C&D Comparo: TL vs A4 vs 330i vs CTS vs G35 vs IS350 vs 9-3 vs S60R
09-09-2005, 09:25 AM
#41
The Creator
Originally Posted by eidji
I do not understand CD's philosophy concerning the 3 series.
09-09-2005, 10:46 AM
#42
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All signs lead to Lexus supplying C&D with a ringer. Look at the stats and consider that this is a power sapping automatic. Maybe a manual I would believe since you can launch harder and more power is placed to the ground.
09-10-2005, 02:52 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by dom
R&T's IS350 test resulted in 6.0 to 60 and 14.x in the 1/4.
09-10-2005, 03:07 AM
#45
Senior Moderator
09-10-2005, 05:30 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by dom
R&T's IS350 test resulted in 6.0 to 60 and 14.x in the 1/4.
09-10-2005, 07:00 PM
#47
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by Maximized
Thats almost a 1 second discrepency. I officially call BS on C&D's claims. Most likely Lexus supplied a ringer or the car is severly under rated.
09-10-2005, 11:09 PM
#48
The Oracle of Acurazine!
Originally Posted by charliemike
Are we 100% sure they are both manuals or automatics? A difference like that makes me think they're two different transmissions.
09-11-2005, 07:01 AM
#49
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Teh Jatt
IS350 only comes in AUTOMATIC.
I tend to agree with Maximized's 'ringer' comment. It just seems like C/D's number for the IS were MUCH faster than a couple of the other mag reviews.
Sidenote: I'm registered for the Lexus Touch of Class event next Saturday where I'll be trying out the new IS and GS at length...stay tuned for a review.
09-11-2005, 06:13 PM
#50
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Other things bother me about that comparo and not just the Lexus's 0-60 time. According to the article the test was done in the high desert east of LA with ambient temps around 100 deg.. At that altitude and temperature and probably very low humidity none of those cars should have done the times reported. Probably the guys at CD introduced one of their famous fudge factors. Lord knows they've been stung with ringers often enough they should recognize one by now. 
09-12-2005, 05:06 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by TypeRS
Car & Bimmer...i mean Car & Driver have always had a thing for bimmers...and also hondas. biased? yes.
09-14-2005, 10:02 PM
#53
I'm the Firestarter
Originally Posted by phile
Read any comparison where the 3-Series is involved...it is either always 1st or 2nd place. I don't think I've ever seen it in 3rd place from any comparison.I think the 330xi was also 3rd out of 3 in a comparo with the S4 and WRX.
The 760Li was 2nd and last compared to the S600 (I know, you said 1st or 2nd, but it was still last).
09-15-2005, 01:39 PM
#55
Originally Posted by Belzebutt
The 760Li was 2nd and last compared to the S600 (I know, you said 1st or 2nd, but it was still last).
09-25-2005, 09:06 PM
#56
Senior Moderator
C/D Oct 2005 $35k sport sedan comparo
Hey ...
Here is the link:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=9993
You'll have to watch a Honda Ridgeline commercial ... not that annoying ... you can play a 'memory' game as well if you'd like.
Cars invited to the dance:
Acura TL
Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
BMW 330i
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35
Lexus IS350
Saab 93 Aero
Volvo S40R AWD
Anyway ... you can guess who won? If you guessed BMW, you'd be right. I'm just a little disappointed that the BMW still won despite their test car was a lemon (ie electrical problems galore!) so how could they 'test' it with the others? I can see why readers who are pro-US manufacturers claim the editors may have bias.
Even the Lexus IS didn't have impressive performance numbers (ie slowest lane change, UNDERSTEER for a RWD car?!) and had the subjectively worst rear seats, it still turned out 2nd place.
FYI: the Acura scored 4th behind the G35. They had good things to say about it (ie biggest bargain, very good interior -- esp back seat, hides FWD until you hit its limits, etc).
Here is the link:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=9993
You'll have to watch a Honda Ridgeline commercial ... not that annoying ... you can play a 'memory' game as well if you'd like.
