Instructions for install shop on preamp output
06-05-2005, 08:33 PM
#41
Someone stole "My Garage"
Anyone know the RMS power of the stock amp? Not peak power (unless that's the only number you can find).
Specfic to each set of speakers would be best.
Going from 2 12's and 1400 watts of power in my little Integra, to stock everything in the TSX is gonna be a change. I'm thinking of finding some shallow-mount free-air 8's to put in the rear deck and putting some nice components in the front speaker locations, but I need to know what kind of "power' I'm working with here. ("Power" in quotes as the OEM systems won't even hold a candle to my current system, LOL).
Thanks,
~Eric
Specfic to each set of speakers would be best.
Going from 2 12's and 1400 watts of power in my little Integra, to stock everything in the TSX is gonna be a change. I'm thinking of finding some shallow-mount free-air 8's to put in the rear deck and putting some nice components in the front speaker locations, but I need to know what kind of "power' I'm working with here. ("Power" in quotes as the OEM systems won't even hold a candle to my current system, LOL).
Thanks,
~Eric
06-05-2005, 09:25 PM
#42
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I would estimate it at 18 W x 8 (in fact, I have: )
It's just two deck-power IC's... no power supply at all. Terrible damping factor, rolloff in the low bass, etc.
What you are talking about works best if you upgrade the amp... but it's easier to find an efficient 6x9 (like the avincar ones I have made) than an efficient freeair 8".
I am NOT a fan of 6x9''s, but a set of the MB Quarts woofs or the Genesis woofs running as subs and a set of F components sounds pretty damn good.
Is your car an 04 or 05?
It's just two deck-power IC's... no power supply at all. Terrible damping factor, rolloff in the low bass, etc.
What you are talking about works best if you upgrade the amp... but it's easier to find an efficient 6x9 (like the avincar ones I have made) than an efficient freeair 8".
I am NOT a fan of 6x9''s, but a set of the MB Quarts woofs or the Genesis woofs running as subs and a set of F components sounds pretty damn good.
Is your car an 04 or 05?
06-06-2005, 07:16 AM
#43
Someone stole "My Garage"
Originally Posted by elduderino
I would estimate it at 18 W x 8 (in fact, I have: )
It's just two deck-power IC's... no power supply at all. Terrible damping factor, rolloff in the low bass, etc.
What you are talking about works best if you upgrade the amp... but it's easier to find an efficient 6x9 (like the avincar ones I have made) than an efficient freeair 8".
I am NOT a fan of 6x9''s, but a set of the MB Quarts woofs or the Genesis woofs running as subs and a set of F components sounds pretty damn good.
Is your car an 04 or 05?
It's just two deck-power IC's... no power supply at all. Terrible damping factor, rolloff in the low bass, etc.
What you are talking about works best if you upgrade the amp... but it's easier to find an efficient 6x9 (like the avincar ones I have made) than an efficient freeair 8".
I am NOT a fan of 6x9''s, but a set of the MB Quarts woofs or the Genesis woofs running as subs and a set of F components sounds pretty damn good.
Is your car an 04 or 05?
Are you saying 18 watts RMS per channel? Also, what is the scoop on the "Avincar" speakers you made? Specs and price?
Thanks!!
~Eric
06-06-2005, 11:40 AM
#44
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Specs, as I have stated before, are interesting...
Regardless of what HU manufacturers have printed on their boxes and brochures, Ohm's law states that if you have 12V and you have 4 ohms, you get around 3 watts at 1kHz (in the easy-to-play midrange). This was often called 8-12W "peak" on low-power HU's.
If you take two of these and bridge them into 4 ohms, you can get around 8 watts at 1kHz continuous power. If you want more than that, you need less than 4 ohms or more than 12V. It's not my idea, it's the law of physics.
Now, those are continuous ratings, but not full range power ratings (20 Hz to 20kHz). The bass is harder to play, not as much power there.
But the car stereo world has no Fed regulation about watt ratings (or anything else). If you called that amp 25W in the home audio world, technically, you would be breaking Federal law (although I'm sure there's no enforcement nowadays). But in the car audio world, calling it 25W peak became the standard in the late 1980's (Alpine used to have principles and called their HU's 18W instead of 25W, but that didn't play well in Circuit City where the gear has to sell itself, so Alpine sold out too and got out the stickers).
Now many HU's say they will do 35, or 45W (peak). A couple have big yellow power wires that are supposed to go straight to the battery, and use a kinda cool amp power supplydesign inside, and those are the closest to being real amps.
But the TSX OEM amp doesn't do that. It uses TWO high-power 4-channel deck IC's inside, pretty standard ones, and 12V internally, and if those IC's were inside an aftermarket HU the box would probably say 35 or 45 W per channel peak, but the real analysis if you are comparing it to an external amp is that it's an 18WPC at best, max, and above that, it's got distortion to beat the band.
To go above that 12V bridged power level, you need a power supply inside that takes 12V and steps it up to a higher voltage (or lower impedance speakers, hence the Bose speaker impedances on many but not all systems). The TSX amp doesn't have that inside - it's pretty obvi once you take it apart. Hence, I know it doesn't do any more than 18W PEAK. I also know that those IC's carry current poorly, and have a low-frequency rolloff - their power output is less in the bass. I haven't tested it, because it's a waste of time, but I know that that's what happens at higher power outputs.
As far as 6x9's go, if you can find a set of RCE269's on eBay, snap them up. I have hoarded like 3 sets just for the woofers.
The Avincar 6x9's have a resonant frequency of 45 Hz, a Qts of 0.6, an Xmax 1-way linear travel of 3.75mm, and a 100W power rating when a sub-bass filter is used at like 30-35 Hz.
I can make up a frequency response rating like every other speaker maker... let's see, when I put in in the car and played pink noise and measured with the RTA, I saw output at 20Hz, so let's say that they play from 20Hz to 200Hz, and that I don't rate them above that since they are designed as a woofer only. Now would I say that they are FLAT down to 20 Hz? Hell, no. That's why frequency response ratings by manufacturers are almost useless (they are only beneficial if they give a deviation, like +/- 3dB, and if they are the result of actual testing. Tweeters can be useful with those tests...)
