TLluver

I have to admit when it comes to audio, I know nothing!...so I figured maybe you guys could help me out ...I want some hard hittting bass...so , I was thinking I need a pair of 12" subs(JL maybe), a bandpass box, and a good amp...is this correct? I don't want to spend a lot of cash, but I don't want crap either...can anyone help me out in suggesting some components for what I want. Thanks

Brewboy

If your just looking for component suggestions, you'll end up getting lots of answers varying in price and such. Maybe first you should answer some ?'s to narrow it down for us. What type of music? How much trunk space are you willing to give up( dimensions would help), including amp mounting? Can you build the box and install yourself or pay somebody to do it, or do you want a premade box? Are you willing to modify your car in any way? And most importantly, what is your budget for sub(s), amp, wiring, sub box, and installation if applicable?

TLluver

Well first off I did some research and spoke to a friend of mine who does auto audio installations and he suggested for what I want, I should get two 12" Kicker Solo Baric subs, Sony Xplod subs or Rockford Fosgate subs (I wanted 12" JLw3 subs but he said the JL subs would be more of a hard thumping bass and not as clear as the Kicker,Sony,or RF subs) along with a bandpass box with the portholes on top. As far as an amp, he suggested to get a Sony Xplod amp(said to stay away from a Rockford Fosgate Punch amp cuz it gets too hot and should be used only in open spaces like a hatchback) and a Rockford Fosgate crossover. He also said that I would need a converter for the RCA cable or something. He said he would install it all for me for only $40, cuz were pretty tight friends. So does this setup sound good to you guys who know about audio systems.

Brewboy

If you want JL, then just wait for Austin to chime in with the info as he is familiar their specs for box sizes and amp rec's.

preludeshfan

i hate to sound like a broken record in here but have you seen my Power mouse boxes? my 2 10' actually hit harder than a pair of 12's. and they play a lot lower than a regular box would. i have a bandpass design made to fit the trunk of a TL perfectly and you can trick it out with your own logo etched in the plexiglass and choose your own color. i have several reviews that people have written about this box. the last customer i sold to said they hit harder than some 15's he heard with 2 times the power he is running. my subs handel up to 1000 watts but were designed to work in my boxes. i have pictures on my site at www.rmscaraudio.com the whole setup including subs is currently 650 with a 2 year warranty. next month i am raising that price to 700 also i sell amps to fit the dual amp racks at whole sale prices to my customers.
let me know if this is of any interest to you. so far i have had 100% customer satisfaction thease new computer built boxes are just plain awesome sounding. they play a flat responce from 27-110 hz with some amazing SPL.

TLluver

Well I have narrowed it down to two subs: (2) 12"Sony Xplod XS-L1235 subs or (2) 12" Kicker Comp VR subs!! The Kicker Solobaric 12" L5 or L7 is just too expensive for me. Either of the two subs above should give me good hard clear bass anyway, which is what I really want. I am pretty sure I am going with the Sony Xplod XM-3001sxd 1000W amp. Also I found a R/T dual 12" sealed enclosure that fits the trunk of our TLs pretty well(fills up the area under the window and sits almost flush where the trunk meets the window). I want to know if anyone has heard either the Sony Xplod or Kicker Comp VR subs and if there is a big difference in sound quality and bass pounding? I could save alot of money if I go with the Sony Xplod subs...If there isn't that much of a difference I will get them as long as they do the job. I mean I just want to get good clear bass, not looking to enter a car show or anything...Sorry this is so long, but I am really in the dark about car audio and would love some comments or suggestions from you guys who know about this stuff. Thanks

asiankidd

i swear i live by this quote now..."band pass is for cheap subs trying to get the most out of it.....sealed box is the way to go for the best bass with a good driver!" i say go sealed box...makes a difference!!!

Austin519

TLluver:
Wow there are a lot of opinions in here...hope I don't drown Although Brewboy you can go to hell (hee hee j/k) yes I love JL, always have...always will...and I will always run JL and only JL in my car, and for good reason. I got your PM and will respond to that but I thought I'd post here too. The first question would of course be what is your budget. The second is are you going for SPL or SQ? The third is how much trunk space can you give up? Brewboy was good in asking those (man after my own heart, high five ) I'll go into detail with you over PM, but about what your friend said...I won't bash him because he's your friend but...