Cars invited to the dance:
Acura TL
Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
BMW 330i
Cadillac CTS
Infiniti G35
Lexus IS350
Saab 93 Aero
Volvo S40R AWD
Anyway ... you can guess who won? If you guessed BMW, you'd be right. I'm just a little disappointed that the BMW still won despite their test car was a lemon (ie electrical problems galore!) so how could they 'test' it with the others? I can see why readers who are pro-US manufacturers claim the editors may have bias.
Even the Lexus IS didn't have impressive performance numbers (ie slowest lane change, UNDERSTEER for a RWD car?!) and had the subjectively worst rear seats, it still turned out 2nd place.
FYI: the Acura scored 4th behind the G35. They had good things to say about it (ie biggest bargain, very good interior -- esp back seat, hides FWD until you hit its limits, etc).
09-25-2005, 09:26 PM
#57
Burn some dust here
About what I expected.
I've driven a few and this is how I rank them (* means driven)
BMW 330i*
Lexus IS350
Acura TL*
Infiniti G35*
Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
Cadillac CTS*
Saab 93 Aero
Volvo S40R AWD
I've driven a few and this is how I rank them (* means driven)
BMW 330i*
Lexus IS350
Acura TL*
Infiniti G35*
Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
Cadillac CTS*
Saab 93 Aero
Volvo S40R AWD
09-25-2005, 10:05 PM
#61
Registered Abuser of VTEC
Originally Posted by agranado
ABS malfunction sent them into a 360 spin @70 MPH and they still ranked it first over all other cars?
seriously.
seriously.
I have the magazine, and when I read that I was shocked.
09-26-2005, 06:31 AM
#62
Outnumbered at home
So for a 35k comparo does anyone have the prices for all of them? Have a feeling only 1 or 2 are anywhere near that 35k number 
but price usually has no meaning to C&D when a bimmer is in the mix
but price usually has no meaning to C&D when a bimmer is in the mix
09-26-2005, 07:37 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by agranado
ABS malfunction sent them into a 360 spin @70 MPH and they still ranked it first over all other cars?
seriously.
seriously.
10-10-2005, 05:17 PM
#66
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C&D Comparo: TL vs A4 vs 330i vs CTS vs G35 vs IS350 vs 9-3 vs S60R
$35,000 Sports Sedans - - BY AARON ROBINSON - - Source: CarandDriver.com
Eighth Place
Saab 9-3 Aero
Highs: Mod cockpit details, generous back seat, lusty thrust once the turbo is spinning.
Lows: Clomps over bumps, a sloppy shifter, turbo lag, a sea of tiny buttons on the dash.
The Verdict: Somebody tell GM that mediocrity is not a Saab heritage trait.
-----------------------
Seventh Place
Volvo S60R AWD
Highs: Made-by-Maserati interior, thorough upgrades that separate it from other snoozy Volvos, decent ride with suspension set to comfort.
Lows: Has an on/off switch instead of a throttle, lifeless steering, priced for a Pentagon spreadsheet.
The Verdict: A wealthy guy's WRX.
---------------------
Sixth Place
Cadillac CTS
Highs: Distinctive machete-hewn styling, "GM" and "handling" are an oxymoron no longer, solid torque, lustrous paint.
Lows: Exhaust drone, blurry controls, dime-store dash a generation behind the competition.
The Verdict: An extended teaser for the next CTS.
---------------------
Fifth Place
Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
Highs: Serene expressway cruiser, German sportlich handling, the same brilliant Audi interior.
Lows: Expensive, back seat is a phone booth for three, the same brilliant Audi interior.
The Verdict: Audi stands pat as others catch up.
---------------------
Fourth Place
Acura TL
Highs: Lubricated controls, a V-6 that loves its redline, everyone's favorite back seat.
Lows: Jittery ride, steering gets squirmy when you goose it.
The Verdict: A sharp design without fatal flaws.
-------------------
Third Place
Infiniti G35
Highs: Makes fast-car noises, attacks corners, strikes a happy balance between ride and handling.
Lows: Some buzzes and rattles, gauges hard to decipher, stability control prone to epileptic outbursts.
