Solaris94

So after my disasterous attempt to put two Tang Band 6.5" subwoofers in the rear deck of my TSX, I purchased the MB Quart RCE269 and used the woofers only to replace the stock ones.

As a background, I also installed MB Quart Premium 6.5 woofers on the front and rear doors, and Premium 1" tweeters in the factory location. I was quite pleasantly suprise that the stock amp was able to power all the MB Quarts just fine. The SQ improved dramatically. The sound was more transparent (doesn't sound like we're in a box) and I enjoyed listening to the radio much more. Of course I had to turn the volume knob way up to compensate for the less efficient speakers. With the stock amp, the MB Quart 6x9s worked great as sub fills. And may be because of the way they were built, the rear deck don't rattle that much but they pushed out lots of air. But it's time for more power.

All the MB Quarts are next powered by the old school PPI5480 5 channel amp I had laying around. The MB Quart 6x9" are hooked up in parallel and the PPI sub channel can power them just fine. I would have preferred running them stereo but I have to work with the amp I got.

Before I go any further, I want to extend a special thank to Elduderino for his personal help when the amp was proffessionally installed at a local shop in LA. I installed the speakers myself but I left the amp, power, and signal installs to the professionals. He was gracious to accept my phone call when the install hit a road block. For some reason the wire colors in my system did not match those of published data I found on this site. We were able to sort it out in the end and the install was a success. No noise, no whines, no issues. That PPI really rocks.

First impression with the new amp was very positive. The speakers opened up tremendously, with tighter and more pronounced mids and highs. The MB Quart front stage sounded great, accept for the tweeters. I get lots of simbilance (sp) when listening to CDs. I had to set the tweeters at -3 db on the Xovers before I was comfortable with the tweeters. May be I should switch them out with some JL tweeters as someone on the board had done with great results.

As a week of listening to the 6x9 as subwoofers went by, I grew more critical. The new woofers could play loud but they couldn't play low. I had adjusted and tuned the amp every which way posible but I couldn't get it to play loud low. Unless I got a new amp, I don't think I could tune my system the way I wanted to listen. What I was able to get was a lot of localized air movements but I could'nt hear any low notes. I could feel the air being pushed around, especially if I sat in the back seats, but I couldn't hear those rumblings. To put it another way, I felt like I got bitch slapped around on the face and upside the head but never felt a punch in the gut. In a way, the 6x9s were still operating like a low mid-bass and not like a subwoofer. Don't get me wrong, compared to the stock woofers they are ten times better, but I was still not happy.

Time to rethink. I initially wanted to have full use of my trunk so I did not want a large sub box taking up a lot of space in it. However, I'm so spoiled with my SVS sub in my home theater system that anything less was abit disappointing. So, after getting an okay from the wife, I broke down and bought a sub box. Off the RCE 269 went to Ebay. In place now is the older Powerwedge box from JL with a single 12W0. It's 32" wide and only 14" at the deepest part. I was able to squeeze it under the rear deck and I can still get to my spare tire just fine. With the subwoofer, the sound is more to my liking. The lows are non-directional, and I can feel bass it in my guts instead of my face and sides of my head. I'm now a happy camper. When I don't have the kids in the car, I can crank it up and get the whole car bumping.

A side note on the sub-in-the trunk installation: I find that by removing the 6x9s completely, the sub worked better but road noise was unbearable at highway speeds. I had to put the stock 6x9s back in. But when the 6x9s were in the sub was muffled and did not sound as good. I had to fiddle with the amp xovers and gain quite a few times before I could get the sub to sound ok again.

Now just as everything sounded pretty good, my tax return is here. Time to upgrade the amp and sub. That will be another thread. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thank you for listening.

BallsOfSteel

Hell of a write up !!! Elduderino is truly the "MAN", helping you out in a clutch situation. Hats off !!!

CJams

Pics???????

Good thread! I am currently updateing my 05w/navi. I tried to mount 8's under the back dash and have them blast through the 6x9 holes. Was a little too much work so I bought some JBL's to replace the stocks. I still think there is a way to get more bass without using the trunk space, just gotta fugure it out....give me time! I just purchased aa Alpine mrv-f450 (or540?) 5ch and can't wait to get it in there.