"Kicker Solo Baric subs, Sony Xplod subs or Rockford Fosgate subs "

The solo barics are IMHO nothing special in terms of subs. They're average subs in their price range. That's looking at the Thiele Small parameters. However, considering that Kicker subs are not for shoddy build quality...then I wouldn't go with them. I don't even want to open my mouth about Sony, I'd be going on forever. But to put it simply...everything Sony makes is crap! All of it...subs amps the works. All bark and color, no bite. The only reason audio shops even push those is because they get good money from Sony to do so. Stick with Sony at home, JL in the car. Rockford subs are SPL subs, not SQ subs...they're all boom, no quality. So there are two reasons I don't highly respect your friend's car audio judgment. One, just about everyone will agree that JL subs are clearer than RF, period. Two, for the clearest sound across the spectrum, by clear I assume non colored, or enhanced (frequency boosted), you'd want to go with a good sealed box. Bandpass is for those who are targeting a specific range, or band, or sound, hence the name...it passes a band of sound that it was tuned for, with sharp dropoff on either side of the spectral wave. Rockford amps don't get altogether too hot...yes they run warm...but so do most high power amps out there. All I run is RF amps. And lastly, RF makes terrible crossovers...they never seem to cross at rated...I've actually analyzed it on the computer before.

preludeshfan:
Don't mean to argue or butt heads but...

"my 2 10' actually hit harder than a pair of 12's"
your two 10's hit harder than your two 12's? Or than what 12's? 12's that are similar in your price range?

"they play a flat responce from 27-110 hz with some amazing SPL"
I assume you're using leap or WinISD or some variant right? I have yet to see it physically possible for a bandpass box to do in the 25-100 Hz range of FLAT response...I don't think it's possible bud, I have yet to see it done. But hell I could be wrong...just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean jack...show me the spectral analysis graph, I'd be interested.

asiankidd:
"i swear i live by this quote now..."band pass is for cheap subs trying to get the most out of it.....sealed box is the way to go for the best bass with a good driver!" i say go sealed box...makes a difference!!!"
Oh really? Hmmm....funny I won local and regional IASCAs with 3 12w6's in a 4th order bandpass....heh heh heh . Bandpass is for those who know how to build and tune bandpass boxes and plan on only wanting a strong band of bass...aka those that have good component speakers to take care of midbass. Bandpass will always out-SPL ported, which will always out-SPL sealed, with little exception. And the argument that bandpass and ported aren't as good SQ as sealed is bologney too...you just have to build and tune them right...

TLluver check your PM's

Austin519

TLluver

Austin519, no offense taken about my friend, this is why I PM you...thank you, I trust your opinion more than his...you really know what your talking about, now let me check my PM.

Austin519

TLluver:
Well I hope I know what I'm talking about...glad you think so.

Austin519

StreetEffectz

Austin, I disagree....with what, I'm not sure

preludeshfan

ok since you asked me let me retract and clarify. in a standard alignment (out of car) my box has a frequency responce from 39-110 that is almost perfectly flat. in a car however you know that frequencies below 50 get boosted by 12db approximatly. now givin that info it is also impossible to determin the actual frequency responce in "car's" in general because the airspace in each type of car is different. but my software adds a 12db per octive cabin gain to the frequency responce curve to simulate what the expected out put would normally be at this link you can see a comparason of my single 10" box and the brand x woofer is a 12" fosgate woofer in a sealed box with the same power applied and also in car responce. although my frequency responce is not flat in the car anymore due to cabin gain it does have significantly more gain than the sealed example. (more than 6DB at some points)


