what exactly is the difference? i mean in terms of technical and acoustic differences. i just bought 2 jl's with a seperate enclosure and i would like to know how ohms alter the sound and pitch of subs or even if they do at all.

 

Ohms is just a level of resistence.. You can wire speakers in different ways in order to get lower or higher final resistence levels. Think of it like the water in your house. With the water shut off, there is a lot of resistence, and not water comes out, but as you open it up a bit (decreasing the resistence), more and more water comes out (or more and more power). Amps and speakers can be paired together in different ways in order to maximize the output of the amp. Pretty simple once you start playin with it, but can be pretty intimidating at first.

As and example:
Rockford Fosgate HE2's have a few different wiring configurations.
Dual 4 ohm, and Single 4 ohm, with the same amount of POWER, the subs would sound the same. The issue is that with the same AMP, they would get different amounts of power into them, and then sound different. A 500 watt amp may put 500 watts into one speaker, but only 250 into another because the impedance was too high. Make sense? I can explain the equation or a few easy ways to determine what impedance (or final ohm count) you would get if you would like. Usually it's easier to explain in person, but I guess online should work pretty well also.

To go a bit further, and this isn't that important to most people, but as you lower the impedance of a speaker, you lower the damping factor, and in effect you can lose a bit of cone control.

 

To answer your question, the impedance doesn't effect the acoustics of the speaker.

 

i'm pretty sure i got it and thanks for the informative response. one last thing. there isn't much information on the quality of certain amplifiers and consumer reviews on them. i would like to buy one amp to power the box with 300 watts rms to each speaker. which amp on the market now has the power to do that without destroying itself in the process?

 

http://66.216.98.167/mcprod/products...?product_id=60

McIntosh MCC602TM

Watch out for your bank account...MSRP is $3500.

 

I'm not sure I understand that statement. If you're saying that different impedance doesn't change sound quality, I don't agree.


"To go a bit further, and this isn't that important to most people, but as you lower the impedance of a speaker, you lower the damping factor, and in effect you can lose a bit of cone control."

Yes, people often give up soud quality for more db. This is right, when you lower the dampening factor you tend to have more distortion (more db). Which can equal less sound quality (less accurate sound).

 

Lowering the Damping factor does not create more distortion... I don't know how you would get to that idea... If I'm wrong, please explain, but cone control and distortion are not exactly the same thing... Also, distortion does not equate to volume, or Db's. "More distortion" on top of normal music would make sense in more db, but the goal of the system is to keep distortion out. Lowering the damping factor does lower cone control, it's fact, just the way it is. Now knowing this, drivers can be built around this to minimize the difference in sound you could hear. In most subs, it's barely noticeable, if noticeable at all. When building a system, that is the last of your worries.....

 

"Lowering the Dampening factor does not create more distortion..."

It doesn' t create it, this type of distortion is the result of the inablity of the speaker to keep up with the amp. The distortion is from aberrant cone movement, which can raise the volume level(db).

 

Are you saying that a 4 ohm driver with 1 watt of power, will not be as loud as a 2 ohm driver with 1 watt of power, because there is more distortion in a 2 ohm driver? The "aberrant" cone movement you speak of will not raise the Db level an noticeable bit, and as a matter of fact, it can even lower the db level.

What do you mean by the "inability of the speaker to keep up with the amp?"

Are you saying that too much power results in more "aberrant" cone movement, and therefore more distortion, meaning a louder sub?

 

you guys confused the newbies even more now

 

1. Yes.

2. Ok, what is dampening factor?

3. Yes.

Have you ever listened to an audiophile quality system? You ever noticed that after a certain volume level, it doesn't get louder. The only way to get it louder is to either add speakers or turn up the gain on the amp (a no- no if you want to keep the distortion down). It gets louder because you are turning up the distortion, causing aberrant cone movement. The aberrant cone movement results in more db.

Have you ever noticed the specs that amp manufactures display with their amps. You ever noticed that running an amp at 2ohms as opposed to 4ohms results in more watts, but more total harmonic distortion (THD)? And also they warn people about heat with a 2ohm load? Heat equals inefficiency in electronics.

Sorry, if I'm confusing people.

 

you know what. i actually think i'm getting this. you can get more power with a 2 ohm setup because of the amount of resistance would not be as high as a 4 ohm setup. only thing is that if the 2 ohm setup can't handle the amount of added strain, it will result in more distortion through the speakers. i suppose any speaker rated for 2 ohms has a stonger cone base? is heat is a factor i know, but should i insist on getting an amp with a interior coolant fan? are their benifits of running a system on 2 ohms because it sounds as if the disadvantages highly outway the advantages. if i'm getting this wrong here let me know because i think i got it now. thanks again for the info.

 

"you can get more power with a 2 ohm setup because of the amount of resistance would not be as high as a 4 ohm setup."

Almost. There is more power with 2ohm load because the resistance is higher than the resistance of a 4ohm load.

My General rule:
If you want a loud system wire it up with a 2ohm load. (You can achieve that "one block away" bass).

