RedTSXinWashington

First time poster here... but a long time reader since last summer when (after reading the great information posted here) I bought a new 2006 TSX Non-Nav, tore into the dashboard, ran two sets of RCA wires back to an Alpine Amp in the trunk, then directly wired to Boston Acoustics SX60s in the front (separate tweeter and door) and Boston 6 X 9s in the back.

The sound improved... but, something it still missing. Yes, I know, add a subwoofer in the back, which I plan to do this summer. But here's my question:

In my old cars (79 Civic was a beauty, 93 Honda CRX, 2000 Civic), I installed after-market Alpine head units, and Alpine or Polk speakers all the way around. It seemed that with those systems, I got a lot of "oomph" from the front speakers, including some driving bass. The main sound came from those front speakers, where as the back speakers seemed to just fill in to make the sound more whole.

The new sound "imaging" model seems to be to divide the high's and mid's to the front, then use the back for bass (and subwoofers.) So far, I've found this very unsatisfying. Maybe all these years I got used to having more driving bass in the front -- or I screwed up my installation, or need to adjust my system.

What should I do?

1. The Boston speakers are wrong for the type of sound I want, and I should buy a different speaker (please give a recommendation) that will give me more bass in front.

2. Go back to using the TSX amp to distribute the sound to the Boston speakers according to how the car is made, then use my existing amp for a new subwoofer.

3. Continue with the current BostonSpeakers/AplineAmp set up for the regular speakers, then add a second amp for the sub.

4. Some other solution I have not considered.

5. Deal with the fact that I'm getting old (35), and that sound systems have changed since the time I used to crank Van Halen cassette tapes while delivering pizzas when I was 18. But I do have an I-Pod connected to the TSX!

Thanks for any responses, and for all the advice I've used thus far to improve my car's system. I'll throw in my tidbit of advice:

When I installed the front speakers, I literally "punched out" the paper speakers that came with the car from the plastic casing, but left the plastic mold in tact. I then screwed the new speakers into the plastic casing, then "snapped" it back into the door frame. Sure beat cutting molding out of wood -- but now you'll tell me that's the root of my lack of bass in the front, huh?

Thanks!

belcom

iTrader: (1)

Getting a good aftermarket headunit would make much difference. I started off by adding a subwoofer to my stock bose system in my CL. Sub overpowered the stock speakers. Then I had all speakers replaced and running off of a nice 4 channel. And still it didn't sound right. When I put in a new Alpine deck the difference was night and day. I actually started enjoying the music in my car. I spent waaay more that originally intended however I am very happy with the results.

Reach

Problem is, you can't replace the TSX stock HU. You can add a second HU, but its completely unnecessary. IMO, re-invest in a stronger 4 chan amp/speaker combo to all 4 doors, ignore the 6x9s complete, in fact, take them out!

Then, repurpose your amp with a sub in the trunk to fill in the bass. Done right it doesn't matter where you put the bass.

Make sure to check out this thread here on wiring!: https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/correct-way-bypass-tsx-audio-amp-360946/#post5283595

Jeff_B

It is your system, so the most important thing is that you are satisfied. If you don't like the way it sounds using the recommended setup, you should definitely do something else. With that said, you should be getting pretty good bass in the front unless there's a problem.

I just upgraded to DLS 225 5.25" coaxial speakers in front and am using the factory amp, and am very satisfied with the bass response from those speakers. With 6.5" and an amp, you should definitely be getting better bass response than me. So you might need to mess around with the amp or head unit a bit to get it to sound the way you want.

Also, when you installed the speaker into the bracket, were there any gaps between the speaker and the bracket? Personally I would've used the bracket from http://www.millionbuy.com/aihsb518.html so I didn't have to butcher the OEM speakers.

Reach

Yes, I am using those brackets for my infinity 6.5" speakers in all 4 doors and they fit perfectly. Just attach the speakers to the plastic spacers and snap in, no need to mangle anything.

mercman

What Model Alpine amp do you have and how did you wire it up to the factory HU? The TSX does not use standard line level audio signals it has a balanced/differential output. If you use an amp without a differential input you will be shorting ½ of your audio drive to ground. This can kill your SQ.

I’m like you, I do not like systems with subs I prefer old fashion full range channels. You can get good bass out of the door speakers but you have to start with a speaker that can actual produce the lows. Some 61/2 are designed for use with a sub and roll off pretty fast. The polk 6500 in my TSX are decent but the Alpine SPX177 in my wife’s Subbie blows them away (price wise too). I wish I had them in the TSX.

jeff

RedTSXinWashington

Jeff --

First, thank you for your reply. And, especially, for the valuable information you posted about going around the TSX amp! I have it book-marked on my browser, and I'm sure hundreds of people are benefiting from your expertise that you will never hear from -- but I'm sure they are appreciative.

However, the last post I have found from you about the balanced output of the HU said you were still investigating ways to make it work with an unbalanced amp. I still have not found a posting in which you outline how to do that (which is likely my fault for not knowing enough of how to navigate the chat room.) If you did post that information, a link or paste would be greatly appreciated. Did you find an answer to the BALUM availability?

If I can get those front speakers you mentioned that will give me at least some bass in the front from the factory amp, I think that's the way I'm going to go. My only hang up is that I've already got the car wired for the amp in the back -- thus if there is an easy solution to the balanced/unbalanced problem that I can install by the amp in the trunk (instead of tearing the dash and car doors open again), then I might just do that instead.

After reading your posts, I checked the box and specs for my Alpine MRP-F450 4-channel amp... and could not find anything about it being "balanced" -- so I'm guessing it fits in the majority of the amps that are unbalanced. You mentioned a JBL amp that is balanced. Any other balanced amp recommendations?

