked as the worst European model. Owners of 2003 BMW 7 series sedans reported more problems per 100 cars to Consumer Reports than owners of a rival Japanese luxury sedan -- the 1996 Lexus LS 400 -- that's nearly eight years old, Mr. Champion said. Sales of the 7 Series are down 21% in the first two months of 2004 compared with a year earlier.
"People who buy these cars tend to be very busy people," Mr. Champion said. "Any downtime can be a big annoyance."
Mr. Champion predicted that over time, the quality problems would hurt sales of European cars. Through the end of February, Volkswagen brand sales in the U.S. are down more than 29%, and the company's Audi sales are off 18%. Mercedes-Benz U.S. sales are down 1.3%, and sales Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, which also owns Mini, are down 9.8%. (When deciding whether a brand is European, the magazine considers where the brand itself is based, not its parent company. So Volvo and Jaguar, both owned by Ford Motor Co., are European. DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz unit in European, while its Chrysler unit is considered American.)
For U.S. brands, the reliability jump is a big turnaround. Two years ago, U.S. and European auto makers were tied at 21 problems per 100.
Ford in particular, fared better in the new issue. The Ford brand gained four more recommendations than a year ago, though all of those recommendations, on the Explorer, Escape, Focus and Thunderbird, were included in a November "New Car Preview" issue from the magazine. The magazine also named the Ford Focus its "top pick" among small sedans, displacing perennial favorite, the Honda Civic. The sportier, faster SVT Focus was named the top pick in the Fun to Drive category, displacing last year's winner, the Subaru WRX.
In the newly created category for SUVs with three rows of seats, the Honda Pilot grabbed the top spot.
The magazine now recommends more than one in three new models, and it also names a top pick in 10 different categories. General Motors Corp., the world's largest auto maker, had 12 recommendations across its Chevrolet, Buick, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn and Saab lines. Its more expensive brands, Cadillac and Hummer, got no recommendations.
However, the news wasn't all good for GM, Ford and Chrysler. At a time when Detroit's Big Three are counting on many new and redesigned models to win consumers without huge discounts, the magazine still remains reluctant to give redesigned U.S.-brand models a stamp of approval in their first year. The reason: The big U.S. makers have a shakier track record for achieving high reliability.
Mr. Champion said Consumer Reports takes into account a number of factors when deciding how to rate a new or redesigned model, including the manufacturer's track record for first-year new-model quality. If the record points to average or below-average new-model quality, then Consumer Reports will usually withhold a recommended rating until it gets more data, he said.
"Most [new] Ford models tend to have about average reliability," Mr. Champion said. And while many of Chrysler's redesigned models have been very reliable out of the box, he said, "General Motors tends to be all over the place." Due to the uncertainty, "We might not want to risk a 'recommended' label and find there are a lot of problems."
Chevrolet lost its recommendation on the Malibu because of a redesign, and Chrysler lost its recommendation on the 300M and Concorde because its replacement vehicle, the Chrysler 300, is new.
Louise Goeser, vice president for quality at Ford, said she expects the No. 2 U.S. auto maker soon will win recommended ratings for new models in the first year, based on its improving quality. "It's a process of showing consistency."
Volkswagen spokesman Tony Fouladpour said the company is making quality improvements, and points out that by other measures, such as satisfaction and appeal, the auto maker scores well in other independent studies.
A GM spokesman, Dan Flores, said the auto maker is improving its new model quality, and the results are showing in surveys such as the J.D. Power & Assoc. Initial Quality Study. "One of the challenges we have as a company is that there is a perception lag from what we are actually doing in the market place in terms of first time vehicle quality, and where the customer perceives the quality of the vehicles to be," he said.
The Japanese have a better reputation with their redesigns. In fact, Consumer Reports bestowed several "top pick" designations on cars from Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. that were newly redesigned in the 2004 model year. Among them: Honda's Acura TL sedan, Toyota's Sienna minivan and Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid.
Perennial favorite, Toyota, did lose a recommendation because of safety concerns though. The magazine dropped its recommendation of the Tacoma small pickup truck because it performed poorly in a new rollover test by the federal government.