The voice coils are capable of all 100W electrically, but you can take an infinite-baffle woofer with today's pop music and today's amps bass boost features, and reach its excursion limits first. Personally, I have run this woofer on a 75W x 4 amp, and I thought it sounded great at low and medium volumes, but with the windows down and the sunroof open, the volumes I reached would sometimes cause a "poinky" sound that the MB Quart rarely made, and that the Genesis rarely makes. That's why I'm using it mainly in OEM upgrade systems - it's efficient enough to add a lot of bass to those systems without ever reaching its sonic excursion limits.
The travel is so long, and the Qts is where it is, for better infinte-baffle performance. If your speaker won't travel very far, it's better for it to be in a ported box, not no-box-at-all, and the Qts is a description of of whether your speaker sounds "dry" or "boomy". When the speaker is in a car, the QTS is different, just like when a sub is in a box in a car, the Qts is different... but .6 gives a pretty good sound for an infinite-baffle woofer. The number actually refers to the aspect ratiuo of the resonant peak. 0.707 is considered perfect for the finished system, but many drivers are lower than that since they are not tested in car, and many designers think that a lower Qts sounds better - leaner, more analytical, tending towards the dry if you go too far.
When you see a mid/tweet set with a very low Qts (think 0.3) it will probably NOT sound good in a door, but in kick panel enclosures it could sound amazing.
But enough about speaker theory... : )
Regardless of what HU manufacturers have printed on their boxes and brochures, Ohm's law states that if you have 12V and you have 4 ohms, you get around 3 watts at 1kHz (in the easy-to-play midrange). This was often called 8-12W "peak" on low-power HU's.
If you take two of these and bridge them into 4 ohms, you can get around 8 watts at 1kHz continuous power. If you want more than that, you need less than 4 ohms or more than 12V. It's not my idea, it's the law of physics.
Now, those are continuous ratings, but not full range power ratings (20 Hz to 20kHz). The bass is harder to play, not as much power there.
But the car stereo world has no Fed regulation about watt ratings (or anything else). If you called that amp 25W in the home audio world, technically, you would be breaking Federal law (although I'm sure there's no enforcement nowadays). But in the car audio world, calling it 25W peak became the standard in the late 1980's (Alpine used to have principles and called their HU's 18W instead of 25W, but that didn't play well in Circuit City where the gear has to sell itself, so Alpine sold out too and got out the stickers).
Now many HU's say they will do 35, or 45W (peak). A couple have big yellow power wires that are supposed to go straight to the battery, and use a kinda cool amp power supplydesign inside, and those are the closest to being real amps.
But the TSX OEM amp doesn't do that. It uses TWO high-power 4-channel deck IC's inside, pretty standard ones, and 12V internally, and if those IC's were inside an aftermarket HU the box would probably say 35 or 45 W per channel peak, but the real analysis if you are comparing it to an external amp is that it's an 18WPC at best, max, and above that, it's got distortion to beat the band.
To go above that 12V bridged power level, you need a power supply inside that takes 12V and steps it up to a higher voltage (or lower impedance speakers, hence the Bose speaker impedances on many but not all systems). The TSX amp doesn't have that inside - it's pretty obvi once you take it apart. Hence, I know it doesn't do any more than 18W PEAK. I also know that those IC's carry current poorly, and have a low-frequency rolloff - their power output is less in the bass. I haven't tested it, because it's a waste of time, but I know that that's what happens at higher power outputs.
As far as 6x9's go, if you can find a set of RCE269's on eBay, snap them up. I have hoarded like 3 sets just for the woofers.
The Avincar 6x9's have a resonant frequency of 45 Hz, a Qts of 0.6, an Xmax 1-way linear travel of 3.75mm, and a 100W power rating when a sub-bass filter is used at like 30-35 Hz.
I can make up a frequency response rating like every other speaker maker... let's see, when I put in in the car and played pink noise and measured with the RTA, I saw output at 20Hz, so let's say that they play from 20Hz to 200Hz, and that I don't rate them above that since they are designed as a woofer only. Now would I say that they are FLAT down to 20 Hz? Hell, no. That's why frequency response ratings by manufacturers are almost useless (they are only beneficial if they give a deviation, like +/- 3dB, and if they are the result of actual testing. Tweeters can be useful with those tests...)
The voice coils are capable of all 100W electrically, but you can take an infinite-baffle woofer with today's pop music and today's amps bass boost features, and reach its excursion limits first. Personally, I have run this woofer on a 75W x 4 amp, and I thought it sounded great at low and medium volumes, but with the windows down and the sunroof open, the volumes I reached would sometimes cause a "poinky" sound that the MB Quart rarely made, and that the Genesis rarely makes. That's why I'm using it mainly in OEM upgrade systems - it's efficient enough to add a lot of bass to those systems without ever reaching its sonic excursion limits.
The travel is so long, and the Qts is where it is, for better infinte-baffle performance. If your speaker won't travel very far, it's better for it to be in a ported box, not no-box-at-all, and the Qts is a description of of whether your speaker sounds "dry" or "boomy". When the speaker is in a car, the QTS is different, just like when a sub is in a box in a car, the Qts is different... but .6 gives a pretty good sound for an infinite-baffle woofer. The number actually refers to the aspect ratiuo of the resonant peak. 0.707 is considered perfect for the finished system, but many drivers are lower than that since they are not tested in car, and many designers think that a lower Qts sounds better - leaner, more analytical, tending towards the dry if you go too far.
When you see a mid/tweet set with a very low Qts (think 0.3) it will probably NOT sound good in a door, but in kick panel enclosures it could sound amazing.
But enough about speaker theory... : )
06-06-2005, 11:41 AM
#45
Thanks elduderino! I used this thread to upgrade and add an amp! Everything works fine! The colors on my wires were different on a few, but the plug location was the same.
Now I just need to figure out how to tap in to the XM/Aux input.
BTW- I am currently using my 6x9's as full range! Using a 10" sub in a box for lows.
Now I just need to figure out how to tap in to the XM/Aux input.
BTW- I am currently using my 6x9's as full range! Using a 10" sub in a box for lows.
06-19-2005, 11:53 AM
#46
Intermediate
Pioneer in the trunk
Originally Posted by elduderino
Specs, as I have stated before, are interesting...
Regardless of what HU manufacturers have printed on their boxes and brochures, Ohm's law states that if you have 12V and you have 4 ohms, you get around 3 watts at 1kHz (in the easy-to-play midrange). This was often called 8-12W "peak" on low-power HU's.
If you take two of these and bridge them into 4 ohms, you can get around 8 watts at 1kHz continuous power. If you want more than that, you need less than 4 ohms or more than 12V. It's not my idea, it's the law of physics.