as far as SPL with my 2 10's yes it playes significantly louder than any 12" subs i have ever heard in a sealed or ported box with equal power applied.
my customers say it plays louder than they have heard some friends of theirs systems that have 15's and 2 times the power. and from my experience i would say that is accurate in most cases. 15's can get damn loud but any sub has to be in the right type of box for the application.
i agree with you about JL subs they have always been my favorite. i still like them. but i decided if i am going to pay the money to make a sub then im not going to waste it making somthing like a JL sub or any other sub in it's class (im not talking W7 subs) it has to be better and significantly better or why bother. feel free to see my products page and you will find my specs for the subs at www.rmscaraudio.com

oh and BTW over the last several months i have come to realise your knowledge in car audio and respect it. glad your in here helping others out. it is not often that i run across anyone who knows anything techniocal about car audio. some day i would really like to get your opinion from listening to a box of mine.
where do you live? i have 2 customers in the state of NY i think you guys are from there am i wrong? i would like to send a customer of mine to you for you to take a test drive of my box. i would be interested to hear what you have to say about it.

Austin519

StreetEffectz:
Ha ha ha well tell me what and I'll make sure to play it off Heh heh...I guess I should put IMHO { } with that whole post in brackets eh?

preludeshfan:
"the brand x woofer is a fosgate woofer"

What type of RF sub?

And that flat response...are you doing that in an acoustically dampened room...or are you neglecting the 3dB room gain?

"i agree with you about JL subs they have always been my favorite. i still like them. but i decided if i am going to pay the money to make a sub then im not going to waste it making somthing like a JL sub or any other sub in it's class (im not talking W7 subs) it has to be better and significantly better or why bother."

Actually you showed me the thiele small parameters and I ran them. Not bad . In fact I'd be interested to hear the setup sometime. Put it up against a good set of 12" IDQ's, 12" Focals, and 12" Kove Audio Armageddon Z Series and see how they sound .

Austin519

Austin519

preludeshfan:
"with equal power applied"

I guess this is the key ingredient of your comparison then. You're just saying that your subs have a higher sensitivity (inside the box you built) than any other sub out there. That doesn't exactly equate with being the loudest, hardest hitting, or anything. That's usually running the sub at P(max)...and measuring...you're just talking about dB sensitivity I assume?

Austin519

StreetEffectz

LOL, I actually don't disagree at all, just figured I'd throw that in there

TLluver

OK , back to my problem please! ...seriously Austin519 has been helping me out in PM and I think I'm almost there in selecting the subs and amp(JL and RF old style)!!

asiankidd

yo austin you scare me!!!!!! you should make the PERFECT subs for the tl to replace that **** 9 inch bose sub...im sure you got the brains for it... heheh good job dood!!! your one of a kind!!!

TLluver

Austin519 check ur PM, please!!

preludeshfan

no actually i can choose a power level to compare the 2 subs it does not have to be P max
and if you know anything about subs ahd thele small parameters (and i am sure you do) you will find that she sensitivity rating means pretty much nothing for subs because thoes ratings are at a 1 khz test tone. not the frequencies we play subs at. in fact i have heard this from both my sub manufacturer and my subwoofer software tech support. it really does not mean 1 sub is significantly louder than another with a lower rating the fact can be totally opposite when your in the bass reigon. in fact JL audio talks about this and has a comparason on their website.

and yes the box does provide some gain but even in the same box my subs have a little more output that most subs due to the fact that i have a light weight aluminum voice coil and a light weight cone. much more efficient than a heavy cone. also i have a 3 inch voice coil and it stays cooler than subs using a 2 inch coil ie JL, fosgate, mtx, ect. so with a larger voice coil and an aluminum voice coil, ie the windings and former are aluminum the coil stays cooler than a kapton coil former thus keeps resistance lower and allows more power to be delevered to the sub from the amp.
also notice the BL product of my sub i have a stronger magnet than most (again more efficiency)
i know people are skeptical about some guy on the board that has his own subs.. they may say "how smart can he really be?.. his subs are not a name brand i have heard of.."
my answer is simply every good sub gets started someplace they dont just appear, if JL can make a good sub why can't I?
i mean it's not rocket science. if you learn a lot about audio as i have over the last 15 years of stereo installations and you seek the help of a professional to help you solve a problem and make a good sub then why it can't be realised that my subs are that good?