If you want a "crystal clear" system wire it up with a 4ohm load. (You can hear Natalie Merchant take a breath between her vocals)

Exceptions: If you want more boom from your subs wire it with a 2ohm load. As stated above distortion from low freq. drivers are harder to hear, so some find it an advantage to wire it this way.

 

STOP TYPING!!!!!

Not to be rude, but people that think they know, but have no training, should not type (Wingman)....

"Almost. There is more power with a 2 ohm load because the resistence is higher than a 4 ohm load."

WHAT?!?! No. Resistance is lower, and therefore there is more power. Some amps are built in order to handle 2 ohm loads, and others are not. All amps are not created equal.

Wingman, stop using terminology that you do not understand. Abberant cone movement is used in terms of non-linear response. Try reading the Loudspeaker Cookbook, hopefully it will make sense to you. I know that I am going to come off very rude in this post, but it is really frustrating for me to watch people preach about things they don't understand. Then people say they think they get it, but they're being taught by someone that doesn't know!

I have been involved in Highend-Audio for quite some time now and because of my passion for it I work at the Most Award Winning Audio/Video dealer in the country. I've listened to $250,000 home systems, and been in cars with $80,000 systems. I've helped adjust a car that was in the IASCA world finals, so yes I have heard an audiophile system before. On things that are controversial, I keep my mouth shut a bit, and everyone can have their opinion, but not on things like this that are fact!

As an example, a really bad example, but it should help you understand. If I buy a car with a V6, and you buy the same car with a V8, but I build my engine up so that I have the same amount of hp as you do, assuming that the only difference between the cars is engine size (weight, torque, power curve, traction, driver, everything, I realize this is unrealistic, but stay with me), which car is faster.... The only difference is V6 vs. V8, everything else is the same.... They are the same... Neither is faster.... If you have a speaker that only has 1 watt of power, and the speaker is 4 ohms, and another speaker, with 1 watt of power, but the speaker is 2 ohms, which is louder? Niether, they both have 1 watt!!!!!

Now I'm talking about 1 watt into each with different amplifiers, one designed to put out 1 watt at 4 ohms, the other 1 watt at 2 ohms.... If this makes sense to you, then you'll realize that two speakers, for instance, Diamond Audio M610's come in both dual 2 ohm, and dual 4 ohm configurations.... Which is louder with 200 watts? Neither! The speakers sound the same with the same amount of power to each. They do it in order to allow for more flexible wiring so that you can get more power out of your amplifier, and wire multiple speakers in safely. For instance, if you had an Xtant X1001 that puts out 1000 watts at 2 ohms, but only 500 watts at 4 ohms, you could get the right wiring with your subs in order to get the 1000 watts out of the amp. Make sense....

Now, as far as the non-linear, "aberrant," motion of a speaker causing distortion.... Sure, I won't argue too much with that, but it will not always raise the volume of a system, it can lower the output, and as a matter of fact, it can kill your sub. Now, I said that it will not always raise the volume of your system, and this is in real world application. It can raise and lower, but the end result is that your sound can be somewhat distorted, but not louder because of it. Wingman talks about how Audiophile systems just don't get any louder at a certain point, but that's my point!!! The distortion doesn't make it louder! It makes it sound bad!

Does anyone have any questions? comments? I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't like it when people try to help, and they are only hurting the cause, or feeding people with incorrect information. I'll reread this in a bit, so I hope I wrote in complete sentences....

By the way Wingman, I could set up a demo for you to tell the difference between a 4 ohm load and a 2 ohm... With the same driver, the difference in dampening factor is so minimal that you'd need a scope to see it, because you couldn't hear it. If you think you can hear it, you're fooling yourself (pyschoacoustics), you could win $10,000....

 

i don't know what is goin on, but PROPS to typing all that

 

Kyle Watson.

Glad to yank your chain.

 

You may be yankin my chain, but you're screwing everyone else in the forum up.......... You're one of the reasons that people can't get solid information on the internet.

 

What is a forum?

If I'm wrong educate me. You rant about people having or obtaining the wrong info. and passing it on to others. Hey step back and look at yourself. Your examples are terrible. It appears that you pulled them from a book. Every time someone gives another example (counter or for) you get mad. Obvioulsy your examples were not clear.

Just ask yourself... are you educating people or are you patting yourself on the back? If we all knew what you (think you) know... why should there even be a forum? We would all have the same knowledge, right? How are we supposed to learn?

I'd like to ask everyone, I'm screwing everyone up?
Or am I asking or causing you to explain further (make more clear)?

 

well, you're screwing us up basically. i'm the one who asked the question and i personally don't appreciate you acting as if you know what you are talking about. if the bottom line is you are wrong, what sense is it trying to put focus on something that has nothing to do with the problem? fact is you don't know what you are talking about and kyle does. whether or not a forum entitles you to speak falsly about topics isn't whats being debated here. who gave you the right to "pat yourself on the back" is. i'm just happy someone who actually knew what they were talking about answered my question instead of you. thanks for the input kyle. thanks for nothing wingman

 

"What is a Forum?" A place for people to discuss topics and get information. The problem is that you type like you know, not, I'm pretty sure this is the answer, or I've always been told.