Now, those are continuous ratings, but not full range power ratings (20 Hz to 20kHz). The bass is harder to play, not as much power there.
But the car stereo world has no Fed regulation about watt ratings (or anything else). If you called that amp 25W in the home audio world, technically, you would be breaking Federal law (although I'm sure there's no enforcement nowadays). But in the car audio world, calling it 25W peak became the standard in the late 1980's (Alpine used to have principles and called their HU's 18W instead of 25W, but that didn't play well in Circuit City where the gear has to sell itself, so Alpine sold out too and got out the stickers).
Now many HU's say they will do 35, or 45W (peak). A couple have big yellow power wires that are supposed to go straight to the battery, and use a kinda cool amp power supplydesign inside, and those are the closest to being real amps.
But the TSX OEM amp doesn't do that. It uses TWO high-power 4-channel deck IC's inside, pretty standard ones, and 12V internally, and if those IC's were inside an aftermarket HU the box would probably say 35 or 45 W per channel peak, but the real analysis if you are comparing it to an external amp is that it's an 18WPC at best, max, and above that, it's got distortion to beat the band.
To go above that 12V bridged power level, you need a power supply inside that takes 12V and steps it up to a higher voltage (or lower impedance speakers, hence the Bose speaker impedances on many but not all systems). The TSX amp doesn't have that inside - it's pretty obvi once you take it apart. Hence, I know it doesn't do any more than 18W PEAK. I also know that those IC's carry current poorly, and have a low-frequency rolloff - their power output is less in the bass. I haven't tested it, because it's a waste of time, but I know that that's what happens at higher power outputs.
As far as 6x9's go, if you can find a set of RCE269's on eBay, snap them up. I have hoarded like 3 sets just for the woofers.
The Avincar 6x9's have a resonant frequency of 45 Hz, a Qts of 0.6, an Xmax 1-way linear travel of 3.75mm, and a 100W power rating when a sub-bass filter is used at like 30-35 Hz.
I can make up a frequency response rating like every other speaker maker... let's see, when I put in in the car and played pink noise and measured with the RTA, I saw output at 20Hz, so let's say that they play from 20Hz to 200Hz, and that I don't rate them above that since they are designed as a woofer only. Now would I say that they are FLAT down to 20 Hz? Hell, no. That's why frequency response ratings by manufacturers are almost useless (they are only beneficial if they give a deviation, like +/- 3dB, and if they are the result of actual testing. Tweeters can be useful with those tests...)
The voice coils are capable of all 100W electrically, but you can take an infinite-baffle woofer with today's pop music and today's amps bass boost features, and reach its excursion limits first. Personally, I have run this woofer on a 75W x 4 amp, and I thought it sounded great at low and medium volumes, but with the windows down and the sunroof open, the volumes I reached would sometimes cause a "poinky" sound that the MB Quart rarely made, and that the Genesis rarely makes. That's why I'm using it mainly in OEM upgrade systems - it's efficient enough to add a lot of bass to those systems without ever reaching its sonic excursion limits.
The travel is so long, and the Qts is where it is, for better infinte-baffle performance. If your speaker won't travel very far, it's better for it to be in a ported box, not no-box-at-all, and the Qts is a description of of whether your speaker sounds "dry" or "boomy". When the speaker is in a car, the QTS is different, just like when a sub is in a box in a car, the Qts is different... but .6 gives a pretty good sound for an infinite-baffle woofer. The number actually refers to the aspect ratiuo of the resonant peak. 0.707 is considered perfect for the finished system, but many drivers are lower than that since they are not tested in car, and many designers think that a lower Qts sounds better - leaner, more analytical, tending towards the dry if you go too far.
When you see a mid/tweet set with a very low Qts (think 0.3) it will probably NOT sound good in a door, but in kick panel enclosures it could sound amazing.
But enough about speaker theory... : )
Regardless of what HU manufacturers have printed on their boxes and brochures, Ohm's law states that if you have 12V and you have 4 ohms, you get around 3 watts at 1kHz (in the easy-to-play midrange). This was often called 8-12W "peak" on low-power HU's.
If you take two of these and bridge them into 4 ohms, you can get around 8 watts at 1kHz continuous power. If you want more than that, you need less than 4 ohms or more than 12V. It's not my idea, it's the law of physics.
Now, those are continuous ratings, but not full range power ratings (20 Hz to 20kHz). The bass is harder to play, not as much power there.
But the car stereo world has no Fed regulation about watt ratings (or anything else). If you called that amp 25W in the home audio world, technically, you would be breaking Federal law (although I'm sure there's no enforcement nowadays). But in the car audio world, calling it 25W peak became the standard in the late 1980's (Alpine used to have principles and called their HU's 18W instead of 25W, but that didn't play well in Circuit City where the gear has to sell itself, so Alpine sold out too and got out the stickers).
Now many HU's say they will do 35, or 45W (peak). A couple have big yellow power wires that are supposed to go straight to the battery, and use a kinda cool amp power supplydesign inside, and those are the closest to being real amps.
But the TSX OEM amp doesn't do that. It uses TWO high-power 4-channel deck IC's inside, pretty standard ones, and 12V internally, and if those IC's were inside an aftermarket HU the box would probably say 35 or 45 W per channel peak, but the real analysis if you are comparing it to an external amp is that it's an 18WPC at best, max, and above that, it's got distortion to beat the band.
To go above that 12V bridged power level, you need a power supply inside that takes 12V and steps it up to a higher voltage (or lower impedance speakers, hence the Bose speaker impedances on many but not all systems). The TSX amp doesn't have that inside - it's pretty obvi once you take it apart. Hence, I know it doesn't do any more than 18W PEAK. I also know that those IC's carry current poorly, and have a low-frequency rolloff - their power output is less in the bass. I haven't tested it, because it's a waste of time, but I know that that's what happens at higher power outputs.
As far as 6x9's go, if you can find a set of RCE269's on eBay, snap them up. I have hoarded like 3 sets just for the woofers.
The Avincar 6x9's have a resonant frequency of 45 Hz, a Qts of 0.6, an Xmax 1-way linear travel of 3.75mm, and a 100W power rating when a sub-bass filter is used at like 30-35 Hz.
