Honda has always been #1 in best fleet mileage in the US auto industry, but is rewarded by poor sales for the $50K "luxury" sedan in its "luxury" division. Why not take advantage of this fleet mileage and chuck in a couple of V8 and V10 vehicles, and still enjoy being in among the top fleet mileagers.

It is the true luxury auto makers such as BWM and MB that need to worry because of its huge fleet of V6, V8, and V12 vehicles. But then they don't need to worry because the wealthy buyers are willing to absorb all these environmental costs. BWM has already completely abandon the use of 4-cylinder engines in its US lineup. Even the smallish 1-series is using a V6 as the base engine. MB also has long abandon the use of 4-cylinder engines in all US vehicles larger than the sub-compact B-class. For the new C-class, the base V6 engine is no longer at 2.5L, but now at 3L.

The trend is that luxury vehicles are continuing to grow in engine size and horsepower, irrespect of what CAFE mileage is calling for. Wealthy people who can afford expensive luxury vehicles will treat gas-guzzling tax and even $5 per gallon as nothing compared to what they have spent on their luxo vehicles and the amount of money they are making. It is the average people who buy econo vehicles from the econo brands that are suffering bad from this increased CAFE mileage.

How could I forget such an iconic car?!
Always thought the first gen CL was designed by some guy who just woke up and drew a rough sketch and said "Well this looks like something, I'm going back to sleep".

The new CAFE rules haven't been fully phased in yet. I think producers have reached the point of diminishing returns on more weight and more power in the face of peak oil, whether CAFE was kicked up a notch or not.

Agreed.

I never disagreed with the assessment that Acura needed to do a better job of differentiation from their Honda platforms. I simply said, from the perspective of sales and profits, management at Honda hasn't had the financial need to make any drastic changes. I concur that the RL is not a premier flagship vehicle, I also concur that they needed a V8 ten years ago, I also concur they need to leverage more off their f/r platform such as the S2K, not just make it a one-off vehicle, yada yada.


If I'm reading the CAFE rules correctly ALL consumers will suffer fewer choices in the future because of the new mandates. :yuck:

As much as I want to see Acura succeed, I must say that they've got a loooong way to go.

I didnt want to be the one to say it...

it was an informative post though, just hard to read...

:blahblah:

:dunno: even to this day I find the 1st gen very attractive. 2nd gen on the other hand...plain, bloated, boring...pretty much what Acuras have become.

The MDX is sold elsewhere, outside America under the Honda brand. Like in Australia for example.

Acura started off with a bang, Legend, Integra, and NSX. Then they were stuck on the Honda platforms. Model name change doesn't do it. MDX, 2004 TSX and TL have enough to keep consumers stay on. The new TSX and TL will probably do just barely enough.

Acura leadership is pretty lousy. Let's face it, it's still Honda, based on efficiency and reliability. In most cases, it seems Acura borrows technology from Honda. It should be the other way around.

i know that the legend name is, well....legendary.

but i like the names for the current acuras: RL, MDX, TL, TSX, RDX, etc.

sure it seems like they're just following the masses. but at least they're not using an alpha-numerical naming scheme.

and i bet if they started using words again, people will just complain that they're too similar to honda.

Those are just names.

The product is what counts. Take the "Legend" and "Integra", for example. Great cars made great names. You can rename a pile of dung "Legend", it would still be a pile of dung. You can name a great car "RL", and "RL" would become a great name based on the car it symbolizes.

i agree. but my post was more in response to criticism of the names that i read here and hear at work.

Well look at GM now - a lot better then they were five years ago. Thanks to Lutz some of us would now consider buying a GM (2 Gen CTS). All I know is that under current management Acura isn't making much progress.. Lutz turned Cadillac once again into a tier 1 luxury brand and there's more to come.. So yeah I would consider hiring Lutz who has a proven reputation. Now is this likely -probably not..

"are you crazy" is there something I'm missing here regarding my opinion?? :scratch:

Acura has been out since 1986.. the same year that the Hyundai brand started... Acura was spun off of Honda, while Hyundai started from scratch. You would think Acura would have their shit in order by now :shrug:

You don't hear Hyundai talking about a "huge shift to tier 1 luxury"... but they have a V8 RWD luxury sedan before Acura does... and Hyundai isn't even considered a luxury brand...

Acura is just lost, while those Koreans don't talk the talk, but instead walk the walk...actions do speak louder than words...