Austin519

StreetEffectz:
Heh heh heh...yeah trying to distance yourself from me eh? Don't want to admit we have so much in common eh bud? Ha ha I wouldn't want to either

TLluver:
I sure will. I may start posting onto this forum if my replies get too long...I had to split the last PM into 3 PMs so well ...but I'll tell you in email if I want you to go back here instead of PMs.

preludeshfan:
Before I start I want to make sure you know this is just a scholarly argument...I am in fact very interested in hearing your subs...the thiele small parameters you gave me look good...and your box looks sweet.

The reason why I said with what you were saying then a better comparison would be at Pmax is this quote from what you said.

"my 2 10' actually hit harder than a pair of 12's. and they play a lot lower than a regular box would...the last customer i sold to said they hit harder than some 15's he heard with 2 times the power he is running."

Okay so you stated that your 2 10's hit harder than a pair of 12's. So I guess what needed to be specified was "at the same power level". That's all I was saying.

My second point was just "what subs are you comparing it to." Because quoting a customer who said they hit harder than 15's with twice the power...with all other things being equal your sub would have to have something like 2.5x the Xmax for that to be true. Which led me to ask exactly what type of subs you were comparing yours to.

"you will find that she sensitivity rating means pretty much nothing for subs because thoes ratings are at a 1 khz test tone."

That's exactly right...which is why I've seen sensitivity tests usually at 50Hz. Is that an official rated number?
No...but "sensitivity" in and of itself isn't really either. That's supposed to be measured with 1W at 1 meter in an acoustically dampened room...but a 50Hz tone should be sufficient for comparison.

"and yes the box does provide some gain but even in the same box my subs have a little more output that most subs due to the fact that i have a light weight aluminum voice coil and a light weight cone."

Well of course just comparing light weight cone's doesn't mean much. If it did then all paper cones would have higher output than yours.

Also I have never seen the voice coil weight as a significant factor. Not only that, but I wonder about your voice coil for a few reasons, all of which you stated. In a pure electromagnetic physics sense...aluminum has 62% of the electrical conductivity of copper. That means that coil for coil, you have to have (1/.62-1) or 61% more aluminum to conduct as well as copper. Now that would be fine...but the molar mass of copper is 63g, while the molar mass of aluminum is 27g. So you'd end up having a little less aluminum than you would copper. Even so, your aluminum's torus radius would be wider, thus leading to a weaker electric field with equally wound coils of aluminum and copper. Worst of all, coils heat up...and the thermal conductivity of copper is about 1.7 times that of aluminum, so the coil you've just created which is slightly lighter not only has a weaker electric field at the center but dissipates heat worse. I can do the physics equations to find out exactly how much aluminum you'll need to get the same field in the center of the coil as copper, but eyeballing it, it should be about the same.

You say you use an aluminum former and windings...so what do you have between the windings and the former? Obviously you have to have something...otherwise the coil would be shorted. JL used 3M Kapton because it can be made to have high thermal conductivity and extremely low electrical conductivity, while being nondisruptive to the fields induced for the coil. You can't just mention the Kapton former, which was explicitly made by 3M with specific parameters for, without mentioning that your aluminum conducts heat much worse.

Just to point out...none of JL's subs have a 2" voice coil...the w0's are 1.38" and the w1's are 1.5"...and on the next tier the w3's are 2.25" and the w6's are 2.5"...but of course even the 15w6's can be had for around $200 apiece...so none of these subs are in the price range of the ones you're selling. I assume you're measuring your 3" diameter voice coil from the outside...but of course as I said in a setup like this if it was possible to have a .000001" diameter that would yield a stronger electric field and thus would be preferable to a larger diameter.

"also notice the BL product of my sub i have a stronger magnet than most"
Just because you have a stronger permanent magnet doesn't mean anything if the coil, which is the dynamic driving force of the sub, isn't up to par. And as usual, what do you define as most?

As for the brand name sub vs. your sub I entirely agree. I think you have a good sub and wish you the best of luck. Hell I would love you to kick the crap out of JL, or any of those other brands out there. The only point I am trying to make is you have to state all the facts in the comparison, and also people like JL Audio have made so much money from word of mouth and brand name buying that they can invest quite a bit into R&D...going so far as to have 3M form custom Kapton for them.

