hemoglobin23

Hi everyone...I have just completed an install, and all is well, but I have this engine noise that is annoying. When I accelerate, the noise goes up, and from what I can gather from other threads, this is called engine whine, noise, etc.

Anyway, I have followed almost all instructions that have been given regarding this, and I still can't get rid of it...8(

I have the power running on the left side and the RCAs on the right...so I am assuming--if the problem is "parallel" wires is ocurring in the trunk. Anyway, I have tried various positions in the trunk, and I still have noise. I have also read on elitecaraudio that it could be the ground so I grounded my HU to the metal inside the dash (to no avail). However, I haven't done anything with the ground for the amps in the trunk...I have two grounds coming from the same point of contact to each of my two amps...Could this be it? I don't see how this could be harmful, but it got too late so I stopped working on my car tonight.

Well, that's about all I can say about my install. One more thing...do you guys think that the length of power wire could affect noise or not? Also, what about speaker wire issues (parallel to power wire)?

I would appreciate any insight to this issue, and I am sure that there is someone out there that can help...SOUTHBOUND, IGGY, STREETZ!!!! HELPPPPPP!!!! PPPLLLLEEEEAAASSSEEEE!!!!

Thanx in advance...

hemoglobin23

OH YEAH!!! do you think adding a capacitor would help??? Also, how about those noise filters??

2007AcuraRL

Listen, save yourself ALOT of time and effort and just swap out your RCA cables for the newer twisted pair balanced interconnects. Trust me, this will eliminate your problem. When they first came out, you had to make them to size and its a bit tricky and time consuming to solder up the ends. Nowadays they sell them in pre-made lengths so its a no brainer. Heck, my friend with a 98 Accord had engine noise no matter what we did to try and eliminate it. I was an installer for 15 years and even I couldnt get it all out. He ordered some premade interconnects off ebay for not all that much money.

You did all the right things running power on one side and signal on the other. Now just chalk it up to experience and redo your signaling. Bag the RCAs and you will be happy. It will be worth the few hours it might take up to swap it out.

Southbound

hemoglobin,
sorry to hear about your alternator noise.

You've probably already read the thread at the bottom of the current page, but just in case, try reading this thread for a bit more help.

YES, BALANCED twisted pairs will be immune to noise pickup as opposed to unbalanced RCAs. It does depend a lot upon just what you have installed and how you have installed it, etc.

You didn't mention whay your new install entails? Obviously a new power amp... but what about the stock HU and EQ? How are they still wired? Also noise suspectability is much more likely on line level signals verses speaker level output signals. Speaker level outputs have VERY LOW impedance like .1ohm... this keeps them from picking up noise. Line level signals are high impedance, anywhere from 600ohm to 10Kohm. This makes them very vulnerable to crosstalk from other noise sources such as the power line. That is why it is good practice to run the RCAs on the opposite side of the car from the power wire. Speaker runs shouldn't pick up much noise from the power wiring, but I'd still keep any parallel run a few inches apart. DON'T tie wrap them with the power wire to look nice. ALSO use twisted pairs for ALL speaker wires. See my response in the thread above to learn more about balanced vs unbalanced circuits.

Good Luck!
Southbound

Southbound

http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=56180

It would have been nice if I had actually posted the thread that I referred to in my last post. It's the link above.

SB

hemoglobin23

Southbound...thanx for your help...I've been looking for an answer all night, and found that "proper" grounding is key...Well, I kind of don't want to lay wire AGAIN...Man Acuras are a biatch when taking it apart....

My set up is:

Pioneer 7400MP
1 amp for fronts
1 amp for sub...
component speakers in front
coaxial speakers in rear

hmmm...that's about all I can think about...

oh yeah, no EQ.