I would like to see pics of your system. Did you remove the front seperates and replace them with new seperates? Or did you just place the new ones on top of them?

glott

I have the same box but with a 12w3v2, sounds great fits great

Solaris94

CJams,

I'll get some pictures up this afternoon. They will show how I replaced the stock tweets. I wanted to put 8's on the rear deck like you but those dang torsional springs won't allow much room for that mod. JL actually make stealth subs for the rear deck of the BMW 3 series. I use to have a 328ci with those and they sounded pretty good. I was wondering if we could rig them up to work under ours. But those dang torsional bars again. I'm a mechanical engineer by profession, so unless we can replace those torsional springs with gas shocks, any seal boxes under the rear deck is nearly impossible.

Glott,

Funny you mentioned that you have a 12w3v2 in that box. I just bought a 12 W3v2 D2 too and was wondering if it will fit. Now I know. I also got a JL 300/2 to drive it. I also got a JL 300/4 to drive the front speakers. I will have to sit down and plan out the install so I will not have anything together for another month or so. For now that PPI5480 will do. I love this amp. It has been with me for five years thru three different cars and it still rocks.

Regards.

TSX CSI

I had thought for a long time about just replacing the rear deck speakers with the hopes that i would eventually get a comparable sound to what i had in my old Blazer. But after your superb write up, I guess that i am going to have to go the route of a box in the trunk. Thanks again for helping me make up my mind

CJams

[QUOTE=Solaris94]CJams,
I wanted to put 8's on the rear deck like you but those dang torsional springs won't allow much room for that mod. ........I'm a mechanical engineer by profession, so unless we can replace those torsional springs with gas shocks, any seal boxes under the rear deck is nearly impossible.
QUOTE]

Gas shocks! I love that idea! I bet we can get 8's in the back dash without butchering our car!....You have given me hope! God bless the Engineering Department


Engineer joke:
A Priest, a Mexican, and an Engineer are golfing as they come up on a foursome that seems to be taking way too long to finish the whole. They find out the foursome ahead of them are all blind. The priest says, "oh how great! Even with thier disability they get out and live life to the fullest. God bless them!" The Mexican says, "Good for them! I know how it is to be a minority and to me the handicapped are minorities as well. It's good they don't let it hold them back from enjoying life! The Engineer looks at the Priest and the Mexican and says, "Why can't they play at night?"


I will look in to mounting a shock. I was so disappointed when I found out 8's wouldn't work. I think it just might.

elduderino

Glad I was helpful, and glad you found what works for you. It's true that the two 6x9's in the R deck don't sound like a sub in a box. I have a Stealthbox in my CR-V waiting to get the woofer replaced (5 years is a long time for a W0...: )

However, two things that can improve the performance of the R deck 6x9s to the point that they can fool a listener a lot of the time:

1) An amp with a subsonic filter to take out the lowest sub-bass. This really cleans up the sound at higher volumes

2) Damping the R deck with VMAX or Super Dynamat. We have done the R deck with VMAX only from underneath, and not wityh a ton ov coverage - but it helped the bass output a lot. Now we just need to stuff a little foam between the R deck trim and the metal shelf for the buzzes that occasionally come from there - but they are much harder to create than the old noises.

We are going to try some of the Genesis 6x9 woofers even though they list at $400 a pair - we hope they will help out in the highest-output applications.

Solaris94

Just a note: An install shop in LA did the amp, cap, signal, and power install. I did all the install for the speakers, and all the tuning myself.

Enjoy.


Here's the sub in the trunk. Notice I can still access my spare tire.


Here's the amp, Xovers for the front components, and the stiffening cap. Notice that I can still fold down my seats in a pinch.


Close up of the electronics.


This was how I mounted the 1" tweeter.


Sample picture of tweeter in the factory location.


Sample picture of the 6.5" woofer install in door.

Hope the pictures will show up.

elduderino

I can't see them but others may... sorry : (

Solaris94

Here's the sub in the trunk. Notice I can still access my spare tire.



Here's the amp, Xovers for the front components, and the stiffening cap. Notice that I can still fold down my seats in a pinch.



Close up of the electronics.



This was how I mounted the 1" tweeter.