I can make up a frequency response rating like every other speaker maker... let's see, when I put in in the car and played pink noise and measured with the RTA, I saw output at 20Hz, so let's say that they play from 20Hz to 200Hz, and that I don't rate them above that since they are designed as a woofer only. Now would I say that they are FLAT down to 20 Hz? Hell, no. That's why frequency response ratings by manufacturers are almost useless (they are only beneficial if they give a deviation, like +/- 3dB, and if they are the result of actual testing. Tweeters can be useful with those tests...)
The voice coils are capable of all 100W electrically, but you can take an infinite-baffle woofer with today's pop music and today's amps bass boost features, and reach its excursion limits first. Personally, I have run this woofer on a 75W x 4 amp, and I thought it sounded great at low and medium volumes, but with the windows down and the sunroof open, the volumes I reached would sometimes cause a "poinky" sound that the MB Quart rarely made, and that the Genesis rarely makes. That's why I'm using it mainly in OEM upgrade systems - it's efficient enough to add a lot of bass to those systems without ever reaching its sonic excursion limits.
The travel is so long, and the Qts is where it is, for better infinte-baffle performance. If your speaker won't travel very far, it's better for it to be in a ported box, not no-box-at-all, and the Qts is a description of of whether your speaker sounds "dry" or "boomy". When the speaker is in a car, the QTS is different, just like when a sub is in a box in a car, the Qts is different... but .6 gives a pretty good sound for an infinite-baffle woofer. The number actually refers to the aspect ratiuo of the resonant peak. 0.707 is considered perfect for the finished system, but many drivers are lower than that since they are not tested in car, and many designers think that a lower Qts sounds better - leaner, more analytical, tending towards the dry if you go too far.
When you see a mid/tweet set with a very low Qts (think 0.3) it will probably NOT sound good in a door, but in kick panel enclosures it could sound amazing.
But enough about speaker theory... : )
Pioneer in trunk say' pioneer?
2005 TSX No Navi.
06-19-2005, 12:53 PM
#47
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bb, most of your posts don't make any sense to me, so I don't have any idea how to respond to them. All sarcasm aside, with some more words maybe I would understand better.
06-20-2005, 08:15 AM
#48
Intermediate
Pioneer box in trunk
Originally Posted by elduderino
bb, most of your posts don't make any sense to me, so I don't have any idea how to respond to them. All sarcasm aside, with some more words maybe I would understand better.
Check out how it's mounted. http://www.handa-accessories.com/tsx/08L96.pdf
When intalling the net I found a square box on rite side that had a pioneer on it.
Stop playing dumb answer the question and I know you've seen this box i'ts on the right rear panel when you pull out the trunk lining.
I only asked because there is the amp you say is in the front so what the heck is this box?
I know you sell car audio products how much are your 6x9's HMMMMMMMMMMM?
Thank you for your support.
06-20-2005, 08:37 AM
#49
elduderino,
I converted to rca's a few weeks ago and have had a problem with minor noise. I did a few things to try and get rid of it. I know it's coming from the new rca conversion because the noise volume raises and decreases when I move the new rca jacks around. I tried a few things, but can't reduce it to nothing.
The first thing I tried was moving them as far away from the airbag module. It reduced the noise, but it's still there.
The next thing I did was soldered a connecting wire to each of the shield wires and then connected those 4 wires to a ground. When the car was off, there was no motor noise and the signal was very very clean. I had to actually turn up the gains on my amp, but man it sounded good. Unfortunately, when I turned the car on, motr noise city. Was very bad! twice as bad as before.
So I disconnected the ground, but the shields are still connected together and I still get a little bit of motor noise. It's a stable high ptiched humm that you can't even hear once the volume has been turned up to 1. But if the volume is all the way down you can hear it.
What "line driver" do you suggest if any? Would that help? What do you think?
I converted to rca's a few weeks ago and have had a problem with minor noise. I did a few things to try and get rid of it. I know it's coming from the new rca conversion because the noise volume raises and decreases when I move the new rca jacks around. I tried a few things, but can't reduce it to nothing.
The first thing I tried was moving them as far away from the airbag module. It reduced the noise, but it's still there.
The next thing I did was soldered a connecting wire to each of the shield wires and then connected those 4 wires to a ground. When the car was off, there was no motor noise and the signal was very very clean. I had to actually turn up the gains on my amp, but man it sounded good. Unfortunately, when I turned the car on, motr noise city. Was very bad! twice as bad as before.
So I disconnected the ground, but the shields are still connected together and I still get a little bit of motor noise. It's a stable high ptiched humm that you can't even hear once the volume has been turned up to 1. But if the volume is all the way down you can hear it.
What "line driver" do you suggest if any? Would that help? What do you think?
06-20-2005, 09:29 AM
#50
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I'm thinking about it...
Couple o' questions:
1) Have you checked for noise with the car running and the HU off?
2) If you have it in one (noise w/car off) make sure the amp is turning off with the HU (easy check).
If you have 1) and the amp is turning off, your passive xovers for the F speaks could be doing it. If they are too close to something (at one point mine were under the carpet against the pass-side firewall and THEY picked up the airbag ECU).
Couple o' questions:
1) Have you checked for noise with the car running and the HU off?
2) If you have it in one (noise w/car off) make sure the amp is turning off with the HU (easy check).
If you have 1) and the amp is turning off, your passive xovers for the F speaks could be doing it. If they are too close to something (at one point mine were under the carpet against the pass-side firewall and THEY picked up the airbag ECU).
06-20-2005, 09:30 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by bbalestier
Well about 4 weeks ago I was putting a cargo net in my TSX witch by the way if you buy one, the pictures that are shown are are miss leading that Acura post because the net does not mount high enough and is missleading. http://www.handaaccessories.com/tsx.html
Check out how it's mounted. http://www.handa-accessories.com/tsx/08L96.pdf
When intalling the net I found a square box on rite side that had a pioneer on it.
Stop playing dumb answer the question and I know you've seen this box i'ts on the right rear panel when you pull out the trunk lining.
I only asked because there is the amp you say is in the front so what the heck is this box?
I know you sell car audio products how much are your 6x9's HMMMMMMMMMMM?
Thank you for your support.
Check out how it's mounted. http://www.handa-accessories.com/tsx/08L96.pdf
When intalling the net I found a square box on rite side that had a pioneer on it.
Stop playing dumb answer the question and I know you've seen this box i'ts on the right rear panel when you pull out the trunk lining.
I only asked because there is the amp you say is in the front so what the heck is this box?
