Will the Plane Take-Off - Merged with MythBusters Show Thread
10-22-2007, 02:20 PM
#442
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Originally Posted by bent09
Put me down for the no fly side.
Some smart military guy would have figured it out long ago and made air craft carriers smaller.
Besides I keep imagining a plane on a treadmill and then *voooooom* it is up in the air :rolf:
Some smart military guy would have figured it out long ago and made air craft carriers smaller.
Besides I keep imagining a plane on a treadmill and then *voooooom* it is up in the air :rolf:
10-22-2007, 02:21 PM
#443
Go Giants
Originally Posted by cibs
You are correct. but that's because your legs put force down through your legs to move your forwards. Much like a car puts force DOWN to the ground through its wheels to move you forward...
Planes however do not put force DOWN through their wheels they push force out through their engines.
A planes wheels are only there so that it minimizes friction between the plane and the ground. Not to make it move forwards.
You cannot compare a plane to a car in a situation like this. You'd have to compare something that has a 'thrust force' found somewhere OTHER than the ground.
i.e. a helicopter on a platform that is falling as fast as it's blades are creating lift
Just like when you exercise on a stepping machine, you are exerting force to step up at the same time as the step is coming down, you go nowhere yet you just climbed 1000 stairs.
Put a jetpack on you back and all of a sudden that's no longer an issue.
Planes however do not put force DOWN through their wheels they push force out through their engines.
A planes wheels are only there so that it minimizes friction between the plane and the ground. Not to make it move forwards.
You cannot compare a plane to a car in a situation like this. You'd have to compare something that has a 'thrust force' found somewhere OTHER than the ground.
i.e. a helicopter on a platform that is falling as fast as it's blades are creating lift
Just like when you exercise on a stepping machine, you are exerting force to step up at the same time as the step is coming down, you go nowhere yet you just climbed 1000 stairs.
Put a jetpack on you back and all of a sudden that's no longer an issue.
10-22-2007, 02:22 PM
#445
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
If I was sitting on a unicycle wheel on the treadmill, with a jetpack on my back, I still would not feel any wind on my hair...Unless it was windy out.
What if you had a jetpack on your back and you were on rollerskates or rollerblades on a treadmill.
would you still remain stationary? no way.
10-22-2007, 02:23 PM
#446
Go Giants
Originally Posted by Smalls
The argument is that the plane will overcome the treadmill and move forward at enough speed to create the air necessary for lift off.
10-22-2007, 02:24 PM
#447
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Originally Posted by Smalls
The argument is that the plane will overcome the treadmill and move forward at enough speed to create the wind necessary for lift off.
10-22-2007, 02:25 PM
#449
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by AQUI NO!
How? isn't the thread mill supposed to match the thrust of the plane so it remains still? If the plane is moving forward relative to space, it will eventually reach fixed ground and shoot off at whatever rate of speed it was moving on the threadmill, only then will it achieve flight
I think people need to realize that planes do not have a 5,000 hp engine connected to its wheels via a driveshaft that turns its wheels--like a car--to give it the forward movement it needs to generate enough lift to achieve flight. The wheel are there to reduce friction, thereby reducing the amount of thrust needed to achieve forward movement necessary for flight.
Last edited by levon1830; 10-22-2007 at 02:28 PM.
10-22-2007, 02:26 PM
#451
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OK... what about the RC car on the treadmill in neutral with the hand pushing it, or the skateboard with the rope pulling it examples don't explain the situation here????
10-22-2007, 02:26 PM
#452
Go Giants
Originally Posted by cibs
sure you would, you'd blow off the treadmill into the wall infront of you.
What if you had a jetpack on your back and you were on rollerskates or rollerblades on a treadmill.
would you still remain stationary? no way.
What if you had a jetpack on your back and you were on rollerskates or rollerblades on a treadmill.
would you still remain stationary? no way.
10-22-2007, 02:29 PM
#454
Go Giants
Originally Posted by cibs
but the plane is moving...
lol
lol
10-22-2007, 02:29 PM
#455
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Originally Posted by bent09
What if we reversed it? If a plane flies over a treadmill moving at the same rate as the wheels of the plane does it automatically land? 
