Bye-Bye Roadsters?

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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 02:48 PM
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Bye-Bye Roadsters?

NEW YORK -- Summer's here, and the time is right for buying little two-seat convertibles.

Except for one problem: The bottom has dropped out of America's small roadster market. And the newest open-top twin-seater - BMW's Z4 - may have a much deeper problem than other cars in the segment.

Analysts say buyers are rejecting the Z4's razor-edged looks, causing sales to plummet much earlier in its life cycle than the Z3 it replaced.

The entire niche is in trouble. Roadster sales are down 21.1 percent in the first half of 2004 compared with the year-ago period. In June, the peak of the convertible-buying season, sales were off 20.1 percent from the June 2003 figure.

Some industry experts say that's because the economy has not been robust, and cars such as the Z4, Mercedes-Benz SLK and Porsche Boxster are more sensitive to economic conditions than larger and more expensive convertibles.

Also, with the exception of the Z4, the cars in the segment are old. The SLK and Boxster are in their final model year of sales. The Audi TT, Honda S2000 and Mazda Miata all have been on the market since the 1990s.

"The roadster segment could have had its day," says Steve Saxty, a partner in Powerbrand Associates, a New York consulting firm. "There is a discrete amount of money to buy a $30,000 to $40,000 vehicle. There are alternate options like an SUV or a Mini Cooper if there is nothing attractive in the segment."

The Z4, introduced in 2002, is the surprise loser. Sales of the BMW model have plunged 25.4 percent in the first six months of this year to 7,359 vehicles, and that's with hefty dealer cash on the hood. BMW is offering $3,500 for the 2.5-liter model and $4,500 for the 3.0 version.

The big incentives are surprising considering the Z4's age, says Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting for J.D. Power and Associates in Troy, Mich.

"That is a substantial incentive even in today's world," says Schuster. "I would imagine they did not anticipate the falloff in sales to happen this soon."

Sales of BMW's Z3 roadster ran at about 20,000 units annually during the third, fourth and fifth years of its life cycle, from 1997 to 1999. The Z4 surpassed 20,000 sales last year but began to decline early in its second year.

Saxty says the Z4 should have pulled up the small convertible category, not the other way around. "The Z4 should have stimulated interest to the point that you see a major uplift in that segment," he says. "It should have brought people into that segment."

Analysts put most of the blame for the Z4's early slide on the car's styling.

"It is definitely related to the style direction taken with the product," Schuster says of the sales downturn. "They went out on a limb with the design, and it has an impact on the faster falloff of sales compared to what the Z3 did."

Saxty says BMW may have erred by making the Z4 slightly more expensive than Z3. But he says design is important in the segment. "It is a fashion statement to buy such a product," he says. "The Z4 has controversy and in that segment people do not want to buy into controversy."

Says George Peterson, president of AutoPacific, a consulting firm in Tustin, Calif.: "The Z4 is not particularly pretty. The interior is relatively spartan. The people who bought it initially were able to overlook that, but the vehicle is no longer a fad or fashion, and people have a hard time with it."

Fritz Hitchcock, owner of South Bay BMW in Hermosa Beach, Calif., doesn't think styling is the issue.

"The price point may have something to with it," says Hitchcock, one of the country's top 30 BMW dealers. "They took an aggressive price point on it just like the 5 series. It is substantially more expensive. That may affect sales. It may not be everyone's first car and for a second or third car it may be little pricey."

The Z4 2.5i starts at $34,295, including destination. The 3.0i has a sticker price of $41,595. Before it was phased out, the Z3 2.5 liter was priced at $31,945 and the Z3 3.0i has a sticker price of $38,345.

Hitchcock says there is "not a lot of awareness of the product. They have a big product line and there is not that much public awareness of the product."

Ed Robinson, executive vice president for operations at BMW of North America, also says the Z4's design is not a problem. He says sales are down because the overall roadster segment is off.

And he noted that the car's sales rate was better in June than in May. While the segment was off 20.1 percent during June, the Z4's year-to-year decline was just 4.7 percent.

"This tells me there is a cyclical variation that takes place," says Robinson.