tuRb0mikEy

Funny. Sounds just like my girl, always b itching as soon as i give it some gas.+

rlarge98tl

I have a 98tl and I had the same problem when I installed my keenwood touchscreen dvd unit, I also have a keenwood single den e.q., and when I installed my capacitor the noise was gone. Just a thougt if nothing else works for you

mikem

Check the terminal connections on you speakers for contact against metal. When I installed my stuff this weekend I heard noise right away and was like wft?! I even went to great lengths to ground ALL my audio equip. at the same point in my trunk thats including my HU, EQ, three amps and 1 farad cap. Rockford Fosgate's website says its best never to ground your HU using the factory ground and if possible ground it at the same place as everything else. Is it coming from All speakers or just some? Disconnect your rca's from your amp and see if the noise remains. If so your speaker or speaker wire is most likely shorted somewhere and you now have that noise being sent out your speaker. But defintely follow the advice of the otheres and get good balanced rca's. Whats the pre-amp voltage of your HU? If its low you may have to deal with noise.

hemoglobin23

rlarge98tl: OMG!!! The glimmer of light I was looking for...I am planning on addding a cap to my system, as well. I hope that will help.

mikem: Thanx for your suggestions. I have tried what you have said (along with like 2000 other possibilities) and I have concluded that maybe there is something in the car that is emitting the EMF...

I cna't wait to try the cap...Has anyone had similar noise elimination after a cap install?

Southbound

A large Cap certainly can't hurt. But again, it depends upon the source of your noise, as to whether or not the Cap will filter out alternator whine. Big Caps are usually used to help keep the voltage from sagging when HUGE current demands are placed upon the Alternator/battery supply. This keeps the lights from dimming, etc. with BIG LOUD subwoofer systems.

If you have the noise/whine WITH NO SIGNAL... meaning that you can hear the whine in the system without the music playing, then I would be surprised if it would cure your problem. Without significant current draw from the amps, the power supply should be clean, and therefore not crosstalk into your amps. BUT THEN AGAIN, ON SECOND THOUGHT, if your cable runs are unbalanced and poorly shielded and/or low level/high impedance sources, then any little hash on the Car's power supply could affect the amps power supply.

SO A CAP CERTAINLY CAN'T HURT... but you could try a cheaper lower capacitance Cap first to see if your trouble is due to small amounts of "hash" on the +12volts. If 2200uF-4700uF caps don't filter out the noise... then a big 1 farad cap won't cure your particular problem either. It will, however, give you a much more stable supply when the AMPS ARE BLASTING!

So you might try that approach first to see if it's worth buying the giant Cap. Unless you want the big Cap for peace of mind, no matter what the result, I'd try something on the order of a few thousand microfarads at 16 volts or higher and see what happens to the noise issue first.

Unless the noise/whine gets louder with the increase in volume, then I don't think a huge Cap will do that much more than a good sized few thousand microfarad Cap would do. If you only hear the noise at NO VOLUME and the music overrides the noise/whine at loud volume... then you have a fundamental problem with wiring (i.e., a ground loop or a balanced line that has become unbalanced, etc.) that a big Cap most likely won't cure...

Just my .02cents... Of course I could be wrong, so if ANYONE else has had alternator whine solved by the use of BIG 1 Farad Caps, PLEASE LET US KNOW the details. I'd love to learn more about their usage.

Good luck!
SB

hemoglobin23

Southbound...great stuff...here is my situation now. After trouble shooting like crazy with my friends, I decided to try a ground loop isolator...It definitely reduced (but did not eliminate) the whine. I did this to only my fronts for now since the rears seemed to have less shine than the fronts to begin with. Anyway, you can notice the volume drop in the front compared to the rears now.

Slight whine remains, but the whine that changed as I accelerated is gone. It is just a low constant whine now. However, the rears, I can still hear the whine pitch change as I accelerate.

Given that the isolator reduced the whine, do you think now that a cap would be benficial in noise ELIMINATION?

Also, the isolator that I used was a cheap generic one. Would results be better with a name brand isolator like scosche? Wal-mart has schosche isolators for $3, but they are out of stock!!!

At this point, I would PREFER to have no isolator, but if I have to, I can live with the isolator "cleaning" the noise a bit. Any better isolators out there?

Anyway, this is where I'm at now, so I hope I provided some more clues to diagnose my alternator whine problem so it can be solved ONCE AND FOR ALL!!!!

Thanx for all your help guys, I really appreciate the constructive advice thus far...KEEP EM COMING!!!! hahaha...