Sample picture of tweeter in the factory location.



Sample picture of the 6.5" woofer install in door. Notice the Dynamat.

Tsx536

I like how the tweets look man....Very nice install

elduderino

That's a nice old-school PPI... but I THINK that with that amp's stiff regulation in the power supply, the cap may not be helping at all.

CJams

Tweets look good!

dark inspire

well done

elduderino

I should have added, very nice DIY work. Congrats!

Solaris94

About the cap, I wasn't sure I needed one but I couldn't find any spec on the amp's power supply specification. I have the amp's user's manual but it doesn't talk about power regulation. So, I threw one in for good measure. The cap was on a fire sale at Cardomain and I like the digital voltage meter. When I upgrade to the JL amps in a month or so, I'll propably will list the cap on Ebay.

Thanks for the advice.

mrclrider

has anyone thought of speaker baffles, for trying to seal those 6x9's up at all. Metra sells a few sizes, and perhaps witht he baffles in place and with proper dynamat sealing on the edges it might give it a little better response instead of the free air resonance that is happening with using that whole trunk as a type of enclosure???

elduderino

No.







6x9's are engineered for free-air applications, not for being encased in styrofoam big mac cartons : ) In case you can't tell, I hates those things. The biggest problems with doing this have to do with R deck resonances and with notes below 40 Hz or so causing excessive speaker travel. If you put a speaker in any box, it acts a s a high-pass crossover filter. If the box is too small, the high-pass crossover point is too high.

The biggest improvements in our TSX to get the bass to sound good have been damping the R deck, foam between the R deck metal and the trim panel, and using the MBQ 6x9s over the others' we tried. However, I look forward to trying the Genesis subs next week...

CJams

So I want 8's in the back dash so bad I had to try...... I went to "Schucks Auto" and found 2 Trunk lift struts (E072180) approximately 13"s long with a travel of about 6". Then went to home Depot and found some brackets and bolts. When I tore the trunk apart I was happy to see, that on the Drivers side I could mount a one shock without even having to drill any holes. The shock can be bolted straight to the existing hole used for the torsion bar (on the trunk arm). Then to the backside of the rear seat near the shock tower there is an existing hole that the other bracket can be bolted to. No drilling at all for the drivers side! The passenger side needs to have a hole drill to mount behind the seat. VIOLA!!!!! Good bye torsion bars!!!! Hello 8's..

Now, I do have to say there is currently a flaw in this program...The shocks I bought are a little too strong for this application and it takes more muscle to close the trunk, but not that bad. Also, since the shock compression is so heavy the trunk opens plenty faster than it did, and it opens all the way, not just half way like the torsion bars. I do need to find a weaker or adjustable strut for this. But it was pretty simple to modify.

Now it's time to find away to mount the 8's from the bottom.....and have them blast through the 6x9 holes.

BTW, in the picture, the strut isn't bolted to the trunk bar. It's just using the torsion bars extra bit of bar. The torsion bars weren't removed since it was just a test.

Hee's the pic.....

Solaris94

Oh man you beat me to it. I had it all planned to work on it next weekend. Anyways, good job. I'm sure a lot of people will do this mod.

CJams

You can do better I bet. (since you're an engineer) My test was a quick install. It could be improved by mounting the front of the shock 90deg diff. so it can move slightly with the motion of the shock. My way was fast and without any drilling. Just needed to proove to myself it can be done. I hope others like you can run with it and improve upon it so we can get those 8's in there.

Solaris94

My plan is to replicate the travel of the torsional springs, and use a strain guage to measure the actual spring rate of the torsional springs.

What I have found is that the total travel is around ~5 inches and less than five pound force for both springs. So we are talking about less than 3 lbs for each gas spring. The way you have the ends of the shocks mounted does not allow the shocks to swing or rotate easily as it expand and contract. They have to be mounted on ball joints to allow one end of the shock to replicate the arc of the torsional spring.

Also, when the trunk is closed, the shocks must be in their minimal loaded position. Meaning they should still be in compression so you can pop the trunk, but they should not be in the maximum load position because we don't want lots of strain on the trunk mounts. This is achieved by choosing carefully the mounting position of the non-moving end. I could use AutoCAD to sweep out the optimum location for the stationary mounting point, or a more imperical method is to get in the trunk and do a reverse mount study. I was doing this earlier today and accidentally locked myself in the trunk with the car key. No one was around and I was about to curse at myself when I saw this glow in the dark latch from inside the trunk.