IMO, that's a tad harsh. :2cents:

I mark their slow move to inconsequential in 2005, the last year they built the NSX...

Integra? IMO, the Integra hurt Acura's image. It was a nice little car, but it should have worn the Honda badge.

Um...Hyundai starting importing cars in the US in '86. They've been building cars long before that! Just saying!

:werd:

I have to agree. Althought I think the Integra, (esp the ITR) was a wonderful car, the fact that it sat squarely below the industry's "luxury vehicle" standard, ultimately stuck Acura into the "bargain luxury" category; a category they seemingly can't escape.

To make a 'huge shift' to tier 1, they'd need to literally revamp their entire line up; preferrably go RWD with more engine options... think Hyundai, they should do what Hyundai is doing with the BH platform.

You know... what ever happened to that other ridiculous thread about Acura benchmarking Maybach or whatever? This is nothing new from Acura: its just all "puffery" to sucker people into thinking that Acura is a true lux competitor.

Are we talking about the later gen Integras? The first-gen ones were nicer than anything else out there in that class. Maybe not quite BMW but better than Toyota, Honda (except the CRX Si and Prelude), and Nissan. American? Forget it. They couldn't carry the Integra's jock.

I'm talking about the last gen integra (95-01? Not sure about the years).

I mean literally, the interior reminded me of my moms old Accord; the model with after the pop up lights. The dash, clock, window modules looked almost identical.

The first gen integras were a little before my time.

Just like people used to buy :turd: MBs well into the early 2000s when it was glaringly apparent that their QC went down the drain? Your reasoning is correct, but does not apply to the majority of the car market.

I am 6'4" and completly comfotable in my Mazda3. Can't say the same for the Corolla or Civic as i did not fit in either.

A beautiful hypothesis destroyed by a single ugly fact :doh:

But you know what I was getting at :D

See, and the Mazda 3 is a perfectly good example of a car that makes use of relatively small dimensions on the outside, but is quite roomy on the inside. There is no need for that car to get any bigger. However, odds are that the next generation car will get larger and heavier for no real reason at all.

seriously?

i guess because the 6 is going to get bigger?

:dunno:

how disappointing.

When I meant pile of "dung", I didn't mean it from a quality/reliability standpoint...i meant as in "loser" or "runt".

People don't buy MB's because MB's are reliable forms of transportation. Reliability and value is a plus, but as long as the car isn't horrifically unreliable, there's no strike against it. This is what Acura misunderstood and lost after the Legend. People bought the Legend because it was a great car in more ways than just reliability and value...reliability and value was only "extra credit" to add to the reasons why people really spent $40k+ on the car. Honda misconstrued this as people buying the Legend primarily because it was reliable and had value (WAY WRONG!).

That's why the 1G RL is a pile of "dung" compared to the Legend. It's reliable and has value, but it did not have what made the Legend great...it did not stand out in any other way. Same with the 2G RL, it does not stand out in any other way in its market, and it does not even fit in correctly into its market segment which makes it worse. It may be reliable, it may have value, but compared to most of the midluxury market it's a pile of dung and sales prove that.

And that's my point. Had they designed a car that either stands out (in a positive way) or fits in perfectly in its particular market but offers more (such as more reliability or value), then no one would care what the name is, they'd buy it. An example of this...the TL. It fits in PERFECTLY into its particular market segment (where value is important) yet offers more value and reliability than most of the competition. What the hell is a "TL"? Who cares, it's a good car so people buy it no matter what its name.

I think his point is Honda was building AND selling cars in the U.S. a long time before Hyundai started importing cars to the U.S. You would think the one with more experience selling cars in the American market would know what it takes to become a tier 1 luxury brand.

Acura & Hyundai
 

I am one of those who appear to criticize Acura a lot, but my criticism has mostly been going towards the RL.

I guess it was just a coincidence that when Legend became RL, the car design and performance went downhill from there. I guess TL pretty much carried the market segment left from Legend, and it's apparent that Honda/Acura can do the near luxury segment quite well, with its past success with Integra and recent success with TSX and TL.

Frankly, I think it was a mistake to abandon Integra/RSX. Acura may want to go upscale, but they should not do so by abandoning market segment (occupied by RSX and NSX). Now Acura has nothing to go against the likes of A3 and 1 series, and this market will continue to expand given the gas price and upcoming CAFE standards.

Acura should expand their product line to upper tiers, which the RL fails miserably. SHAWD is the one thing that helps, but the RL design and luxury level totally miss the boat by miles.