2007AcuraRL

The way to solve it is to change out your RCAs to balanced interconnects. Dont waste the money on a big cap if you dont otherwise need one in your system, and its not a given that it will solve the problem you have anyway.
I know you really dont feel like running new wires, but frankly it will take you less time to just do it and get it done right, than all the running around to Walmart to look for ground loop isolators etc...

hemoglobin23

OK...today I tried and plugged in a discman into my amp and played music, and there was no noise at all!!! So, does that mean my RCAs are the culprits in the noise? If so, would the braided RCAs eliminate the noise?

I am looking at the knukonceptz braided RCAs, but are there any "better" ones that would do a better job at noise elimination?

Thanks guys for all your help.

2007AcuraRL

Thank you for finally listening and taking my advice. I didnt want to see you waste alot of time troubleshooting when the interconnects were the answer all along. And yes, the "knu konceptz" are the ones my friend bought through ebay. I used Phoenix Gold raw cable for my own car and soldered my own ends but that was only because i wanted exact lengths, but the ends are much harder to work with than regular RCA cable so just get the pre-made lengths.

Southbound

The discman having no noise is becasue IT IS FLOATING with respect to GROUND or the CAR'S ALTERNATOR. (I assume you were running it with internal AA batteries, not from a cigarette lighter power supply plugged into the car)

What that tells you is that there is a ground loop or an unbalanced circuit running too long from the HU to the amps. Do as 2002AcuraTl suggests and get some BALANCED lines to feed your amps. By balanced that means that there should be a "twisted pair" of wires inside of a shield. The shield can be connected to ground at ONE end only to avoid the ground loop. Then connect one of the twisted pair wires to the positive signal from the HU and the center pin of the RCA. Connect the other wire in the twisted pair to the negative HU signal and to the body of the RCA. This will keep you BALANCED and SHIELDED all in one cable. It's the only way to go without running into your current problems.

The ground isolator that you are using is connected how??? I'm not familiar with them for car audio... In any case, it's probably either a DC block on the center pin or the ground side of the RCA. They use a cap to block the DC and therefore the DIRECT ground connection. However, too small of a cap will not let the bass pass flatly through your system... and too large of a cap and you don't quite get rid of the noise.

You may have to still try a lot of things... but go with the fundamentals FIRST, before adding band-aids like BIG CAPS and ISOLATORS...

I'm not trying to sound snobby at all, but you have yet to explain how your system is wired??? It sounds like you are a virtual novice to this sort of thing and are searching for easy fixes without knowing the cause and effect of the things you try.

That's cool... NO flame intended... We all have to start out some place. But have you yanked out ENTIRELY the factory HU and EQ? IF NOT, there could be a whole lot of other wiring issues to deal with... (albeit simple ones... see Iggys links in his posts above) How are your signals from the HU in the front dash of the car that feed all the way back to your amps in the trunk being connected. You mentioned that you ran power down one side of the car, and audio signals down the other side. That's a good start... but we need to know MORE if we can truly help you. Are your current RCAs being fed from line level signals out of the OLD/NEW HU? OR are you using the speaker outs of the HU into LOCs to feed the signal back to the amps in the trunk?

It's fundamentals like this that you have never really clarified.

In any case, Good luck with whatever solution you end up with! The beast can be tamed, and you can be satisfied... but it does take the correct combination of wiring techniques.
SB

hemoglobin23

Ok...here is how I have installed my system:

I have a new HU grounded to the chasis, and not through the harness...The RCAs are going directly from the outs on my HU (fronts, rears, and a sub). The RCAs go directly to my amps. There is no noise from the Sub, but I get noise from the fronts...considerably less from the rear speakers than the front speakers.

I rewired the speakers so I have all new speaker wires going from the four front speakers to my four channel amp. The front speakers are components and the rear speakers are coaxial.

I guess that's about it...Also, I have taped off ALL exposed wires that I am not using throughout the install...

Hmmm..I think that's it...

Southbound...do you think that twisted balanced RCAs would eliminate the noise? At knukonceptz site they have plain twisted RCAs and twisted RCAs that are balanced...I am contemplating getting the twisted balanced RCAs. BUT...will these do the trick in eliminating the noise?

Basically, I would like to know if simply changing the RCAs will get the whine out...