The magazine named its "top picks" in 10 categories, picking from among the 183 vehicles it had previously given "recommended" ratings. The top picks scored the best among their competitors in the magazine's testing, had average or better than average reliability, and performed "adequately" in crash tests conducted by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration or the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.
And sometimes the magazine's plaudits come a little too late. This year's top pick in the Fun to Drive category, the SVT Focus, is slated to be discontinued later this year
____________________________-----
THE WINNERS
Consumer Reports magazine's top-ranked vehicles in 10 categories. The BMW 7 Series was singled out for criticism as the worst European car.
Small sedan: Ford Focus
What they said: Noted for its spaciousness, firm ride.
Family sedan: VW Passat/Honda Accord
What they said: These two share the top spot for the second year.
Small SUV: Subaru Forester
What they said: Handles with agility and rides comfortably.
Midsized SUV: Lexus RX330
What they said: Interior that rivals some luxury cars
Upscale sedan: Acura TL
What they said: Redesign helps it jump to front of the pack.
Luxury sedan: Lexus LS430
What they said: Silky smooth V8 powertrain.
Fun to Drive: Ford SVT Focus
What they said: Superb cornering and lively acceleration.
Three-row SUV: Honda Pilot
What they said: Spirited performance and seats eight people.
Minivan: Toyota Sienna
What they said: Honda Odyssey handled better but wasn't as comfy or quiet.
Green Car: Toyota Prius
What they said: Gas-electric hybrid is more spacious than its predecessor.
Source: Consumer Reports
03-09-2004, 09:15 AM
#85
Race Director
I guess it depends on where you get your numbers from. In the article itself it says that European cars had 49 MORE problems than domestics. I saw somewhere else that Lexus had least amount of problems at 63 per 100 compared to something like 120-150 for average and over 200 for some troubled cars. I guess the difference is that CR gets its numbers from end users who may or may not report a problem whereas the other report got its numbers from the makers themselves. Either way the trend that started long ago is there - Asian brands have the least problems, followed by domestics, follwed by European.
All of the above doesn't really matter that much however since all of the cars are getting better. Even the worst car on the list probably has fewer problems that the typical car of 10 years ago.
Biker, who still wonders how Yugo was able to sell so many cars.
All of the above doesn't really matter that much however since all of the cars are getting better. Even the worst car on the list probably has fewer problems that the typical car of 10 years ago.
Biker, who still wonders how Yugo was able to sell so many cars.
03-09-2004, 09:21 AM
#87
Photography Nerd
Does this mean that a Kia will have less problems than a 7 series? I know that German cars have some minor build problems (that's what gives them character 
) but something doesn't seem right here.....
) but something doesn't seem right here.....
03-09-2004, 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by dabuda2004
wonder what the numbers would've been if they had differentiated asian into korean and japanese vehicles
wonder what the numbers would've been if they had differentiated asian into korean and japanese vehicles
Cause the japanese makes add up to a *lot* of cars.
The general word over the last year is that the Koreans are about as good as the american cars on average.
Say, 18-19.
Most likely, it would be a minimal change to the japanese score of less than 1 point. So, 9-10.
More interesting, I think, would be to break out the loss-leaders (Cavaliers, etc) and fleet cars, from the american makes to see how the mainstream american cars actually rate. I'm guessing that once you extract the cars purposefully made on the cheap you'd find scores in the 15-16 range for mainstream american cars. Still not up to japanese standards but clearly better than the euros and korean makes.
The thing to keep in mind is that these are averages across all makes and models and that the euro lineups lean heavily on the luxo and sport markets (read:expensive) where lack of quality is most annoying, while the american and korean makes feature a lot of no-frills vehicles. You don't expect a 10K Kia to be built to the standards of a 40K M-B, so when they turn out to be comparable, it really stings.
Thus, the play this is getting in the news.
03-09-2004, 06:06 PM
#94
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Crazy Sellout
All Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Land Rover models had below-average reliability. BMW does pretty well, except for the 2003 7-Series. The popular BMW MINI Cooper also had worse-than-average reliability. Still, quality isn't everything.
03-09-2004, 09:19 PM
#98
Senior Moderator
gav, keep up with the times.