But analysts say incentives are keeping Z4 sales afloat. Although BMW rarely offers large spiffs, the Z4 incentives began last winter, when the vehicle was just over a year old.

BMW put a $1,200 dealer cash incentive on the 2.5i and $2,000 on the 3.0i.

The incentive was increased in May to $3,500 for the 2.5-liter model and $4,500 for the 3.0 version.

Robinson says BMW will continue to offer incentives. He says there is intense competition in the segment as Mercedes-Benz and Porsche run out their models.

"It is still the summer and a good opportunity in the market," he says. "We will maintain an active position in July."

Does it come as a surprise to anyone that the Z4 is doing poorly? Its the ugliest car I've ever seen and the worst of the Bangled BMW's.


Chris Bangle and Andrian Van Hoodonyk
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 02:52 PM
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Hopefully that'll knock some sense into them.

BMW makes a great product but their styling kills me.
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 03:03 PM
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The Z4s styling is ugly at best, but the price they're charging for the thing doesn't help either.

Maybe Acura should bring the AWD Coupe instead of the RWD roadster afterall? Nah!
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 03:06 PM
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Hmm...I coulda told them that the Z4 was a POS even before they released it for public consumption. That thing is ugly as hell.
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 03:20 PM
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Z4? Catfish? Z4? Catfish?

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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 03:35 PM
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Its ugly, no doubt about it....don't know what they will do besides offer the incentives. I hope they learn something from this.
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 04:10 PM
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the Z4 is one of the ugliest roadsters out there, if not the worst

actually i cant think of another ugly roadster
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 04:38 PM
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Get ready for a long needed practical based cars movement. Long overdue IMHO. Hybrid and function will drive the next 3-5 years is my guess.
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by provench
Get ready for a long needed practical based cars movement. Long overdue IMHO. Hybrid and function will drive the next 3-5 years is my guess.
Totally agree... sensibility is coming back around again (oh just had a Rage Against the Machine flashback). Wagons and hybrids, among other changes, are once again grabbing the interest of the public. Higher US gas prices and other economic factors will drive this movement further through the future.

I just wish the roadster market would come back down to earth again. Remember when a roadster could be had at a reasonable price? The only two options for economic roadsters are the MR and Miata, and the Miata, equipped reasonably, isn't the most affordable car anymore. The MR is a sleeper that could have been a hit, only if Toyota would have marketed the car right.

The Z4 just looks awkward, no matter how you look at it. Well, let's see what BMW does with the refreshed design which has bound to be coming soon (the 7 series just recieved one, so it's only fitting).

Junkster, who likes the MR.
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 05:40 PM
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how's the S2000 doing, it competes w/ all those roadsters... the 04 is hot as hell
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Old Jul 7, 2004 | 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Junkster
Junkster, who likes the MR.
I agree, the MR is definitely a decent roadster that needed better marketing.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 01:11 AM
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We'll see when the Pontiac Solstice debuts. If it's any car that'll revive roadsters, it'll be that car...decent styling, competitive price, specs look good (for the price, anyway)...makes me want to have a roadster.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 01:13 AM
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If I could fit in it, I'd grab the Mazdaspeed Miata. Super tossable and cheaper than the S2000.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 01:29 AM
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To truely appreciate the Z4, one most follow the lines with their hand. You have to feel the body of the Z4. Follow the crease lines, and feel the gradual, graceful shifts...follow the gradual curves. This is simply one of the most fun vehicles to wash because of all the unique shifts in body contours. Try it, and then you might appreciate the Z4 for what it is. I know that I have.

On a side note, the interior is a little on the cheap side. The doors don't really sound that solid when they are shut. The plastics in the interior aren't exactly that great. And the dash and door material is really quite strange...it's this weird, firm, roughly-texturized rubber...and the "rollbars" are finished in a plastic titanium (pla-tanium?) trim that I'm just waiting to see scratches on.

But to end on a good note, I can say that I have a true appreciation for the Z4. It's daring. It's unique. The lines may not look right, but they feel oh so right
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 06:53 AM
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price and size

I agree with the dealer about price and about these cars being second or third cars; basically toys for many buyers.