Most of all, thank you for your valuable help to all of us -- and your specific posting to help me. Greatly appreciated!

mercman

The Alpine MRP F450 is the amp I have in the Wife’s Subbie driving the SPX177A’s. I think it a good amp but unfortunately not equipped with a differential input. The good news is (assuming we can come up with a BALUN for you) you have a good set of Eq’s on the amp. If I remember correctly the rear channels has a bass EQ to boost the bass at lower volume levels. Since there is no law that says you have to drive the rear speakers with the amps rear channels, you can swap the amps F/R channels so that the amps rear channels are driving the front speakers. This way you can switch on the bass boost and have the extra bass go to the front door instead of the rear deck.

I’m still thinking of making a BALUN but I have been busy working on a “no-splice” amp bypass harness for the TSX. If I do put a BALUN together would you be interested in testing it for me? The parts for a basic 4 ch passive unit would be about $30 to $40.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words!

jeff

vidgamer

Usually the front speakers will go low enough in bass so that you won't perceive all of the bass from coming from the rear. The flipside of this is that you don't want the rear speakers to play a lot of upper-bass, mostly lower. I don't recall if mercman or others have posted what the rear 6x9 crossover is, but personally, I think there's a good balance -- I'm getting a lot of bass from the fronts, but nothing real low, and the rear 6x9s perform that duty nicely.

So, I think part of the original poster's problem is maybe running full frequency range to the rear 6x9s, where the stock system only sends the bass back there.

A quick patch would be to wire the rear speakers with a passive crossover to roll off the high frequencies, although many amps already have a low-pass crossover.

As for whether or not gaps in the front speaker mounting is causing a lack of bass, I guess you could disconnect the 6x9s and just listen to the fronts. There won't be LOW bass, but you should get bass guitar sounds clearly, etc.

RedTSXinWashington

Jeff--

Testing the balum, or whatever you come up with, sounds interesting and fun. I'm in. I tried to send you a "private message," but apparently the chat room does not allow me to do that. So, if you have that privilege, please send me a private message of how to get a hold of you, and where to send a check when you get it done. (I will be out of touch from Monday, May 14 to Tuesday, May 22. But after May 22, I'll be ready to dig into my system again.)

That's a good idea about reversing the front and rear speakers on the amp. I'm just worried that my Boston SL60s in the front (45Hz - 20kHz) are not made for the bass I want from them.

(By the way, I've seen some of the discussion regarding 2 ohm v. 4 ohm speakers, which I really don't understand. But I just noticed that my front Bostons are 3 ohm (rear SX95s are 4 ohm). If that's the case, do I need to make an adjustment for that?)

I've looked at the specs for the Alpine S (35 - 30k), which, if I understand this correctly (a good chance I don't) would give me more bass than the Boston SL60s. But since they are so cheap ($99), I'm worried that they're not any good. But the Alpine R ($149) have specs of 65-27, which I believe means I'd get less bass out of those than I would my existing Bostons. Is that right?

If I have all that mixed up, I ask all you posters out there to please be kind in your responses. I'm very interested in how all this stuff works -- but still learning.

Thanks!
Matthew

RedTSXinWashington

In response to Vidgamer's post:

You put your finger on why I think I have a problem... When I turn the fader to just the front speakers, there is no bass at all. Just mids and highs.

I've played around with all the adjustments on the Alpine amp, but haven't figured out a solution. But with each trial and error, I learn more. Hopefully the lack of bass is the balanced-unbalanced problem Jeff identified, and that my lack of bass in the front speakers can be fixed by that. The bass cranks pretty good for the rear speakers, to the point of vibrating much of the car if I go really loud. But it still does not sound good with no bass at all in the front.

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions.

Matthew

vidgamer

If you have bass for the rear, which is also using the same unbalanced signal, why doesn't the front have the same bass? (I mean, you could swap wires and should have bass in the front and no bass in the rear, if I understand your description correctly, but I must be missing something. Have you tried swapping the amps output channels front-to-back to see if there's any difference?)

Have you checked Jeff_B's concern of gaps around the speaker? If bass leaks past the edges of the speaker (generated from the rear), it'll cancel out the bass coming from the normal forward part of the speaker. I don't think it has to be completely airtight, but I know some people have gone to great lengths to make it so; I did on my last car, but I think it was overkill -- just don't have any obvious gaps or air leakage.

I'll say that my front speakers have NO low bass, but it's what I'd call "upper" bass. I've not tried to figure out where the cutoff is, but it does sound thin when I remove the rears. It will not play the low bass from techno and such. But the bass guitar, etc., is strong in the front, so it still sounds like the bass comes from the front, while the rear fills in the sound. Like you, I wondered if it could be that your speakers just don't go deep enough for your tastes? But 45Hz! That is plenty deep. I'd be happy if the rear 6x9s were rated to go that low. If the specs are correct, I don't think it's your problem.

With an aftermarket amp, I don't think you have to worry about the 3ohm rating. It'll just play louder with less power. If you go with less than 4ohms on the stock amp (or most headunits), it may cause the amp to overheat and shut down.

mercman

Just so I’m clear about how this is connected. You have disconnected the factory amp and you are feeding your Alpine amp from the balanced audio signal off the blue 14 pin connector, correct? Or are you feeding the Alpine with the speaker level signals from the out put of the factory amp?

In any case, the rear 6x9s general can produce more bass the speakers mounted in the door. There are a number of factors involved in producing deep bass, here are a few.

Check that you have no air leeks. Use some gasket material around spacer. Plenty of good info on this on the site.

Check that the speakers are in phase + to +, - to -.

If you are using the signals from the 14 pin make sure you didn’t switch the +/- on any of the channels.

jeff

Jeff_B

For gasketing, you can use self adhesive rubber foam weatherstripping. They sell it in 10-foot rolls at Home Depot for like $3.