Its a 2004 1.8t quattro. Only car i liked at 31k that was new
Of course i did my research before buying and as far as reliabity goes... the 02-03 models had issues with coilpacks. Supposly they fixed them in the 2003.5 models.
Its a 2004 1.8t quattro. Only car i liked at 31k that was new
Of course i did my research before buying and as far as reliabity goes... the 02-03 models had issues with coilpacks. Supposly they fixed them in the 2003.5 models.
03-11-2004, 10:32 AM
#99
Moderator Alumnus
The thing I don't like about that comparison is the level of technology applied to a Mercedes/BMW far exceeds that of a Ford Focus.
I-drive, Navigation, Climate control systems.......
With more points of failure one would expect to find more problems.
Statistics can be played in any direction...
I-drive, Navigation, Climate control systems.......
With more points of failure one would expect to find more problems.
Statistics can be played in any direction...
03-11-2004, 11:12 PM
#102
Shogun Assassin
Originally posted by SiGGy
The thing I don't like about that comparison is the level of technology applied to a Mercedes/BMW far exceeds that of a Ford Focus.
I-drive, Navigation, Climate control systems.......
With more points of failure one would expect to find more problems.
Statistics can be played in any direction...
The thing I don't like about that comparison is the level of technology applied to a Mercedes/BMW far exceeds that of a Ford Focus.
I-drive, Navigation, Climate control systems.......
With more points of failure one would expect to find more problems.
Statistics can be played in any direction...
03-13-2004, 02:07 PM
#104
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Originally posted by SiGGy
The thing I don't like about that comparison is the level of technology applied to a Mercedes/BMW far exceeds that of a Ford Focus.
I-drive, Navigation, Climate control systems.......
With more points of failure one would expect to find more problems.
Statistics can be played in any direction...
The thing I don't like about that comparison is the level of technology applied to a Mercedes/BMW far exceeds that of a Ford Focus.
I-drive, Navigation, Climate control systems.......
With more points of failure one would expect to find more problems.
Statistics can be played in any direction...
03-23-2004, 12:42 PM
#105
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Consumer Reports: Good News and Bad
The reliability of Detroit vehicles has surpassed the European scores — but reliability isn’t everything.
by Jerry Flint (2004-03-22)
Related Articles:
Flint: Detroit's Losing Markets by Jerry Flint (1/26/2004)
Minivans and small pickups aren't going the way of the dinosaur - unless you work for the Big 2.5.
By now you all should have read the good news reported by the car testers of Consumer Reports. They found "vehicles from Detroit's Big Three are now more reliable than those from European manufacturers." They also "tend to hold up better than European makes as time passes."
CR is probably the most important auto publication as far as the buying public is concerned. Circulation is four million, plus Web site subscribers. They've got a 327-acre auto test facility in Connecticut, 17 employees for the car testing and they spent $1.9 million buying vehicles last year. The reliability reports are based on information on 675,000 vehicles from subscribers and the Web site.
People believe CR. I'd been out there before but spent a day with them in early March and they get more impressive all the time. So if they say Detroit cars are getting better, believe it. So that's good news.
Now, the bad
Now the bad.
One: The Japanese were still better than anyone else when it comes to reliability, the magazine says. The average Detroit model still has 50 percent more problems than the average Japanese.
Two: There is so much ill will out there, and reports don't change opinions. It's going to take a new generation to make a dent. The heavy recalls of Detroit vehicles recently don't help Detroit's case.
Three: Reliability isn't everything: Look at what CR calls "Most Satisfying" and the answer to the question: "Would you buy this car again?" Detroit's vehicles do badly, terribly, in fact.
Of 33 vehicles listed in this "Most Satisfying" table, only three were from Detroit: the Chevy Corvette, the Hummer H2, and the Chevrolet Avalanche. You'll note they were all from General Motors but only one, the Avalanche, could be called a volume product. Of the other 33, ten were Toyotas, seven were Hondas, four were BMWs (including MINI), and four were Nissans.