I think they should be as cheap and cheerful as possible, along the lines of the Miata, but a bit bigger than the Miata, so the people who can afford a toy car (including ageing BB's) can get in and out of it, carry two sets of clubs, etc.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SPUDMTN
To truely appreciate the Z4, one most follow the lines with their hand. You have to feel the body of the Z4. Follow the crease lines, and feel the gradual, graceful shifts...follow the gradual curves. This is simply one of the most fun vehicles to wash because of all the unique shifts in body contours. Try it, and then you might appreciate the Z4 for what it is. I know that I have.
Are you related to Chris Bangle

Ugly is Ugly. You expalining that is has lines does'nt change that.

Now if you like the looks thats fine, but don't try explaining how its really good looking if you just give it a chance. Other cars don't ask that of them, only "Bangled BMW's do.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by domn
Ugly is Ugly. You expalining that is has lines does'nt change that.

Bingo. The front of the car I can deal with, it's somewhat acceptable, but the tail is ridiculous (like all Bangled cars), and the side profile is too busy with the "flame surfacing" crap. Come to think of it the front is pretty ugly too. :sqnteek:
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 09:09 AM
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Like the hoola hoop and the Macarena some segments have their fads - for the roadsters apparently the fad is over and BMW is getting hit the worst.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by domn
Now if you like the looks thats fine, but don't try explaining how its really good looking if you just give it a chance. Other cars don't ask that of them, only "Bangled BMW's do.
Domn, you misunderstand. He's trying to say the Z4 is the first car designed especially for blind people.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by domn
Are you related to Chris Bangle

Ugly is Ugly. You expalining that is has lines does'nt change that.

Now if you like the looks thats fine, but don't try explaining how its really good looking if you just give it a chance. Other cars don't ask that of them, only "Bangled BMW's do.
But quite frankly, it was DESIGNED. It was sculpted. It was formed. The designer didn't say "Let's see how UGLY we can make this thing". He made each line with a purpose. And whether or not its pleasing to the eye, it FEELS right. For once, analyze a design beyond what it is to the eye. Follow the lines, carress the curvature. There is more to a design than what the human eye can see.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 10:55 AM
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I really don't want to have to get to third base with a car to discover it's not ugly.

I'd rather have a car that turns heads when it drives down the road.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by majormojo
Domn, you misunderstand. He's trying to say the Z4 is the first car designed especially for blind people.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
I'd rather have a car that turns heads when it drives down the road.
o, it turns heads... just in the opposite direction
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
I really don't want to have to get to third base with a car to discover it's not ugly.

I'd rather have a car that turns heads when it drives down the road.


I'm not denying the car is ugly...I just have an appreciation for its design.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SPUDMTN
The designer didn't say "Let's see how UGLY we can make this thing".
Sure about that?

Originally Posted by SPUDMTN
There is more to a design than what the human eye can see.
I don't know. Maybe its because I never went to art school and because I'm a simpleton but that makes no sense to me whatsoever. Since when do we have to start analyzing car design to come to conclusion that its ugly Do you feel the same way about the Aztek?

I look, I see, I judge. Its that simple, for me anyway.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by domn
I don't know. Maybe its because I never went to art school and because I'm a simpleton but that makes no sense to me whatsoever. Since when do we have to start analyzing car design to come to conclusion that its ugly Do you feel the same way about the Aztek?

I look, I see, I judge. Its that simple, for me anyway.
Well, I won't try to shove my views down your throat (anymore). I guess it just hit me one day as I was waxing a Z4. It was fun. It was interesting to follow the lines. The body surface is like nothing out there. It's not fun to look at--it's fun to wash.

I'm not saying that you should start analyzing all cars like this (or any for that matter). I'm no art-school student, there's just something special about the Z4 that I like. I don't like how it looks, I just like how the body flows and all of its unique curves.