I know you sell car audio products how much are your 6x9's HMMMMMMMMMMM?
Thank you for your support.
06-20-2005, 09:46 AM
#52
1) zero noise if the car is on and the hu is off.
2) the amp does turn off with HU.
I don't have any crossovers for the speakers installed. I am running off of the stock speaker wires from the dash w/out any crossovers.
When my head unit is off and I have a destination selected on my Navigation unit, the "noise" appears when the navi voice turns on. Also, since it takes a minute for my amp to turn on, I lose the first part of whatever the navi voice says. It gets cut off since it takes a minute for the amp to power up. Was the OEM amp always on? Or does it just have a faster start up time?
Anyway, the noise is only there when the HU is on. Both when the car is on and off. The noise was more intense when the shields were grounded and the car was on.
2) the amp does turn off with HU.
I don't have any crossovers for the speakers installed. I am running off of the stock speaker wires from the dash w/out any crossovers.
When my head unit is off and I have a destination selected on my Navigation unit, the "noise" appears when the navi voice turns on. Also, since it takes a minute for my amp to turn on, I lose the first part of whatever the navi voice says. It gets cut off since it takes a minute for the amp to power up. Was the OEM amp always on? Or does it just have a faster start up time?
Anyway, the noise is only there when the HU is on. Both when the car is on and off. The noise was more intense when the shields were grounded and the car was on.
06-20-2005, 09:58 AM
#53
Originally Posted by bbalestier
When intalling the net I found a square box on rite side that had a pioneer on it.
06-20-2005, 10:57 AM
#54
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Yeah, my 04 didn't have it.
Yeah, the OEM amp has an instant turn-on, I suspect.
CJ, I'm gonna suggest messing with your amp ground first off.
Then I'm gonna suggest running a wire from your OEM amp ground to the new amp ground (the OEM amp ground is pretty close to the HU ground).
Then I'm gonna suggest a ground loop isolator if only for testing purposes. (Remember the tranformers inside most GLI's pick up the airbag ECU).
If none of that works I'd take a Discman or iPod and plug it into the RCAs you ahve at the conversion point (assuming you did the female RCA ends on the OEM wires, so you ahve male RCA ends up front). I want to take a battery-powered signal source and run it through the same RCA to the same amp and see if you still ahve noise. If you don't, it's a ground loop. If you do, it's the RCA picking up inducted noise on the RCA OR it's the amp not filtering the input power well enough...
Whe I had the JL in my car I had to have the gain all the way down or I had noise. When I tried three different model DLS amps, I could put the gain wherever I wanted and I had no noise. NO wiring changes at all, so that suggests that some amps are better at rejecting input noise than others What amp are you running?
Yeah, the OEM amp has an instant turn-on, I suspect.
CJ, I'm gonna suggest messing with your amp ground first off.
Then I'm gonna suggest running a wire from your OEM amp ground to the new amp ground (the OEM amp ground is pretty close to the HU ground).
Then I'm gonna suggest a ground loop isolator if only for testing purposes. (Remember the tranformers inside most GLI's pick up the airbag ECU).
If none of that works I'd take a Discman or iPod and plug it into the RCAs you ahve at the conversion point (assuming you did the female RCA ends on the OEM wires, so you ahve male RCA ends up front). I want to take a battery-powered signal source and run it through the same RCA to the same amp and see if you still ahve noise. If you don't, it's a ground loop. If you do, it's the RCA picking up inducted noise on the RCA OR it's the amp not filtering the input power well enough...
Whe I had the JL in my car I had to have the gain all the way down or I had noise. When I tried three different model DLS amps, I could put the gain wherever I wanted and I had no noise. NO wiring changes at all, so that suggests that some amps are better at rejecting input noise than others What amp are you running?
06-20-2005, 01:22 PM
#55
Thanks! I will try all of the above. For the record. My amp is grounded to a stock grounding point behind the rear seat next to the gas tank. I have a feeling that a ground loop isolator is going to be the problem solver. That was my first thought.
06-20-2005, 02:01 PM
#56
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Before I put in a GLI permanently I would consider grabbing the HU ground and tying it to the amp ground.
But that's just me.
Or get one of these:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/ci2rr.html
But that's just me.
Or get one of these:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/ci2rr.html
06-20-2005, 09:33 PM
#57
Originally Posted by bbalestier
When intalling the net I found a square box on rite side that had a pioneer on it.
Part number: 39820-sec-l010-m1 or GEX-M7447XMzh
Pioneer Corporation
It has 2 plugs 1 for the antenna, the other for the rest of the BS. The other plug looks similar to the 14 pin HU plug. But the wires appear to be a little different.
06-28-2005, 09:38 PM
#58
Intermediate
Pioneer In trunk
Originally Posted by CJams
BINGO!!!!! That would be the XM BOX! It's basically located inside the rear passenger fender area.
Part number: 39820-sec-l010-m1 or GEX-M7447XMzh
Pioneer Corporation
It has 2 plugs 1 for the antenna, the other for the rest of the BS. The other plug looks similar to the 14 pin HU plug. But the wires appear to be a little different.
Part number: 39820-sec-l010-m1 or GEX-M7447XMzh
Pioneer Corporation
It has 2 plugs 1 for the antenna, the other for the rest of the BS. The other plug looks similar to the 14 pin HU plug. But the wires appear to be a little different.
Now can anybody guide me in the rite direction for a amp install?
If I put a aftermarket amp I'd like to use the 6X9's full range is this possible?
Thank you!
Last edited by bbalestier; 06-28-2005 at 09:41 PM.
06-29-2005, 02:54 AM
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crackle and distortion from speakers
Could anyone tell me what could be the problem if my speakers starts to crackle and distort really bad when I turn up the volume even for a little bit? It seems what there is a short or loose connection somewhere but I can't seem to pinpoint the problem. I have spend +5 hrs diagnosing the problem with a multimeter and still no progress. I have also noticed that there is a lot more static in the car now like getting shock everytime I step out of the car. Also, when I flip the door locking switch there would be instant overpowering crackling distortion coming out of the speakers. My current setup is infinity reference speakers all around, JL 300/4, 250/1, 12W3v2, and pioneer equalizer.
My guess is grounding and power line problem, but I have already double checked.
My guess is grounding and power line problem, but I have already double checked.