Thanx...you guys have been REALLY REALLY helpful...I feel that I am getting very close to a solution the whine...

hemoglobin23

I've been doing some research and some say that shielded cables aren't good...They say that they act like antennae and could actually INCREASE noise...I am TOTALLY confused now!!!

So, does that mean the best signal cables to use are twisted unshielded cables???

2007AcuraRL

I used twisted pair shielded cables, and ended up not even hooking up the outer shield to a ground and i have zero noise. Perhaps the shield itself is keeping noise from getting to the wires. So get the shielded stuff and you may or may not need to ground it.

hemoglobin23

So, does this mean that a twisted cable will eliminate noie from the sound, or does it mean that in particular cases, it is effective? Basically, will it be worth my while to switch to twisted?

Also, I am looking at a few brands of cable, and was wonderinf what is best...I am looking at Knukonceptz, audiobahn, and stinger hypers...Just wondering if anyone has had any expereince with these companies...THANK YOU

Southbound

As 2002 just said above... try some twisted pair BALANCED AND SHIELDED cables. This means that there should be TWO twisted wires inside of a shield and then an unsulation jacket around it all. Like he said, the shield may or may not be needed... depending upon a variety of factors.

TYPICALLY you would want to connect the shield to ground at ONE end only. Connecting it at one end will keep it at ground potential, which means that it will act as a STATIC shield (no current flowing through the shield, but it acts as a shield to prevent noise pickup from crosstalk, RFI, EMI, etc.)

If you connect it to ground at BOTH ends, then you run the risk of creating a ground loop. (This may or may not prove to be a problem in practice... so try both methods if a single ended ground does not help eliminate the noise)

If you leave the shield completely disconnected, then you could possibly run the risk of the shield acting like an antenna and picking up noise and inducing it into the pair of wires inside. This may be what some of the scare stories you have heard stem from. However, the beauty of a twisted pair BALANCED line, is that if the pair of wires are exposed to noise interference, both positive and negative wires are exposed to the same amount of interference because they are both BALANCED and floating by the same amount with respect to ground. Then the physics of twisting wires, which means they continuously cross each other at roughly 90 degree phase angles, makes them NULL out the received noise at the input of the amplifier they feed. So the net result is that the front end of the power amp does not see noise to amplify, even if the cables were exposed to noise fields along their routing. SO the ANTENNA FACTOR is something that I would completely dismiss. Grounding one end of the shield will stop any antenna type action. You may find that one end is better than the other to attach the shield wire to ground. So there may still be some experimentation required.

So, YES! Changing simple center conductor with an outer shield UNBALANCED RCAs... to TWISTED PAIR, BALANCED AND SHIELDED RCAs should help to eliminate your noise. NOTHING is guaranteed, but this is where I would concentrate my energy if I were in your shoes. Try running the RCAs down the center of the car... there's less other wiring in that area, and others have had luck with installations that way. Again, keep them away from all power wires and sources.

If that doesn't work, then grounding techniques might need to be looked at more closely along with what you did to the wires that USED to go to the FACTORY EQ??? The floating factory harness may be a part of the culprit as well.

Good luck!

hemoglobin23

South and 2002 thanx for your help...I will try what you guys have suggested...

Do you know where I could get a good set of the wires you have suggested? Price is definitely a factor, if at all possible...I REALLY hope this will get the noise out...THanx again...

2007AcuraRL

my friend ordered premade lengths from Knukonceptz. He got them throughb eBay but they may also have a website to order from too. He is happy with them.

And yes, as southbound said, you should run the signal cables down the middle of the car. (Dont be lazy, you have to take the center console out to get to the head anyway. it takes all of 5 min. to strip out the center of the car.)

You should be all set.

hemoglobin23

Just curious...but don't I have to take out the seats to get under the carpets of the center console, or is the carpet "multi-piece' so that it is easy to run the wires down the center? Thanx...

2007AcuraRL

You only have to take out the rear seat, not the front two.

hemoglobin23

Cool...I'll look into that...Do you think I should save some money and try using my current wires to see if there still is noise, or do you think that noise is inevitable with the wires that I currently have...Thanx...