According to the theory that it would NOT take off then, wouldn't a plane stop dead in its tracks? if it's moving at 800mph (we don't need to talk about flying it's an extra right now) that encounters a conveyor moving at 800mph the other direction??
That simply would not happen.
10-22-2007, 02:30 PM
#456
Insert Sarcasm Here
Originally Posted by Whiskers
Are you saying that the plane only stays on the treadmill for a second or two, then goes off it?
you're thinking of a short treadmill, think of a LONG treadmill. the plane is still moving .
10-22-2007, 02:31 PM
#457
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Whiskers
Doesn't matter in this case...The treadmill + wheels are keeping the plane stationary...If you took away the wheels, the plane would move forward and take off....In this case, it doesn't matter that the wheels are not causing the plane to move it's moving forward against something that is keeping it back which = no forward movement....Plane does not take off..
Originally Posted by cibs
It doesn't have to get off the treadmill...
you are assuming that the speed of the wheels turning = the real speed of the plane in space.
that simply isn't true.
does the thrust of the plane have anything to do with the treadmill that's moving underneath it? NO.
The planes engines are pushing huge masses of air behind it to move the airplane forwards relative to the atmosphere on earth.
The conveyor belt is simply making the wheels turn more than they would ordinarily.
you are assuming that the speed of the wheels turning = the real speed of the plane in space.
that simply isn't true.
does the thrust of the plane have anything to do with the treadmill that's moving underneath it? NO.
The planes engines are pushing huge masses of air behind it to move the airplane forwards relative to the atmosphere on earth.
The conveyor belt is simply making the wheels turn more than they would ordinarily.
10-22-2007, 02:32 PM
#458
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Originally Posted by Whiskers
Are you saying that the plane only stays on the treadmill for a second or two, then goes off it?
No.
Like levon said on the last page the treadmill could be infinitely long.
How about this example...
if you stand still on a treadmill and you're on your rollerskates. Turn the treadmill on and you'll fly off the back right?
now stand still on the treadmill on your rollerskates and hold on to the handlebar infront of you, and turn it on.... so the treadmill is moving backwards... your wheels are spinning but do you still fall off?
How about if you use your hands to pull you closer to the front of the treadmill will you move forwards?
Same thing with the plane. The energy that's pushing it forwards is unrelated to the ground 'moving' beneath it.
10-22-2007, 02:33 PM
#459
I shoot people
the way I see it is... when I'm running on a treadmill... I don't get that "wind the face" sensation like I would if I was running outside... But if you placed a fan in front of me then it changes everything
10-22-2007, 02:35 PM
#460
Three Wheelin'
Another good quote in bold text:
Originally Posted by cibs
...The energy that's pushing it (the plane) forwards is unrelated to the ground 'moving' beneath it.
10-22-2007, 02:37 PM
#461
Insert Sarcasm Here
We're not saying it would lift off from one dead spot. The belief is that the plane would still move down the runway (treadmill) at high speeds, enough to create the lift on the wings.
10-22-2007, 02:46 PM
#462
How is the plane moving?
Put it this way. Lets say you were going to do a long jump and you started on a treadmill. You run 12 miles per hour on said treadmill and jump. You are going to go as far as you would jump if you were standing still.
The planes not moving if the ground is pushing it the other way. The only way it could take off is if it had powerful enough jets to take off from a standstill.
Like whiskers said do you feel wind hitting your face when you are running.
You guys should all go kill yourself right now! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!
Put it this way. Lets say you were going to do a long jump and you started on a treadmill. You run 12 miles per hour on said treadmill and jump. You are going to go as far as you would jump if you were standing still.
The planes not moving if the ground is pushing it the other way. The only way it could take off is if it had powerful enough jets to take off from a standstill.
Like whiskers said do you feel wind hitting your face when you are running.
You guys should all go kill yourself right now! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!
10-22-2007, 02:47 PM
#463
Originally Posted by Smalls
We're not saying it would lift off from one dead spot. The belief is that the plane would still move down the runway (treadmill) at high speeds, enough to create the lift on the wings.