06-29-2005, 09:17 AM
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Take an iPod with an RCA adapter or a Discman with same. Plug it in to the amps and see if the same thing happens. If it does, it's the amp power OR a shorted speaker wire or speaker terminal (or a blown speaker!) If it doesn't it's your HU interface wiring or a pinched RCA cable. I would start a new thread on this one.
06-29-2005, 01:21 PM
#61
Originally Posted by elduderino
Checked it and it was fine!!! CJ, I'm gonna suggest messing with your amp ground first off.
Did that and still had the noise!!! Then I'm gonna suggest running a wire from your OEM amp ground to the new amp ground (the OEM amp ground is pretty close to the HU ground).
Still need to try this one!!! Then I'm gonna suggest a ground loop isolator if only for testing purposes. (Remember the tranformers inside most GLI's pick up the airbag ECU).
Need to try this also!!! If none of that works I'd take a Discman or iPod and plug it into the RCAs you ahve at the conversion point (assuming you did the female RCA ends on the OEM wires, so you ahve male RCA ends up front). I want to take a battery-powered signal source and run it through the same RCA to the same amp and see if you still ahve noise. If you don't, it's a ground loop. If you do, it's the RCA picking up inducted noise on the RCA OR it's the amp not filtering the input power well enough...
Whe I had the JL in my car I had to have the gain all the way down or I had noise. When I tried three different model DLS amps, I could put the gain wherever I wanted and I had no noise. NO wiring changes at all, so that suggests that some amps are better at rejecting input noise than others What amp are you running?
Did that and still had the noise!!! Then I'm gonna suggest running a wire from your OEM amp ground to the new amp ground (the OEM amp ground is pretty close to the HU ground).
Still need to try this one!!! Then I'm gonna suggest a ground loop isolator if only for testing purposes. (Remember the tranformers inside most GLI's pick up the airbag ECU).
Need to try this also!!! If none of that works I'd take a Discman or iPod and plug it into the RCAs you ahve at the conversion point (assuming you did the female RCA ends on the OEM wires, so you ahve male RCA ends up front). I want to take a battery-powered signal source and run it through the same RCA to the same amp and see if you still ahve noise. If you don't, it's a ground loop. If you do, it's the RCA picking up inducted noise on the RCA OR it's the amp not filtering the input power well enough...
Whe I had the JL in my car I had to have the gain all the way down or I had noise. When I tried three different model DLS amps, I could put the gain wherever I wanted and I had no noise. NO wiring changes at all, so that suggests that some amps are better at rejecting input noise than others What amp are you running?
Oh yeah and I also dropped the back seat and ran a set of RCA's directly from the HU to the amp (Through the middle of the cab so no other wires were near it) and the faint high pitche hummm was still there.
06-29-2005, 03:42 PM
#62
Intermediate
Adapter For Amp OEM harness?
Originally Posted by elduderino
(print and give to install shop)
Most installers haven't come across an OEM head unit like this, and most haven't seemed to believe the car owner that this can be done - so here's a writeup for you explaning that...
THIS IN-DASH CD CHANGER HEAD UNIT HAS 4 NORMAL PREAMP OUTPUTS!
It does NOT have RCAs on it, but the electrical signal is the same - it is not any funky balanced or DC-clamped signal or anything like that. It's a normal single-ended RCA signal without the RCA plugs. These wires have been tested with an oscilloscope. The output is the exact same level as a non-4V head unit.
The head unit also has NO equalization - flat response from 20-20k at any volume. In short, it's a great head unit, and many amps have been added to it with no noise and great sound quality. It''s actually very easy to do - so don't make it harder by ignoring this info and having to re-do your work, OK?
LOC's will add noise, both engine noise and background hiss. This is bad.
However, we have seen some engine noise if the mid/highs amp gain is raised very high. In these cases we have seen a line driver installed in the OEM amp location mentioned below solve the problem.
(IF YOU ADD A GLI FOR ANY REASON, DO NOT SET IT NEAR THE AIRBAG ECU IN THE FRONT CONSOLE AREA, IT IS A KNOWN NOISE EMITTER! The coil inside your GLI will pick up noise here! Also, do not set passive speaker xovers near this ECU)
Instructions:
Pull pocket and console around shifter. The OEM amp is a black box with a 20-pin harness and a 14-pin harness (it has "Made By Pioneer" on the bottom.) The 14-pin has a usable Remote Turn-On wire and the wires you need for RCAs. The 20-pin has speaker wires.
Take 2 1M to 2F RCA "Y" adapters. Chop the Male ends off. Strip back the outer insulation 1". Wrap the shield into a strand away from the center dielectric. Strip back the center dielectric 1/2". Now connect these directly to the wires below:
(Note: Each - is across form each + in the plug)
Right Front:
B4, Blue + (center of RCA)
B7 Red - (shield of RCA)
Left Front:
B1 Red/Blue + (center of RCA)
B8 Yellow - (shield of RCA)
Right Rear:
B6 Lt Green + (center of RCA)
B13 Purple - (shield of RCA)
Left Rear:
B3 Blue + (center of RCA)
B10 Pink - (shield of RCA)
B7 Yellow/Green is the 12V Remote Turn On wire. It can safely run two amps. Do not short it out, it also powers the FM amp in the C pllar (but it is powered with sources other than FM, don't worry).
B2 Brown/Yellow, B9 Gray/Blue, B5 Brown, and B12 Gray are extra shield grounds that are grounded inside the amp. You probably should ground them (although it doesn't seem to make any difference.)
Here's a wiring diagram:
http://www.shinzu.com/tsx/images/repair/tsxaudio2.jpg
(The author is a veteran of the 12V industry of almost two decades. He has been the manager of tech support for a major 12V manufacturer, he helped write the MECP tests, and he has written numerous articles for Car Audio and Mobile Electronics magazines. None of that means he's right about this... but he is.)
Verified instructions on using the preamp outputs of the Acura TSX.
Most installers haven't come across an OEM head unit like this, and most haven't seemed to believe the car owner that this can be done - so here's a writeup for you explaning that...
THIS IN-DASH CD CHANGER HEAD UNIT HAS 4 NORMAL PREAMP OUTPUTS!
It does NOT have RCAs on it, but the electrical signal is the same - it is not any funky balanced or DC-clamped signal or anything like that. It's a normal single-ended RCA signal without the RCA plugs. These wires have been tested with an oscilloscope. The output is the exact same level as a non-4V head unit.