The MDX, on the other hand, is a great vehicle, especially the 2nd Gen, in terms of design, performance, and features. Even BMW enthusiasts admit it to be on par or slightly better than X5.

RDX is a decent vehicle, but the design isn't appealing, and the use of the turbo is surprising.

Acura needs to get its act together with a NSX successor, a coupe, and a luxury sedan. It's a lot of work, and I'm certain they have the ability, but I'm not certain about their desire/passion.

i think that acura did the right thing by removing the RSX. at the time, was the A3 even available for sale in the U.S.?

if acura wants go after that market, then maybe they'll make a new model. and besides, if they still sold the RSX, what would it be priced at? 20? low 20s?

the A3, at least, will get priced at or near 30, which is TSX territory.

an acura selling at low 20s or sub 20 would further damage the image and brand perception, in my opinion.

i agree that the exterior design isn't noteworthy. but looks are subjective. i know many that like the looks.

the turbo was a surprise, but i liked it. so much that i was hoping (and still hoping) that it will be in the next TSX.

but from speaking with other consumers and salespeople, what really turned buyers away from the RDX was its price and poor gas mileage.

:2cents:

EDIT: and who's the chick in your avy? ( :rofl: that's what people normally ask me...)

(no idea about the avatar, some actress; I know yours is a TV woman; the later trouble with the RSX is that Civic grows in size and performance, and with the Civic Si, but it always sells quite well; it's the lack of a luxury sedan that hurts the brand.)

And here's a little history, on Acura's past success:
http://www.gothamcityinsider.com/200...are-sedan.html

"(in the 1980's...) Indeed, sales of BMW along with Mercedes-Benz and Audi soared as they captured the fancy of the growing number of Americans who could afford more upscale transportation. Japanese automakers, by then firmly entrenched in the U.S. marketplace, took note of the changing buying patterns and began developing vehicle for this new buyer group. However, they found, because they had come from more humble roots of small, inexpensive and, in some cases, spartan vehicles, they opted to form new nameplates with their own car lines and own dealerships to sell their new luxury cars.

Honda pioneered the way with Acura; Toyota launched Lexus and Nissan gave birth to Infiniti shortly thereafter. Initially, critics pooh-poohed the notion of Japanese luxury cars, a phrase no longer an oxymoron.

Almost overnight, Honda's new Acura nameplate became a success, quickly surpassing sales of Mercedes-Benz and BMW vehicles. In its first full year of sales in 1987, Acura had total sales of 109,000 cars. Of those, the flagship Acura Legend sedan accounted for 55,000 sales and the rest were of the smaller Integra, Honda’s insurance policy in case the Legend flopped.

By 1990, Acura was selling 138,000 vehicles, including 54,000 Legends. That same year, Mercedes sold 78,000 cars; BMW and Lexus each sold 64,000. Despite a strong start, Acura hit some bumps in the road. Toyota and Infiniti launched their own luxury marques, waking up German automakers, especially Mercedes-Benz, who countered in kind with new models and new pricing."

Step one to 1st tier luxury brand: Bring back the Legend, in it's own unique frame and body style as well as....

- RWD (w/optional SH-AWD)
- V8 powered putting out at least 300-325 HP
- 6 speed auto in the sedan and 6 speed manual trans. in the coupe
- premium soft leather seats (not the vinyl-feeling stuff they have now)
- a powerful and ear pleasing stereo system along with Navi (think Harmon/Kardon system in BMW's)
- 18" premium wheels standard
- Availability of many types of accessories such as spoiler, lip kits, custom trim packages, etc.

There's obviously more that can be added but I'm too tired to think of anymore right now.

It is my belief that something like this would place Acura back in the game it started in the late 80s/early 90s. :2cents:

^ I don't know what the complaints about the RL's leather stem from. They're very comfortable, after walking around the auto show, I did not want to get out of it.

You try getting two fat American adults and their fat kids in a Mazda3 :)

:pofl: i don't know why thats so funny because its the sad truth.

Tell them to put down the fucking burgers and fries...

Acura all talk, no substance.

When you put it that way it makes it look like they're not even trying *looks at the new RL*, never mind.

So when to you guys think we'll see this "huge shift" in what they are selling at the dealerships ??

2012, 2014, 2016 ??

I think they'll hit rock-ass bottom when the new RL is released. 2015 before they start climbing anywhere again.