I am educating you. My examples are horrible, but I can't draw out the diagrams here to show you, nor can I give you instant feedback on your observations. If you all did know "what I think I know" you would have responded correctly, not guessing. I'm not typing this all out to pat myself on the back, if I could replay to these as a guest, i would, but I had to register, so I did, by the way, Watson is not my real last name. The issue here is that someone is trying to get an answer, and you just shoot out a response, hoping its right, but you could have wasted lots of dets money by acting as if you knew. We're not talking about an issue like what's your favorite amp? You could have made someone spend a couple hundred bucks in the wrong place, and you debated about it like you were right and knew all there is to know about ohms. That is the main reason I don't even like posting in forums, but its also a reason that makes it important for me to do so. I don't post about how to pull door panels off, and where exactly the hole in the firewall should go, but I do post on things I know about, and maybe you should do things the same way. Just read the posts you don't know about, don't post on them trying to get your total post number up.

Dets, do you have any more questions about things, or can I clear some things up? I can do my best to provide examples that don't suck, and no, none of my examples came from a book, I'll try to make a few more up if need be.

 

Okay, point taken.

I apologize to "KyleWatson", "dets", and anyone else I may have misled.

I'm not being sarcastic either.

 

kyle, you've been nothing other than accurate and informative when answering my question. i appreciate all the help and attention you've given me and if anyone in the forum asks the same question i just asked then i'll know exactly the right thread to send them to. as for wingman, thanks for acknowledging why we even responded like that.

 

Kyle - What kind of gear do you have in your car? What would you recommend for a person who seeks accuracy over sheer volume?

 

In my 67 Mustang I have a Diamond Audio setup that isn't available any more, but it sounds great, but lacks a little on the low end. It has 8, 5 and tweet (DA8.6's under the dash, and S500s in kick pods), and an Xtant 604.

The deck is an Alpine CDA7998, and it sounds great with the engine off, and with it running, it's definately loud enough to keep up.

Basically I would recommend checking out Focal Speakers if money is not an issue, I'd also look at Boston Pro 3 ways as well as their Z series (which is what I have for my Accord, but not installed yet). As far as subs go, if you can get a hold of a Diamond Audio MacDaddy sub, I've never heard a sub play more musically then that, but they are out of production. Keep the system as simple as possible, maybe just a great set of fronts, and a sub, what type of things do you like so far? What type of music do you listen too? Do you like a lot of treble or bight highs? Are you against custom labor?

 

I am not at all against custom work, but I am going to be quite picky in terms of who I will let do the work. Been too trusting and screwed too many times.

My musical taste is rock and classical. But I listen to country and blues alot. So my taste is quite varied. I've been on a disco kick lately, which is why I am so irritated by the stock system.

I have found it to be too bright. I find that I really can't listen to my CDs on long drives because fatigue sets in so quickly.

The absence of bass continues to shock me. It really came home the other day when I was listening to "Emotional Rescue." I could barely make out the bass pedal.

Like I say, the stock system has become more of an irritant than anything else, and I really really want to upgrade to something that will please me. I'm not sure what is a reasonable price, but I do have a figure in mind for what I could spend.

Back to bass: this disco phase has really taught me to appreciate bass more and more. It has to be fast and articulate, but also "felt." It isn't an "Oh-my-God-now-that's-bass" revelation, but something quite natural -- as opposed to raw SPL, &c. I feel like an ass for writing my descriptions like that, but I can't think of a better way to put it.

As far as SW go, I am leaning towards the Brahma 12". It appears to be a solid buy. My fisrst concern, though, is making sure I will have adequate power for the system. I am considering an alternator and re-wiring with 4 Ga. wire. But I am truly unsure whether this is necessary. I would rather spend that money on better gear. Simple really is best!

 

for one 12? i don't think you're going to need to add any more power in order to supply that. just make sure to hook up the remote wire to the head unit so that when the car powers off so does the amp. you'd be surprise how many people forget to do that.

 

Good stuff Kyle!
I'm an audiophile myself and agree with everything you said but would like to add that using speakers with higher sensitivity can significantly increase a systems ability to produce more output.
Or you you can use a less powerful amp to achieve the same output but either way it can allow for more flexibility in a given system.
There are so many variables, like the proper size for an enclosure for a specific sub, which many people overlook.
My ADS is a perfect example of an amp that belies it's power ratings. My JL has a regulated power supply which many amps lack, as it's power output isn't subject to voltage swings the way other amps are. Power output is cosistent regardless of the voltage.
My Boston Pro .5 series has been bulletproof thusfar.
They are also very efficient at about 96 db.
Careful system matching is very important when taking all of these factors into consideration.
Think about what you want the system to achieve musically and build from there.
I wanted to have an accurate system, so that's what I built, you may have other needs.