The head unit also has NO equalization - flat response from 20-20k at any volume. In short, it's a great head unit, and many amps have been added to it with no noise and great sound quality. It''s actually very easy to do - so don't make it harder by ignoring this info and having to re-do your work, OK?
NO LOC's ARE NEEDED!
LOC's will add noise, both engine noise and background hiss. This is bad.
However, we have seen some engine noise if the mid/highs amp gain is raised very high. In these cases we have seen a line driver installed in the OEM amp location mentioned below solve the problem.
(IF YOU ADD A GLI FOR ANY REASON, DO NOT SET IT NEAR THE AIRBAG ECU IN THE FRONT CONSOLE AREA, IT IS A KNOWN NOISE EMITTER! The coil inside your GLI will pick up noise here! Also, do not set passive speaker xovers near this ECU)
Instructions:
Pull pocket and console around shifter. The OEM amp is a black box with a 20-pin harness and a 14-pin harness (it has "Made By Pioneer" on the bottom.) The 14-pin has a usable Remote Turn-On wire and the wires you need for RCAs. The 20-pin has speaker wires.
Take 2 1M to 2F RCA "Y" adapters. Chop the Male ends off. Strip back the outer insulation 1". Wrap the shield into a strand away from the center dielectric. Strip back the center dielectric 1/2". Now connect these directly to the wires below:
(Note: Each - is across form each + in the plug)
Right Front:
B4, Blue + (center of RCA)
B7 Red - (shield of RCA)
Left Front:
B1 Red/Blue + (center of RCA)
B8 Yellow - (shield of RCA)
Right Rear:
B6 Lt Green + (center of RCA)
B13 Purple - (shield of RCA)
Left Rear:
B3 Blue + (center of RCA)
B10 Pink - (shield of RCA)
B7 Yellow/Green is the 12V Remote Turn On wire. It can safely run two amps. Do not short it out, it also powers the FM amp in the C pllar (but it is powered with sources other than FM, don't worry).
B2 Brown/Yellow, B9 Gray/Blue, B5 Brown, and B12 Gray are extra shield grounds that are grounded inside the amp. You probably should ground them (although it doesn't seem to make any difference.)
Here's a wiring diagram:
http://www.shinzu.com/tsx/images/repair/tsxaudio2.jpg
(The author is a veteran of the 12V industry of almost two decades. He has been the manager of tech support for a major 12V manufacturer, he helped write the MECP tests, and he has written numerous articles for Car Audio and Mobile Electronics magazines. None of that means he's right about this... but he is.)
square connector to tap into speakers after removing the stock amp.Is there an adapter? Am I missing something?
I'm trying to stay open minded about this.
Let me know any pictures would be helpful part numbers and so on.
Thank You for your support.
Last edited by bbalestier; 06-29-2005 at 03:45 PM.
06-29-2005, 06:45 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by bbalestier
I'm totally confused I don't want cut the wires from
square connector to tap into speakers after removing the stock amp.
Is there an adapter? Am I missing something?
I'm trying to stay open minded about this.
Let me know any pictures would be helpful part numbers and so on.
Thank You for your support.
square connector to tap into speakers after removing the stock amp.Is there an adapter? Am I missing something?
I'm trying to stay open minded about this.
Let me know any pictures would be helpful part numbers and so on.
Thank You for your support.
You can make a 20-pin speaker adapter out of two Honda 2002 Accord car-side connectors. I think you can order those from installer.com
The 14-pin signal connector has no adapter that I've found or can make.
The connector isn't used on anything else I've found.
T-taps (squeeze on the wire, w/o cutting) are my suggestion for that interface.
06-29-2005, 06:48 PM
#64
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Originally Posted by CJams
I am running an Alpine MRV-F450. All 5 channels have been dropped to 2 ohms. (Ex: fr drvr door and seperate connected to ch 1....etc. and Ch 5 Connected to 2 10" alplines.) I have a feeling it might be the amp just not filtering the input well enough. I thought about that this morning. Will update when I solve the problem.
Oh yeah and I also dropped the back seat and ran a set of RCA's directly from the HU to the amp (Through the middle of the cab so no other wires were near it) and the faint high pitche hummm was still there.
Oh yeah and I also dropped the back seat and ran a set of RCA's directly from the HU to the amp (Through the middle of the cab so no other wires were near it) and the faint high pitche hummm was still there.
So the signal cable is not the problem.
Have you tried tying the singal ground to the amp ground?
07-08-2005, 09:09 PM
#68
Well I figured out my high pitch hum problem. I went to radio shack and bought 2 sets of these:
Ground Loop Isolator($17)each
Everything sounds the way it should now and I love it!
Ground Loop Isolator($17)each
Everything sounds the way it should now and I love it!
07-10-2005, 01:02 AM
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Should we tap the wires for RCA and the Speakers or cut them? What if I have Navi? Should I keep the OEM amp for this purpose? I want to figure out if I add an amp will it hurt the Navi voice...if so please suggest on how to prevent this. When I get an amp I want to change the wiring so I need to figure out how sound will be heard from the navi.
Last edited by spatel600; 07-10-2005 at 01:06 AM.
07-10-2005, 01:15 AM
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So i kinda found the answer but i need to know more on what El Dude means about the Navi voice is integrated... does that mean the voice comes thru the RCA...which mutes the rear and talks through the fronts? please help thanks
07-10-2005, 10:56 AM
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I believe on the CL the voice doesn't go through the HU, it goes through the amp from the nav unit, and if you bypass the amp there's no connection to the navi any more.
But the TSX has the nav voice signal going thru the HU. I drove mine to the airport this am and it worked fine. THe only kink is when the HU is off, if your amp takes a while to turn on (like the JLs). From what I hear the slow turn on time keeps you from hearing the nav command, or at least the first part, when the HU is off - it throws a RTO output but by the time the JL is fully on you've missed part of the instruction.
I never had this happen when I had the JL amp because my wife turns the voice off and I never checked it... but some members have mentioned it.
My DLS amp this morn ing seemed to work fine with the nav with the HU off. Got me to the airport.
But the TSX has the nav voice signal going thru the HU. I drove mine to the airport this am and it worked fine. THe only kink is when the HU is off, if your amp takes a while to turn on (like the JLs). From what I hear the slow turn on time keeps you from hearing the nav command, or at least the first part, when the HU is off - it throws a RTO output but by the time the JL is fully on you've missed part of the instruction.
I never had this happen when I had the JL amp because my wife turns the voice off and I never checked it... but some members have mentioned it.