But again, I can't wait to hear them

Austin519

preludeshfan

[

hey no offense from me i know your just asking and i am trying to provide answers. it is expected.
as for the cone they are paper cones and treated with a resin to make them very stiff.
when i refer to most subs i dont think i am trying to name any brand in particular so let me be more clear. i refer to thease subs as the typical run of the mill sub that is in the same price range as mine that use the standard stamped steel baskets and 1.5-2.5 inch coils
as for the voice coil i am told by the manufacturer that the aluminum colis get a larger gauge wire but in the end the weight of the aluminum coil is still less than copper. you asked about the windings. they are coated with a varnish much like magnet wire so it effectivly has an insulation on it to prevent it from shorting. all magnet wire to my knoledge is made in this way. and i belive if aluminum conducts heat better the air passing through the pole peice and around the windings will cool the coil off more effectivly? no? irreguardless the larger coil has more surface area to disapate heat so i know it is cooler running than a smaller coil. speaking of heat on a coil my manufacturer has a special glue that he claims costs him 2800 bucks a quart that has the same melting point that the coil would reach if it were able to actually burn the wire up.
and in my defence about kapton verses aluminum i cant really comment. i am not a sub expert. i have never manufactured a sub personally i am giving you what i think i remembered my manufacturer telling me about the coil i could be off on a few facts as i dident actually hand select the materials used but was rather educated on some construction methods used in my subs and their purpose and function. the aluminum coils subject is fresh in my head at the moment because i talked to my manufacturer 2 days ago about constructing some 8" subs for a new design i am going to build and introduce. i remember asking him what coils we ended up using and he said he couldent remember off hand which one we used in the final design so i apologise i dont know for sure exactly if they were aluminum or copper and what the former is made from exactly but i could find out if you really needed to know i dident know i was going to get questioned this heavily when i wrote that it was my assumption. i was under the impression we used aluminum because i remember weight was an issue we were fighting because of the r & d i did i had problems getting the frequency responce i needed until we went with a lighter coil and cone and sourrouned assembly. i dont know if you have ever designed a sub before and if i knew absolutly every fact about subwoofer construction methods i would probably be building subs not subboxes. think the weight of the coil is minimal but every little bit helps right?
i have found that the key ingreidient to any good sub is different types of glue that can hold up under heat. the manufacturer says that out of 15,000 coils he has put into subs he has had about 2 come back burnt up. also after assembly the subs are run for 4 hours contunous with 400 watts rms applied using a test signal of pink noise with a long duty cycle. and this burn in test is done in FREE AIR.
the BL product is actually measured at the specified value so i am confused as to what you mean by using aluminum coils verses copper. the bl product is what the bl product is and i am saying it is on the high side as far as most subs go. i can see that you are quite the supercomputer when it comes to facts and figures and physics.
as for the price your talking internet prices i belive last i checked a 10W3 was like 250 bucks retail and a W6 was almost 300. for my subs having 2 times the xmax and 3 times the power handeling i woud say it is a good price not to mention that the construction of my sub is a little meatier with the frame and terminal connections. also another thing i like about my subs is the tinsel leads are woven into the spider to keep them from slapping the cone. also i have dual spiders 1 on top of the other. this provides better linar control over the coil and better alignment in the gap. (or so i am told)

your quite> Okay so you stated that your 2 10's hit harder than a pair of 12's. So I guess what needed to be specified was "at the same power level". That's all I was saying.