If I put a treadmill under your feet that went just as fast as you walk...are you going to go anywhere? No.
10-22-2007, 02:50 PM
#464
I shoot people
someone make this a poll... (I vote NO, will not fly... IF there is NO big giant fan involved in the experiment).
10-22-2007, 02:53 PM
#465
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by JJ4Short
How is the plane moving?
Put it this way. Lets say you were going to do a long jump and you started on a treadmill. You run 12 miles per hour on said treadmill and jump. You are going to go as far as you would jump if you were standing still.
The planes not moving if the ground is pushing it the other way. The only way it could take off is if it had powerful enough jets to take off from a standstill.
Like whiskers said do you feel wind hitting your face when you are running.
You guys should all go kill yourself right now! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!
Put it this way. Lets say you were going to do a long jump and you started on a treadmill. You run 12 miles per hour on said treadmill and jump. You are going to go as far as you would jump if you were standing still.
The planes not moving if the ground is pushing it the other way. The only way it could take off is if it had powerful enough jets to take off from a standstill.
Like whiskers said do you feel wind hitting your face when you are running.
You guys should all go kill yourself right now! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!
Planes are not the same as people.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else (thrust) besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. You will move forward relative to your initial position when you jumped. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
Last edited by levon1830; 10-22-2007 at 02:57 PM.
10-22-2007, 02:58 PM
#466
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Originally Posted by JJ4Short
How is the plane moving?
Put it this way. Lets say you were going to do a long jump and you started on a treadmill. You run 12 miles per hour on said treadmill and jump. You are going to go as far as you would jump if you were standing still.
The planes not moving if the ground is pushing it the other way. The only way it could take off is if it had powerful enough jets to take off from a standstill.
Like whiskers said do you feel wind hitting your face when you are running.
You guys should all go kill yourself right now! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!
Put it this way. Lets say you were going to do a long jump and you started on a treadmill. You run 12 miles per hour on said treadmill and jump. You are going to go as far as you would jump if you were standing still.
The planes not moving if the ground is pushing it the other way. The only way it could take off is if it had powerful enough jets to take off from a standstill.
Like whiskers said do you feel wind hitting your face when you are running.
You guys should all go kill yourself right now! ARRRRGGHHH!!!!
\/ \/ \/ he answered it perfectly... you guys are comparing people to planes. How does that make sense?
Originally Posted by levon1830
Planes are not the same as people.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else (thrust) besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. You will move forward relative to your initial position when you jumped. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else (thrust) besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. You will move forward relative to your initial position when you jumped. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
10-22-2007, 03:00 PM
#467
Insert Sarcasm Here
Originally Posted by levon1830
Planes are not the same as people.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else (thrust) besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. You will move forward relative to your initial position when you jumped. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else (thrust) besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. You will move forward relative to your initial position when you jumped. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
Its hard to understand the difference between cars and planes. The wheels do not have thrust. They do not push the plane forward. In this case, the thrust of the engines would overcome the pull of the treadmill. The plane would move down the runway and take off.
10-22-2007, 03:03 PM
#468
Originally Posted by levon1830
Planes are not the same as people.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
Planes are not the same as cars.
People must apply their energy to the ground via their legs to achieve forward motion.
Cars must apply their energy to the ground via a driveshaft connected to the wheels, which then rely on friction between the ground and the wheels to achieve forward motion.
Planes rely on something else besides ground movement to achieve forward motion through space.
To go along with your treamill-long jump example, have someone push you in the back the moment you jump off the treadmill. That push in your back is similar to the force that thrust--via a plane's engines--applies to the plane.
The plane might start lifting because there is natural wind that might happen by but that bitch is going to plop on its belly.
UNLESS like I said the jet engines are that powerful where it could push the plain from the dead stop to take off.
10-22-2007, 03:04 PM
#469
Insert Sarcasm Here
Originally Posted by JJ4Short
Yes you are.
Originally Posted by is300eater
(I vote NO, will not fly... IF there is NO big giant fan involved in the experiment).
Originally Posted by JJ4Short
How would this work by the way? Would the plane just start floating from its standstill?