Note that this list of "Most Satisfying" leans heavily to the exotic. The two-seaters - the Porsche Boxster, Nissan 350Z, Mazda Miata, the 'Vette - and specialty cars as like the MINI, the Hummer H2 and the Toyota Prius hybrid account for 13 of the 33. Sexy counts here. So what we may be getting is a lot of car nuts saying they love their exotic vehicles. But there's a point to that, too. Cars equal love if they are really loveable.
Where did Detroit score big time? In the "Least Satisfying," or the I-wouldn't-buy-that-dog-again group, getting 15 of 27. GM was outstanding among the disliked group. Eight were GM names and three more were from GM's partners, Suzuki and Isuzu. Chrysler scored almost as badly: seven plus three vehicles of associate Mitsubishi.
To prove that reliability isn't everything, GM's Buick Regal came out as the most reliable family sedan, even outranking the Toyota Camry. Of course, reliable or not, few want to buy the Regal. Sales are down 32 percent this year, and for all 2003 sales were down 42 percent from 2002. GM is replacing the Regal next fall. CR doesn't even have it on its "Recommended" list. The GM cars that CR now recommends include the Saturn LS. Sales of the Saturn LS have been so low that GM is killing the car. Another CR Recommended is the Buick Park Avenue. Personally, I think the Park Avenue is handsome, but it's really an old folks' car, a very old folks' car. This year, Park Avenue sales are down 22 percent atop an 11-percent drop in all 2003 from 2002.
Reliability rules?
The point again is that reliability isn't everything. It's important, sure, especially if you take a poll. Nobody will say he wants a car that's unreliable. But there are other factors: looks, comfortable, power, handling. The first thing we really sense about a car is how it looks, its style, its design. That's the big first impression.
This may be where Detroit's cars have fallen down badly. Maybe customers could forgive a few more defects if the cars looked great. But Detroit design the past few eons have been boring. This is about to change. Chrysler's new 300 is coming out now. It's big, husky, handsome, and different. Next fall Ford's Mustang is gorgeous and the new Five Hundred sedan is a bit of a head turner, too. GM's coming Pontiac Solstice sports car is a beauty and the Pontiac G6 sedan isn't bad, for GM, anyway.
These are big improvements. It's not enough. The new Chevy Malibu is boring. The design is boring, which is a shame because it's a much-improved model. Next fall the new small Cobalt sedan won't turn any heads, either.
So the improving record on reliability won't stop Detroit's falling market share. But over time it should help, and the improving looks will help, too.
The foreign makes will continue to gain, the Asians particularly. They are adding sport-utility models and pickups while their cars remain strong, The Detroit brands, from GM, Ford, and Chrysler, excluding the foreign nameplates they own, took 59 percent of the sales, cars and trucks, in the first two months this year. That was down from 60.4 percent a year ago. If you just looked at cars, Detroit took only 44.7 percent, down from 47.2 percent a year ago.
Don't expect this trend to reverse itself, but at 17 million sales a year there's still plenty of business for everyone.
The reliability of Detroit vehicles has surpassed the European scores — but reliability isn’t everything.
by Jerry Flint (2004-03-22)
Related Articles:
Flint: Detroit's Losing Markets by Jerry Flint (1/26/2004)
Minivans and small pickups aren't going the way of the dinosaur - unless you work for the Big 2.5.
By now you all should have read the good news reported by the car testers of Consumer Reports. They found "vehicles from Detroit's Big Three are now more reliable than those from European manufacturers." They also "tend to hold up better than European makes as time passes."
CR is probably the most important auto publication as far as the buying public is concerned. Circulation is four million, plus Web site subscribers. They've got a 327-acre auto test facility in Connecticut, 17 employees for the car testing and they spent $1.9 million buying vehicles last year. The reliability reports are based on information on 675,000 vehicles from subscribers and the Web site.
People believe CR. I'd been out there before but spent a day with them in early March and they get more impressive all the time. So if they say Detroit cars are getting better, believe it. So that's good news.
Now, the bad
Now the bad.
One: The Japanese were still better than anyone else when it comes to reliability, the magazine says. The average Detroit model still has 50 percent more problems than the average Japanese.