Did you know there's a glow in the dark latch in the trunk just in case you get locked in there accidentally? I didn't know this until I was trying to find a way out... he, he. I don't remember reading about this feature in the TSX brochure. I know the Ford Taurus made a big deal about this feature a few years back, but Honda never did. May be it's a new safety law so kids (or zealous engineers) don't lock themselves in the trunk and suffocate.

Oh well, another point for the TSX.

Solaris94

Oh, my bad the spring rate is not five pounds for both. That's the force needed to open the trunk. The spring rate for the gas shocks is determined by knowing the approximate weight of the trunk, and calculate the torque to move the trunk at the pivot points. I guestimate that we would need two gas shocks rated at fifteen pounds each.

CJams

I was shown this feature during the sales pitch. That's hilarious! I actually watched the travel of everything with the rear seats down. I knew about the trunk releae, but didn't know it was glow in the dark.

I have since removed the whole strut set up. It was just a quick test to see how feasible it was. The struts I bought were $22 a piece so I returned them once my test was done. That is only part of the monster. We still have to find the proper configuration for the 8's. I got a good idea on how to get them in there.

BTW-the torsion bars can be removed without adding any struts anyway. Your trunk just wouldn't pop open with the fob button. And you might need something to prop it open.

elduderino

Why would you assume that 8"s would sound any different than 6x9's in that configuration?

Same cone area, close enough.

by-nines are designed for infinite baffle apps. Most 8"s aren't.

Possibly larger VC but electrical power handling is not a problem.

CJams

I have used 8"s in a rear deck before and they sounded better then the 6x9's I replaced them with. But I mounted them from above to get them to work. I don't want to cut the back dash on my TSX. It just sounded way better when I did it before. The 8"s seemed to handle more power without popping.

elduderino

WSell, I've done it before, with 8"s that work well free air - when they work better, it's not because they are 8"s, it's because they have more travel. So that's why I'm trying to figure out if you have a set of speakers in mind, or just a size?

CJams

Just size....No specific brand yet.

elduderino

So I suppose the Infinity by-nines obviate that quest? : )

CJams

For now! Untill I find a way to get the 8"s in. Then they will be Ebay'd! This is the second pair of x9s I have tried (JBL's before). If Car Toys would have had my 8s in stock I would have bought them instead, if they are in stock within the next week or 2 I will return the x9's for them. Fingers crossed.

803Twon302

It's too late now that you've returned them but if the two struts were too strong how would using only a singl strut work out?

CJams

It would twist the trunk and eventually the trunk would sit lopsided. The weight needs to be equally distributed for long term use.

I have seen other shocks/struts lately on some equipment in the building I work at. They are used on light weight doors, so I am sure that we will be able to find the right ones soon. We have a small team currently working on this strut mod and hopefully we will have the perfect solution soon. I have to install my Nav to dvd converter, TV tuner, aux audio input, and amp before I go back to the trunk strut mod I think someone is working on it this weekend though. Hopefully he will have a solution for us to work off of by Monday.

Solaris94

I was suppose to work on the springs this weekend, but I underwent corrective surgery for my locked trigger finger on my right hand last Thursday. It was a minor outpatient procedure, so I thought I will have full use of my hand over the weekend. Wrong...! It hurts like a %*&@ when the local anesthesia wore off. And for a small one inch incision, I have to wear a full hand bandage. Since I'm a right handed almost exclusively, I couldn't do anything all weekend. I have to wait another week before I can work on the springs.

elduderino

I hope you get better soon. I jammed the index finger of my left hand playing goalkeeper in indoor soccer the other day and I couldn't install for a week or so (if indeed I ever could : )

CJams

Dammit! Chief R&D team member injured! Project delayed! Did you at least receive the parts?

Solaris94

Yes, I got all the parts and they look pretty good. I have an appointment to get the stitches out tomorrow. Then this weekend I will have the gas springs installed even if I have to hire a monkey to hold my screw driver.