2007AcuraRL

Didn't we already discuss this? You asked for advice and we told you what you need to do. The rest is up to you. The cabling you need is not expensive so the choice (although really a no-brainer) is up to you.
Doesnt seem to make a lick of sense to pull the system apart (and the car) unless you are going to swap the cables and FIX the problem.

Over and out.

Southbound

YES, DO BOTH! As 2002Acura just stated... we have already beaten this horse to death. Until you change out the cables and run them down the center of the car, you can't really expect a noise free system with added amplifiers.

If for some reason, this doesn't fix the problem... then we'll cross that bridge when you get to it. We will be here to try and help... but unless you're willing to spend some time and money on the system... you can't really expect us to keep spending our time reiterating the same suggestions.

Over and Out, as well
SB

Southbound

Any luck yet?

2007AcuraRL

OH NO SOUTHBOUND.... you arent trying to resurrect this thread again I hope?!?!?! As we say in the law when the witness is repeatedly badgered with the same question over and over - "you honor I object. Already asked and answered"

Southbound

2002Acura,

LOL, No I don't have that much spare time... Actually I was just trying out a new browser version while looking at the site and wanted to see if it recognized my profile. It was the only quick place I could check to see if my post went through.

You are RIGHT... "Asked and Answered"... Thanks for the support on this thread, I do not wish to revisit the topic unless there are some definite new developments. The worms are back in the can, and I didn't mean to unneccesarily open the lid.

Take Care,
SB

hemoglobin23

Southbound, thanx for your concern...I am still awaiting the cables from knukonceptz...

Man, 2002, I thought you were helping me out here, but can you tone down the bitterness? LOL...I mean, I am totally appreciative of your help in this matter, but if there isn't anything more constructive to say, can you keep your snide remarks to yourself...geez...I am in no way looking for a confrontation, but this forum has been quite helpful to many that browse here, and I seriously doubt cynical remarks help in any way. I'm just trying to make the best of a crappy car (from a crappy car company, I might add).

All in all, I am greatful for your help guys, really...

benzo555

Gosh this is exactly what I am going thru as well. My whinny noise is not that bad but is noticeable. I kinda learned to live with it. But when you turn the A/C it is horrible.

I'll give the Shielded/Twisted RCAs a try as well.

2007AcuraRL

I was just playfully chidding Southbound. He knew I was just joking. Take a look again at his reply to me. There's nothing wrong with a little good natured sarcasm (note the difference between sarcasm and cynicism) amongst friends. Not meaning to offend you at all. Nobody is bitter here or we wouldnt be bothering to try and help you. We just wanted you to take our instructions and get going on it. We will be here if you still have more issues...

DriverWannabe

I had the very same problem with a satellite radio install. A quick trip to Radio Shack got me an in-line noise filter with RCA plugs in/out.

No noise now.

Good luck finding it, but for 21 bucks, it beats re-wirin

2007AcuraRL

the in-line ground-loop isolators work, but only sometimes. In your case, you are luck that it did, and that you dont have to do anything else. I think the originator of this thread tried that 'fix' and had no success with it.

Southbound

agreed,
It's probably an audio transformer to isolate the grounds. It may work for a lot of situations, but it probably degrades the SQ/freq response a bit... Still for $20 bucks, if it's better than the whine, I guess you can't complain. Thanks for mentioning it... it could help some installations such as whatever issue you had encountered.

Southbound

2007AcuraRL

The RCA loop isolators degrade bass response.

benzo555

I also had that and it still had the noise.

Update to all!! I spend the entire afternoon tearing up my interior and rewired my RCA's. Instead of coming thru the right side of the car, I wired the new twisted RCAs thru the center console (as someone suggested) and to the amp.

I was hoping not to use the filter but after wiring the knuconcepts wires it still made the sound but not as loud. By putting the filter with the twisted RCA's my noise is 99% eliminated. I can still hear very lil but by far it has worked.
Now I can enjoy A/C with my stereo!!! Weeee!

Southbound

benzo,
Thanks for the good news update. It is hard to get it to the 100% stage... even concert audio engineering veterans still have some buzz in the PA systems most of the time.

Happy tunes!
SB