Further, I'm with you. I generally just look and judge. This is the first car that has really made me think about it. Bangle's cars don't look any better...they just make sense to me. Kinda hard to explain, I guess.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by xizor
o, it turns heads... just in the opposite direction
The Z4 turns my head...in sort of a "train wreck" sort of way...it looks horrible but I can't look away. Heck, all those goofy lines remind me of a train wreck too.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 11:19 AM
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It's spud's birthday, maybe he's just tryin' get frisky.

My buddy that just got married is a designer at Boston, and he says there's a simple rule to design:

Keep it simple.

Junkster, who thinks Bangle forgot that rule
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 11:21 AM
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I don't mean to pick on you about this it just seems that everyone who defends these recent Bangle designs has the same argument. That the designs are ahead of their time and styled with function, blah, blah. Thats usually what people say when they try to defend something that is clearly ugly.

I'm tired of hearing about how we "should" like these new Bimmers, as if what we see doesn't matter.

Having said that, I really like the front end of the new 5.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Junkster
It's spud's birthday, maybe he's just tryin' get frisky.

My buddy that just got married is a designer at Boston, and he says there's a simple rule to design:

Keep it simple.

Junkster, who thinks Bangle forgot that rule
BMW Z4 She's got curves and a ghetto booty


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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Martin
I really don't want to have to get to third base with a car to discover it's not ugly.
I nominate this for "quote of the week".
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 01:14 PM
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Although I do like Spuds idea when it comes to Dating and Relationships.

You have to give the girl a bath and scrub her back before you decide if she's the one for you.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by domn
Although I do like Spuds idea when it comes to Dating and Relationships.

You have to give the girl a bath and scrub her back before you decide if she's the one for you.

No, I think what he's saying is you have to find a funny looking one with weird curves and give her a bath before you can appreciate her looks.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by domn
I don't mean to pick on you about this it just seems that everyone who defends these recent Bangle designs has the same argument. That the designs are ahead of their time and styled with function, blah, blah. Thats usually what people say when they try to defend something that is clearly ugly.

I'm tired of hearing about how we "should" like these new Bimmers, as if what we see doesn't matter.

Having said that, I really like the front end of the new 5.

Bangle himself was quoted as saying that the new BMW designs are meant to "challenge" you. His feeling is that he wanted to design a car that would challenge you to find all the intricate details of the car, something that doesn't happen when you look at say, a Camry because it's simple. He's trying to design a car that looks fresh every time you look at it because you notice new details everytime you do. I applaud him for trying to design this way, the problem is that none of his designs have any flow to them; they end up being a convoluted mess of lines and curves that just don't work that well together.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 03:16 PM
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He thinks he's the authority on automotive design. Its his "duty" to challenge us

Someone should run over the prick with a Z4. See how them lines look then.
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 03:17 PM
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exactly, professor...

It's great to challenge the norms and try to examine the far edge of any field... I applaud Bangle for TRYING to extend the boundaries. But obviously, he went over and made a mess of things.

Too many design elements that don't flow with each other will just make a huge mess.

Example of good flow of alot of design elements: Audi TT. there are alot of interesting details and lines throughout the car, but they blend together quiet well.

The Z4 has too many perpendicular lines that don't need to be there, and there is not theme that runs throughout the design of the car to make it cohesive. It's pitiful that BMW design of stoic and solid lines were dimissed for this crap.

Junkster, who hopes BMW turns it around in the next 5 to 7 years
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Old Jul 8, 2004 | 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Junkster
exactly, professor...

Too many design elements that don't flow with each other will just make a huge mess.

Example of good flow of alot of design elements: Audi TT. there are alot of interesting details and lines throughout the car, but they blend together quiet well.

The Z4 has too many perpendicular lines that don't need to be there, and there is not theme that runs throughout the design of the car to make it cohesive. It's pitiful that BMW design of stoic and solid lines were dimissed for this crap.

Junkster, who hopes BMW turns it around in the next 5 to 7 years
I totally agree. To me, the TT is still a fresh and interesting design, even though it's been around since 1998/1999. To me, a truly successful design is one where every detail and line on the car looks like it was well thought out, and that it was placed with purpose in mind. To me the Bangle BMWs have design elements that are placed just to have them, whether they look good or not. The Z4 has always looked like it has enough design detail for 3 cars.
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