Two: There is so much ill will out there, and reports don't change opinions. It's going to take a new generation to make a dent. The heavy recalls of Detroit vehicles recently don't help Detroit's case.
Three: Reliability isn't everything: Look at what CR calls "Most Satisfying" and the answer to the question: "Would you buy this car again?" Detroit's vehicles do badly, terribly, in fact.
Of 33 vehicles listed in this "Most Satisfying" table, only three were from Detroit: the Chevy Corvette, the Hummer H2, and the Chevrolet Avalanche. You'll note they were all from General Motors but only one, the Avalanche, could be called a volume product. Of the other 33, ten were Toyotas, seven were Hondas, four were BMWs (including MINI), and four were Nissans.
Note that this list of "Most Satisfying" leans heavily to the exotic. The two-seaters - the Porsche Boxster, Nissan 350Z, Mazda Miata, the 'Vette - and specialty cars as like the MINI, the Hummer H2 and the Toyota Prius hybrid account for 13 of the 33. Sexy counts here. So what we may be getting is a lot of car nuts saying they love their exotic vehicles. But there's a point to that, too. Cars equal love if they are really loveable.
Where did Detroit score big time? In the "Least Satisfying," or the I-wouldn't-buy-that-dog-again group, getting 15 of 27. GM was outstanding among the disliked group. Eight were GM names and three more were from GM's partners, Suzuki and Isuzu. Chrysler scored almost as badly: seven plus three vehicles of associate Mitsubishi.
To prove that reliability isn't everything, GM's Buick Regal came out as the most reliable family sedan, even outranking the Toyota Camry. Of course, reliable or not, few want to buy the Regal. Sales are down 32 percent this year, and for all 2003 sales were down 42 percent from 2002. GM is replacing the Regal next fall. CR doesn't even have it on its "Recommended" list. The GM cars that CR now recommends include the Saturn LS. Sales of the Saturn LS have been so low that GM is killing the car. Another CR Recommended is the Buick Park Avenue. Personally, I think the Park Avenue is handsome, but it's really an old folks' car, a very old folks' car. This year, Park Avenue sales are down 22 percent atop an 11-percent drop in all 2003 from 2002.
Reliability rules?
The point again is that reliability isn't everything. It's important, sure, especially if you take a poll. Nobody will say he wants a car that's unreliable. But there are other factors: looks, comfortable, power, handling. The first thing we really sense about a car is how it looks, its style, its design. That's the big first impression.
This may be where Detroit's cars have fallen down badly. Maybe customers could forgive a few more defects if the cars looked great. But Detroit design the past few eons have been boring. This is about to change. Chrysler's new 300 is coming out now. It's big, husky, handsome, and different. Next fall Ford's Mustang is gorgeous and the new Five Hundred sedan is a bit of a head turner, too. GM's coming Pontiac Solstice sports car is a beauty and the Pontiac G6 sedan isn't bad, for GM, anyway.
These are big improvements. It's not enough. The new Chevy Malibu is boring. The design is boring, which is a shame because it's a much-improved model. Next fall the new small Cobalt sedan won't turn any heads, either.
So the improving record on reliability won't stop Detroit's falling market share. But over time it should help, and the improving looks will help, too.
The foreign makes will continue to gain, the Asians particularly. They are adding sport-utility models and pickups while their cars remain strong, The Detroit brands, from GM, Ford, and Chrysler, excluding the foreign nameplates they own, took 59 percent of the sales, cars and trucks, in the first two months this year. That was down from 60.4 percent a year ago. If you just looked at cars, Detroit took only 44.7 percent, down from 47.2 percent a year ago.
Don't expect this trend to reverse itself, but at 17 million sales a year there's still plenty of business for everyone.
11-12-2004, 09:50 AM
#106
Safety Car
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Consumer Reports Most reliable cars **Subaru at Top in Quality Survey (page 1)**
Consumer Reports: Most reliable cars
Sedans from VW, Mercedes, BMW fare poorly while Japanese models take the top spots.
November 8, 2004: 6:01 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - European sedans may have many wonderful attributes. Reliability, however, is not among them, according to the latest Consumer Reports reliability survey.
Small cars
These models earned ratings Most and Least reliable in Consumer Reports' 2004 reliability survey.