My DLS amp this morn ing seemed to work fine with the nav with the HU off. Got me to the airport.
07-10-2005, 01:33 PM
#72
My navi voice comes from the HU front L and R ch. The rear doesn't get muted! If your stereo is up loud, the front speakers cut out and the navi voice comes on, you most likely won't here it unless you have the navi voice cranked up. Your amped rear speakers will drown it out!
07-10-2005, 02:01 PM
#73
Originally Posted by CJams
Well I figured out my high pitch hum problem. I went to radio shack and bought 2 sets of these:
Ground Loop Isolator($17)each
Everything sounds the way it should now and I love it!
Ground Loop Isolator($17)each
Everything sounds the way it should now and I love it!
I have one of those too. Curious to know, where did you put them - what specific location?
07-10-2005, 10:05 PM
#74
Originally Posted by Spoon
I have one of those too. Curious to know, where did you put them - what specific location?
07-10-2005, 10:33 PM
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Stock HU preamp out voltage?
First off, thanks to everyone on this thread for all the stock HU/amp info. I decided to keep my stock 04 TSX head unit, remove the stock amp, and wire the rest of my system from there. Right now my car is a mess...interior is apart...but I would rather keep the stock HU and use it than add a 2nd one and have to do some custom mounting job.
Couple questions:
- does anyone know the voltage of the preamp level outputs from the stock HU? Will a line driver be necessary? I will have the following signal path: HU->Hifonics Plato EQ->Audio Control 24xs->Hifonics series 8 amps, so there is plenty of opportunity to "boost" the signal. Just wanted to know if there is any merit of boosting it with a line driver right near the source.
If nobody knows the voltage offhand, I can try to measure it...should I measure the AC voltage as open-circuit or with the stock amp actually connected?
TIA.
Couple questions:
- does anyone know the voltage of the preamp level outputs from the stock HU? Will a line driver be necessary? I will have the following signal path: HU->Hifonics Plato EQ->Audio Control 24xs->Hifonics series 8 amps, so there is plenty of opportunity to "boost" the signal. Just wanted to know if there is any merit of boosting it with a line driver right near the source.
If nobody knows the voltage offhand, I can try to measure it...should I measure the AC voltage as open-circuit or with the stock amp actually connected?
TIA.
07-10-2005, 10:53 PM
#76
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I did not measure it with a 0dB sine wave. It was some time ago, and I measured it with a -20dB sine wave. I then measured the voltage with the same test CD with my trusty bench Alpine 7903 - a "2V" HU. I got the exact same output level - 800mV on my Fluke Scopemeter with no measurable distortion at max volume. I suspect that with a 0dB test disc I would have gotten 2V.
So, do you need a line driver? Only if you can't get enough volume without picking up noise. The only reason I would worry about it is if you can't rasie a gain without getting alternator whine.
FYI... the last time I was involved in a Hifonics processor and an Audiocontrol processor in the same car (Hifonics EQ, AudioControl 24xs), there was horrific noise - which finally turned out to be the two power supplies heterodyning. I didn't install it - I just ended up t-shooting it. They absolutely, positively could not live in the same car together without screwing up the other - not without some external power supply filtration that we were not willing to build.
So if you DO have noise, bail on the Plato temporarily and see if it goes away...
So, do you need a line driver? Only if you can't get enough volume without picking up noise. The only reason I would worry about it is if you can't rasie a gain without getting alternator whine.
FYI... the last time I was involved in a Hifonics processor and an Audiocontrol processor in the same car (Hifonics EQ, AudioControl 24xs), there was horrific noise - which finally turned out to be the two power supplies heterodyning. I didn't install it - I just ended up t-shooting it. They absolutely, positively could not live in the same car together without screwing up the other - not without some external power supply filtration that we were not willing to build.
So if you DO have noise, bail on the Plato temporarily and see if it goes away...
Last edited by elduderino; 07-10-2005 at 10:55 PM.
07-11-2005, 12:09 AM
#77
Originally Posted by CJams
I have them back below the HU in the area that use to keep the OEM amp. Every once in a while I still get some noise though. Haven't figured out what the intermittency is yet.
07-11-2005, 07:06 PM
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Thanks for the pointers, Eld. Glad to hear the stock HU at least has a decent level output. I have used the Plato and 24xs in a previous vehicle without problem, but I am keeping my fingers crossed with these noise issues others are reporting when building a system from the stock HU.
07-23-2005, 09:49 PM
#79
I just want to let everyone know what my noise problem was. In case you didn't know, I was getting a low volume high pitched hummm when the stereo was turned on. It sounded like a ground problem. I also thought it had something to do with the way the amp was wired up. I had every channel dropped down to 2 ohms with speakers running parrallel on them. Wel I finally had a chance to get another amp to lessen the load on my MRV-F450 and viala! No more noise! The amp was basically crying because it had too many speakers hooked up. I removed my 6x9's and an Alpine 10 froim that amp and moved them to another and everything is fine! So happy now!
08-26-2005, 11:51 PM
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Ok, so here's what I'm not understanding; aside from using a component set up, how do i power 3 sets of speakers with a 4 channel amp? Will i need a seperate amp if i wish to retain the rear 6x9's? i have also heard that 6x9 choice is limited due to torision (sp) bars. can somebody recommend a few decent 6x9's that don't cost an arm and a leg? I saw the RCE269 mentioned earlier, but I think those are a bit out of my price range.
currently i have 4 sets of apline type s coaxials (already installed, but i am looking for a good set of 6.5" components to replace the fronts) plus what ever 6x9's i can find. i have a jl 12"w6v2 currently using speaker level inputs and a 500/1 monoblock (such a shame). what i plan to have happen is this:
jl E4300 powers front and rear speakers, replacing stock amp; jl E4300 also has a pre-amp output that i will use to link the 500/1. where do 6x9's come in?
i am also looking for recommendations on a decent middle road component set of speakers. thanks!
currently i have 4 sets of apline type s coaxials (already installed, but i am looking for a good set of 6.5" components to replace the fronts) plus what ever 6x9's i can find. i have a jl 12"w6v2 currently using speaker level inputs and a 500/1 monoblock (such a shame). what i plan to have happen is this:
jl E4300 powers front and rear speakers, replacing stock amp; jl E4300 also has a pre-amp output that i will use to link the 500/1. where do 6x9's come in?
i am also looking for recommendations on a decent middle road component set of speakers. thanks!