10-22-2007, 03:05 PM
#470
Originally Posted by cibs
\/ \/ \/ he answered it perfectly... you guys are comparing people to planes. How does that make sense?
A fat ass jumbo jet might get lucky too, get a big gust of wind, gun it and it falls on its belly. I doubt their jets are strong enough to lift it from a dead stop...sorry.
10-22-2007, 03:08 PM
#471
Go Giants
Originally Posted by Smalls
yes but..
you're thinking of a short treadmill, think of a LONG treadmill. the plane is still moving .
you're thinking of a short treadmill, think of a LONG treadmill. the plane is still moving .
10-22-2007, 03:08 PM
#472
Originally Posted by Smalls
The plane still moves down the runway. No need for a giant fan.
BTW who wants to put $25 bucks on this. I bet that plane will not take off on Mythbusters...I will paypal that shit to you.
10-22-2007, 03:08 PM
#473
Insert Sarcasm Here
Imagine you're standing on a health-club treadmill in rollerblades while holding a rope attached to the wall in front of you. The treadmill starts; simultaneously you begin to haul in the rope. Although you'll have to overcome some initial friction tugging you backward, in short order you'll be able to pull yourself forward easily.
10-22-2007, 03:09 PM
#474
Originally Posted by Whiskers
If the plane is going forward on a very long treadmill, then it will fly...So the arguement is now whether the plane is moving slower due to the treadmill....
I don't know why I am getting so bent up but its crazy to me!
10-22-2007, 03:10 PM
#475
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Originally Posted by JJ4Short
Ok lets get this straight are we talking about a fighter jet or a jumbo jet. Last I heard a Jumbo jet could not take off from a dead stop. Fighter jet has a much better chance because a gust of wind might pick it up and some awesome boost engaged and it takes off.
A fat ass jumbo jet might get lucky too, get a big gust of wind, gun it and it falls on its belly. I doubt their jets are strong enough to lift it from a dead stop...sorry.
A fat ass jumbo jet might get lucky too, get a big gust of wind, gun it and it falls on its belly. I doubt their jets are strong enough to lift it from a dead stop...sorry.
10-22-2007, 03:10 PM
#476
Insert Sarcasm Here
Originally Posted by Whiskers
If the plane is going forward on a very long treadmill, then it will fly...So the arguement is now whether the plane is moving slower due to the treadmill....
Well it seems that the argument is weather the plane will overcome the treadmill.
10-22-2007, 03:10 PM
#477
Originally Posted by Smalls
Imagine you're standing on a health-club treadmill in rollerblades while holding a rope attached to the wall in front of you. The treadmill starts; simultaneously you begin to haul in the rope. Although you'll have to overcome some initial friction tugging you backward, in short order you'll be able to pull yourself forward easily.
10-22-2007, 03:11 PM
#478
Go Giants
Ok, I see now and I agree on the following:
-The jets will cause the plane to move as fast as it would with or without the treadmill.
-If the treadmill was very long, it will take off of the treadmill.
-The jets will cause the plane to move as fast as it would with or without the treadmill.
-If the treadmill was very long, it will take off of the treadmill.
10-22-2007, 03:12 PM
#479
Originally Posted by Smalls
Well it seems that the argument is weather the plane will overcome the treadmill.
This conveyer has a control system that tracks the plane speed and tunes the speed of the conveyer to be exactly the same (but in opposite
direction).The question is:Will the plane take off or not?
direction).The question is:Will the plane take off or not?
10-22-2007, 03:13 PM
#480
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Originally Posted by JJ4Short
From what I read in the original post the treadmill will constantly match the planes speed so its not moving!
I don't know why I am getting so bent up but its crazy to me!
I don't know why I am getting so bent up but its crazy to me!
hahaha... ok
how are you defining speed? by how fast the wheels are turning?
because the ONLY thing the treadmill is affecting is the speed of the wheels turning.
not the speed of the being.
Like the above example of you holding on to a rope fastened to a wall while you're on a treadmill that's going 10k/hr or even 100k/hr. if you pull yourself forward you'll move... regardless of how fast the treadmill is moving underneath you