Most reliable.............Least reliable
Toyota Corolla......... Volkswagen Golf (turbo)
Scion xB..................Volkswagen Jetta (turbo)
Honda Civic............. Volkswagen New Beetle
Mazda3
Subaru Impreza
Toyota Echo
Mitsubishi Lancer (except Evo)
Source: Consumer Reports
Of the 11 sedans with the lowest predicted reliability, according to the survey, 10 were from European brands including Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar and BMW. Most Volkswagen models were rated far below average for reliability. The all-wheel drive Volkswagen Passat received the lowest reliability rating of any vehicle in the survey.
A spokesman for Volkswagen of America did not deny that the company's products have had problems.
"We are obviously aware of some of these issues," he said.
The company has been working to track and correct reliability problems, he said, adding that customers should see results in upcoming redesigned 2005 versions of several of its cars.
Of the 32 car models with the highest reliability ratings, 29 were from Japan-based manufacturers. Toyota, with 16, and Honda, with 7, had the most vehicles with top reliability ratings. South Korean automaker Hyundai's Sonata earned a top spot in the ratings this year, a first for that manufacturer.
The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic gas/electric hybrid cars both were both listed among the most reliable vehicles.
The only cars from an American manufacturer to earn top scores were the Buick Regal, which has been discontinued for 2005, and non-supercharged versions of the Pontiac Grand Prix.
Among SUVs, Japanese brands monopolized the top spots. The Toyota Land Cruiser and Mitsubishi Endeavor were among the most reliable, according to the survey
Sedans
These models earned ratings Most and Least reliable in Consumer Reports' 2004 reliability survey.
Most reliable.................................... Least reliable
Lexus IS300..................................... Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Acura RL (previous version) ................Jaguar S-Type
Toyota Camry (4-cyl.)...................... BMW 7 Series
Toyota Avalon................................. Jaguar X-Type
Lexus LS430.................................... Mercedes-Benz E-Class
Lexus GS300/GS430 (previous versions) Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6)
Buick Regal (discontinued).................. Volvo S60 (AWD)
Pontiac Grand Prix ............................Saab 9-3
Hyundai Sonata Pontiac.................... Grand Prix (supercharged)
Infiniti G35 (AWD)............................ Volkswagen Passat (AWD)
.................................................. ...BMW 5 Series
Source: Consumer Reports
The Toyota Tundra was the only pick-up truck to earn a top rating in the survey. The new Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon trucks both scored above-average. The redesigned Ford F-150, which had been among that company's most reliable products, slipped in the ratings this year.
The survey included responses from the owners of 810,000 vehicles. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2004 and covered 1997 to 2004 models. The ratings are based on the number of problems per 100 vehicles in the survey.
The reliability ratings form part of the data used to determine which models are recommended by Consumer Reports. Other factors include government crash and rollover tests and performance in Consumer Reports' own auto tests.
Sedans from VW, Mercedes, BMW fare poorly while Japanese models take the top spots.
November 8, 2004: 6:01 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - European sedans may have many wonderful attributes. Reliability, however, is not among them, according to the latest Consumer Reports reliability survey.
Small cars
These models earned ratings Most and Least reliable in Consumer Reports' 2004 reliability survey.
Most reliable.............Least reliable
Toyota Corolla......... Volkswagen Golf (turbo)
Scion xB..................Volkswagen Jetta (turbo)
Honda Civic............. Volkswagen New Beetle
Mazda3
Subaru Impreza
Toyota Echo
Mitsubishi Lancer (except Evo)
Source: Consumer Reports
Of the 11 sedans with the lowest predicted reliability, according to the survey, 10 were from European brands including Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar and BMW. Most Volkswagen models were rated far below average for reliability. The all-wheel drive Volkswagen Passat received the lowest reliability rating of any vehicle in the survey.
A spokesman for Volkswagen of America did not deny that the company's products have had problems.
"We are obviously aware of some of these issues," he said.
The company has been working to track and correct reliability problems, he said, adding that customers should see results in upcoming redesigned 2005 versions of several of its cars.