My second point was just "what subs are you comparing it to." Because quoting a customer who said they hit harder than 15's with twice the power...with all other things being equal your sub would have to have something like 2.5x the Xmax for that to be true. Which led me to ask exactly what type of subs you were comparing yours to.

can i just say that the box hits really damn hard for a pair of 10's?
im just using things i have heard withought trying to be technical. im trying to find a way to express as accuratly as i can how the box sounds. if i throw in all kinds of technical info people wont have a clue what i am talking about. in fact i would be suprised if anyone has read any of what we are talking about this far.
i can only say that the box has mad SPL which is expected from a bandpass box. and as an added bonus it is very tight , accurate and solid sounding box. thease comments came from a manager of a local car audio shop i happen to know. this manager is a popmus ass in the car audio world. he thinks he is a real audiophile and would jump at the chance to say somthing bad about anything he dident know anything about. he is a big fan of some of the expensive name brands you mentioned and he himself was very impressed with the sound of my boxes. he has heard both the single and dual 10 box on my factory TL system. he said it was the best sounding box he had heard in a long time and couldent belive my single or dual 10 for that matter could make that much bass.
my point is a compliment from him is worth more than gold to me.

Austin519

preludeshfan:
Whew you post posts as long as I do ...and I haven't read your reply yet...but I want to go ahead and make a correction to my previous post. When I was talking about the weight of the voice coil(s) not affecting the sub any...what I SHOULD have clarified was respective to the magnetic field force that the coil is experiencing. Magnetic fields in this type of setup are orders of magnitude greater than simple inertial "force".

"they are coated with a varnish much like magnet wire"
Right, I was referring to the material used..what did you use? Again I was vague, apologies.

"and i belive if aluminum conducts heat better the air passing through the pole peice and around the windings will cool the coil off more effectivly? no? irreguardless the larger coil has more surface area to disapate heat so i know it is cooler running than a smaller coil."
No, aluminum is a much poorer heat conductor than copper, that's why I'm worried about your thermal dissipation, and thus performance over time. You are right, because the coil is larger (as would need to be because it is aluminum) it has a larger extermal diameter and I would assume larger internal as well. That does mean more heat dissipation, but not enough to be comparable to copper.

"speaking of heat on a coil my manufacturer has a special glue that he claims costs him 2800 bucks a quart that has the same melting point that the coil would reach if it were able to actually burn the wire up."
Hmm...never heard of the glue...what does he use it for in the sub? The melting point of Aluminum is about 1200 degrees F give or take a few...but 2800 bucks a quart? Wow. Does he use an eyedropper when applying it ?

"i dont know if you have ever designed a sub before and if i knew absolutly every fact about subwoofer construction methods i would probably be building subs not subboxes."
I'm nowhere near a sub expert either...don't worry. You've given me plenty of facts as is I'm more than satisfied! And personally I think you build damn good sub boxes so I don't see why you would want to switch over!

"think the weight of the coil is minimal but every little bit helps right?"
Of course it does, a lighter coil and cone will give you quicker response...but if you're making the coil lighter by sacrificing copper for aluminum....mmm I dunno. It will definitely be cheaper to build though using aluminum. You could go all out and make them out of gold...but well, I guess that's just something to dream about. About your paper cones...I'm also a bit curious...most manufacturers are going with some sort of petroleum based cone for the simple fact that resin treated paper "dies" quicker, and that you have cone flex which shortens the life of your sub. Is there any reason you didn't go with another material? Heh...carbon fiber!

"i can see that you are quite the supercomputer when it comes to facts and figures and physics."
Being a comp. engr. in college helps, that and I love this stuff. If I'm not mistaken...BL (Force Factor) =(2*pi*[fs]*[Mms]*[Re]/[Qes])^(1/2)...or in simple terms is the flux density of the magnetic field times the length of the coil in the magnetic field (in Telsa * meters). So your Force Factor depends upon the magnets you have in there yes...but what causes the cone movement is the energizing and de-energizing of the voice coil...so having a larger BL may or may not make up for having a poor magnetic field from the voice coil. I'm a little rusty on my BL, it's been a LONG time since I've even heard anyone refer to it, so I may very well be missing something.

When you say your subs have 2x the Xmax...how are you measuring? Full pass? Or one way linear?

"also i have dual spiders 1 on top of the other. this provides better linar control over the coil and better alignment in the gap. (or so i am told)"
That's true...two spiders make it harder for the cone to de-align than one.