The Verdict: Aging gracefully down the rankings.
-------------------
Second Place
Lexus IS350
Highs: The quiet horsepower king, seamless interior finish, the most entertaining Lexus so far.
Lows: No way to unplug the stability control, no stick shift with the big V-6, back seat gets the bottom score.
The Verdict: Speaks softly and carries a big stick.
------------------
First Place
BMW 330i
Highs: Everything lovable about a BMW is there, no infuriating iDrive in our test car.
Lows: Cold interior design, fritzing electrics, a Platinum Visa price.
The Verdict: The preferred running shoes for runners.
Saab 9-3 Aero
Highs: Mod cockpit details, generous back seat, lusty thrust once the turbo is spinning.
Lows: Clomps over bumps, a sloppy shifter, turbo lag, a sea of tiny buttons on the dash.
The Verdict: Somebody tell GM that mediocrity is not a Saab heritage trait.
-----------------------
Seventh Place
Volvo S60R AWD
Highs: Made-by-Maserati interior, thorough upgrades that separate it from other snoozy Volvos, decent ride with suspension set to comfort.
Lows: Has an on/off switch instead of a throttle, lifeless steering, priced for a Pentagon spreadsheet.
The Verdict: A wealthy guy's WRX.
---------------------
Sixth Place
Cadillac CTS
Highs: Distinctive machete-hewn styling, "GM" and "handling" are an oxymoron no longer, solid torque, lustrous paint.
Lows: Exhaust drone, blurry controls, dime-store dash a generation behind the competition.
The Verdict: An extended teaser for the next CTS.
---------------------
Fifth Place
Audi A4 3.2 Quattro
Highs: Serene expressway cruiser, German sportlich handling, the same brilliant Audi interior.
Lows: Expensive, back seat is a phone booth for three, the same brilliant Audi interior.
The Verdict: Audi stands pat as others catch up.
---------------------
Fourth Place
Acura TL
Highs: Lubricated controls, a V-6 that loves its redline, everyone's favorite back seat.
Lows: Jittery ride, steering gets squirmy when you goose it.
The Verdict: A sharp design without fatal flaws.
-------------------
Third Place
Infiniti G35
Highs: Makes fast-car noises, attacks corners, strikes a happy balance between ride and handling.
Lows: Some buzzes and rattles, gauges hard to decipher, stability control prone to epileptic outbursts.
The Verdict: Aging gracefully down the rankings.
-------------------
Second Place
Lexus IS350
Highs: The quiet horsepower king, seamless interior finish, the most entertaining Lexus so far.
Lows: No way to unplug the stability control, no stick shift with the big V-6, back seat gets the bottom score.
The Verdict: Speaks softly and carries a big stick.
------------------
First Place
BMW 330i
Highs: Everything lovable about a BMW is there, no infuriating iDrive in our test car.
Lows: Cold interior design, fritzing electrics, a Platinum Visa price.
The Verdict: The preferred running shoes for runners.
10-10-2005, 05:19 PM
#67
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From the article about the IS350:
It also has 306 ponies from an all-new 3.5-liter V-6, enough to make 60 mph in 5.1 seconds and sear your quarter-mile in 13.7 seconds at 104 mph
...
The appetite for curves is bigger than in any Toyota product we have ever tried, the stopping power mighty—167 feet from 70 mph-surpassing the other cars both in immediacy and effectiveness.
...
The appetite for curves is bigger than in any Toyota product we have ever tried, the stopping power mighty—167 feet from 70 mph-surpassing the other cars both in immediacy and effectiveness.
10-10-2005, 05:24 PM
#68
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From the article about the IS350:
Well, since the test drive at the Taste of Lexus even is still fresh in my head (see separate thread), I can say with certainty that the above is completely accurate (minues the highway comment).
And yet the IS350 doesn't become an extension of your legs and forearms, as the BMW or even the G35 does. Editors wrote of a twitchy, overly zealous response to steering inputs by an overdamped suspension that was annoyingly busy on the freeway. Scrub data through the electrically assisted steering rack get muted, and the weighting seems typically Lexus light and artificial.