Of the 32 car models with the highest reliability ratings, 29 were from Japan-based manufacturers. Toyota, with 16, and Honda, with 7, had the most vehicles with top reliability ratings. South Korean automaker Hyundai's Sonata earned a top spot in the ratings this year, a first for that manufacturer.
The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic gas/electric hybrid cars both were both listed among the most reliable vehicles.
The only cars from an American manufacturer to earn top scores were the Buick Regal, which has been discontinued for 2005, and non-supercharged versions of the Pontiac Grand Prix.
Among SUVs, Japanese brands monopolized the top spots. The Toyota Land Cruiser and Mitsubishi Endeavor were among the most reliable, according to the survey
Sedans
These models earned ratings Most and Least reliable in Consumer Reports' 2004 reliability survey.
Most reliable.................................... Least reliable
Lexus IS300..................................... Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Acura RL (previous version) ................Jaguar S-Type
Toyota Camry (4-cyl.)...................... BMW 7 Series
Toyota Avalon................................. Jaguar X-Type
Lexus LS430.................................... Mercedes-Benz E-Class
Lexus GS300/GS430 (previous versions) Mercedes-Benz C-Class (V6)
Buick Regal (discontinued).................. Volvo S60 (AWD)
Pontiac Grand Prix ............................Saab 9-3
Hyundai Sonata Pontiac.................... Grand Prix (supercharged)
Infiniti G35 (AWD)............................ Volkswagen Passat (AWD)
.................................................. ...BMW 5 Series
Source: Consumer Reports
The Toyota Tundra was the only pick-up truck to earn a top rating in the survey. The new Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon trucks both scored above-average. The redesigned Ford F-150, which had been among that company's most reliable products, slipped in the ratings this year.
The survey included responses from the owners of 810,000 vehicles. The survey was conducted in the spring of 2004 and covered 1997 to 2004 models. The ratings are based on the number of problems per 100 vehicles in the survey.
The reliability ratings form part of the data used to determine which models are recommended by Consumer Reports. Other factors include government crash and rollover tests and performance in Consumer Reports' own auto tests.
11-12-2004, 10:17 AM
#107
Where is my super sauce?
How could a Scion be 'most reliable' when it only has a 1-2 year history?
Are they only looking at how many times a car needs to go back to the dealer in the first year? If so, there are a lot more crappy cars out there then I would have assumed -- ie: I'd assume that the majority of cars should have no problems in their first year on the road.
Are they only looking at how many times a car needs to go back to the dealer in the first year? If so, there are a lot more crappy cars out there then I would have assumed -- ie: I'd assume that the majority of cars should have no problems in their first year on the road.
11-13-2004, 08:39 PM
#110
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Originally Posted by Slimey
How could a Scion be 'most reliable' when it only has a 1-2 year history?
Are they only looking at how many times a car needs to go back to the dealer in the first year? If so, there are a lot more crappy cars out there then I would have assumed -- ie: I'd assume that the majority of cars should have no problems in their first year on the road.
Are they only looking at how many times a car needs to go back to the dealer in the first year? If so, there are a lot more crappy cars out there then I would have assumed -- ie: I'd assume that the majority of cars should have no problems in their first year on the road.
And I thought its usually the 1st year a car is on the road is when all the "bugs" and problems are usually found.
11-13-2004, 08:57 PM
#111
Where is my super sauce?
Originally Posted by sarlacc23
Aside from the Scion tC, the xB and xA are imports from Japan...so they have been around for awhile more then 1-2 years.
And I thought its usually the 1st year a car is on the road is when all the "bugs" and problems are usually found.
And I thought its usually the 1st year a car is on the road is when all the "bugs" and problems are usually found.
Yes, I'd expect a bug or two, but not reliability issues in any new car.
11-17-2004, 08:26 AM
#112
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Slimey
I didn't know that Scion had a history...
11-30-2004, 08:53 AM
#119
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by SG81
isn't it b/c they're mexican built 
I had a Ford built in Mexico and it was a very good car.
The problem with VW is that specific plant where the Golf/Jetta is made.
The Passat is a hell of a lot better than the Golf/Jetta but it's still a laggard in quality compared to other cars in its class.