"can i just say that the box hits really damn hard for a pair of 10's? im just using things i have heard withought trying to be technical. im trying to find a way to express as accuratly as i can how the box sounds. if i throw in all kinds of technical info people wont have a clue what i am talking about. in fact i would be suprised if anyone has read any of what we are talking about this far. "
Ha ha yeah you're probably right...and yeah I understand that. I guess I just needed some technical meat...to satiate myself I've already answered TLluver's Q's anyways I think. That and now spouting out all this stuff with me you sound pretty damn convincing about your subs, which is a good thing! I think that's really it for me man...thanks

Austin519

preludeshfan

"and i belive if aluminum conducts heat better the air passing through the pole peice and around the windings will cool the coil off more effectivly? no? irreguardless the larger coil has more surface area to disapate heat so i know it is cooler running than a smaller coil."
No, aluminum is a much poorer heat conductor than copper, that's why I'm worried about your thermal dissipation, and thus performance over time. You are right, because the coil is larger (as would need to be because it is aluminum) it has a larger extermal diameter and I would assume larger internal as well. That does mean more heat dissipation, but not enough to be comparable to copper.
now you got me curious i will ask next time i talk to him and find out for sure which kind we were using.

speaking of heat on a coil my manufacturer has a special glue that he claims costs him 2800 bucks a quart that has the same melting point that the coil would reach if it were able to actually burn the wire up."
Hmm...never heard of the glue...what does he use it for in the sub? The melting point of Aluminum is about 1200 degrees F give or take a few...but 2800 bucks a quart? Wow. Does he use an eyedropper when applying it ?

i dont know how he applys it but im sure none is wasted. he claims that he discovered this stuff about a year ago. it is used to attach the voice coil to the cone and spider assembly. i guess quite a lot of heat can make it's way to thease areas and this typically where subs fail. i also think but i am not sure that it may be used to glue the windings to the former of the coil. i can see this being a high heat and high stress part.

"i dont know if you have ever designed a sub before and if i knew absolutly every fact about subwoofer construction methods i would probably be building subs not subboxes."
I'm nowhere near a sub expert either...don't worry. You've given me plenty of facts as is I'm more than satisfied! And personally I think you build damn good sub boxes so I don't see why you would want to switch over!
yea i hope eventually i can find myself having my own facility where i have a cnc router machine likethey use to make cabinets and other wood working stuff. cutting each box by hand on a table saaw is not too bad but i would love to see this business go from me being a factory worker for my own company and start acting like a CEO with my feet on a desk.

"think the weight of the coil is minimal but every little bit helps right?"
Of course it does, a lighter coil and cone will give you quicker response...but if you're making the coil lighter by sacrificing copper for aluminum....mmm I dunno. It will definitely be cheaper to build though using aluminum. You could go all out and make them out of gold...but well, I guess that's just something to dream about. About your paper cones...I'm also a bit curious...most manufacturers are going with some sort of petroleum based cone for the simple fact that resin treated paper "dies" quicker, and that you have cone flex which shortens the life of your sub. Is there any reason you didn't go with another material? Heh...carbon fiber!

i think it is a petroleum based product as i remember him saying somthing like that about them. all i know is they are pretty stiff and durable for a paper cone. i was impressed like most people skeptical at forst about it but after i got to see in person they were nothing like any paper cone i expected. much stronger than h thought.

"i can see that you are quite the supercomputer when it comes to facts and figures and physics."
Being a comp. engr. in college helps, that and I love this stuff. If I'm not mistaken...BL (Force Factor) =(2*pi*[fs]*[Mms]*[Re]/[Qes])^(1/2)...or in simple terms is the flux density of the magnetic field times the length of the coil in the magnetic field (in Telsa * meters). So your Force Factor depends upon the magnets you have in there yes...but what causes the cone movement is the energizing and de-energizing of the voice coil...so having a larger BL may or may not make up for having a poor magnetic field from the voice coil. I'm a little rusty on my BL, it's been a LONG time since I've even heard anyone refer to it, so I may very well be missing something.

well i hope i have impressed you as well with my knowledge, not bad for a guy who never passed the 9th grade and never went to HS and got a GED the following year after 9th grade. i have never been to colledge but have taken class at ITT tech for a degree in EET never was able to finish due to working a crappy job at the time but im making some damn good money now as a software test engineer for worldcom. i make more money than the programmers do with a BS degree. (i was told not to tell anyone at work )

When you say your subs have 2x the Xmax...how are you measuring? Full pass? Or one way linear?