10-11-2005, 07:52 AM
#72
Outnumbered at home
Originally Posted by Crazy Sellout
3series... still the benchmark! 
nobody gets more kudos in spite of impressive issues like bimmer
pretty much a sham of a comparo.
10-11-2005, 01:20 PM
#74
Outnumbered at home
Originally Posted by gavriil
You mean the 330 does not deserve to be number 1?
yup. Sorry the car had serious and dangerous electrical problems. No way should it have been number 1 when braking couldn't be verified and the thing wouldn't start some of the time.
I am sure it drives great but people actually have to live with these cars and that is a major issue to overlook.
Even leaving out is huge price gap over the TL and G35. 10k is serious dough and they seem to overlook that fact.
10-11-2005, 02:58 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by 95gt
yup. Sorry the car had serious and dangerous electrical problems. No way should it have been number 1 when braking couldn't be verified and the thing wouldn't start some of the time.
I am sure it drives great but people actually have to live with these cars and that is a major issue to overlook.
Even leaving out is huge price gap over the TL and G35. 10k is serious dough and they seem to overlook that fact.
I am sure it drives great but people actually have to live with these cars and that is a major issue to overlook.
Even leaving out is huge price gap over the TL and G35. 10k is serious dough and they seem to overlook that fact.
10-11-2005, 03:09 PM
#76
Outnumbered at home
Originally Posted by gavriil
I dont think the electrical problems made much of a difference. I tested them both two days ago in a closed course as I wrote and there is no doubt the 330i handles better than the IS350 when pushed. And I am no BMW-fan.
Obviously they didn't make a difference the 330 still finished first. I am talking about that in the real world (which i thought Car and driver was focused on vs the race track) a car having major electirical issues and a 10k higher price tag should knock it out of the lead.
Yeah, haven't driven either of the new ones but I am sure they both drive great. No argument there but if C&D want to make these comparo's race track only issues than so be it. But i don't think they mean for that to be the case.
10-11-2005, 08:52 PM
#77
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by 95gt
Obviously they didn't make a difference the 330 still finished first. I am talking about that in the real world (which i thought Car and driver was focused on vs the race track) a car having major electirical issues and a 10k higher price tag should knock it out of the lead.
C/D is more into the driving experience rather which ride is the better overall consumer product.
10-12-2005, 07:07 AM
#78
Outnumbered at home
Originally Posted by F23A4
Sounds like C/D is being mistaken for Consumer Reports.
C/D is more into the driving experience rather which ride is the better overall consumer product.
C/D is more into the driving experience rather which ride is the better overall consumer product.
I agree and I am not trying to compare it to Consumer Reports. Can you honestly say that a better driving experience includes having trouble starting your car and not being able to perform brake tests?
Maybe its just me but that puts a little damper on my driving experience.
I always thought C&D and Motortrend etc were about balance between consumer info and performance info. I always looked to them for info on how the car performs and how it drives and acts on the street, this includes interior and quality issues.
If they want to just be performance than so be it, but I don't want to see their subjective takes on interiors or anything else besides the driving experience.
10-12-2005, 09:52 AM
#79
Senior Moderator
I get your drift and agree with your position in general.
When I read that comparison, I couldnt help but to think that only the IS, G35 and TL (in that order) were cars that I could trust to be pretty reliable.
With the E90, I couldnt help but think that it could have the same subframe problems that the E36 and E46 had. And with the A4, I continue to wonder how soon electrical gremlins will manifest themselves. And while the 9-3 and S60 are well styled decent cars overall, they're overpriced (when optioned well) and depreciate faster than the acceleration of gravity.
When I read that comparison, I couldnt help but to think that only the IS, G35 and TL (in that order) were cars that I could trust to be pretty reliable.
With the E90, I couldnt help but think that it could have the same subframe problems that the E36 and E46 had. And with the A4, I continue to wonder how soon electrical gremlins will manifest themselves. And while the 9-3 and S60 are well styled decent cars overall, they're overpriced (when optioned well) and depreciate faster than the acceleration of gravity.
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