:wow: 1 way linear mine is 16.9mm and i belive a W3 is 11 or 12mm? maybe not quite 2 times but definitly more. and i dont know what JL has for Xmec but mine is 22.9

"also i have dual spiders 1 on top of the other. this provides better linar control over the coil and better alignment in the gap. (or so i am told)"
That's true...two spiders make it harder for the cone to de-align than one.

"can i just say that the box hits really damn hard for a pair of 10's? im just using things i have heard withought trying to be technical. im trying to find a way to express as accuratly as i can how the box sounds. if i throw in all kinds of technical info people wont have a clue what i am talking about. in fact i would be suprised if anyone has read any of what we are talking about this far. "
Ha ha yeah you're probably right...and yeah I understand that. I guess I just needed some technical meat...to satiate myself I've already answered TLluver's Q's anyways I think. That and now spouting out all this stuff with me you sound pretty damn convincing about your subs, which is a good thing! I think that's really it for me man...thanks

BTW last night TLlover Immed me and after about 2 hours on the phone he is getting a Power Mouse from me!
all he needs to do is figure out what to put on the covers
thanks for the conversation i enjoyed it and i have mad respect for your knowledge. my problems with education in my younger days is that she schools taught too slow for me. i learned things too fast and got bored easily. i was what we now call a gifter learner but i hated being at school i got teased a lot because i was so smart. it is nice to talk to someone who is on if not above my level for a change.

TLluver

I want to thank Austin519 and preludeshfan for all there help and in answering all my questions. Both of them know alot(and I mean alot)about car audio. They were telling me things that I could'nt even comprehend at times, but very interesting and I learned alot. If anyone is considering getting a system, I strongly suggest talking to preludeshfan(Kevin) or Austin519 first. Well I have made up my mind, finally!! I've decided to go with the advice of preludeshfan and get one of his power mouse boxes. Heres what I'm getting exactly: two RMS 10' 1000w subs(made in same wharehouse as Eclipse subs, very high quality), one MTX thunder 6500D amp, one MTX thunder 4244 amp(sweet ass amps), one RMS power mouse dual 10' bandpass box with custom etched design on both windows and any color LEDs to backlight it all(nothing like it, best design I've ever seen), three cable converters, one capacitor, all the required cable, and all pre installed by Kevin himself!!...not to mention he has spent over three hours on the phone with me at his expense, nicest guy ever!! BTW guys, this box fits the TL perfectly...check it out on his site www.rmscaraudio.com, go to the installs section. I should have the complete box, in about 4 or 5 weeks...can't wait!!

preludeshfan

thanks and i enjoyed talking to you. and im looking forward to getting you set up.

Austin519

preludeshfan:
"BTW last night TLlover Immed me and after about 2 hours on the phone he is getting a Power Mouse from me!
all he needs to do is figure out what to put on the covers
thanks for the conversation i enjoyed it and i have mad respect for your knowledge. my problems with education in my younger days is that she schools taught too slow for me. i learned things too fast and got bored easily. i was what we now call a gifter learner but i hated being at school i got teased a lot because i was so smart. it is nice to talk to someone who is on if not above my level for a change."

Hey man that's badass! Congrats I enjoyed the conversation too, and believe me I definitely have respect for yours as well. Hell...if you want to help me design a (parameter wise) almost totally impossible box let me know! I'm Austin519 on AIM, I'd love to have a realtime conversation with ya. Get some ideas and advice. And I'm not sure about the on or above your level bud You give me too much credit I believe.

TLluver:
Sounds like a good setup. My only Q dude...why MTX amps...is that your suggestion preludeshfan? Because personally those amps are far from my first choice...FAR from it.

Austin519

TLluver

To be honest Austin519,they will serve my purpose with more than enough rms wattage, they look badass, they are good quality, and they are not too expensive.